Guest User 8/8/21 Guest User 8/8/21

Freelancing 101 with Ryan Summers

Relationship building, mental health, and the art of negotiating; just three of the many topics we discussed with Ryan Summers. Ryan has worked with the likes of Guillermo Del Toro and JJ Abrams and is currently a Creative Director at School of Motion.

Q&A with Ryan Summers
Read time: 20 min

Ryan Summers:

It's hard.

It was less hard for me this time because when I was at BK Kitchen, the last year I was working by myself in two separate rooms. I had two big projects I bounced back and forth from. But when I went from working at Royale to freelancing from home for Odd Fellows, it drove me nuts. The culture was so awesome at Royale. We were playing music all the time. We were playing video games and helping each other with projects. Then all of a sudden, it was just silence. It didn’t take very long for me to be like, this is crazy. This is not normal.

Mack Garrison:

I'm trying to keep the same regimen that I had at the office. Waking up, working out, getting my coffee. Trying to keep some daily structure to it. It's such a slippery slope. Even this morning I woke up, I was like, well I'm working from home, I don't have to work out. I could just sleep a little bit longer. And that's when you start getting dangerous, man.

Ryan Summers:

You need a space that's just for work if you can. Even if it's just a desk to separate work mode. And then, you need a routine. Routine is the biggest thing.

Mack Garrison:

No, that's a really good point.

Thinking about the dash bash; about the demographics that are going to be there. I think there are a lot of people that are either just getting into freelance, rising in the freelance game, or on the precipice of starting their studio. What are some things that folks should be thinking about when they're going off on their own? I’m thinking about how it can catch you off guard when you find yourself in this lonely situation that you hadn't been in before. What are some struggles you think people should be preparing for as they go into the freelance game?

Ryan Summers:

I've been in that position, granted, not in this kind of specifically-geared environment. But the first thing is always runaway and capital. If you have to worry about having enough money in two weeks, you're not going to be your best artist or your best business person going forward. So as much as possible, I try and have that runaway figured out so that there's a safety net. But as much as the financial stuff is important, I think the psychological enemies are difficult no matter what. There are so many factors of, “I've got to learn stuff, I've got to network, I've got to decide if I want to just be a great animator or move into art directing.”

But then when you compile that with freelance or trying to get into a place and then chasing bookings and payment, that's going to be more complicated right now. I think that the best thing I can tell people is to try to create an ad hoc mastermind group for themselves. I know there are lots of buzzwords going around, but if there's a way to try to create some sense of community, even while you're working at home; a shared group of people like you would have in an office where you build relationships...I hate the word networking, but building relationships in this day and age is so important. So that every morning you have somebody to spot check and be like, "Dude, are you a red light right now, or are you a green light? Are you feeling good? Awful?"

Ryan Summers:

What happens is, you'll talk to people online and you lose tone. People right now want to put a good spin on everything and be positive. But if you start seeing people every day or every two days, just visually looking at each other, you know when someone says something but there's something else behind what they’re saying. It's really important to start building those relationships now as freelancers.

You might be stressed out and not even realize it, but if you have somebody else who can be like, "dude, something's up. What's going on?" They can kind of push. Whereas, when you're just sitting at home in your room trying to go down and trying to get work done, it's easy to push way too fast, way too far.

Mack Garrison:

That's a really good point. I remember before starting dash, I worked for an agency for about four and a half years here in North Carolina. I don't think you realize how isolated you become. It's really interesting talking about finding that group of people and just having someone to check in on you to make sure that you're doing okay. That you're not pulling your hair out every day, because you start to lose track of time, and things blend. You're working all the time because the work is right there at home. It's a slippery slope that can get dangerous quickly if you're not cognizant of that.

I also remember some of the pains that go with freelance. What you alluded to earlier was chasing money and trying to get paid. I don't know why this industry is so challenging with that, it's still an issue. Part of it is also, as people get older, we're more cognizant of that. Making sure I don’t forget where I was as a freelancer and how frustrating it was to get paid, so not doing the same thing that other folks did to me.

Mack Garrison:

As far as just tips and tricks, what’s something that may be useful, whether it is for a studio or a freelancer when it comes to getting paid? If the client's not paying you, do you have a protocol?

Ryan Summers:

I end up using this word too much because it means different things for different scenarios. But, it's going back to that relationship. I do open office hours where people can come in to talk. A lot of times we just talk about demo reels or freelance life. I'm always surprised by how many people don’t establish relationships. For example, your first interaction with a client. When you’d walk up to someone - before COVID - you'd shake their hand. That first meeting sets the tone for the relationship going forward. I'm shocked by how many people don't have contracts or deal memos with a list of working requirements. They’ll establish the relationship almost as if they're doing a favor for a buddy versus entering into a work agreement.

So, when you start a relationship - let's say somebody wants to work at dash - you’d say, "Hey, dash wants to bring you in for freelance." The person should immediately reply with, "well, here's my deal memo. My understanding is that you're booking me for two weeks with the option of holding me for two more weeks. This is my daily rate. This is my after-hours overtime rate," with the definition of what is considered overtime. If you don't have your full understanding and expectations set up at the beginning, it's really hard to circle back and say “okay, will you promise me you are going to do this?” I'm shocked by how many people fumble the ball for themselves. Whether they're new to it, they're naive, they're intimidated, or it's a big client that they don't want to start on a bad relationship with. Treat your first interaction with anyone you may be working for or working with as a business relationship. Then, everything else is easier.

*Style frame from “GOOGLE: Meet Data.” Animated by Ryan Summers.*

Mack Garrison:

So, I think back to when we started dash as partners, Cory and I. We were best friends going into it. We had known each other for four and a half years and were so excited. We still went to a lawyer and got an operational agreement done. Everything was great then, but introducing a business when you're going off together in a partnership can have so many wildcards. Luckily we haven't had anything happen, but having that contract upfront is preparing you should things go south. Of course, the expectation is that it won't, but it gives you something to lean on.

Another thing, I remember being shocked that contracts were negotiable. One time our lawyer was like, "Hey, you could push back on this." And I was like, "really? I just assumed that it was boilerplate, when someone sends you the contract it is what it is."

Ryan Summers:

Absolutely. I'm so glad you say that coming from the studio-side because I think that's rare to hear. I tell people all the time, whether you're negotiating for freelance or negotiating for a staff position, 1.) Everything's negotiable, and 2.) There are a lot of things to consider; you have so many more arrows in your quiver than you realize. It's not just your day rate or your yearly salary. There are other things and tools you have at your advantage so that you're not being leveraged up. Right off the bat, in your contract, you can state that if this project doesn't work out, I would love it if you would try to book me on another job, but if you can’t find anything, release me with my kill fee. Or, it's just you let go of me immediately, so I could go find another booking.

I find so few people run into those situations, I know people who don't use the hold system. You may not get as many offers for bookings, but I know talented freelance illustrators and motion designers that would say, “book me or not, I don't want to play the hold game.” On the flip side, I know others that are like, “man, I've got three holds and none of them booked and now I'm looking at nothing on Monday. I'm going to have to eat this week. Trying to find more work.”

Mack Garrison:

That's a really good comment that you brought there. One of the things that I’d recognized when we initially started hiring freelancers outside of our internal staff, particularly down here in the South, people were just wanting to get hired or not. There wasn't a hold system. We only encountered that when we started getting involved with New York, LA, Chicago. Do you feel it’s more common in smaller or bigger markets?

Ryan Summers:

There are positives and negatives to the hold system. The big thing you have to remember as a freelancer is that you are entering into partnerships with companies that need temporary work. As much as everyone's pushing the freelance manifesto, that it is the one true way to work. It gives you so much more leverage being in temporary work-for-hire situations. When that goes away, they're never indebted to you. In my experiences, the hold system is different if you're talking about the three markets; the Midwest - Chicago for example - New York, and LA. They all have slightly different variations of the system. However, every shop seems to lightly honor it, which is again, completely informal, non-legally binding, and arbitrary.

It’s really confusing and, unfortunately, aimed more towards the person doing the hiring versus the hiree. But as I said, you don't have to follow that. If a company needs style frames done and you're an amazing artist or a great illustrator, they can book you. And maybe they only book you for two days to kind of "hold you." But they have the money to do that. They have the means. It's neat that you said you’ve never encountered it until you started pulling people.

“motionographer awards and ceremonies are not just about highlighting who is the best. they’re to show people that our work exists beyond being used as marketing material for a client.”

Mack Garrison:

Exactly. It's like it's the disparity, and the system itself highlights how broken it is. When there's no consistency and no one's operating in the same sort of game or playing field, it sheds light on the fact that it's not great. The thing that I don't like about it, which you also alluded to, is that it benefits the studio.

That's terrible, there should be more repercussions for a studio if they’re just willy-nilly throwing around someone else's schedule like that. Which is one of the reasons when we first started that we didn't operate on holds a lot. We’d just approach people when we were ready to book. Now, we come into problems with that too. If you're reaching out to someone to book them a week and a half out from when they're supposed to start, a lot of top talent will already be booked up. But the good news is, at least we started to hopefully build a reputation that when we do reach out, we’re serious about the work, it wasn't something frivolous. I think it'd be better if the whole industry started operating like that.

Ryan Summers:

As I said, these are all relationships, they need to be built around trust. As long as someone has a relationship with you and they trust you, you can accept the hold system for what it might be. But when you start dealing with a situation where a studio starts spam holding multiple people for a job that may not come because they're pitching, then there's this epidemic of getting held and released with no penalty. For the freelancers, however, there are.

The leverage is in the artist's hands. They just don't realize it. It doesn't take freelancers that much to get a hold of the client they may be working with. And we're all working with the same software, we're all working with the same hardware. If you're working in CG, you're probably putting your stuff up on the same rendering service. Now there's no real magic into how this stuff gets done anymore, other than the people. So, it's a dangerous time for studios that abuse a hold system or believe freelancers are just interchangeable cogs in the machine because the shops are going to be perceived that way pretty soon once it’s realized that the people drive it all.

Mack Garrison:

That’s a great point. And it's something that we've been having internal conversations about as well. If you look at the industry as the whole, it's pinching, right? On the top end, you have the clients that would typically go to agencies for full turnkey creative help; website, branding, motion, whatever. But now those in-house teams are getting better. They're starting to hire motion designers, ultimately they just don't need as much work. What that means is that instead of going to the agency for everything, they're going to go directly to the studio for the motion work. All of a sudden, you find studios like Dash that are now competing with smaller agencies for the same type of work.

But then as you alluded to on the bottom end, freelancers are also getting better. So now, some of the bottom projects that we still take on are being taken by freelancers. So, you're getting this tension in the industry. And to your point, I think it's okay NOW because there's plenty of work going around, but it makes you wonder what the future of this industry is going to look like. Is it the smaller studio shops and freelancers that are going to flourish? Is there a world where the bigger agencies still exist? I don't know. What are your thoughts when you think about the future of motion design?

Ryan Summers:

I'm super excited about it. I know that's a weird thing to say right now, but I think there's one additional factor to what we're talking about. A traditional, large motion design shop, especially the agencies, is not only getting attacks from the top and the bottom, but they're also getting stretched out in the middle. Because as an agency, they're full service; they do everything short of ad buying, which is kind of like the mystery box of our world. But as you said, a studio has a team full of people so that they don't have to go out to a large motion shop. They don't trust the large agencies as much as they used to, but the agencies themselves are getting gutted out from the inside. We know where peoples’ eyeballs are and we know how to attract their eyeballs in terms of commercials or whatever you may be doing. However, they don't understand social media. The landscape is changing so fast. Agencies don’t understand advertising.

Ryan Summers:

Because of the eyeball shift to streaming and social media, every six months there's a new service. TikTok is it now, it used to be YouTube. Agencies can't see bumpers, so they're losing their authority. They're getting their lunch handed to them on what used to be an easy way to make money because they don't know where to go to even advertise.

It's a really scary time for them, but it's a huge opportunity for us because we speak that language. There are a lot more people working in motion design that are closer to the target audiences and know what to make for them. So, there's an incredible opportunity to create trust now from the people making it to the people who need it. At the same time, the amount - I don't call them screens anymore - but the number of canvases available to us, is big and only getting bigger. It's going to skyrocket in the next four to five years. Places that our work is going to live and need our kind of agency, our understanding is going to just skyrocket. So I think it's an awesome, but difficult, time while we're trying to figure it out. The opportunities are huge.

“this is the one creative arts industry that I can think of where we put so much time into the work, but the amount of time that the work exists is negligible.”

Mack Garrison:

You bring a really good point on the medium and how motion design lives in the world. I think for a while it's been relatively consistent on what the programs you need to know are to generate the content. Whether it's Maya, Cinema 4D, After Effects, whatever. But we're on the precipice of all this new technology. There’s this perpetual learning that you need to do. A lot of people have preached about being good at one specific thing while the jack of all trades-type person, the generalist, is kind of dying. But I see that coming back because of all the new technology that's coming out. I think the success of a future motion designer is someone that is flexible and can be an avid, nimble learner when trying to adapt to these new things.

“there are just enough people now who've been in our industry that are either desperate for a community or they’re looking for the next step. people want to see their work recognized.”

Ryan Summers:

I agree. Motion design used to mean it was the umbrella for anything that moved, right? So it meant photography, it meant still frame, it meant videography. It meant knowing typography. It meant knowing hand skills, collage, 2D animation, 3D animation. And no one ever expected anyone to know all of those things. That's why teams were so interesting, and that's why each studio had a specific signature. You would go to Digital Kitchen because they had this very cinematographic style, but it wasn't very graphics-oriented, it was editorial. Or you’d go to Imaginary Forces for another look. Then there might be two or three studios that did high-end 3D, but they wouldn't be the people you'd go to for 2D animation. Now, everything has solidified around, “it's going to be done in After Effects, it's going to be done in Cinema 4D if it's character animation, there are two styles of character animation if it's CG, it's going to look like it came out of Red Ship.”

Having constricted to a really specific definition of animation, to now exploding back into what it used to be; where motion design is the overarching umbrella, where you can do anything to make anything move. The tools that were inaccessible in the 90s and the early 2000s now everyone has access to. Not just software, but access to cameras in a way we never had access to before. You can work with editors in a way you never used to be able to before. That's why I always talk about voice and vision being as important as your established relationships and the hardware or software that you use. That being said, I do think there's going to be a demand for people who have a specific way of seeing things or a specific way of making things look.

Mack Garrison:

That's a really good point. I've even been guilty of it myself. You get that project request that comes in and it's a certain type of client. For us, we deal with a lot of IT stuff. So it's like, okay, here are some examples of other videos that have been made, that probably fall into exactly what this should be. Right? And it's a safe play. I think what ends up happening is a cycle effect where someone comes up with a style. That style gets recycled around by everyone in the industry. People like it, so we keep pushing it forward. It's safe.

What ends up happening is when we're looking for inspiration, we tend to look only at what other videos are being made. What the top people are making right now. So limiting, right? So, there's not that much diversity in the variety of work that’s being made. Whereas I felt like to your point in the 90s when people were still experimenting, there wasn't a right way because there was so much still left to figure out. Work was constantly being evolved. That's what I am excited about with this technology growth. Hopefully, it will break us away from this reuse cycle.

*Style frame from “Pokemon — BREAKTHROUGH.” Animated by Ryan Summers.*

Mack Garrison:

What advice would you give for someone trying to push away from having a set style? What are some things folks should be doing to try to push that innovation?

