The Importance of Self-Branding with Zack Davenport
Read on to gain insight into Zack Davenport’s thoughts about the importance of self-branding. Zack is the Founding Designer at Hellosaurus, an interactive video platform for kids.
In the past, he’s worked in-house at Vimeo, Foursquare, and Vine (RIP), and freelanced for companies like Nickelodeon and HQ Trivia.
Q&A with Zack Davenport
Read time: 10min
“JC’s Pizza Cave,” Created by Zack Davenport.
Mack Garrison:
Let’s start with a little bit about you. Tell us about how you got into the design industry and what led you to Vimeo.
Zack Davenport:
I started design as a hobby back in high school and was interested in t-shirt design. Threadless.com was a big influence on me back then and designing t-shirts and getting feedback from the community was how I learned the basics quickly. I hadn’t considered making design into a career but eventually found myself in the college of design at NC State University studying Graphic Design. I was always in the print lab screen printing and doing letterpress which is where I imagined my career would go. A lot of the designers I looked up to were making a name for themselves up in New York, so I had a lot of aspirations in eventually moving there.
Senior year, I was starting to put my feelers out there, starting to apply for jobs. I ended up getting a job at Foursquare in New York, as a Communications Designer. My job started mostly in Marketing; working on print deliverables, direct mailers, and marketing assets. As I grew there, I started getting more into the visual design of the app itself; the branding, the iconography, doing all the stickers and badges for Foursquare's app. That got me interested in visual design and branding and eventually led to me looking for a new role. At the time, I was talking to one of the co-founders of Vine and he ended up hiring me as a Product and Brand Designer. Vine was an interesting moment for me because I got really into animation, motion design, and understanding how the two can go together. I got an appreciation of motion and how my designs can take a life of their own when animation is added.
When Vine folded, I wanted to continue in a role that was specifically for Brand Design, but I liked working with video and I wanted to find another similar role. When I started talking to Vimeo, the pieces just aligned. Now I've been there for a little over three years. I started as the only Brand Designer on the team, and now it has grown from just me and a copywriter to a team of around 15 people.
“motion is at the forefront of all of our design thinking.”
Mack Garrison:
I can't believe it's been three years. That's wild. I feel like it was just the other day, I remember you started Vimeo. Tell me, what is expected of a brand designer? What is the role of a Brand Designer at Vimeo?
Zack Davenport:
Brand Designers at Vimeo oversee all the design work and all the creative that goes out the door on the marketing and brand side. Any time there's a product launch, maybe there's a marketing campaign geared towards that, that would be the work that I oversee. Also, making sure that that work is up to Vimeo’s high standards.
A campaign or anything like that can touch a lot of different media. Anything you see on vimeo.com, when you're not a logged-in user, are pages that my team and I have designed and support. We design emails and videos. We have an in-house production team that we work very closely with. We have motion designers on that team that we work with as well. Though I'm not necessarily animating anymore at Vimeo, I am art directing those projects; working with motion designers who are much more talented than I am and using them and their abilities to elevate the work that we want to do.
Mack Garrison:
Let me ask you this, Zack. Naturally, within the motion design industry, we can steadily see the progression of our field as we've grown, and how much more complex it can become. As well as the different avenues you can take with it. How have you seen the brand design role shift because of motion?
Created by Zack Davenport.
Zack Davenport:
Yeah, totally. I think motion is at the forefront of all of our design thinking. As a video company, I'm working with developers to make sure that all of our landing pages can support embedded video. We want to use video in a way that gets people excited. We make sure that everything we put out there has a video-first mindset, in a lot of ways.
We just launched a new product called Vimeo Create, it's a way for small businesses to create short videos, more Instagram-style stories, and other social videos. We are working on a campaign for that right now.
Mack Garrison:
Do you have any tips on how freelancers or smaller studios should think about their brands?
Zack Davenport:
I think a lot of studios or individual freelancers don't think about branding at first, which makes sense. You want to focus on the client's work and everything. But branding yourself is a great way of making sure the client understands what they're getting when they work with you.
Mack Garrison:
I think one of the things that we were excited about when we started our branding project for Dash with you was a lot of surprising aspects that I don't think I would've thought of, had we gone at it on our own, versus bringing someone like you in.
Let's say someone out there wants to rebrand themselves. What would you encourage them to do first? What's the first thing you do when you're starting a branding project, whether it's freelance or something at Vimeo?
