Discussing the Evolution of the Animation Industry with TJ Kearney
We sat down with TJ Kearney, Global Director of Content at Work & Co. and former founding partner of oddfellows, to speak on the debate of being a generalist vs specialist, the growing importance of social media, and more!
Q&A with TJ Kearney
Read time: 20min
Mack Garrison:
I advise others, but I also need to listen to it myself. I was talking to someone the other day, a student, about how whatever you put up on your website is what people will ultimately hire you for. Advertise what it is you want to do. dash has done a really good job of defining a style that we're good at; colorful vector, snappy, bubbly-type animation. The problem is, we've started to notice that that's the only recurring work we're getting from people, but we can do a lot more.
So, one of our goals this year is to push into creating stuff that feels different than what's already on our portfolio. To try to say, "Hey look, yeah, we can knock this explainer video out of the park for you, but here are some other things that we can do as well."
TJ Kearney:
You and I were talking about this the other day. It doesn't matter how talented your studio is, even if you have crazy stuff on your reel that brought the client to you in the first place. They can still reach a point where they say, "Well, have you done this exact thing? Have you done animated food?" And you're like, "Of course I can do that, but I don't have it in my reel." That can be a deal-breaker. Sometimes people want to see that one exact thing.
As you said, you have this one style, so clients are only seeing that one style. We ran into that when I had a studio. We started only doing 3D, eventually, we started hiring cel animators. Suddenly, we couldn't win any 3D work because we had nothing to show. It’s something important to think about as you're curating; what you're putting out into the world. Make sure it's leading to the next thing, rather than just showing what you've already done in the past.
Mack Garrison:
How'd y'all get out of that? Was it just that emphasis and focus on creating new work that showed you could do a more diverse style?
TJ Kearney:
It was a mixture. In the beginning, we’d sneak it in wherever we could, even if it wasn't a part of what the client asked for. Then, a lot of it came down to personal projects and putting up work that aligned with what we wanted to do. I also think it was a result of how we built our staff.
We were 3D heavy in the beginning, but as we grew our staff, we started adding people that augmented that team and added to it. As a result, our aesthetic changed, and the work we started putting out reflected that. But then we almost went too far in the other direction where it's like, "Okay, well now we haven't touched 3D in six months plus, so now it's harder for us to sell in 3D." That's fine if you don't want to be doing that, but if you want to have a diverse range, then you have to be continually updating the work while making sure that you have a consistent flow of multiple types of work so that people can see what you’re capable of.
“it’s something important to think about as you're curating: what you're putting out into the world. make sure it's leading to the next thing, rather than just showing what you've already done in the past.”
Mack Garrison:
I've been surprised how much social media has started to influence our projects and the work we're landing. You mentioned posting little personal pieces or side projects to show what you're capable of doing. I feel we've been focused on just putting a lot of stuff out on social media for exposure within our communities so that people know who we are. It's impacted a lot of the clientele that follow us.
I can't tell you how many times I've gotten calls that have been like, "Oh, I saw this post that you guys put out the other day. It looks like it's the perfect fit for this project that we're working on. You want to talk about it?" I never thought that social media would have pivoted to a point where it has such a direct impact on our work.
TJ Kearney:
I try to keep in mind that the people who’re hiring you more often than not are the art and design directors. They're always pulling you for reference, and not necessarily just you, but also pulling from socials. Years ago, your only options were to go to a rep and see what the rep presented to you. Go to Motionographer. Go to Stash. Go to these places that were highlighting a select few. Now, the middleman has been cut out of that whole scenario. Art directors are looking at Instagram just as much as anybody else, and they're the target.
The trap there and the thing I get worried about is the pressure to constantly update your socials. What ends up happening is you put out a bunch of work more frequently, and it's not as high a caliber as it used to be. However, I lean more towards consistently updating while not feeling the pressure that you have to put something on every day or even every week. Once or twice a quarter is fine. Make sure you have a presence out there, but also make sure what you're putting out is differentiating you because of its higher quality.
Mack Garrison:
I feel the same trap of assimilating into a particular style. Things get saturated, as far as where people are trying to find inspiration. Work starts to look similar. You have a couple of big players that come out with something that looks relatively unique, then, all of a sudden, you get a million copycats that push in that direction. As an industry, that's one area that we can improve; pushing new avenues. Though, I do feel motion design is one of the few areas bridging this gap between all of the different fields. You have new technology coming out; people coming into it who have a background in code, graphic design, illustrators, designers. It's a hodgepodge of people that get into this field.
TJ Kearney:
That ties back to the social media posting everyone’s pulling from. You've got two or three different routes; you’ve got direct-to-client work, working with an agency involved as a middleman between you, or, you're working with a studio that you're running everything for them. You run into issues less with that third one. The other two have art directors that have been selling through to the client. Even if they're internal, they’ve been selling an aesthetic before you even get to the table. They've had weeks or months worth of conversations to get the budget unlocked. Usually, they’ve been pulling the same work that everybody else is. By that time, their higher-ups are already expecting something to look a certain way and it becomes that much harder for you to push.
Unfortunately, some of that gets taken out of your hands at the studio. A lot falls on your client relations; getting yourself up the food chain so that you're having that conversation early on before things are locked in. I think that this is where it gets interesting. Right? You've got studios - Golden Wolf is a great example - where they have an aesthetic and a theme. You know what you're buying into. Then, you have some more diverse studios. That's where you’ll get a broader spectrum to get hired. At the same time, they may come to you with a very clear direction before you even get your chance to put your stamp on it.