Ryan Summers:

I think the bottom line is just allowing yourself to do it. Maybe this is me being too personal, but actively allowing yourself to realize that in this career, it's okay to be a capital-A artist. I don't think there are a lot of people who feel like they've been permitted to say that. Some people are like, "Oh, I work in cinema," or, "I'm an after effects animator." But I don't think most spend their days thinking about, "Oh, I want to say this about the world," or "I'm interested in this look that I found from this photographer from the 60s, how can I take that and work with that methodology in Redshift, or 3D?"

For example, most people in 3D right now over-light everything. It's the same thing that used to happen in early CD animation for feature films where people were like, “I have to build all this stuff, then I have to texture everything, and then I have to light it so that when I light it I need to show everything that I made, because otherwise, why would I ever have made all that stuff?” And it wasn't until someone like Roger Deacon came into feature animation and asked why everything is over-lighted? If you're doing this in a feature film, you would only put the light where you want people to look. You had only used lighting to make people feel a certain way. All of a sudden with "How To Train Your Dragon" and "Wally" and the many films after that, by bringing in real-world cinematographers, people started using the tools in a way that allowed them to portray the emotions that they wanted to express.

Ryan Summers:

That's just one example, but it was because people who were looking for software-based solutions finally allowed the art to creep back in. That's the first step to all of it, right? You talked about the echo chamber, and the inspiration paralysis right now. There's so much going on and we're all responding to the same thing. For example, I’ll ask another designer who they like, and if somebody says, "Oh man, I love Ash Thorp." I'm like, "Okay, cool. Do you know why Ash Thorp is Ash Thorp? Go back and look at the three people he was inspired by and find out who those people were working with."

Ash Thorp loves Katsuhiro Otomo, the guy who created Akira. So go find other people that inspired Otomo. He loved Stanley Kubrick. Find out who Stanley Kubrick's cinematographer was and find out who those people started with and look back. Being able to present full references that no one else has, that's liberating. That's exciting. And it gives you an advantage.

Mack Garrison:

You're touching on something that has become a bit lost; the whole research side of things. It's a constant balance between art and design. We design something for someone for a purpose...to get them to like it. At the same time, the art is an evolution of what we would like. It has been a mix of different styles, with different periods over the years. I think, as opposed to some traditional mediums where people would study various periods and have that art history knowledge to build off of, a lot of what we do is being condensed to a week, a few days, or a 24-hour period to come up with an idea for a piece.

Rather than looking back in a nontraditional way of research for what could be done or looking back at periods that can echo a client’s sentiment for something, we go to Vimeo and we look at what's on there. One of the things that we should advocate for now is more education in some of the art periods themselves. Look back in history to what you're talking about. Who are other people inspired by, what was their history, what were they inspired by about that history?

Ryan Summers:

And that's why I think, allowing yourself to say, “I'm an artist,” means that even if you did...let's say Dash gets some call tomorrow from Marvel for their next movie, like "Black Panther 2."

Mack Garrison:

Yeah, sign me up.

Ryan Summers:

Sure. Right? But the problem is you have to have the pitch in by Friday. Or, let's say Monday because we have a weekend. If you aren't thinking like an artist and you don't have interests outside of motion design, the only thing you can do in that amount of time is two things. Either A, "What do I know that the software can give me right now and solve for that?" Or B, "What do I know everybody else is doing that I know somebody else has made so I can figure out how to do it? And let's do a variant of that.”

Ryan Summers:

But if you’re thinking as an artist, the time that you've spent to create a pitch, the time needed to show what you're inspired by, isn't based on the time you're given when initially assigned the project. It's based on how long you’ve spent thinking for the last seven years about things that interest you; things that you love, things that you don't know anything about but catch your eye. So if you think as an artist, you're always thinking about these things. Even if you are only given a two-day turnaround, the artist who was like, "You know what, I love macro photography, but I also love textiles and fashion. And you know what else? There's something interesting about AR in terms of how people interact with technology."

So, all of a sudden when a client says, "We need a teacher that looks like it's influenced by alien technology and we need it in two days," you have a wealth of ideas to pull from. Allow yourself to be an artist. All commercial artists still have personal projects that they want to do, and that's what feeds into the work they do when hired by others. Then, the for-hire work hopefully gives them enough money and time to be able to go and reinvest that back into a personal project. We've been so detached from that. People are being taught that deeming yourself an artist or saying that you have personal projects, is like a dirty word. You're being selfish or you're taking money away from your company and I believe that couldn't be further from the truth.

“the bottom line is just allowing yourself to do it...actively allowing yourself to realize that in this career, it's okay to be a capital-A artist.”

Mack Garrison:

Oh, I love it. That's a great description. I think we've lost a little bit of that art form. Or it's been commercialized to the point where you're just doing internal art projects that look good for the brand. So you're starting to cater your art to the masses as opposed to just experimenting and trying new things. All the while building that library of knowledge in the back of your head.

To change the subject, one of the things we talked about in the very beginning was moving into freelance, the importance of community, and finding a group of people. With you doing School of Motion, I know you will echo the sentiment on how great and connected our industry is. We're both fortunate to have found ourselves in an industry that's so welcoming and helpful. Do you think that's one of the reasons why festivals have started?

Ryan Summers:

I think it's a direct reaction to all the stuff we've talked about. This has been a nascent industry that is finally starting to grow up. I asked at Camp MoGraph, "Who feels like an impostor?" Everyone raised their hand and I said, "That's cool. That's a good thing because none of us have made it through an entire career arc yet. We're all imposters. We're all trying to figure it out." There are just enough people now who've been in our industry that are either desperate for a community or they’re looking for the next step. People want to see their work recognized, right?

This is the one creative arts industry that I can think of where we put so much time into the work, but the amount of time that the work exists is negligible. We make stuff that is so difficult to make in such a short amount of time, in really inventive ways, yet we throw the pipeline away and start all over again on the next one. It's sad to think about. And every other creative arts industry recognizes the work being done in such a special way.

Ryan Summers:

Motionographer awards and ceremonies, for me, are not just about highlighting who is the best. They’re to show people that our work exists beyond being used as marketing material for a client. The systemic nature of our work causes a lot of the awful psychological problems we've started to see. People are burnt out, scared. People don't know what to do next. They’re leaving the industry because they don't feel fulfilled. I think having award shows and the awards themselves aren't that important, but the byproduct of them is. Even more important is the festivals, where people are getting together and we're not talking about software or how to make the next hot look. We're talking about what it's like to be in an industry working together as artists. That's what's awesome.

Mack Garrison:

You hit it on the head there. When we had the idea of doing the dash bash, a lot of that originated from those early conferences we went to and how enjoyable it was to meet people in the industry that are exactly like you. Blend did their first conference about a month after we started Dash. When we went, there were all these superstars that we looked up to. For us, man, these were our heroes, these were the people we wanted to be like. All of a sudden we got to recognize that they're just people like ourselves. You can go up and have these great conversations.

That's the biggest thing that I tell people. When they go to these conferences, whether it's the Dash Bash or anything else, don't go in there and just be handing out business cards. Get to know people, become their friends. Ultimately, people want to work with who they like, right? So if you have these great friendships, then naturally the work is going to come from them. Take the time to just hang out and connect in what can sometimes be a very solitary industry.

Ryan Summers:

I always say I hate the phrase networking because I don't think it’s accurate. When you go to those things, you're making friends; you're finding community. Like-minded people. Maybe you're looking for a mentor? And that's what I love about Dash. It reminds me of when I hear stories from the people who went to the first couple of Comic-Cons for the comic book industry when it was just in a basement of a hotel somewhere. It was so cool to sit and just talk to other people who settled in at a drawing table. Right? Just slaving away at comic book pages.

Mack Garrison:

We're all just in it together. Trying to figure it out. I love it. That's a really good point to end on. Let me ask you this. Have you given any more thought to the workshop itself? Anything you want to tease the public with?

Ryan Summers:

Absolutely. I get asked all the time by people about what their next steps should be, and a lot of times people think they want to be an art director, or they ask how to become a creative director. A lot of times it's surprising what that job entails. It can be very divorced from all the work you've done up until the point you asked that question. Just because you're an amazing animator, it seems like people get pushed into the direction of an art director. But you don't end up animating all that much. I hope to be able to create some type of environment where people can start to understand what it means to be an art or creative director; an interactive slice-of-life insight. So that's my tea.

Mack Garrison:

Awesome, man. I'm excited about it. I'm going to be in attendance with my notepad out taking notes.

Ryan Summers:

Awesome. It's very cool. Very cool.

Mack Garrison:

Thank you so much for taking the time. I know with everything going on, everyone working from home, I appreciate it. This has just been a blast, just catching up a little. We’ve got to do this more often.

“...there's no real magic into how this stuff gets done anymore, other than the people.”

Ryan Summers:

Definitely, man. Thanks so much for reaching out. And I'm super excited. All this stuff will get itself figured out by September, for sure. I think it's going to get a little worse than it is right now, and it's going to be a little weird because we're not used to it. But if everybody's taking it as seriously as it seems like it is, I think we'll be okay.

Mack Garrison:

I know man. I feel the same way. Be smart right now so it's not a problem later on.

Ryan Summers:

Will do. I appreciate it. Thanks for calling.

Mack Garrison:

Yeah, absolutely, Ryan. Talk soon, man. Stay safe. Don't touch anything.

Ryan Summers:

Yeah. You too. Take it easy. Bye.

Guest User 8/1/21 Guest User 8/1/21

Q&A with Dash Bash Speaker, Jorge Canedo

dash’s, Mack Garrison, had a chat with Ordinary Folk’s owner and creative director, Jorge Rolando Canedo Estrada. Read on to get his take on starting a studio, portfolio vs. paying projects, and the importance of industry camaraderie.

Q&A with Jorge Canedo
Read time: 15min

Mack Garrison:

So maybe a good place to start would be, how did you get into Ordinary Folk? Where did Ordinary Folk originate from? Were you always thinking about wanting to start a studio?

Jorge Canedo:

I had the idea before I went to school. I had this bug in me that it would be cool to start something from the ground up. It never became real until after having had the experience of working at different studios. I worked at Buck, and then Giant Ant. Afterward, I decided that I was going to go freelance and got the chance to work with a bunch of other studios. Those experiences solidified my desire to start my own.

I didn't have a name for us for a long time. Then, I was reading a book and the last chapter talked about our role in the world. It talked about how people try to make it feel like making designs is going to change the world when in reality they won’t. At the end of the day, it's what you do, how you do it, and who you do it with that matters. Then, he quoted Gandalf. Something to the effect of, “it's the small deeds of ordinary folk that make a real difference.”

Jorge Canedo:

I was working as an Ordinary Folk incorporation for some time, but it was just me. Then we had a big project come in and I was like, "Oh, I could use some help." So I brought Victor in on a six-month contract. That six-month contract became a year contract. The year contract became a year and a half contract, but I still hadn't hired him because I was just so scared. Around that time, a lot of things fell into place. One person that I had worked with on other projects as a client said, "Hey if you ever need help producing, let me know." That was Stefan.

Shortly after, his department got dissolved so he was looking for a job. His last day was on a Friday, and his first day with us was the next Monday. Around the same time, Greg decided to come and visit out of nowhere. We had started talking seriously about hiring more people, so we hired Greg, hired Victor finally, and then decided to launch the studio.

Mack Garrison:

Wow, it sounds like it all happened pretty quickly. There was planning and thought, but it sort of was like, “all right, now's the time.” Do you feel like that's accurate? That it just came together?

Jorge Canedo:

I think so. It was stewing in my brain for a couple of years. Then in six months, we were doing the thing.

Mack Garrison:

How do you feel all of your past experiences have influenced what you're currently doing at the studio?

Jorge Canedo:

If I hadn't had the opportunity, if Jay wasn't as open as he was when allowing me into the core team of Giant Ant; seeing behind the scenes, and even being a part of more executive decisions. Without that experience, I wouldn't have felt as comfortable as I was to go on my own.

*Ordinary Folk’s, “School of Motion: Manifesto.”*

Mack Garrison:

When you started Ordinary Folk, how much of a plan was there around your work culture? Was that something you were cognizant of as you were starting to build it with the team that you wanted to bring in there? Or, did it naturally happen?

Jorge Canedo:

I was very, very conscious about it. Mostly because at the time I started Ordinary Folk, we had just had our second child. I knew that I wanted it to be a place where I could drop my kids off at school, come to work, and then be home for dinner-type thing. A place where if we wanted to do personal projects, we could just carve some time during the eight-hour day and make it happen.

A lot of times we will say no to projects because we know that they’re going to eat our souls. Or sometimes as a team, we will do these projects, but after we're going to do a whole bunch of other fun things or we'll close the studio for a week so that everyone can make up the time with their families. We do try to be family-oriented, and that doesn't just apply to our own, but also to us treating each other as a family. We're in it together. I try to keep it as close as possible. So in many ways, that dictates the people that we work with.

Mack Garrison:

One of the things that constantly surprises me is just how many new things pop up that I would never have accounted for in running a studio. You think you have a general idea of what's coming and what to plan for, but then there's always something unexpected. Is there anything that sticks out to you on your anniversary of Ordinary Folk that was surprising?

Jorge Canedo:

Yeah, the part that sometimes is hidden is dealing with people. Each person has a different way of taking feedback, responding to a brief, or solving a problem. All those things are so individual-specific. Being a good creative director at A studio doesn't necessarily mean that I'm going to be a good creative director at ANY studio. It's knowing how to properly direct a specific person on your team. Learning how different it is with each person, each individual, and each personality is probably one of the biggest surprises I'd say in the work-sphere.

Mack Garrison:

That's interesting.

Jorge Canedo:

Another thing has been trying to understand our holes and how to go about filling them smartly. There's been a temptation for us to bring in a bunch of animators for a single project. That struggle to keep the culture, keep the team small, and not to get too much into the new, shiny thing is always an effort.

Mack Garrison:

Definitely. For us it’s been, how do you scale your creative without losing the "it" factor? How much do you balance? Do you guys find yourself saying no to a lot of projects? Or, if the client is the right fit with the right budget, do you guys make it work?

Jorge Canedo:

We do say no a lot. Honestly, most no’s have been because of timelines. We try to keep a healthy work-life balance. If they ask us, "can you do it in three weeks," we'll try to push to do it in five weeks. Sometimes that happens, sometimes it doesn't, which means that we're fairly booked for one to two months in advance. Unless it's something incredible that we all want to do, generally the timeline doesn't work so we have to say, no.

That being said, I think I try to involve everybody as much as possible before we say yes to a project. Is it creatively fulfilling? Is it something everybody believes in? Does it benefit us financially? If we say, "okay, this project is going to be terrible, but we're going to be done with it in two weeks and it's going to be really, really profitable." And by terrible, I mean boring.

“it's the small deeds of ordinary folk that make a real difference.”

Mack Garrison:

...bad?

Jorge Canedo:

Just, very simple stuff that we could do in our sleep-type thing. When everybody seems to be on board with it, then we do it. On the other hand, this project came in and it was a pitch. We generally have a rule of no pitching. The team seemed to be okay with doing it and they were willing to sacrifice the extra time. But I wasn't. There were a lot of red flags that the team maybe couldn't see, from a production point of view. For example, the way they were managing communication.