Zack Davenport:
Yeah, that's a great question. I think a lot of people don't understand the amount of thought that should go into a branding process, on the business owner side. For example, I'll get a lot of people reaching out asking for a rebrand or something like that. The first thing I'll do is send them the questionnaire that they should fill out. It's a lot of questions around: what is the long-term goal of the company? What's the short-term goal? What’s your company’s special sauce that separates you from your competitors?
These are all things that influence the brand. I think a lot of times, people don't quite understand when they reach out to a designer for a rebrand how much thought will have to come from them first, and how many questions internally they'll have to answer. I think it's a great process. Especially when you have business partners, it's kind of an opportunity to take a step back and align together, to make sure that you're both on the same page moving forward.
The biggest challenges with rebranding projects occur when that alignment doesn't happen in the beginning. All the answers to my questions inform the direction that I end up pitching to the client. If there isn’t an alignment at the beginning, then the brief isn't there, it isn't fleshed out. And it doesn't lead to the best results.
Zack Davenport bio picture.
Mack Garrison:
Can you give some more examples of the types of questions you may ask a new client?
Zack Davenport:
Yeah, sure! What are the personality traits that you want your company to embody? When a client is looking at your website, looking at your videos, what is the expected result of that? How do you want them to feel when they've seen it? I think also, having a clear understanding of where your brand lives in the world. If you're a bagel shop, you're going to have a different result in terms of branding process than you would for an agency that makes digital ads. All those areas where your brand lives are extremely important when approaching the design of a logo, of a type hierarchy, of color, and scale.
Mack Garrison:
I'm sure you've seen so many portfolios, either from vendors or people applying to jobs at Vimeo. What are some of the more egregious things that you see that people don't think about, that they should be 100% considering when they're building their website?
Zack Davenport:
To be honest, I think some of the more egregious stuff that I find on portfolio reviews and stuff like that is trying to overdo it. I think a lot of time the best answer for a portfolio is generally the most simple one.
Sometimes, over-designed portfolio websites can overshadow the work itself. I think that's the most important: your portfolio is meant to show off your work. Unless you are a web designer and you're applying for a job as a web designer, I think the web design portion of your portfolio should almost take a back seat, if that makes sense.
“branding yourself is a great way of making sure the client understands what they're getting when they work with you.”
Mack Garrison:
What are your thoughts on platforms like Instagram or social media in general? Do you feel like that's an important presence to have, as any designer, whether it's motion or static? Is there a necessity to have social media in that regard?
Dash mark and a supporting brand system created by Zack Davenport.
Zack Davenport:
I don't think there's anything wrong with having your work in as many places as you can. I still get a lot of client projects through Dribbble, for example. Especially for motion designers, having a portfolio on Vimeo and Instagram just makes sense. You never know who's looking or who could track your work down in various ways.
Mack Garrison:
Do you have any thoughts or ideas on what the future of designing a brand looks like? Any thoughts on things that either companies or freelancers should be cognizant of as we move into the next 10 years?
Zack Davenport:
I think about that question a lot. The tools that we, as designers, use regularly are constantly changing. Even the stuff that we were using five years ago isn't necessarily the stuff we're using today. You can't be attached to anything. One thing I've learned throughout my entire career is you have to be willing to embrace the next big thing or drop what you're doing based on client feedback and try the next thing.
Mack Garrison:
We just got back from a portfolio review down at SCAD. We had a lot of students who were asking about things they should think about when they get out of school. If you could advise yourself 10 years ago, what advice would you give?
“one thing I've learned throughout my entire career, is you have to be willing to embrace the next big thing...”
Zack Davenport:
I personally believe the best asset a designer can bring to a team is being a generalist; someone who has the skills and passion to solve the problem, no matter the medium. Be the person who can jump from branding to product design, from illustration to animation depending on the day. Focus on keeping nimble, keeping fresh, and creating a process that doesn't rely on specific tools. take advantage of the resources that you have available to you and keep challenging yourself to learn something new.
“focus on keeping nimble, keeping fresh, and creating a process that doesn't rely on specific tools.”
Mack Garrison:
Zack, this was great. I don't want to keep you too long. Any teasers for what you might be talking about at the dash bash? Have you given any thought to that yet?