I was like, "You know what? Even though this could be really cool, I think the safe bet is to stick to the projects we have and try to protect the team from this and ourselves." So, we ended up passing on it, and I'm not going to lie, it hurts. I feel like it could've been awesome, but you have to make the right choices. The hard choices.

Mack Garrison:

I find that one of the lessons that I've learned in the four years of doing dash is that I felt so obliged to say, yes, in the very beginning. As we've grown, I felt more comfortable saying, no. It's a hard thing to do, we still struggle. We have those same things you're talking about where it's like, “this is a cool project, but is it pressing our timelines? Is it pressing our process and how we go about stuff?” But, even when you say, no, to those things, it's still in the back of your mind.

You brought up something that I think is interesting; the balance of projects that pay the bills and keep the lights on for the studio versus the projects that are great portfolio pieces. Do you feel like you have a good grasp on the percentage of the work you're taking on throughout the year that just keeps the lights on, as opposed to the percentage of work that you feel like is portfolio-worthy?

*“Epic;” partnership with Stephen McCaskell.*

Jorge Canedo:

That's a great question. Because we've intentionally kept it small, we've been able to be picky. It's a blessing that we can say no to projects. A privilege that I don't take for granted, and it's a privilege that I feel like we may not always have. But because of that, I feel like we're still in the honeymoon phase. If there’s been a piece that we haven't been able to show, it's because the client hasn't let us. But everything else has pretty much made it into our portfolio.

Mack Garrison:

That’s great.

Jorge Canedo:

The only thing that we haven't shown is NDA stuff. This was for Google, or whoever. It can only live once, and once it's viewed it needs to be burned after reading. It's a shame because we were really happy with them. But other than that, I would say about 90% of our pieces have made it into a portfolio.

Mack Garrison:

That's fantastic.

You've brought up something I think is interesting. It's something I know I’ve struggled with in certain moments: when you're working with a big client and they have certain stipulations where they don't want you to show the project. Do you guys add a fee to that? Have you gotten any advice on how to handle a project when it's like that?

“being a creative director at A studio doesn't necessarily mean that I'm going to be a good creative director at ANY studio.”

Jorge Canedo:

Yeah, we're trying to set up a system for that, because more and more have been. We have a list of questions that we send before saying yes to any project. Are we going to be able to say that we did it? If not, then there's a conversation that it's going to cost you X more. We don't have a percentage necessarily because it's very much case-by-case. But even if we can't show it, we're going to put all of our efforts into it. In the end, we're making it for you.

Mack Garrison:

It's such a shame because our industry is so visual, and a lot of our work comes from what people are able to see in our portfolios. For the most part, clients only hire for what they can see, which is always a struggle.

But that's an interesting point. Let's pivot the conversation a little bit. Coming off of Blend Fest, I felt like you went from the talk of the town on where you wanted to go, and inspired us of course to do the dash bash. But I'm also seeing Camp MoGraph popping up, you have Half Rez in Chicago, I think I may have even seen that F5 is coming back. Why do you think there's such a resurgence in the popularity of these motion festivals? What do you think it is that gets people so excited?

Jorge Canedo:

That's an excellent question. I've talked with people in different industries; the film industry, the editing industry, even the gaming industry. There's something special about the motion design industry, in which it started with such a basic entry-level. You can watch a video tutorial and start moving stuff. It makes people connected online and it builds the foundation of a community that I dare to say is unlike any other; where people are very open, and willing to help each other out, answering questions, sharing things, and complimenting each other. That's what we saw on Vimeo. It’s how everybody got to know each other and see each other's work. So, it's just a natural consequence.

The way I see it, we're hanging out online. We might as well do it in real life. It's a reminder of why we do it, to get people excited again about what got them interested in motion design in the first place. All these various things. There's Mouvo, there's NodeFest, and there's so many more happening all over the world. It's great to see now. This is not just a Blend thing, this is a community mentality because we want to get together and see people's work. I don't think that's going to go away.

Mack Garrison:

I love it. Honestly, for us at least, dash started, let's see, what year was the first Blend Fest?

Jorge Canedo:

2005. No, 2015.

“there's something special about the motion design industry...you can watch a video tutorial and start moving stuff. it makes people connected online and builds the foundation of a community that I dare to say is unlike any other.”

Mack Garrison:

It was like September 2015 right? So, dash started in October of 2015. We were one month in when we went to Blend Fest. I remember as an upcoming studio in the middle of Raleigh, North Carolina, the middle of nowhere for most folks, it was so important to me to be able to go somewhere and connect with all these people that I'd known online but had no idea what they looked like. To be able to get their advice.

It was an incredibly helpful thing for an up-and-coming studio. Which is, of course, one of the reasons why we wanted to put this on. To give back to the community. As a final question before we can let you get out of here, after putting on Blend Fest for the last five years or so, what advice would you give for the dash bash that we should consider as we're finishing up our planning?

Jorge Canedo:

Just one?

Mack Garrison:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Or, maybe a couple of key takes. Highlights, not to scare us.

Jorge Canedo:

I think that one thing that we keep remembering is that ultimately it's not really about networking. It's not about your speakers. Don’t get me wrong, those are important things. In some ways, those are your selling points. But, at the end of the day when you're there, it's about the people; making the people feel special. Be worried about the experience of someone coming in. How do they feel? How do they feel they’re being treated, like we're happy that they're there? Think of it as a party and you're the host, more so than you’re creating this networking event where you're going to come out with free contacts and merch.

Focus on the people. Like the way you speak of your studio; the culture, being a people-center. Bring that to the festival. That is one of the main things that Teresa, who is the other brain behind Blend, always cared about. Of course it's also one of the things that Claudio and Sander focus on, the four of us always tried to make the festival one we would love to attend. Another thing I keep going back to again and again is to make sure people remember the inspiring talks. Unfortunately, that's not the first thing people talk about when they experience Blend. They're talking about, "dude we had waffles and there was a band at the end!"

Mack Garrison:

Right!

*Ordinary Folk’s, “Keep Looking,” for client, Desiring God.*

Jorge Canedo:

Little things like that make people feel special, and I think that's one thing that I would say is very important. Be a good host.

Mack Garrison:

That's a good takeaway. We're excited about what's going to come this September. I’m looking forward to hanging out with you and everyone else who descends on Raleigh. Man, it's going to be a lot of fun. Well, Jorge, I can't thank you enough for hopping on a quick call with us for the interview.

Jorge Canedo:

It's worth it, man. I'm excited. I think you guys will do an awesome job, and I'm very excited for you guys.

Mack Garrison:

Awesome, thanks so much, Jorge. Say hey to the studio for us.

Jorge Canedo:

Will do. Bye.

Mack Garrison:

All right. See you, buddy. Bye.

A collection of some of Ordinary Folk’s favorite moments from their favorite projects thus far. Original music by Ambrose Yu

Guest User 7/25/21 Guest User 7/25/21

Discussing the Evolution of the Animation Industry with TJ Kearney

We sat down with TJ Kearney, Global Director of Content at Work & Co. and former founding partner of oddfellows, to speak on the debate of being a generalist vs specialist, the growing importance of social media, and more!

Q&A with TJ Kearney
Read time: 20min

Mack Garrison:

I advise others, but I also need to listen to it myself. I was talking to someone the other day, a student, about how whatever you put up on your website is what people will ultimately hire you for. Advertise what it is you want to do. dash has done a really good job of defining a style that we're good at; colorful vector, snappy, bubbly-type animation. The problem is, we've started to notice that that's the only recurring work we're getting from people, but we can do a lot more.

So, one of our goals this year is to push into creating stuff that feels different than what's already on our portfolio. To try to say, "Hey look, yeah, we can knock this explainer video out of the park for you, but here are some other things that we can do as well."

TJ Kearney:

You and I were talking about this the other day. It doesn't matter how talented your studio is, even if you have crazy stuff on your reel that brought the client to you in the first place. They can still reach a point where they say, "Well, have you done this exact thing? Have you done animated food?" And you're like, "Of course I can do that, but I don't have it in my reel." That can be a deal-breaker. Sometimes people want to see that one exact thing.

As you said, you have this one style, so clients are only seeing that one style. We ran into that when I had a studio. We started only doing 3D, eventually, we started hiring cel animators. Suddenly, we couldn't win any 3D work because we had nothing to show. It’s something important to think about as you're curating; what you're putting out into the world. Make sure it's leading to the next thing, rather than just showing what you've already done in the past.

Mack Garrison:

How'd y'all get out of that? Was it just that emphasis and focus on creating new work that showed you could do a more diverse style?

TJ Kearney:

It was a mixture. In the beginning, we’d sneak it in wherever we could, even if it wasn't a part of what the client asked for. Then, a lot of it came down to personal projects and putting up work that aligned with what we wanted to do. I also think it was a result of how we built our staff.

We were 3D heavy in the beginning, but as we grew our staff, we started adding people that augmented that team and added to it. As a result, our aesthetic changed, and the work we started putting out reflected that. But then we almost went too far in the other direction where it's like, "Okay, well now we haven't touched 3D in six months plus, so now it's harder for us to sell in 3D." That's fine if you don't want to be doing that, but if you want to have a diverse range, then you have to be continually updating the work while making sure that you have a consistent flow of multiple types of work so that people can see what you’re capable of.

“it’s something important to think about as you're curating: what you're putting out into the world. make sure it's leading to the next thing, rather than just showing what you've already done in the past.”

Mack Garrison:

I've been surprised how much social media has started to influence our projects and the work we're landing. You mentioned posting little personal pieces or side projects to show what you're capable of doing. I feel we've been focused on just putting a lot of stuff out on social media for exposure within our communities so that people know who we are. It's impacted a lot of the clientele that follow us.

I can't tell you how many times I've gotten calls that have been like, "Oh, I saw this post that you guys put out the other day. It looks like it's the perfect fit for this project that we're working on. You want to talk about it?" I never thought that social media would have pivoted to a point where it has such a direct impact on our work.

TJ Kearney:

I try to keep in mind that the people who’re hiring you more often than not are the art and design directors. They're always pulling you for reference, and not necessarily just you, but also pulling from socials. Years ago, your only options were to go to a rep and see what the rep presented to you. Go to Motionographer. Go to Stash. Go to these places that were highlighting a select few. Now, the middleman has been cut out of that whole scenario. Art directors are looking at Instagram just as much as anybody else, and they're the target.

The trap there and the thing I get worried about is the pressure to constantly update your socials. What ends up happening is you put out a bunch of work more frequently, and it's not as high a caliber as it used to be. However, I lean more towards consistently updating while not feeling the pressure that you have to put something on every day or even every week. Once or twice a quarter is fine. Make sure you have a presence out there, but also make sure what you're putting out is differentiating you because of its higher quality.

Mack Garrison:

I feel the same trap of assimilating into a particular style. Things get saturated, as far as where people are trying to find inspiration. Work starts to look similar. You have a couple of big players that come out with something that looks relatively unique, then, all of a sudden, you get a million copycats that push in that direction. As an industry, that's one area that we can improve; pushing new avenues. Though, I do feel motion design is one of the few areas bridging this gap between all of the different fields. You have new technology coming out; people coming into it who have a background in code, graphic design, illustrators, designers. It's a hodgepodge of people that get into this field.

TJ Kearney:

That ties back to the social media posting everyone’s pulling from. You've got two or three different routes; you’ve got direct-to-client work, working with an agency involved as a middleman between you, or, you're working with a studio that you're running everything for them. You run into issues less with that third one. The other two have art directors that have been selling through to the client. Even if they're internal, they’ve been selling an aesthetic before you even get to the table. They've had weeks or months worth of conversations to get the budget unlocked. Usually, they’ve been pulling the same work that everybody else is. By that time, their higher-ups are already expecting something to look a certain way and it becomes that much harder for you to push.

Unfortunately, some of that gets taken out of your hands at the studio. A lot falls on your client relations; getting yourself up the food chain so that you're having that conversation early on before things are locked in. I think that this is where it gets interesting. Right? You've got studios - Golden Wolf is a great example - where they have an aesthetic and a theme. You know what you're buying into. Then, you have some more diverse studios. That's where you’ll get a broader spectrum to get hired. At the same time, they may come to you with a very clear direction before you even get your chance to put your stamp on it.

Mack Garrison:

100%. Even just saying, "Golden Wolf," everyone reading will picture exactly what that style of work is. I'm sure it's the same deal for the clients who want to hire them. It's like, "Well, we know we can get diversity in what we want our final project to be, but, in general, we want it to be in this style. So let's go to the best of the best who does that."

On the flip side, if you're more of a generalist, you might not be the go-to studio to do that. Ultimately, it depends on how you want to position yourself in the market. I'm curious about your take on this as well. Now’s the time if you’re a specialist. Be good at something, get hired for being the best at that. But, if you're looking for more long-term security in the industry, I think being a generalist makes more sense. It gives you ultimate flexibility while allowing you to pivot with new trends and technology. Do you have a thought on which is better?

TJ Kearney:

I think better is an interesting term. It comes down to your individual goals, whether at a studio or as a freelancer. Either is a gamble. If you're a generalist, you're probably not going to make as much due to your wide spectrum. The good thing is that you're going to get volume, so you'll have more opportunities come to you. But I wouldn't be surprised if the budgets go up. Right?

Instead, when you start to see the budgets go up, that’s when you have a hyper-focused type of team or individual. You especially see this in illustration where you’ll have an illustrator who's popular and has a distinct style. They could be three times the price of any other illustrator, but the client wants that one style. So, they're going to invest in the more expensive person. The problem is, you're waiting for clients who want that one thing or that one look. The phone will ring a little less frequently when you're that specialized, but you can charge a premium for it. That's all well and good when times are really good…

Mack Garrison:

...when that style's really in.

TJ Kearney:

That's the thing, it has a time limit. That style's not going to be in for the entirety of anyone's career. For that reason, I think being a generalist is safer. For freelancers, it comes down to where you want to work. If you just want to make sure you're making a paycheck, or you want to work at agencies, being a generalist makes a lot of sense. They’re going to have you work on tons of different types of work. If you want to work at a studio, most studios are looking for hyper-focused individuals. They have a need. They're trying to augment or add to their team. So many animators that are coming out of school right now, if you want to get into a studio, you have to differentiate yourself. It comes down to the individual's goals; depending on what you want, where you want to end up, and consistency versus quality. Those are the decision-makers for where you put your energy.

“it comes down to the individual's goals; depending on what you want, where you want to end up, and consistency versus quality. those are the decision-makers for where you put your energy.”

Mack Garrison:

That's a really interesting take on it. Using them as a continued example, I think about Golden Wolf. The type of person that would go there is very specific. On the other hand, I think about all of the random projects that come in the door. For some, it's more beneficial to have people with a multitude of skill sets. We may have someone working in pre-production who’ll then be animating the next day. Or, maybe they're conceptualizing some stuff. Having people that are versatile and can hop around is helpful, but maybe you don’t necessarily need to be versatile in a bunch of different styles, but versatile on how you take that style and apply it to different areas of the process. Whereas, in an agency, you may be more involved in all different areas, a studio you might be more specific.

Let me ask you this, TJ, let's say you're starting a studio. You open it up. ‘TJ Kearney R Us,’ or whatever it's called. How do you think you would approach it? Would you do anything differently? Would you be hyper-focused? More of a generalist?