Zack Davenport:
Been thinking a lot about it. I'm not going to tease anything yet. I have too many options.
Mack Garrison:
No, that sounds good, buddy. This was great, man. I appreciate you taking the time to hang out.
Gif created by Zack Davenport.
Q&A with Dotti and Sammy of Golden Wolf
We chatted with Dotti Sinnott and Sammy Moore of Golden Wolf: an Emmy-nominated animation studio founded in 2013 with offices in both London and New York.
Q&A with Dotti Sinnott and Sammy Moore
Read time: 15min
[SPEAKER]:
This call is being recorded.
Dotti Sinnot:
Oh.
Mack Garrison:
We’re super fancy.
Mack Garrison:
Haha. Well, Dotti, Sammy thank you both for agreeing to be interviewed for the dash bash. Maybe a good first place to start would be about how you two got involved with Golden Wolf, and a little run down on what led up to the New York office.
Dotti Sinnot:
Yeah. Well, I can take this one Sammy, but feel free to jump in.
Sammy and I met at Golden Wolf, I started a month after him. He was a designer in his trial period and I had come on as a freelance producer right after my move to London. I had gone there without a job or anything lined up, just a lot of people to contact. Golden Wolf was one of the first places that I had a meeting at and I wound up never leaving.
Dotti Sinnot:
At the time, the studio was in its early phases. Golden Wolf was first started as the motion arm of the design studio, ILOVEDUST. The core team members have been working together for over a decade, even though Golden Wolf has only been around since 2013. It's an interesting team dynamic in that you have these people who have been with the company for years, even before the company existed. Eventually, the two studios moved in different directions between the animation and design arms. The design studio was based in the south of England, the animation studio was in London. There was this cultural shift between the two cities they were in, and they ultimately decided to start Golden Wolf as its own thing so that we could grow into our personality and develop the studio with the creative vision of Erlingsson.
Dotti Sinnott:
When I started, there were around 15 people. We've slowly been growing since. The studio always had a huge client base in the US, I was regularly working with Nike and Disney on the west coast. We dealt with a lot of challenges with time zones. We knew there would eventually be a need for us to expand to the US, there had been plans thrown around that never stuck until we finally had an American on staff.
Mack Garrison:
There you go.
Dotti Sinnot:
Yeah, had that good passport. I was in London for two years and ultimately decided that I wanted to move back to New York. When I went to the office and told the guys I was moving, Ingy said, “well you don't have to leave the company. Why don't we try and start something in New York?” So, for the first year, Golden Wolf NY was three feet around me at any point in time. That was three years ago. Now we have five people in the New York office and are still expanding. We're still working closely with London. We tend to work as a one studio mentality and put the artists who’re most appropriate for a project on it regardless of location.
Mack Garrison:
That's so cool. That had to be kind of jarring to be like, “all right, I'm quitting my job, and all of a sudden, I'm going to run a studio in New York.”
“Apple Icon” — Created by Golden Wolf.
Dotti Sinnot:
It was not how I expected that conversation to go. I came out of it and I was like, “Did I quit or did I get a promotion? I think both.”
Mack Garrison:
That's great. Sammy, how about you? Were you part of that original crew?
Sammy Moore:
So, I wasn't part of that original inner circle, I'm almost six years in now at Golden Wolf. Before joining, I was in and out of the freelance design and illustration circuit after traveling and graduation. I lived in Australia for a while, and then figured I'd move back to have a go at a proper freelance career. It took me two to three months to realize it wasn't for me. I hated it, I didn't like working by myself. Once I realized that, it was obvious what I needed to do. I don't know how many people actually know this but I didn't know who Golden Wolf was before I applied.
Mack Garrison:
That's great.
“...the one thing that we don't want to change is the quality of work that we're doing...knowing that every piece that we put out the door is the best possible piece that we can do with the time and resources we have.”
Sammy Moore:
Yeah, it's mad. Don't tell Ingi I said that. I told him I was a big fan.
I was browsing Twitter looking for something and stumbled over the design studio that Dotti mentioned. They had retweeted a call for a full-time illustrator and designer at Golden Wolf. I looked them over and instantly fell in love. The work back then was incredible. It's even better now. I headed down for an interview on a Thursday and started on the next Monday. The rest is history, man. I was in the studio for a while as a designer, illustrator. After about a year, I started moving into the art direction, which I've been doing for several years now. Then, as Dotti said, we met on a terrible job. Remember that one, Dotti?
“the good stories come from the shit jobs.”
“Workspace SL20” — Created by Golden Wolf.
Dotti Sinnott:
Yeah.
Sammy Moore:
So bad, but we bonded over that pretty quickly.
Dotti Sinnott:
I think that both of us were pretending we knew what we were doing.
Mack Garrison:
What is it about the trenches that bring people together?
Sammy Moore:
The good stories come from the shit jobs. I knew that Dotti was heading off, then Ingy had a similar conversation with me. He asked if it was a big partaking for her to set things up alone. One thing that we're proud of is the effort and consideration we put into the studio culture. It's all about making sure that there's space for people to feel like they can contribute. For that reason, we wanted to ensure that when we set up in the States, we’d carry over the same ethos we had in the London studio. That’s what makes Golden Wolf so special; the attitude we take towards the work. Our CD was pretty confident that between Dotti and I, we’d be able to do that. We decided that Dotti would handle production and I would handle creative. Now we're here coming up on three years.
Mack Garrison:
That's wild. Having a set culture is important. Having people that you like to hang out with, that you feel close with. If you don't like working with the people you're there with, the work is going to suffer from it. How do y'all go about trying to maintain that same culture that you had in the London office? Do you feel like it is still pretty similar, or are there nuances with each office?
Sammy Moore:
I feel like the last six months have seen a significant shift in the culture. As Dotti said, she was by herself for a while. We brought on two junior designers, one left, and then I came over. It's hard to set up a culture when there are only three of you because we were slammed all the time, running around.
You need to have a few more bodies in the room, just to have a bit more opportunity to bounce off each other and share things. Now we're sitting at five, it feels so different. There are more conversations and ideas. With 4+, you can finally start to enforce culture. Enforce isn't the right word, you can start encouraging the kind of dynamics and attitudes we have in London.
Mack Garrison:
That's a great answer. I remember when we first started dash. It was Cory, myself, and then we had our one illustrator, Meg. Poor Meg. She was the first person to join our team. It was just Cory and I arguing about what we should do and then Meg also trying to figure it out on her own. You don't have any culture when it's new, you know?
Was there ever a directive on what to grow the studio into? Were you all thinking about where you wanted your office to go, to become, the size? Or, was it more natural than that?
Dotti Sinnott:
We've thought a lot about how we want to grow things and what feels right for us. I think the key for us, regardless of what the studio eventually winds up looking for, the one thing that we don't want to change is the quality of work that we're doing. It could look different, it could be in a completely different style, but the thing that we want to hold true is that quality bar; knowing that every piece that we put out the door is the best possible piece that we can do with the time and resources we have.
That's something that can evolve in a lot of different ways. So, I don't think we'll ever get to the point where we're a huge production hub just churning out pieces. We're always going to think carefully about the projects we take on, what they mean for us as a studio, and how they represent our capabilities.
“being in the trenches together is what connects you, and being asked to move out of your comfort zone is when you grow as coworkers and as people who need to rely on each other...those are the chances where it's more powerful for the people working together than just the work itself.”
Dotti Sinnott:
To your earlier question, we understand that, while we're creating a culture that is reflective of what is in London it's never going to be exactly the same. We're different people with different cultural backgrounds. One of the nice things about having come from London is that the studio is multicultural. There are people from all over Europe with many different languages being spoken in that office. In New York, we have the opportunity to have the same; everybody coming on from different places, having different perspectives. That culture of creating quality can hold true despite any of those differences. So, a big piece of it is that we will be different, but we're always going to be Golden Wolf because we're going to do the best that we possibly can.
Sammy Moore:
Yeah, I couldn’t agree more. That's well said.
Mack Garrison:
I'm sure a lot of other smaller shops feel the same way. I look at what you all are doing with Golden Wolf and I get jealous of the fact that you can be picky about the work that you take on.
Mack Garrison:
How did you guys found yourselves positioning Golden Wolf to get to the point where you could be more selective about the work you're taking on? Was that gradual with time, or can you equate it back to a specific project?
“Good Luck on the 25th” — Created by Golden Wolf.