TJ Kearney:
A few things, I would not hire based on skill set, but based on personalities. I’d build a team that works well together with skills that benefit one another. Then, I would learn to sell around that. What I've learned throughout my career is people buy into hyper-focused and well-running machines. Anyone, any client can go hire an animator. They do all the time. So, why do they need you?

You've built a unit, a team, that works so well together that they pump out work at a higher caliber than any freelancers or group they could bring in. That's the difference. When I first started, there were really big egos and a lot of assholes in the industry, to be honest. People could get away with that because they were buying into the fact that there were only a handful of people that could do the work. So, there were a few people that made a ton of money. They could treat their assistants like crap and get away with it because they were the only ones that could do it.

TJ Kearney:

Let's be honest, we have an oversaturated market of talent. There are so many kids graduating, young talent coming out that's affordable. But, that only gets you so far. It's the teams that work well together and are going to make something better than any thrown together team can.

What I've learned the most out of all the companies I've worked with, is the importance of finding what you're good at, focusing on it, and becoming a leader in it. That means, for the most part, that you don't pivot, but when you do, you go all in. Those are the biggest things; team personality and makeup, finding what you're good at, making sure you stand out, and even if you take on and you are diverse within the walls of your studio don't sell yourself as a bunch of different things.

Mack Garrison:

I love where this conversation is going. Sometimes with direct to client projects, a lot of the clients are used to working with agencies. They're used to working with groups that have more capabilities than what a studio might offer. But the industry is shifting and some of these bigger companies are gaining in-house teams. Despite that, clients don't necessarily have the need for a big turnkey agency. They want to go to a studio for their animation needs, however, they're still wanting more of what they've gotten from an agency. Of course, it's just like a cheaper price because you're coming to a studio.

It's really important not to water down your focus and to be good at one thing, you know? As soon as you start to become too broad - you start doing media buys or try to become the motion studio that transitions into an agency - you’ll start falling short on promises and what you do well. Off that same line, aside from bringing in creative roles, what are some other roles you think are crucial that motion studios out there might overlook?

TJ Kearney:

I'm going to be biased to producers. I'm a producer.

Mack Garrison:

Right.

TJ Kearney:

There are a lot of studios that started with just creative, that's the biggest mistake. You need a strong producer that can handle tough conversations with clients, lawyers, and accountants. Especially when you're a small company. The reality is, you're not going to have an HR department. So they've got to fill in as HR and office management as well. They wear all these different hats. That's step one.

Step two...having a partner. You don't necessarily need to hire in-house accountants or anything like that, but having a financial partner that can guide you is something that's often overlooked. Also, lawyers are really important partners to have on hand. Then when it comes to augmenting your staff, I would focus on writers and developers. Having developer partners is going to open up the doors for a lot of where the industry's headed next. When I was starting, everything was television. TV and cinema then started evolving into digital and the web. We’ve had this golden period of making a bunch of online how-to and intro videos, but we're seeing those budgets get cut in half. Right? Now, we're trying to figure out how to get scrappy. But rather than fighting each other over the scraps at the end, why don't we focus on what's next?

Mack Garrison:

That’s a good point.

“what I've learned the most out of all the companies I've worked with is the importance of finding what you're good at. focusing on it, and becoming a leader in it.”

TJ Kearney:

That and media buying have been my focus. Most studios don't, but I think it is really important. Here at Work & Co, I have a content team, development team, and our design team. Also, a company that we purchased, called AKDM that does all the media planning and buying.

Mack Garrison:

You know, I think there's tension in the industry. Bigger agencies are getting smaller. You have freelancers who are becoming more capable. Kids are coming out of school who are doing phenomenal stuff. So, the industry is kind of pitching. What used to be brought into work for the studio is now getting taken away by freelancers and some of the top-tier studios are now taking work away from some of those agencies. There's going to be a lot more partnerships starting to happen. Because branding is going to be a really important element of this, but so is systemizing the motion.

We had a piece we worked on with a brand agency called New Kine, they needed us to come in and help with the video. So, it became like a partnership, we were brought into the conversations. It was all transparent, and in the end, we went our separate ways. They were able to deliver on a client's needs without having to take on the overhead or manage something that was out of their wheelhouse. I think there's going to be a lot more of that, particularly as shops become smaller while trying to be a little more nimble.

TJ Kearney:

I think you hit something important there. A partnership has to be a partnership, not a vendor relationship. When that branding studio brought you to the table, it was about both going to conversations together. When you're building these relationships, I wouldn't wait until the need arises. Then, you're scrambling. Instead, I would get ahead of it and build those relations now so that when the opportunity comes up, you're already fluid. You're used to working together and you know how it's going to work.

Mack Garrison:

That's a great analogy. That preparedness, thinking ahead is the biggest thing. It's easy to get caught up, especially when you're busy with projects that you're hyper-focused on. One of the things that I've learned from running the studio is that you have to be looking ahead; what projects are coming in, your revenue stream, is there going to be slower months? All are imperative and are examples of why having good management is so important.

What might be a good thing to speak on is the producer role. For myself, my role is pretty blended. I'm a producer, a creative director, an accountant, and I'm also writing company. It's all over the place, but a true producer role. What are the expectations of a producer?

TJ Kearney:

The true role of a producer varies by their level and specific title, right? You have junior producers, studio producers, broadcast producers, and digital producers. You also have senior and finally executive producers. Everybody has their different title. At a junior producer level, you're learning on the job. My expectations are you’re taking notes in the meetings, you’re checking in and making sure the shots are getting done on time while also reporting back. This will vary depending on the size of the company.

Standard producers can handle one to two projects by themselves. They escalate things to the executive producer and are the bad guys when needed. They're always going to have their scopes vetted by a senior or an executive producer before they go out. But I’d expect to be able to hand them a project and run the day to day and make sure it gets done.

TJ Kearney:
Senior producers are going to do all that, plus be able to handle multiple projects at a time at a full load. All the while, mentoring the younger producers. Finally, you've got your executive producers. In my mind, they’re the parents of the studio or team. Their job is to build that team to deal with inner conflict, make sure to find opportunities to grow staff members, and ultimately looking ahead to ensure there's work every day for that team; planning for the next quarter, making sure the work that's going out is leading to the company goal and creating opportunities that lead to the type of work that the studio wants to stand for. They're the ones that are going to be having the tough financial conversation. They're the ones that are going to have to deal with someone getting let go. All of those heavier situations.

Mack Garrison:

There's not always a right answer for something. Sometimes a new request comes in that you’ve never dealt with one before. When you get situations like that, what's your solution strategy? For unprecedented situations, how would you advise some younger producers?

TJ Kearney:

When I started, I was frustrated. I was always told this industry is about who you know, and I didn't know anybody. I worried about breaking and making those connections. The hardest part when you're a young producer is realizing that producing comes with time. There's nothing you can do about it. You have to work your way through a bunch of different projects to start understanding what's needed, what unforeseen things to anticipate. That knowledge only comes with repetition and experience.

Another thing, every team you work with is different. A lot of times you'll see a producer who's like, “well, I had this team that was able to do this in two weeks.” Your new staff may take four weeks to do the same task. So, it's about knowing who your team is, what they can do, and how well they can do it.

Mack Garrison:

When you're a producer, you're talking about experience and how you need to build experience to make decisions. For someone who's up and coming, particularly maybe if you're the sole producer at a studio full of creatives, you may not have a mentor. How do you make tough decisions when you feel like there's nothing that you can back it up against? Is there a methodology you do in this situation?

TJ Kearney:

Getting back to what I was saying before about not knowing anyone, build a network that you can bounce ideas off of. They don't have to work at your studio. We all are guessing. It's the Wild West. Everyone's just making it up. The rate of what something costs is whatever you can get away with at the end of the day. So, it's tough to say, “here's the set of rules to use for producing,” because they don't exist. My whole career, I haven't had to deal with print. So, when I have a print ask, I have producers I can reach out to with that background. They help guide me. The misnomer that a producer should know everything isn’t possible.

Mack Garrison:

It's great to hear you say that. I think about when I was first getting into animation and motion design, I was a junior animator. As you get older, you gain more experience and realize that, to your point, no one in the game knows what they're doing. Everyone's just figuring it out. Once you conclude, it gives you the confidence to handle difficult situations consistently. The biggest thing that I've learned is whatever decision you make, make it, learn from it and be consistent with how you approach that in the future.

TJ Kearney:

Exactly. The difference between a junior producer and somebody seasoned, is a junior producer tends to fake it till they make it, pretend like they have all the answers when they don't know what they're talking about and do it as tight of a budget as they think they can get away with; all the things that bite you in the ass. Every one of them.

When you're a seasoned producer, you've got nothing to lose. Your job is pretty secure because you're a very senior person in this industry. So when you're at that level, you're able to say like, I don't fucking know and that's okay. I’ve made a fool of myself several times by just pretending I knew what I was talking about. When you're more senior, you don't sweat it. You say I need more time. You say I need to ask some questions first. I'll get back to you. You pad your budgets because you know that whatever you think it's going to take, it's going to take more than that.

“a partnership has to be a partnership. not a vendor relationship.”

Mack Garrison:

That's so accurate. It’s all about learning from experiences, which might be a good segue to a question for you. Are there any key moments of mistakes that have stuck with you?

TJ Kearney:

There are a few. At my very first job as a producer, I was working in visual effects and finishing house. We were finishing spots, big national broadcast spots, and stuff. We had to get ISCI codes so that we could play everything. ISCI codes are becoming rare, but at the time I had no idea what the fuck ISCI code was. I was too embarrassed to ask anyone though. Then, I did a Google search for ISCI and saw some definition of it as a password. I just went in, really confidently, to the client. I was like, "Yeah, let's set that password." They were like, "What are you talking about? That's not what an ISCI..." The client had to teach me what was in the room. You’re better off asking upfront, than being embarrassed after the fact.

Also, early on, my scopes were light, especially in assumptions. Remember, just because a client may have had animated thoughts before, doesn't mean they know what it takes to do what we do. I’d say, "We'll deliver you a spot, it'll be 60 seconds." That's about it. What I didn't build in back then was, "This is the style that we're locking in on." Or, "This is the round of reviews." A costly one for me was a really big tech job early on. We were supposed to run, around eight to ten weeks. In the end, it ran for eight months.

Mack Garrison:

Oh, wow.

TJ Kearney:

The client was frustrated, they felt the scope was deliverable space and we hadn't delivered against what they were requesting. I felt it was time and material space, but the scope was too loose to prove either of us right. Just made this uncomfortable situation. Do all the tough conversations before you get started. Make sure your contract is buttoned up. Make sure you've thought of every possible left turn that's going to come along the way, that it's written into your scope so that when it comes, no one's caught off guard, which happens a lot.

Mack Garrison:

That has to be a universal mistake. I'm cringing a bit because I look at what our SOWs were when we first started. What we send now is drastically different. I was guilty of the one line, "Here's the price, here are some references." I'll break things out line by line, to even storyboard style frames, keyframes, animatics to show the process, and what we're building into that. Laying out review times, because even with the best intentions, something always comes up. You just want to make sure that when there is an issue, you have a roadmap on how to handle it.

TJ Kearney:

It's brutal. Important things that get left out there are about breaking things down for granular. For me, I set out the ideal review cadence that I'm anticipating for the whole project within the contract itself, including how many hours the client has to respond with feedback before the change order kicks in. What I get asked a lot by younger producers is, "We're still only doing the number of reviews that we agreed to in our contract, but the client's taking a week to get back to us every round, and we're losing all this time." If you haven't built that into your contract, you screwed yourself.

Mack Garrison:

Right. Particularly on those event-driven deadlines, it's contingent on them responding. That's lost production.

When we first started the company, I remember reading books. Gino Whitman had this book, “Traction.” It spoke about systems and organization, as a creative, I didn’t think it was for us. I turned an eye towards having stock prices or systems for how we quote things out. But, the more I've grown in my position, the more that I've learned to like systems. They create an efficient machine. What are your thoughts on systemizing? Is it good or does it take away from the quality?

TJ Kearney:

I see two sides of that coin. I can tell you what I do now. I have boilerplate signs that are four different tiers of projects. If we need to turn out something quickly, we already have a keynote built that says, "Here are some examples of that style. Here are the deliverables that typically come with that style." Then, I give ranges. I won't get granular at that point, it's more like, "Okay well, that type of project typically costs $xx." Whatever it ended up being, you should anticipate the project will be between $xx and $xx. That's a variance in price there, comes down to music, video licensing types of things, or how intricate we get with the animation. We have a range there, to where we can scale back if this budget's the issue, or we can scale up if quality is the goal. From there, I try to use those to present what their feedback is and what they're reacting to. But, you don't want to pigeonhole yourself; presenting references the same, limiting your team. You could just fall into a pattern of repetition which is problematic in itself. By keeping everything a little more bespoke, you leave the door open to other styles and opportunities.

The other benefit to systematizing is consistency. The last agency I was at, every bid that went out was wildly different. The rates were different. Even if the ask was the same, depending on which team you were working with, or which producer happened to do that scope, you would get back different rates. That isn't so much a concern when you're a small studio, but as you get bigger, that's problematic. You don't want one client coming to you multiple times with the same ask and getting three completely different rates, it makes you look unprofessional.

TJ Kearney:

By systematizing things, as you grow and you add producers to your team, you're ensuring everything that comes out of your studio is consistent.

Mack Garrison:

That’s accurate. I think back to what we were charging when we first started, we're four times those rates now. Partly because, initially, you're like, "I don't want to go under." But being confident to say "No" to projects that you know aren't the right fit, that was hard. Knowing you had the time to take on the project, but it just wasn't quite enough money. One thing we found helpful was to have a baseline retainer. That was a pivoting point, maybe a year or two, where I started to think we could start to push to do what we wanted to do. Do you feel the same way? Does every studio or agency need some sort of retainer model? It seems like a good safety net to have.

TJ Kearney:

Yeah. Like anything else, there are pros and cons. The trap with the downside to a retainer system is the perception, "The client owns you," at that point, right? I’ve seen where the expectation on the client's side is like, "Well, you're part of our staff now. If our staff works overtime, you better be ready to turn on, work nights and weekends for us." I would be very hesitant to fall into that trap, but that said, your company is going to be far more stable with retainers than it is without them because you can start to plan out the year.

I see this all the time, where a studio ramps up when they're busy, then all of a sudden they've got a bunch of people sitting around with nothing to put them on. I think that retainers are scary to a lot of people because they have no idea how they're structured or how to negotiate them. It starts to be a more viable option, as you become established and build a rapport with a specific client.

“The Junebugs” — Produced by TJ Kearney

Mack Garrison:

Well, that's a really good point.

I'm looking forward to having you down here in October. You’ll love my hometown, we’ll be getting y'all some barbecue.

TJ Kearney:

I'm excited, man. Thanks a lot.

Mack Garrison:

Great catching up, and enjoy the weekend, dude. I'll talk to you soon.

Guest User 5/18/21 Guest User 5/18/21

Takeover Tuesday with Stephen Ong

Q&A with Stephen Ong: an animation director with a penchant for crafting loops and short films

Q&A with Stephen Ong
Read time: 5min

Madison Caprara:

Hey there, Stephen! Tell us a bit about yourself. How would you describe your current work and what did it take to get you where you are now?

Stephen Ong:

I’m Stephen Ong, I’m an animator & director from the UK.