Dotti Sinnott:
Starting, you're always going to take on jobs just to get one step further. We have done our fair share of projects that weren't what we would choose to do today, but they were the option that we had at the time. A lot of it was luck, we were positioned in a certain space in the industry. We had a point of view that people were interested in learning more about and getting more of. So, there was this great happenstance when we were ready to move forward at a time that the industry was also looking for someone like us. It’s hard to quantify why that happened. It just did, and we feel lucky that we're there now to enjoy that space. For a while, we were able to take on projects that were cool but weren't the biggest budget. Or, they were for a client that we were interested in working with but maybe not exactly the creative that we wanted to do. We’d take them on anyway, just to work with those clients.
Dotti Sinnott:
We’d do a lot of small projects, all at once. I would be producing 10 to 15 jobs at a time while we had another producer and our CD also running projects. Maybe it was the way production ran, the visual style we developed, or the client relationships. We acknowledged these for every job and tried to direct them to new requests coming through; what did we learn from the previous projects? Is this an opportunity to try and do things better than we did last time? We kept building on it.
“animation is not something done in a vacuum. it’s not done by one person. it takes a huge team.”
So they were stepping stones. After doing different types of work, we started seeing what fit and what didn't; what was worth the extra investment. Animation is not something done in a vacuum. It's not done by one person. It takes a huge team, and a big reason why Golden Wolf is so successful is that everyone on that team is willing to put in more than the 9 to 5. We all work extra hours, all of us put in more time and heart than you would at a job with a better work/life balance. But we do it because we care about making something really great, and that’s the piece of culture we think about when hiring; is this person someone who is going to get the work done and leave at the end of the day? Or, are they someone who is going to get the work done and then think about how they can do it better tomorrow? That's the person we want to hire, the team we want to build, and the projects we try to take on.
Mack Garrison:
I'm pumped. I feel like I just got a virtual pep talk. I'm going to hang up the phone to make some animation. Like, “oh, I'm doing it for Dotti. I'm going to kill it for Dotti.”
Sammy Moore:
Yeah, right on.
Dotti Sinnott:
That's what makes my job easy, the people that I work with. Sammy and I were both talking about how, over the weekend, we were thinking about a current project with a few bumps in the road. I fell asleep last night and it popped into my head as I was putting my head onto the pillow. That happens to us all the time. We live and breathe this work.
Mack Garrison:
I like the idea of bringing in people. It's hard these days, everyone gets caught up on social media. They see the best of everyone's lives being put forward. It's easy to get caught up with instant fame or putting your work out. I think there's going to be a lot of students at the dash bash who are looking for a career in motion, so let’s talk a little bit more about what you were just saying.
What do you look for when looking at someone coming out of school? What are you looking for in a portfolio? What advice would you give graduating students to get on Golden Wolf's radar?
Sammy Moore:
We've had a lot of conversations, since Commotion because we saw such great work. Variety is always good, but I think one of the things we’re keen to see is when people want to push the boundaries and try new things. It's a passion thing, for sure. It sounds a bit cliché, but the only way we're able to achieve the level of finish and consistently, to draw clients back, is because the work we do is such high quality and pushes the boundaries in exploration.
In terms of a more specific kind of skill you can see from looking at a portfolio...variety. We have some people come to us with portfolios where it's all very similar. To be honest, when I had my interview with our CD, he genuinely had a concern. My work was good but all very similar. Something we pride ourselves on at Golden Wolf that is super valuable is the ability to work in different styles and adapt to different briefs. You see some students who can get a little bit caught up in trying to establish a style or figure out what their aesthetic is. Honestly, if I look at a portfolio and it's got variety, I'm into it straight away. You see that a person can work in several different ways and they instantly become more valuable.
“sometimes you just need a little bit more time to figure out whether you're the type of person who wants to be a specialist doing the same thing or you want to be a generalist with a little taste of everything. and both opportunities are good.”
Mack Garrison:
That's a really good point. For a while, people have said you need to be a specialist. I know when we're looking for folks to come onboard at dash, particularly because we're a small office, there's a necessity for everyone to do a bit of everything. You might have an animator who is doing some pre-production one day and style frames another day. They may even come up with ideas for a script. It's all over the place. So, when interviewing folks, we look for more of a generalist. If you can be talented in a multitude of different things, it shows me you're willing to explore new stuff. If I want someone to hire us for a particular thing, maybe that's better for freelance potentially, but I don't know if it's best when trying to be full-time within a studio. Would you all agree with that?