My current work often involves short looping animations, featuring bouncy playful objects, scenes, and deconstructed characters. I also create short films and work on commercial animation projects.

Madison Caprara:

Nice!

What was it about this field that initially attracted you?

Stephen Ong:

I believe play is so important in life, even as an adult. For me, working in animation feels like a big toy box to keep exploring and having fun with. You can create a different world every day without rules or restrictions. This was the main reason I chose to study animation and illustration.

Madison Caprara:

I love that outlook on life. That’s probably one of the most interesting ways I’ve heard animation described yet.

So, you had started your studio, Make It Move, with your partner, Mark Fuller, correct? How exactly did that come about? What was that dynamic like?

Stellar - Directed by Stephen Ong & Mark Fuller, Sound Design by Drew Simmons, Produced by Make it Move Productions

Stephen Ong:

Our studio is no longer operating. Mark and I are both independently working now and we are repped by the lovely people at MATHS in the U.S. for commercial work.

Having the studio was fun, but it made me realize that I don’t want to run full-service production. I found working too much with the client-side took some of my love out of animating, fortunately, I have a good balance now.

Madison Caprara:

That’s great to hear! Finding that balance is always a bit of a journey.

Speaking on balance, we’re in the midst of an extraordinarily challenging time, especially for professional creatives. What gives you hope these days? How’re you keeping your mental health intact?

Stephen Ong:

I’m an introvert so initially, I really enjoyed the isolation. I was creating a lot of animations to keep my mind busy. However, a lot of our inspiration comes from being in the world; culture, meeting people, and experiences. It takes more than just looking at things on a screen. So winter this year was hard, the main thing that keeps me going is to make plans for when we can do things again.

Madison Caprara:

I tend to lean a little towards introversion too, I was really surprised by how difficult it was to adjust to not being able to just hang around people socially.

Pivoting over to the professional world, has the pandemic radically affected your access to work, or maybe even, your creative process in its entirety?

Stephen Ong:

I have mainly been making shorter pieces of animation during the pandemic, animated loops have really helped me get things finished. My work in 2020 feels like a lot of studies, exploring how I make work, testing out ideas and techniques. It’s felt very explorative, which has been fun.

Madison Caprara:

I see that you are pretty active on your social media - particularly Instagram. How important do you think these digital outlets are for the success of professional creatives?

Stephen Ong:

This came about from wanting to explore and find out if something, a particular style or subject, worked. I like seeing how an audience responds to things, and it helped me to find a direction and curate things. I’m not good at curating my own work, so social media has helped a bit.

The importance of social media is outside of what you see on the feeds though. I’ve had conversations and connections with people in DM’s or on Discord/Slack that have led to opportunities and me making new friends in the industry. I guess that is the cool part about it, everyone is so connected and people are just up for talking and sharing experiences and support.

Madison Caprara:

That’s the biggest thing I love about social media, the ability to connect. It’s partly why I’ve made it into a career, but there can be some downsides. Are there any cons that you personally perceive?

Stephen Ong:

Just looking at your phone too much, look up at the real stuff!

Madison Caprara:

Fair, very fair!

So then, where do you find yourself going for inspiration? Any advice to those stuck in a creative rut?

Stephen Ong:

Ha! This follows the last question well. Just being in the world, exploring and experiences. Not Google Images or social media, all my ideas come from life.

Madison Caprara:

What is one of your favorite pieces that you’ve worked on? What about one of your favorite pieces in general - can be from someone you admire!

Stephen Ong:
I did a really fun piece for RSA last year, but it’s been so delayed due to COVID...it’s not even published yet. My favorite short film I’ve worked on is probably Stellar which is about a space-traveling eyeball. I made it a few years ago. It was just such a simple production, I storyboarded it and animated it in two weeks. Visually it’s simplistic but I like the story.

Work that I admire…I really like music videos, most of the stuff directed by Canada or Michel Gondry. Or any Ok Go videos, I don't think you can NOT like them. I also love Geoff McFetridge's paintings.

Madison Caprara:

Is there anything in particular you try, or would like to try, to address or explore through the animations you create?

Stephen Ong:

I’d love to try painting on a large scale. There are quite a few legal walls where I live, so I would love to paint some sort of sequence on those with my characters or something.

Madison Caprara:

Interesting, going from the digital to the physical. I’d love to see it!

Are there any particular apps, software, or other technology you would recommend getting familiar with to someone just getting into animation?

Stephen Ong:
I would recommend picking up something like rough animator on an iPad and playing around with fbf animation. They just get you in tune with timing for animation.

Madison Caprara:

Good to know!

Do you have any closing advice or points you would like to share?

Stephen Ong:

Keep having fun!

Light - Illustration & Animation by Stephen Ong, Music composition by Josh Alport

Guest User 5/4/21 Guest User 5/4/21

Takeover Tuesday with Rachel Reid

Q&A with Rachel Reid: a freelance 2D and 3D character animator, living in Detroit, MI.

Q&A with Rachel Reid
Read time: 10min

Madison Caprara:

What’s up, Rachel?

So, let’s start from the beginning. Tell us a little bit about yourself and your upbringing!

Rachel Reid:

Hello! My name is Rachel Reid and I am a freelance character animator. I was born in Detroit, Michigan, and attended the College for Creative Studies with a BA in Animation.

Growing up, I loved to draw and play video games with my twin brother. Drawing was really the only thing I wanted to do both at school and at home. My father encouraged my brother and me to learn Toon Boom Harmony, Blender, and Maya from a very early age. We spent so much of our time creating our own animations and making fun 8-bit video games. My brother would create a flip-book with stick-figure animations on sticky notes while I’d create my own comic books and watch cartoons. I grew up very fortunate to be surrounded by a loving and supportive family who encouraged me to learn and grow artistically.

Madison Caprara:

So, how exactly did you get into drawing and animation career-wise? When did you know that it was something you wanted to pursue?

Rachel Reid:

I loved watching animated films. Growing up, I was always interested in understanding how they were made. More than the movies themselves, I enjoyed watching the “behind the scenes” footage of some of my favorite Disney or Miyazaki films. Strangely, pursuing animation never felt like something I decided to do. It simply felt like a natural response to my growing need to find my purpose in life!

While the interest was always there, my father especially encouraged me to dive into the medium. His support was crucial in my pursuit as he provided me with a computer and always had the animation software equipped and ready to go. I remember the day he begged me to start exploring Autodesk Maya. I’ve never stopped using Maya since!

Madison Caprara:

That unwavering support is so crucial. Despite that, was there ever any hesitancy or doubt when deciding to pursue this career path?

“it wasn’t until I realized that there weren’t many women and BIPOCs in the industry, that the doubts came rolling in.”

Rachel Reid:

I’m very blessed to have parents who encouraged me to pursue my artistic goals from a young age. I realize not many young artists have parents who support their endeavors, as it seems much more secure to pursue something more practical. Because of the support from my parents, I had no reservations as I began studying and pursuing animation for my career. It wasn’t until I realized that there weren’t many women and BIPOCs in the industry that the doubts came rolling in. However, nothing felt more divine than my pursuit of animation; so my doubts were completely drowned out as I began learning the 12 principles!

Madison Caprara:

So, going from pursuing an education to actually delving into the professional world, how did you end up at Gunner? What was your experience like there?

Rachel Reid:

A month or so after graduating from The College for Creative Studies, I landed an internship at Gunner (which was a start-up studio at the time). I didn’t know much about Gunner or how popular they would become later down the line. I was just happy to have landed a job more than anything.

Gunner turned out to be a great experience though! My skills improved so much during my time there. Because my work was heavily relied on by my peers, I had to shift my focus from nitpicking to just getting the job done. Modifying my thinking in that way helped me focus on making the next project better than the last, and that's when the growth came. The best thing about working for Gunner was collaborating with the freelancers and networking with talented artists throughout the industry. If I had spent less than the five years I did at Gunner, my jump into freelance work would not have been as seamless during the pandemic; I was meeting new people in the industry up until the very last day I was employed at Gunner, and I’m super thankful for that.

Madison Caprara:

Sweet!

So personally, I’m pretty sensitive to the environment I’m in and the things going on around me. How do you allow the going-ons of everyday life to influence your works?

“Knandu Apparatus” — By Rachel Reid.

Rachel Reid:

This is a tricky question for me. I think the biggest challenge I’ve had since working professionally is having a life outside of work so that I can stay motivated and inspired.

It was easy to work on my own projects while in college, but it’s been a long time since I have created, designed, storyboarded, and animated my own ideas. That’s a muscle I have to stretch a little more. When I finally take time off from work, that's when I become more observant and try to stow away the interesting things I see - and experience - into my memory for future projects. I’d like to get back into the habit of carrying a notebook with me so I can write down any ideas that come to me.

Madison Caprara:

Pivoting off of that, what is your favorite subject matter to play off of? Why?

Rachel Reid:

My favorite subject matter is history! When I’m learning about the history of any country or culture, I feel like I’m in a time capsule! It’s interesting to learn how people, societies, cultures, and traditions evolve over time. History is the best explanation as to why things are the way they are today and is a good indicator of how far we’ve come as a society.

Madison Caprara:

Or how far we haven’t come.

Fun speed round! Critique one well-known animation. This can be on any scale. What do you like? Dislike? What would you change?

Rachel Reid:

I really love J’ai Perdu Mon Corps by Jérémy Clapin. I love this film because it's very adult and a much more thought-provoking film than it is action-packed. As far as the style of the film, it doesn’t go out of its way to be too impressive. The heart of the film lies within the narrative, the story is a bit existential with a lot of symbolism. In every scene, I feel close to the characters and the story gives us - the audience - room to sit with them and feel what they feel, in both the silence and the noise.

There’s a sequence about a quarter of the way through the film where the main character and a young woman have a meaningful conversation through an apartment intercom. It’s my favorite scene because you can actually feel the thread connecting these two strangers in an intimate way, even though they can’t see each other. Their personalities are conveyed clearly through their tone of voice, body language, and reactions rather than recited to us by some outside character. If I could be a part of an animated film that is just as thought-provoking and cinematic as J’ai Perdu Mon Corps, then that would be a dream come true.

“history is the best explanation as to why things are the way they are today, and is a good indicator of how far we’ve come as a society.”

Madison Caprara:

It sounds beautiful, for sure one I’ll be adding to my list.

How do you see the difference between making 2D animation, 3D animation, and more illustrative projects? Do you have a preference between the three?

Rachel Reid:

I don’t necessarily have a preference between 2D, 3D, and illustrative work. I feel like each requires me to work a different creative muscle. Though I find illustrative projects to be very fun and a little less stressful than animation because they don’t require drawing thousands of frames, 2D and 3D animation are more my forte. It’s easier to lean on the 12 principles of animation and the rules of anatomy and body mechanics than it is to choose from literally thousands of different design decisions.

3D animation takes a little longer for me to execute because I’m dealing with so many controls in order to puppet a character. Also, did I mention that dealing with Z space can be a pain? Nevertheless, I love 3D animated projects because it gives my brain a rest from the tedious process of 2D animation. In my mind, animation is animation regardless of 2D or 3D. I’m still drawing from the same fundamentals and each medium is super fun to work with!

Madison Caprara:

You have some seriously amazing work!

How’s your work/life balance going? How do you find the time to step away and decompress a bit?

Rachel Reid:
Thanks so much for the compliment!

Work/Life balance is something that I’m still trying to figure out! It’s really tough. Usually, I NEVER take any time off, and that has made a huge negative impact on my health. Now that I’m freelance, it’s my primary focus to organize my schedule and take time off. So far, the best way for me to find time is to make sure I don’t overbook myself. When I first went freelance, I didn’t realize how intense each project would be. I would book the next job the very next day after my current project wrapped up. I even did some moonlighting.

Rachel Reid:

It’s tempting to say “yes” to every project, but that only leads to quick burnout and completely depleted motivation. I think taking a couple of days, or even a week, between bookings has really helped me reset my mind and give me the time to focus on other interests such as learning a language or an instrument. I realize without that time to catch up on life and gain new experiences, my enthusiasm for animation becomes non-existent. I say all of this to say, there’s nothing wrong with saying the word, “no”. If you want a life, you’ll have no choice but to say “no”.

Madison Caprara:

I’m sure burnout is an easy slope to go down when you’ve turned your passion into your career.

I am pretty new to the industry, you are one of the few BIPOC animators I have come across. The lack of diversity has surprised me. If you are comfortable, do you have any thoughts or experiences to share on the topic?

Rachel Reid:

Ah yes, BIPOC in animation. Yes, I have a lot to share. First and foremost, it is very disappointing that there aren’t many BIPOC in the animation industry across the board. That includes motion design, feature animation, TV Animation, and games. The very same black artists that inspired me when I first started studying animation 12 years ago are the same people who inspire me now. However, I have not come across many in-between that time.

While I’ve always wanted to pursue animation, I did feel hesitant at times. I had come to notice that I did not see any BIPOC artists in the “making of” footage of my favorite animated films. Because of this, there was a time when I didn’t understand the point of my pursuit. I truly thought I’d be rejected at first glance. So I made a point to work really hard. I wanted to be so good at animation that they’d have no choice but to hire me. While I’m still working on perfecting my skills, I do believe I’ve made it this far because of the ‘work to the bone’ mentality of my youth. But to be honest, I don’t like being one of the very few BIPOC animators in the industry. I don’t want to feel like that token black woman animator. In fact, a friend of mine referred me to a colleague describing me as a “black woman animator.”Just “animator” would have sufficed.

Rachel Reid:

I prefer a more diverse workplace where artists from all over the world can contribute their experiences and sensibilities to every project. Men are already outnumbering women in creative workplaces but the homogeneousness creates a feeling of all-encompassing isolation to POCs, no matter how fun and outgoing your colleagues are. I believe a diverse industry would create diverse projects that will no doubt be innovative and unlike anything we’ve ever seen before in animation. The biggest honor I could ever have is being an inspiration to a young black artist who’s ready to impact the world with their art.

“…there’s nothing wrong with saying the word, ‘no’. if you want a life, you’ll have no choice but to say, ‘no’.”

Madison Caprara:

Very, VERY well said. It’s sad how this issue transcends every industry I’ve come across.

Moving on to a lighter topic, where do you go for inspiration?

Rachel Reid:

Life gives me inspiration! Spending time with friends and family, listening to music, traveling, immersing myself in culture and history; All make a huge impact on my work as well as my motivation to continue in the animation industry.

“if there is anything that's equally important as staying on top of your craft, it's taking a break and having a life so that you can feed those experiences back into your work.”

Madison Caprara:

Nice! Well, do you have any closing advice or points you would like to share?

Rachel Reid:

For anyone looking for advice in regards to working in animation, I would say to stay passionate, but be realistic.

While it’s not always easy to break into the industry, the grass is not always greener once you’re working full time. Making your life’s passion your job can sometimes bring disappointment. Not every project is going to be fulfilling and finding the time to work on personal projects will be tough. This industry is very demanding. It requires a lot of crunch and over time, so understanding the importance of work/life balance is key if you’re looking to stay for the long haul.

Give yourself some time to work on your own projects. Collaborate with friends and give yourself time to learn new things. I feel very blessed to draw for a living, but that does not mean it’s stress-free. If there is anything that's equally important as staying on top of your craft, it's taking a break and having a life so that you can feed those experiences back into your work.