Sammy Moore:
Yes.
Dotti Sinnott:
Yeah, especially for a small studio, it's helpful to have people who can do a little bit of everything. Even if they're not great at it all, the fact that they're willing to try says a lot for a team. Being in the trenches together is what connects you, and being asked to move out of your comfort zone is when you grow as coworkers and as people who need to rely on each other. So those times where you need to jump in and do something different are when you’re proving that you're there to help. Even if you can't do it perfectly, it's better than not having anybody to do it.
Those are the chances where it's more powerful for the people working together than just the work itself. Another thing that gets glossed over when you go to school events, sometimes you're not going to get the right job immediately after graduating. It may take a while to figure out what your path is, and that's okay. There are a lot of different ways to get from point A to B, it's not always a straight path. I went to school for English and French. I wound up working at an Apple store and then in HR. Now I'm the executive producer of an animation studio. How did that happen?
Dotti Sinnott:
All of those things building on each other gave me this experience and helped me grow. Even if I wasn't able to do exactly what I wanted right out of school, I used the opportunities to learn as much as I could where I was while trying to work towards the next thing. Sometimes you just need a little bit more time to figure out whether you're the type of person who wants to be a specialist doing the same thing or you want to be a generalist with a little taste of everything. And both opportunities are good.
Mack Garrison:
I love that.
Sammy Moore:
At Commotion, I could see the pressure that a lot of these kids were putting on themselves to launch out of school and get straight into a role to start building experience. When I first graduated, I worked at the Nike store selling basketball shoes for a year before I moved to Golden Wolf. While working at Nike - I'm a real fanboy - I started doing personal projects because I wanted to work with them as a freelancer. Those projects ended up being the stuff that stuck out to Golden Wolf because they were doing so much work with Nike at the time. Now I'm here.
There's no way I could have foreseen that happening. But all that time I spent selling sneakers was worth it, it gave my voice and my story a different trajectory when compared to anybody else's. Stumbling through and getting some experience is a lot more realistic and to be encouraged, rather than putting pressure on yourself to get that job at work or whatever. You've got to get out there and figure out what you want to do. There's no time cap on that. You've got to do it at your own pace.
“What’s Your Style?” — Created by Golden Wolf.
Mack Garrison:
There's so much pressure when you're coming out of school to get in the game quickly. But, taking time off, traveling a little bit, clearing your head, figuring out what you're into; I think that all pays huge dividends. Or in your case, living out in the middle of nowhere in Australia.
Dotti Sinnott:
Just don't ask him about the kangaroos.
Mack Garrison:
Well, I don't want to keep you all too long. I know we covered a lot and I asked all the questions. Aside from coming to hang out with your favorite friends in North Carolina, is there a teaser for what you guys might speak about or anything you're looking forward to touching on?
Dotti Sinnott:
Right now, we’re just making a list of things that we could start talking about, we figured over the summer we'd start to dig into it a little bit more. All that to say, we don't know where we're going to be in a few months.
“Brown Skin” — Created by Golden Wolf.
Mack Garrison:
The best thing about this festival is that it might be the first time anyone is allowed to go hang out with other people, which to me is just amazing that they would choose our conference to come to do that at.
Dotti Sinnott:
I'm excited to see how weird everyone is with other people when we finally get out of this.
Mack Garrison:
Just a bunch of socially-awkward folks. I mean animators and designers are kind of introverts already haha. I'm looking forward to hanging out with you all, assuming everything goes to plan.
Sammy Moore:
Sounds great, man.
Dotti Sinnott:
Yeah, it sounds awesome. Let us know if you need anything else from us.
Mack Garrison:
Absolutely. You know what I need Sammy? Dotti is going to kill me because I know she hasn't gotten any yet, but I still want some of that hot sauce you were promising me about from down in Savannah.
Sammy Moore:
There is a bottle in the fridge with your name on it, man. I promise.
Mack Garrison:
I love it. I'm stoked.
Sammy Moore:
You know what? I'm going to bring you two bottles.
Mack Garrison:
Two bottles? You animal. Cool, well thank you all for hanging. It's good to catch up again.
Sammy Moore:
Yeah, likewise.
Dottie Sinnott:
For sure!
Mack Garrison:
We'll talk soon.
Art by Nick Stoney at Golden Wolf