Guest User 4/27/21 Guest User 4/27/21

Takeover Tuesday with Nocky Dinh

Q&A with Nocky Dinh: a freelance motion graphics designer and animator currently living in NYC, but originally from Vietnam.

Q&A with Nocky Dinh
Read time: 10min

Madison Caprara:

Hey, Nocky! Why don’t you give me a brief introduction to yourself and your work for folks reading at home?

Nocky Dinh:

I’m Nocky Dinh and I’m currently a freelance 2D + 3D motion designer. In the past few years, I have mostly focused on 3D works. I strive to tell compelling stories with a cinematic approach and pleasing composition.

Madison Caprara:

I see you are originally from Vietnam, was there anything cultural-specific you can think of that fueled your passion for motion graphic design and animation?

Nocky Dinh:

Yes, I went to school for Digital Filmmaking because I was watching some Vietnamese TV shows and realized that I wanted to contribute to my country’s film industry. When I was in film school, I only took one 3D class - in Maya - and two After Effects classes. I wasn’t very good at motion graphics during my school years at all. I graduated without knowing what easy ease is, to be honest. Being an international student, if I wanted to work in the U.S., I needed to score a job that would sponsor me immediately.

At the time, I noticed that there was a demand for motion graphics, so I promoted myself as an “editor with motion graphics skills.” Luckily, I found a full-time gig a few months afterward and learned everything motion graphics-related on the job. Slowly I moved away from doing editing and focused solely on motion graphics at the company. After six years, I decided to freelance to expand my horizons.

Nocky Dinh:

Lately, I’ve been trying to fuse my cultural background into my personal projects. I’ve been chasing the Western aesthetic for so long, as I’m getting older, I realized that my own background is full of inspiration to pull from as well.

“I’ve been chasing the Western aesthetic for so long…I realized that my own background is full of inspiration to pull from...”

Madison Caprara:

Is there anything special you’re working on now that you’d like to share?

Nocky Dinh:

Yes! Aside from client work, I’m currently working on another one for the Kokeshi dolls series. I’ve made one before featuring Frida Kahlo and this new one will be focusing on Van Gogh.

I recently read that in order to know something well enough, you need to explore it more than just one or two ways. Instead of working on just a one-off idea (which I’ve done in the past), now I am exploring the concept in several ways before I make a series out of it. I highly recommend everyone trying this mindset.

Madison Caprara:

That’s an interesting way to go about re-learning the actual learning process!

What are some of the best and worst aspects of working in the motion design and animation field that you’ve experienced?

Nocky Dinh:

Best aspect: you can create anything and not be constrained to real-life physics. Working in animation makes me slow down, observe, and appreciate the small things. For example, how people walk or how cloth flutters in the wind.

Worst aspect: people think it’s easy and often underestimate how long or how difficult it is to make something from nothing. They think in minutes, while I’m thinking in frames. Not to mention the “fix-it-in-post” way of thinking.

“A Moonlit Night” — By Nocky Dinh.

Madison Caprara:

Do you typically work remotely, or have you transitioned due to the pandemic?

Nocky Dinh:

I used to do a mixture of working remotely and being on-site. My dream is to be able to work completely remotely. Commuting is a waste of time and energy. Ever since the pandemic hit and lots of studios opened up to remote working, I have been able to collaborate with people from all over the world. It’s so refreshing because you realize how big the pool of talent is when not being limited within the U.S. or Canadian borders.

Madison Caprara:

How do you stay focused? What do you perceive as your biggest distraction?

Nocky Dinh:

I must always trick myself into working for just 15 minutes. After that initial 15 minutes, then I’m able to get in the zone. Sometimes, I’ll even become so into the work, that I need to schedule an alarm to remind myself to eat lunch. Having a routine has definitely helped me get into focus mode a little easier.

My biggest distraction is social media! I often put my phone faced down during work hours if I can.

Madison Caprara:

What studio, designer, or artist - dead or alive - would you want to have a Zoom meeting with? I’d say dinner, but you know…

“you can create anything and not be constrained to real-life physics.”

Nocky Dinh:

Hayao Miyazaki of Studio Ghibli. I think he needs no introduction.

Madison Caprara:

When you feel stuck, or are in need of some inspiration, what - or where - are your go-to’s?

Nocky Dinh:

I discovered that my brain tends to come up with ideas when it is in a relaxed state. Often time, I have “wow why can’t I think of that before”-solutions when I’m in a shower. However, it’s unrealistic to shower 20 times a day so mind-mapping works wonders when I need to dive deeper than the low-hanging fruit ideas.

I also look into the adjacent fields of motion design - such as photography, sculpture, museum installations, fiber arts - and I subscribed to some curated websites like The Colossal, HypeBeast, AIGA Eye on Design — where they curate all sorts of cool projects in lots of different fields. It’s important to look for inspiration in places outside of the direct connections to your work. You never know what could spark interesting ideas.

Nocky Dinh:
I recently read that Joyce N. Ho went to the library to look for inspiration for the Semi Permanent title sequence and I thought that was a fantastic idea. When things are open again, I can’t wait to venture into random sections of local libraries.

Madison Caprara:

Speaking on inspiration, is there anything particularly interesting you’re reading, watching, or listening to right now?

Nocky Dinh:

I’m re-listening to a podcast called, Hardcore History: Wrath of The Khans, by Dan Carlin. I highly recommend all the podcasts from him. I’m also reading, Thoughts on Design, by Paul Rand. It’s very interesting.

Madison Caprara:

Can you share one of your personal failures and what you learned from it?

“…my brain tends to come up with ideas when it is in a relaxed state…however, it’s unrealistic to shower 20 times a day…mind-mapping works wonders when I need to dive deeper than the low-hanging fruit ideas.”

Nocky Dinh:

My Psychedelic Hot Dog poster was done in 2016 but it was the most memorable failure that I had to date. I was doing an “everyday project” challenge where I worked on one of my 3D personal projects every day (though it’s not necessary to actually finish in a single day.) I was trying to model a hot dog and at the time, I did not know what a proper UV was in 3D for texturing, so I was struggling very hard to texture the buns correctly.

I was cycling through all the projections then it hit me: “hey, if I can’t get it to work properly, why don’t I take advantage of it being NOT correct?” and so this trippy texture came about. With some design in photoshop, I was able to turn it into something really interesting. The lesson I learned here is that sometimes if you cannot get something to work generally, turn it into something that works for you.

Madison Caprara:

What about three general habits to improve workflow? Or some insightful dos and don’ts?

“my entire career was built upon personal projects. they’re not just a calling card but also an exercise to discover who you are and what your voice is.”

Nocky Dinh:

1.) Be super organized with your project files. Label all the layers and objects in your scene.

2.) Take breaks and come back to the projects later. You’ll see things you didn’t see before.

3.) Save your projects in increments! In addition, also store your current working project files on Dropbox. There are times when the ‘delete history’ of Dropbox saves the day!

Madison Caprara:

Perfect! Well, do you have any closing advice, points, or statements you would like to share?

Nocky Dinh:

Personal projects. I cannot stress how important personal projects are for freelancers. My entire career was built upon personal projects. They’re not just a calling card but also an exercise to discover who you are and what your voice is. Don’t chase what’s trendy. Focus on what you like, and you will naturally find yourself different from others.

Also, in terms of work, it’s so important to be somebody who is fun to work with. I’ve seen people getting hired consistently because they are team players and easy to collaborate with, even if their skills are not at the top level. And vice versa, super talented people not getting hired again because they are difficult to work with.

Guest User 4/20/21 Guest User 4/20/21

Takeover Tuesday with Millie Woodcock

Q&A with Millie Woodcock: a freelance illustrator and designer who also animates for Lambda Films.

Q&A with Millie Woodcock
Read time: 5min

Madison Caprara:

So, how did you get into the illustration and motion design game? Did choosing it as a career path click immediately or did it take some self-exploration?

Millie Woodcock:

As a kid, I had always loved drawing my favorite cartoon characters. Once I realized that this was an actual job, it stuck with me and I always wanted to go into an animation career. Illustration as a job came a little later after I studied animation, and then motion graphics came even later after I graduated. Motion graphics took a bit more self-exploration, I never really felt like I could fit in with traditional animation techniques and really took to the graphical styles of motion graphics. I had a few intern jobs after graduating, then managed to get a full-time role as a motion graphics animator. I’ve been working as an animator now for seven years and started freelancing three years ago.

Madison Caprara:

What kind of education did it take to get you where you are today? Looking back, are you for or against pursuing a formal education?

Millie Woodcock:

I did a BA in animation at Norwich University of the Arts. I think formal education is really down to the individual person. I don’t think I would have had the self-motivation at 18 to learn what I needed to learn with online courses. However, there are now so many online options run by industry professionals that it seems much easier to learn online. There weren’t as many of these when I went to University. There isn’t a right or wrong path into the industry.

Madison Caprara:

What are the best and worst aspects of working in the animation field?

“there isn’t a right or wrong path into the industry.”

Millie Woodcock:

The best part of my job is being able to work on many different projects, which means I get to explore different styles and approaches. I tend to get bored on a project if it lasts too long. Working in the commercial field of motion graphics keeps me on my toes as I don’t tend to be on a project that lasts more than a couple of months.

The worst aspect is that sometimes you can get some really tight deadlines where you feel like you don’t have time to think and consider your approach.

Madison Caprara:

Tell us a little more about your aesthetic. It’s so fun and almost...serene?

Millie Woodcock:

Thank you! I feel like my aesthetic is always developing. I do love playing with shapes, specifically in my character designs, I also love to play with proportions and perspectives.

Madison Caprara:

What is the craziest client or project experience you’ve had thus far?

“Attention Everyone” — Designed and Illustrated by Millie Woodcock; With Very True Story.

Millie Woodcock:

I have one that was a crazy project in a good way!

I was approached by the team at Very True Story to storyboard and design an animation that was scripted by 4th Graders. It was so much fun to bring their story to life.

Madison Caprara:

What is your all-time favorite animation or illustration and why?

Millie Woodcock:

It’s hard to pick but one of my all-time favorite animations is, My Moon, directed by Eusong Lee.

The story and design are both amazing, I never get bored of watching it.

Madison Caprara:

Are there any new trends that newbies (or even veterans) should be focusing on, in your opinion?

Millie Woodcock:

I feel like I’m seeing a lot of noisy gradients. I’ve even started to add them to my own work because I like how it looks. But, I don’t think it’s super important to have to focus too much on trends. If you see something you like, take inspiration from it and give it a go.

“I don’t think it’s super important to have to focus too much on trends. if you see something you like, take inspiration from it and give it a go.”

*“Opposites” — Illustrated by Millie Woodcock.*

Madison Caprara:

How has the pandemic affected your access to work?

Millie Woodcock:

I’ve been lucky to not have a decrease in work. I live in a small town and I think the pandemic opened up more remote freelancing work too.

Madison Caprara:

Do you foresee an increasing or decreasing demand for animators and illustrators now and in the coming years?

Millie Woodcock

At the moment, I feel like there has been an increased demand for animation work. I think where physical filming has been difficult to do during the pandemic, these projects have moved over to animation instead.

Madison Caprara:

Where or who do you turn to for inspiration?

Millie Woodcock:

I get inspiration from many places; being able to travel and socialize helps refresh my brain a lot, so this year I have found it a struggle to get the motivation to create personal work.

I also get inspiration from all of the artists I follow on social media; looking through my Instagram feed can help motivate me to create something. I now have a dog, he has occasionally inspired me to create some illustrations that feature him.

“don’t let imposter syndrome get in the way of putting something out there for people to see.”

Madison Caprara:

Do you have any closing advice, points, or statements you would like to share?

Millie Woodcock:

I personally struggle to finish personal pieces, so a piece of advice I really need to follow for myself is to finish something and move on. Don’t let imposter syndrome get in the way of putting something out there for people to see.

Guest User 4/13/21 Guest User 4/13/21

Takeover Tuesday with Zoë Soriano

Q&A with Zoë Soriano: a freelance Motion Designer + Animator currently living in Washington, DC.

Q&A with Zoë Soriano
Read time: 10min

“I put my dreams on the back burner for a while…”

Madison Caprara:

So, what originally led you to pursue a career in motion design and animation?

Zoë Soriano:

Growing up, I absolutely loved animated movies. One of my favorites was Over the Hedge. On a particularly long road trip when I was maybe eight or nine years old, I decided to watch the behind-the-scenes recap on how the movie was made. It was at that point that I realized that making animations was an actual job that people could have. Over the years, it was instilled in me that my career path should be “realistic,” meaning maths or sciences, so when it came time to pick coursework in high school, I decided to go heavy on math and took essentially all AP STEM classes while avoiding art classes like the plague.

I put my dreams on the back burner for a while and even did two years in college of math coursework before I decided to take an art class for credit my sophomore year. In that art class, I fell in love with creating and drawing; things I imagined being manifested on paper. At that point, I knew that art/animation was something I didn’t want to compromise on anymore, so I transferred to an art school and really began learning animation!

Madison Caprara:

Was there ever a point where you doubted that career path?

Zoë Soriano:

Absolutely. There were two major moments that I felt huge amounts of doubt. The first was when I first transferred to MICA — I was surrounded by so many talented folks that I was really overwhelmed. Having only taken one art class prior, I felt behind in comparison to my peers. A majority of them had been drawing since they were young, they’d been honing their skills for way longer than I had. I felt at that moment that I made a huge mistake. That I would never catch up to them.

The second major moment was after I held a couple of jobs in motion graphics, I had been working as a motion designer for about a year professionally. All the while, I felt very dissatisfied and unfulfilled. Art school really sets you up to work on projects from start to finish, to have ownership of the projects you do. I felt like I was a “pixel pusher,” just churning out keyframes like a machine. During this time, I felt I had two real choices: 1.) Go freelance and see if having more control made me feel better, or 2.) Change careers to a job that I lacked a passion for, but would ultimately pay the bills so that I could work on passion projects on the side. It was a really tough decision but I ultimately decided to go freelance and I’m so happy I did.

Madison Caprara:

Is there any specific experience you can recall that has directly contributed to your established style or process?

Zoë Soriano:

I think as a whole, going to art school and being surrounded by so many different types of art was really formative to me. I’ve always been drawn to the motion design and animations that incorporate layering mixed-media textures, 3D elements, and 2D cel animations. I attribute it to being able to experiment with all of those mediums at MICA.

Another HUGE thing for me was working at Franc - my first job out of college. On my first day back in 2018, they asked me to create a “Welcome, Zoë” animation. I made some designs, they looked at them and really critiqued my color palette. At first, I was a bit shocked because I really liked the palette I chose, but they challenged me to pick only three or four colors and experiment with those shades. Ever since then, I’ve formed most of my color palettes around three main colors. Now, I even consider myself “strong” at colors.

*“Nike: Self-Care Saturday” by Zoë Soriano.*

Madison Caprara:

What has been your absolute favorite project? Tell us a bit about the creative process and subsequent reception by either the client or your personal following.

Zoë Soriano:

Ooo, this is tough because every project is my favorite as soon as I finish it! But I would say my all-time favorite project would be the first freelance piece I did when I went full-time. It was with the Miami Freedom Project - two sisters. The budget was tight, and so was the timeline, but I really put my heart and soul into it. It was the first time that someone asked me to do a project from start to finish; doing the art direction, character, designs, animation, even the sound design.

The project was about getting Latine folks in Miami to vote. MFP wanted to create this story about an Abuela and her grandson. They had a rough idea of what they wanted. The Abuela and Grandson would be going about their day and ultimately at the end, they go and vote together - socially distanced, of course (this was for the November 2020 election).

Zoë Soriano:
They sent me a bunch of photos to help shape this world — photos of their own Abuelas and trinkets to put in the scenes. Using the photos as a reference point, I created a bright and colorful palette around the vibrancy of Latine and Miami culture. Due to the quick time restraints, I opted to do more of a limited animation style and focused on creating textured and vibrant illustrations for the piece.

I look back at what I made a year ago, and while I know it’s not perfect - I can still see imperfections - I look at it quite fondly because it was something I really committed myself fully to. I really wanted to bring these characters to life and tell their story as best as I could. Miami Freedom Project absolutely loved the finished product. They actually told me that it made them really emotional (in a good way!) to see a character design based on their Abuela. Being able to evoke such strong, positive emotions is always a rewarding feeling because as an artist, all I want when someone looks at my work is to feel something.

“being able to evoke such strong, positive emotions is always a rewarding feeling because as an artist, all I want when someone looks at my work is to feel something.”

Madison Caprara:

What do you believe is the key ingredient for a consistent, successful final project?

Zoë Soriano:

Organization and clear communication are the salt and pepper for consistently successful projects! I’ve always been a fairly organized person, but once I went freelance and was in charge of a lot of my own project management, it was really important for me to make sure I had correct deadlines and that I could find all the files I needed.

Madison Caprara:

I see that you have a deep passion for activism, particularly regarding social and environmental issues. How have your personal beliefs affected projects you take on or clients you work with?

Zoë Soriano:

As an activist, it’s super important to me to put work out into the world that I feel makes a difference. When I first started off with freelance, I was very fortunate that my first project was with the Wall Street Journal for their Future of Transportation project. It opened the door for me to then work with GRTMA, the Greater Redmond Transit Management Association, where I worked on an informative project about how GRTMA was fighting for new bike lanes to be built. As someone who is passionate about environmental issues, I was really excited to take this on as I’m a huge supporter of alternative modes of transportation. When I’m really excited about a project, I really put my heart and soul into the designs.

Madison Caprara:

In the freelance game, there can be extended periods of downtime. What do you recommend doing to keep your skills sharp during these times?

Zoë Soriano:

Always learning! I’m currently in a busy period, but in December, I had a few weeks of lull and I spent the time researching new plug-ins and testing them out. It’s super important to do work for yourself during these times.

Also, it helps to maintain your routine, at least for two to three days of the week during lull periods. Replace working on client projects with learning a tutorial or doing a personal project. Non-work-related hobbies are something I really enjoy indulging in during my downtime; learning a new language or reading a good book are ways I keep my mind sharp and help me keep creative energy without actually making.

Madison Caprara:

How has the pandemic affected your access to work?

Zoë Soriano:

I went freelance during the pandemic, so far, the flow of work has been fairly steady! In 2019, I did try to do the freelance thing, but I didn’t get past 2 months before panicking that no work was coming in and decided to go back to full-time work. The pandemic has been extremely helpful for me in getting work because a lot of companies are now open to remote work, and are willing to work with folks from other states, so it’s been nice in the way that I’m not limited to my city.

“non-work-related hobbies are something I really enjoy indulging in during my downtime; learning a new language or reading a good book are ways I keep my mind sharp and help me keep creative energy without actually making.”

Madison Caprara:

Where do you go for inspiration?

Zoë Soriano:
Instagram, Behance, and Dribbble are my main sources of direct design/motion inspiration, but I also find a lot of inspiration in everyday life and other forms of art. Whenever I’m working on a personal project, I draw a lot of inspiration from my personal life which is why a lot of the stuff I do tends to be character-based. I also collect “Art of _____” books - I have all the Disney and Pixar books, and am beginning my collection of Studio Ghibli books. The concept art in these books is quite incredible and the color palettes inspire me greatly.

Madison Caprara:

Favorite and least favorite aspect of this industry?

Zoë Soriano:

Favorite: Community - being able to talk with folks about their experiences and their willingness to share.

Least favorite: The hold system and how male-dominated the industry is.

Madison Caprara:
Do you have any closing advice, points, or statements you would like to share?

Zoë Soriano:

Remember to take time outside of work to cultivate your hobbies and relationships! Having breaks from work is essential for your mental health.

Guest User 4/10/21 Guest User 4/10/21

Q&A with Dotti and Sammy of Golden Wolf

We chatted with Dotti Sinnott and Sammy Moore of Golden Wolf: an Emmy-nominated animation studio founded in 2013 with offices in both London and New York.

Q&A with Dotti Sinnott and Sammy Moore
Read time: 15min

[SPEAKER]:

This call is being recorded.

Dotti Sinnot:

Oh.

Mack Garrison:

We’re super fancy.

Mack Garrison:

Haha. Well, Dotti, Sammy thank you both for agreeing to be interviewed for the dash bash. Maybe a good first place to start would be about how you two got involved with Golden Wolf, and a little run down on what led up to the New York office.

Dotti Sinnot:

Yeah. Well, I can take this one Sammy, but feel free to jump in.

Sammy and I met at Golden Wolf, I started a month after him. He was a designer in his trial period and I had come on as a freelance producer right after my move to London. I had gone there without a job or anything lined up, just a lot of people to contact. Golden Wolf was one of the first places that I had a meeting at and I wound up never leaving.

Dotti Sinnot:

At the time, the studio was in its early phases. Golden Wolf was first started as the motion arm of the design studio, ILOVEDUST. The core team members have been working together for over a decade, even though Golden Wolf has only been around since 2013. It's an interesting team dynamic in that you have these people who have been with the company for years, even before the company existed. Eventually, the two studios moved in different directions between the animation and design arms. The design studio was based in the south of England, the animation studio was in London. There was this cultural shift between the two cities they were in, and they ultimately decided to start Golden Wolf as its own thing so that we could grow into our personality and develop the studio with the creative vision of Erlingsson.

Dotti Sinnott:

When I started, there were around 15 people. We've slowly been growing since. The studio always had a huge client base in the US, I was regularly working with Nike and Disney on the west coast. We dealt with a lot of challenges with time zones. We knew there would eventually be a need for us to expand to the US, there had been plans thrown around that never stuck until we finally had an American on staff.

Mack Garrison:

There you go.

Dotti Sinnot:

Yeah, had that good passport. I was in London for two years and ultimately decided that I wanted to move back to New York. When I went to the office and told the guys I was moving, Ingy said, “well you don't have to leave the company. Why don't we try and start something in New York?” So, for the first year, Golden Wolf NY was three feet around me at any point in time. That was three years ago. Now we have five people in the New York office and are still expanding. We're still working closely with London. We tend to work as a one studio mentality and put the artists who’re most appropriate for a project on it regardless of location.

Mack Garrison:

That's so cool. That had to be kind of jarring to be like, “all right, I'm quitting my job, and all of a sudden, I'm going to run a studio in New York.”

*“Apple Icon” — Created by Golden Wolf.*

Dotti Sinnot:

It was not how I expected that conversation to go. I came out of it and I was like, “Did I quit or did I get a promotion? I think both.”

Mack Garrison:

That's great. Sammy, how about you? Were you part of that original crew?

Sammy Moore:

So, I wasn't part of that original inner circle, I'm almost six years in now at Golden Wolf. Before joining, I was in and out of the freelance design and illustration circuit after traveling and graduation. I lived in Australia for a while, and then figured I'd move back to have a go at a proper freelance career. It took me two to three months to realize it wasn't for me. I hated it, I didn't like working by myself. Once I realized that, it was obvious what I needed to do. I don't know how many people actually know this but I didn't know who Golden Wolf was before I applied.

Mack Garrison:

That's great.

“...the one thing that we don't want to change is the quality of work that we're doing...knowing that every piece that we put out the door is the best possible piece that we can do with the time and resources we have.”

Sammy Moore:

Yeah, it's mad. Don't tell Ingi I said that. I told him I was a big fan.

I was browsing Twitter looking for something and stumbled over the design studio that Dotti mentioned. They had retweeted a call for a full-time illustrator and designer at Golden Wolf. I looked them over and instantly fell in love. The work back then was incredible. It's even better now. I headed down for an interview on a Thursday and started on the next Monday. The rest is history, man. I was in the studio for a while as a designer, illustrator. After about a year, I started moving into the art direction, which I've been doing for several years now. Then, as Dotti said, we met on a terrible job. Remember that one, Dotti?

“the good stories come from the shit jobs.”

*“Workspace SL20” — Created by Golden Wolf.*

Dotti Sinnott:

Yeah.

Sammy Moore:

So bad, but we bonded over that pretty quickly.

Dotti Sinnott:

I think that both of us were pretending we knew what we were doing.

Mack Garrison:

What is it about the trenches that bring people together?

Sammy Moore:

The good stories come from the shit jobs. I knew that Dotti was heading off, then Ingy had a similar conversation with me. He asked if it was a big partaking for her to set things up alone. One thing that we're proud of is the effort and consideration we put into the studio culture. It's all about making sure that there's space for people to feel like they can contribute. For that reason, we wanted to ensure that when we set up in the States, we’d carry over the same ethos we had in the London studio. That’s what makes Golden Wolf so special; the attitude we take towards the work. Our CD was pretty confident that between Dotti and I, we’d be able to do that. We decided that Dotti would handle production and I would handle creative. Now we're here coming up on three years.

Mack Garrison:

That's wild. Having a set culture is important. Having people that you like to hang out with, that you feel close with. If you don't like working with the people you're there with, the work is going to suffer from it. How do y'all go about trying to maintain that same culture that you had in the London office? Do you feel like it is still pretty similar, or are there nuances with each office?

Sammy Moore:

I feel like the last six months have seen a significant shift in the culture. As Dotti said, she was by herself for a while. We brought on two junior designers, one left, and then I came over. It's hard to set up a culture when there are only three of you because we were slammed all the time, running around.

You need to have a few more bodies in the room, just to have a bit more opportunity to bounce off each other and share things. Now we're sitting at five, it feels so different. There are more conversations and ideas. With 4+, you can finally start to enforce culture. Enforce isn't the right word, you can start encouraging the kind of dynamics and attitudes we have in London.

Mack Garrison:

That's a great answer. I remember when we first started dash. It was Cory, myself, and then we had our one illustrator, Meg. Poor Meg. She was the first person to join our team. It was just Cory and I arguing about what we should do and then Meg also trying to figure it out on her own. You don't have any culture when it's new, you know?

Was there ever a directive on what to grow the studio into? Were you all thinking about where you wanted your office to go, to become, the size? Or, was it more natural than that?

Dotti Sinnott:

We've thought a lot about how we want to grow things and what feels right for us. I think the key for us, regardless of what the studio eventually winds up looking for, the one thing that we don't want to change is the quality of work that we're doing. It could look different, it could be in a completely different style, but the thing that we want to hold true is that quality bar; knowing that every piece that we put out the door is the best possible piece that we can do with the time and resources we have.

That's something that can evolve in a lot of different ways. So, I don't think we'll ever get to the point where we're a huge production hub just churning out pieces. We're always going to think carefully about the projects we take on, what they mean for us as a studio, and how they represent our capabilities.

“being in the trenches together is what connects you, and being asked to move out of your comfort zone is when you grow as coworkers and as people who need to rely on each other...those are the chances where it's more powerful for the people working together than just the work itself.”

Dotti Sinnott:

To your earlier question, we understand that, while we're creating a culture that is reflective of what is in London it's never going to be exactly the same. We're different people with different cultural backgrounds. One of the nice things about having come from London is that the studio is multicultural. There are people from all over Europe with many different languages being spoken in that office. In New York, we have the opportunity to have the same; everybody coming on from different places, having different perspectives. That culture of creating quality can hold true despite any of those differences. So, a big piece of it is that we will be different, but we're always going to be Golden Wolf because we're going to do the best that we possibly can.

Sammy Moore:

Yeah, I couldn’t agree more. That's well said.

Mack Garrison:

I'm sure a lot of other smaller shops feel the same way. I look at what you all are doing with Golden Wolf and I get jealous of the fact that you can be picky about the work that you take on.

Mack Garrison:

How did you guys found yourselves positioning Golden Wolf to get to the point where you could be more selective about the work you're taking on? Was that gradual with time, or can you equate it back to a specific project?

*“Good Luck on the 25th” — Created by Golden Wolf.*

Dotti Sinnott:

Starting, you're always going to take on jobs just to get one step further. We have done our fair share of projects that weren't what we would choose to do today, but they were the option that we had at the time. A lot of it was luck, we were positioned in a certain space in the industry. We had a point of view that people were interested in learning more about and getting more of. So, there was this great happenstance when we were ready to move forward at a time that the industry was also looking for someone like us. It’s hard to quantify why that happened. It just did, and we feel lucky that we're there now to enjoy that space. For a while, we were able to take on projects that were cool but weren't the biggest budget. Or, they were for a client that we were interested in working with but maybe not exactly the creative that we wanted to do. We’d take them on anyway, just to work with those clients.

Dotti Sinnott:

We’d do a lot of small projects, all at once. I would be producing 10 to 15 jobs at a time while we had another producer and our CD also running projects. Maybe it was the way production ran, the visual style we developed, or the client relationships. We acknowledged these for every job and tried to direct them to new requests coming through; what did we learn from the previous projects? Is this an opportunity to try and do things better than we did last time? We kept building on it.

“animation is not something done in a vacuum. it’s not done by one person. it takes a huge team.”

So they were stepping stones. After doing different types of work, we started seeing what fit and what didn't; what was worth the extra investment. Animation is not something done in a vacuum. It's not done by one person. It takes a huge team, and a big reason why Golden Wolf is so successful is that everyone on that team is willing to put in more than the 9 to 5. We all work extra hours, all of us put in more time and heart than you would at a job with a better work/life balance. But we do it because we care about making something really great, and that’s the piece of culture we think about when hiring; is this person someone who is going to get the work done and leave at the end of the day? Or, are they someone who is going to get the work done and then think about how they can do it better tomorrow? That's the person we want to hire, the team we want to build, and the projects we try to take on.

Mack Garrison:

I'm pumped. I feel like I just got a virtual pep talk. I'm going to hang up the phone to make some animation. Like, “oh, I'm doing it for Dotti. I'm going to kill it for Dotti.”

Sammy Moore:

Yeah, right on.

Dotti Sinnott:

That's what makes my job easy, the people that I work with. Sammy and I were both talking about how, over the weekend, we were thinking about a current project with a few bumps in the road. I fell asleep last night and it popped into my head as I was putting my head onto the pillow. That happens to us all the time. We live and breathe this work.

Mack Garrison:

I like the idea of bringing in people. It's hard these days, everyone gets caught up on social media. They see the best of everyone's lives being put forward. It's easy to get caught up with instant fame or putting your work out. I think there's going to be a lot of students at the dash bash who are looking for a career in motion, so let’s talk a little bit more about what you were just saying.

What do you look for when looking at someone coming out of school? What are you looking for in a portfolio? What advice would you give graduating students to get on Golden Wolf's radar?

Sammy Moore:

We've had a lot of conversations, since Commotion because we saw such great work. Variety is always good, but I think one of the things we’re keen to see is when people want to push the boundaries and try new things. It's a passion thing, for sure. It sounds a bit cliché, but the only way we're able to achieve the level of finish and consistently, to draw clients back, is because the work we do is such high quality and pushes the boundaries in exploration.

In terms of a more specific kind of skill you can see from looking at a portfolio...variety. We have some people come to us with portfolios where it's all very similar. To be honest, when I had my interview with our CD, he genuinely had a concern. My work was good but all very similar. Something we pride ourselves on at Golden Wolf that is super valuable is the ability to work in different styles and adapt to different briefs. You see some students who can get a little bit caught up in trying to establish a style or figure out what their aesthetic is. Honestly, if I look at a portfolio and it's got variety, I'm into it straight away. You see that a person can work in several different ways and they instantly become more valuable.

“sometimes you just need a little bit more time to figure out whether you're the type of person who wants to be a specialist doing the same thing or you want to be a generalist with a little taste of everything. and both opportunities are good.”

Mack Garrison:

That's a really good point. For a while, people have said you need to be a specialist. I know when we're looking for folks to come onboard at dash, particularly because we're a small office, there's a necessity for everyone to do a bit of everything. You might have an animator who is doing some pre-production one day and style frames another day. They may even come up with ideas for a script. It's all over the place. So, when interviewing folks, we look for more of a generalist. If you can be talented in a multitude of different things, it shows me you're willing to explore new stuff. If I want someone to hire us for a particular thing, maybe that's better for freelance potentially, but I don't know if it's best when trying to be full-time within a studio. Would you all agree with that?

Sammy Moore:

Yes.

Dotti Sinnott:

Yeah, especially for a small studio, it's helpful to have people who can do a little bit of everything. Even if they're not great at it all, the fact that they're willing to try says a lot for a team. Being in the trenches together is what connects you, and being asked to move out of your comfort zone is when you grow as coworkers and as people who need to rely on each other. So those times where you need to jump in and do something different are when you’re proving that you're there to help. Even if you can't do it perfectly, it's better than not having anybody to do it.

Those are the chances where it's more powerful for the people working together than just the work itself. Another thing that gets glossed over when you go to school events, sometimes you're not going to get the right job immediately after graduating. It may take a while to figure out what your path is, and that's okay. There are a lot of different ways to get from point A to B, it's not always a straight path. I went to school for English and French. I wound up working at an Apple store and then in HR. Now I'm the executive producer of an animation studio. How did that happen?

Dotti Sinnott:

All of those things building on each other gave me this experience and helped me grow. Even if I wasn't able to do exactly what I wanted right out of school, I used the opportunities to learn as much as I could where I was while trying to work towards the next thing. Sometimes you just need a little bit more time to figure out whether you're the type of person who wants to be a specialist doing the same thing or you want to be a generalist with a little taste of everything. And both opportunities are good.

Mack Garrison:

I love that.

Sammy Moore:

At Commotion, I could see the pressure that a lot of these kids were putting on themselves to launch out of school and get straight into a role to start building experience. When I first graduated, I worked at the Nike store selling basketball shoes for a year before I moved to Golden Wolf. While working at Nike - I'm a real fanboy - I started doing personal projects because I wanted to work with them as a freelancer. Those projects ended up being the stuff that stuck out to Golden Wolf because they were doing so much work with Nike at the time. Now I'm here.

There's no way I could have foreseen that happening. But all that time I spent selling sneakers was worth it, it gave my voice and my story a different trajectory when compared to anybody else's. Stumbling through and getting some experience is a lot more realistic and to be encouraged, rather than putting pressure on yourself to get that job at work or whatever. You've got to get out there and figure out what you want to do. There's no time cap on that. You've got to do it at your own pace.

*“What’s Your Style?” — Created by Golden Wolf.*

Mack Garrison:

There's so much pressure when you're coming out of school to get in the game quickly. But, taking time off, traveling a little bit, clearing your head, figuring out what you're into; I think that all pays huge dividends. Or in your case, living out in the middle of nowhere in Australia.

Dotti Sinnott:

Just don't ask him about the kangaroos.

Mack Garrison:

Well, I don't want to keep you all too long. I know we covered a lot and I asked all the questions. Aside from coming to hang out with your favorite friends in North Carolina, is there a teaser for what you guys might speak about or anything you're looking forward to touching on?

Dotti Sinnott:
Right now, we’re just making a list of things that we could start talking about, we figured over the summer we'd start to dig into it a little bit more. All that to say, we don't know where we're going to be in a few months.

*“Brown Skin” — Created by Golden Wolf.*

Mack Garrison:

The best thing about this festival is that it might be the first time anyone is allowed to go hang out with other people, which to me is just amazing that they would choose our conference to come to do that at.

Dotti Sinnott:

I'm excited to see how weird everyone is with other people when we finally get out of this.

Mack Garrison:

Just a bunch of socially-awkward folks. I mean animators and designers are kind of introverts already haha. I'm looking forward to hanging out with you all, assuming everything goes to plan.

Sammy Moore:

Sounds great, man.

Dotti Sinnott:

Yeah, it sounds awesome. Let us know if you need anything else from us.

Mack Garrison:

Absolutely. You know what I need Sammy? Dotti is going to kill me because I know she hasn't gotten any yet, but I still want some of that hot sauce you were promising me about from down in Savannah.

Sammy Moore:

There is a bottle in the fridge with your name on it, man. I promise.

Mack Garrison:

I love it. I'm stoked.

Sammy Moore:

You know what? I'm going to bring you two bottles.

Mack Garrison:

Two bottles? You animal. Cool, well thank you all for hanging. It's good to catch up again.

Sammy Moore:

Yeah, likewise.

Dottie Sinnott:

For sure!

Mack Garrison:

We'll talk soon.

Guest User 4/6/21 Guest User 4/6/21

Takeover Tuesday with Joey Judkins

Q&A with Joey Judkins: an animator and art director from Columbus, Ohio.

Q&A with Joey Judkins
Read time: 5min

Madison Caprara:

So, how did you get into your medium? Did it immediately click or take some exploration?

Joey Judkins:

It's hard to answer this only because it's hard to say what my "medium" is! I started drawing at a very early age, now I'm working in 2D and 3D on all kinds of projects. I'd say 3D definitely took some exploration and practice to learn, but after doing so much 2D character animation, I was happy to find that 3D character animation came relatively naturally to me once I knew the tools in C4D and Maya.

Madison Caprara:

Was there ever a point where you doubted your career path?

Joey Judkins:

All the time! When I was an illustration student in college, I wondered if it was a good idea to pursue illustration as a career. When I was a full-time caricature artist at a theme park, I wondered if it was a good idea to continue doing that, so I applied for a job as a video specialist which was a mix of motion design and videography at a church. After that, I doubted if being on a church staff forever was a good career move, so I took a staff job at a motion design studio.

I didn't really have a plan to leave any of those jobs until I had a healthy dose of doubt about them. Finally, after going freelance, I can say I've had less and less doubt about my career path. But the occasional fear that "this might not last forever" and "one day I won't have any work" still springs up. So I try to get through those fears by working on personal projects that excite me and challenge me creatively.

“the occasional fear that ‘this might not last forever’ and ‘one day I won't have any work’ still springs up. so I try to get through those fears by working on personal projects that excite me and challenge me creatively.”

Madison Caprara:

I see that you teach on the side, is that something you recommend doing for all creatives? What have been the most difficult and most rewarding aspects of teaching?

Joey Judkins:

I wouldn't necessarily recommend it for all creatives, I think there's something inside people who want to teach that compels them to do so. It's extremely rewarding when you know you've helped someone learn something, so that's the driving force behind wanting to teach. It's not a bad way to earn side income either, but it definitely takes a lot of work organizing your thoughts, feeling comfortable filming yourself and your process while, and then editing it down to something digestible for people to watch. Anyone who has tried to record themselves making tutorials understands that struggle.

Madison Caprara:

What have YOU learned about animation and what lessons have you incorporated into your work/life from teaching and working alongside your students?

Joey Judkins:

One thing I've learned from teaching is that everyone learns differently. Also, just because someone else may have a course similar to yours, that doesn't mean you shouldn't put your own voice out there and allow someone to learn from your unique style and approach. You always learn a little while you're teaching; it's almost like extra practice.

Madison Caprara:

Advice for those just beginning their journey: for or against the formal education route?

Joey Judkins:

This one is tough - I cannot say that someone wouldn’t benefit from a formal education in art or animation, because I'm speaking from the experience of someone who went to art school. I can say that in today's world, however, there are so many more avenues for learning online than there were when I went to school and that formal education has only gotten more and more expensive (but not necessarily better). Let's put it this way: If and when my daughter decides she wants to be an animator, I'm not going to let her go into massive debt to do it - I'll do my best to help her find an online solution. And when all is said and done, the best artists out there (whether self-taught, formally educated, or online) are going to succeed by putting in the work and being diligent.

Madison Caprara:

In the freelance game, there can be extended periods of downtime. What do you recommend doing to keep your skills sharp during these times?

Joey Judkins:

I always recommend having a running list of downtime projects; stuff you've wanted to learn, shots you want to work on to stretch your skills in one direction or another. One thing I'll say is that it's tempting to try to learn something based on fear (someone might not hire me if I don't learn X or Y), but I recommend learning something that aligns with your actual interests and what kind of work you want to do. Chase your desires, not your fears!

Madison Caprara:

What has been your favorite project, whether personal or paid? What about it really stuck with you?

Joey Judkins:

Another REALLY hard one! I'm going to say my Ultraboy animation (circa 2016) is one of my favorites because it represents so much about my artistic journey. When I first started, I knew no 3D whatsoever, but I had ideas for little stories and even video games. I came up with the character Ultraboy as a kind of homage to Megaman.

For a time, he existed only as a character design sketch in my sketchbook. I had ideas for ways he could use light and powers, and storyboards for fun little sequences to animate. The only problem is I had no idea how to actually do any of that. Over time, I learned 3D modeling, rigging, lighting, animation, and Octane rendering. The idea for Ultraboy came back to my mind, so I took a crack at it. Finally, what was in my head for so long was achievable thanks to new skills.

Madison Caprara:

Where do you go for inspiration?

Joey Judkins:

Honestly, I find a lot of inspiration on Pinterest, Behance, and (gasp) Dribbble! I remember people kind of flocking away from Dribbble a while ago, but it's still good for a quick idea or two.

“it's extremely rewarding when you know you've helped someone learn something, so that's the driving force behind wanting to teach.”

Madison Caprara:

How are you doing in this post-covid world? What are you doing now to achieve that necessary balance between work and sustainability in your life? How would you recommend fellow creatives go about prioritizing the work-life balance?

“the best artists out there…are going to succeed by putting in the work and being diligent.”

Joey Judkins:

I wouldn't necessarily call the world "post-Covid" yet, but I'm doing ok! I'm actually thankful I'm in a field where there is a large amount of flexibility on time and work situations. I can feel free to make my own schedule, pick up my kids from school, hang out at the house or at my own office when I need to. My wonderful wife does most of the work in order to allow me to have this kind of job though - she's a ninja without whom none of this would be possible.

If you're another creative and you are interested in having a family with kids, the biggest thing is figuring out a system and solid communication to divide and conquer work and life. If you don't have kids yet, you have the high ground in this industry, don't forget that. So it's up to you what you want to focus your life and attention on. It's hard to navigate how much "extra" time I should be putting into work - to learn, teach, make more money, whatever - while my children are here in my house, because eventually they will be grown, and I do not want to feel like I missed my chance to be a good dad to them.

Madison Caprara:

Do you have any closing advice, points, or statements you would like to share?

Joey Judkins:

If you're a freelancer, the best piece of advice I can give is to be a good communicator and always be reliable. Always do what you say you are going to do - it keeps your clients happy and keeps them coming back to you over and above your other skills.

“it's tempting to try to learn something based on fear…but I recommend learning something that aligns with your actual interests and what kind of work you want to do. chase your desires, not your fears!”

Guest User 3/30/21 Guest User 3/30/21

Takeover Tuesday with Bárbara Nozari

Wrapping up our Women’s History Month's, Takeover Tuesday’s is Bárbara Nozari! Bárbara is a motion designer and character animator based in Brazil.

Q&A with Bárbara Nozari
Read time: 5min

Why did you choose your profession?

I don't have a specific answer to that. Motion design was something that piqued my interest, I soon realized I didn't want to do anything else.

How did you go about starting out?

I had studied advertising in college, I thought I would work as an art director in some advertising agency. At some point, I started as an intern at a web tv company. I did everything; graphic design, short scripts, filming, editing. After that internship, I got a job in broadcast television as a film editor while making some broadcast identity and animation packages on the side. My interest in animation grew and I started to study more (I was always a self-learner). From there, I started to nail some animation jobs and never stopped.

“(women’s history month) represents a month to remember that we women are very strong. that we’ve gotten more rights and equality through struggle. that this fight must not stop.”

What does Women’s History Month mean to you?

To me, it represents a month to remember that we women are very strong. That we’ve gotten more rights and equality through struggle. That this fight must not stop.

Why is it significant in 2021, particularly?

Even in the 21st century we still see a lot of gender inequality, violence against women, and cultural rights that benefit only men while punishing women.

What do you love most about what you do?

I love creating things. Being able to experiment with shapes, styles, colors, and ideas; to look at all that and smile is what makes me happy.

What would you change?

The industries of illustration, animation, and cinema have always been very masculine. I never knew the reason, but fortunately, this has begun to change. Today we can see a greater diversity of gender and ethnicity. If I could, I would change the fact that a creative’s sex, gender, ethnicity, etc. doesn't matter when landing a job, but the quality of work alone.

Tell me about a woman you look up to and why.

I admire my mother. She is a very wise, strong woman. As a child, she was poor but always struggled to work hard. She taught me right from wrong.

“I love creating things. being able to experiment with shapes, styles, colors, and ideas; to look at all that and smile is what makes me happy.”

What’s the best career (or life) advice you have received?

I never received any advice, but I always tell my eldest daughter that she should choose a profession or job that will make her happy. This is the most important thing for me.

Do you have any advice for young women first starting out in this industry?

For the girls who are just starting out, I tell them not to be afraid to hear “no” or to hear heavy criticism. Use this to better your work and always study, because nobody but yourself will teach you how to do things.

Do you currently prioritize your work-life balance? If so, how?

I try to prioritize having a balance. This makes me both work harder on the job and acknowledge happy moments when I'm with my family or doing a hobby.

I like to organize my schedules to always keep my commitments and activities at consistently set times. And when I have to work late, I always talk to my children so that they understand.

What barriers are women still facing in the industry? How do you think they can go about breaking them down?

We still see more men than women in animation studios and in advertising agencies. In order to change this scenario, we as women have to show ourselves more, publicize our work, expand our network, and refer other women whenever we can.

“…not to be afraid to hear ‘no’ or to hear heavy criticism. use this to better your work and always study, because nobody but yourself will teach you how to do things.”

Where do you go for inspiration?

Sometimes the inspiration comes from my children's games, or maybe from a landscape I saw. Mostly, it comes from normal things seen throughout my day.

Any closing points, advice, or statement you would like to share?

Don't be ashamed of who you are, where you come from, and what makes you happy.

“we still see more men than women in animation studios and in advertising agencies…we as women have to show ourselves more, publicize our work, expand our network, and refer other women whenever we can.”

Animation by Bárbara Nozari.