“25th Anniversary” — Cartoon Network
Mack Garrison:
100%. Even just saying, "Golden Wolf," everyone reading will picture exactly what that style of work is. I'm sure it's the same deal for the clients who want to hire them. It's like, "Well, we know we can get diversity in what we want our final project to be, but, in general, we want it to be in this style. So let's go to the best of the best who does that."
On the flip side, if you're more of a generalist, you might not be the go-to studio to do that. Ultimately, it depends on how you want to position yourself in the market. I'm curious about your take on this as well. Now’s the time if you’re a specialist. Be good at something, get hired for being the best at that. But, if you're looking for more long-term security in the industry, I think being a generalist makes more sense. It gives you ultimate flexibility while allowing you to pivot with new trends and technology. Do you have a thought on which is better?
TJ Kearney:
I think better is an interesting term. It comes down to your individual goals, whether at a studio or as a freelancer. Either is a gamble. If you're a generalist, you're probably not going to make as much due to your wide spectrum. The good thing is that you're going to get volume, so you'll have more opportunities come to you. But I wouldn't be surprised if the budgets go up. Right?
Instead, when you start to see the budgets go up, that’s when you have a hyper-focused type of team or individual. You especially see this in illustration where you’ll have an illustrator who's popular and has a distinct style. They could be three times the price of any other illustrator, but the client wants that one style. So, they're going to invest in the more expensive person. The problem is, you're waiting for clients who want that one thing or that one look. The phone will ring a little less frequently when you're that specialized, but you can charge a premium for it. That's all well and good when times are really good…
Mack Garrison:
...when that style's really in.
TJ Kearney:
That's the thing, it has a time limit. That style's not going to be in for the entirety of anyone's career. For that reason, I think being a generalist is safer. For freelancers, it comes down to where you want to work. If you just want to make sure you're making a paycheck, or you want to work at agencies, being a generalist makes a lot of sense. They’re going to have you work on tons of different types of work. If you want to work at a studio, most studios are looking for hyper-focused individuals. They have a need. They're trying to augment or add to their team. So many animators that are coming out of school right now, if you want to get into a studio, you have to differentiate yourself. It comes down to the individual's goals; depending on what you want, where you want to end up, and consistency versus quality. Those are the decision-makers for where you put your energy.
“it comes down to the individual's goals; depending on what you want, where you want to end up, and consistency versus quality. those are the decision-makers for where you put your energy.”
Mack Garrison:
That's a really interesting take on it. Using them as a continued example, I think about Golden Wolf. The type of person that would go there is very specific. On the other hand, I think about all of the random projects that come in the door. For some, it's more beneficial to have people with a multitude of skill sets. We may have someone working in pre-production who’ll then be animating the next day. Or, maybe they're conceptualizing some stuff. Having people that are versatile and can hop around is helpful, but maybe you don’t necessarily need to be versatile in a bunch of different styles, but versatile on how you take that style and apply it to different areas of the process. Whereas, in an agency, you may be more involved in all different areas, a studio you might be more specific.
Let me ask you this, TJ, let's say you're starting a studio. You open it up. ‘TJ Kearney R Us,’ or whatever it's called. How do you think you would approach it? Would you do anything differently? Would you be hyper-focused? More of a generalist?
TJ Kearney:
A few things, I would not hire based on skill set, but based on personalities. I’d build a team that works well together with skills that benefit one another. Then, I would learn to sell around that. What I've learned throughout my career is people buy into hyper-focused and well-running machines. Anyone, any client can go hire an animator. They do all the time. So, why do they need you?
You've built a unit, a team, that works so well together that they pump out work at a higher caliber than any freelancers or group they could bring in. That's the difference. When I first started, there were really big egos and a lot of assholes in the industry, to be honest. People could get away with that because they were buying into the fact that there were only a handful of people that could do the work. So, there were a few people that made a ton of money. They could treat their assistants like crap and get away with it because they were the only ones that could do it.
“Great Sleep” — Casper
TJ Kearney:
Let's be honest, we have an oversaturated market of talent. There are so many kids graduating, young talent coming out that's affordable. But, that only gets you so far. It's the teams that work well together and are going to make something better than any thrown together team can.
What I've learned the most out of all the companies I've worked with, is the importance of finding what you're good at, focusing on it, and becoming a leader in it. That means, for the most part, that you don't pivot, but when you do, you go all in. Those are the biggest things; team personality and makeup, finding what you're good at, making sure you stand out, and even if you take on and you are diverse within the walls of your studio don't sell yourself as a bunch of different things.
Mack Garrison:
I love where this conversation is going. Sometimes with direct to client projects, a lot of the clients are used to working with agencies. They're used to working with groups that have more capabilities than what a studio might offer. But the industry is shifting and some of these bigger companies are gaining in-house teams. Despite that, clients don't necessarily have the need for a big turnkey agency. They want to go to a studio for their animation needs, however, they're still wanting more of what they've gotten from an agency. Of course, it's just like a cheaper price because you're coming to a studio.
It's really important not to water down your focus and to be good at one thing, you know? As soon as you start to become too broad - you start doing media buys or try to become the motion studio that transitions into an agency - you’ll start falling short on promises and what you do well. Off that same line, aside from bringing in creative roles, what are some other roles you think are crucial that motion studios out there might overlook?
TJ Kearney:
I'm going to be biased to producers. I'm a producer.
Mack Garrison:
Right.
TJ Kearney:
There are a lot of studios that started with just creative, that's the biggest mistake. You need a strong producer that can handle tough conversations with clients, lawyers, and accountants. Especially when you're a small company. The reality is, you're not going to have an HR department. So they've got to fill in as HR and office management as well. They wear all these different hats. That's step one.
Step two...having a partner. You don't necessarily need to hire in-house accountants or anything like that, but having a financial partner that can guide you is something that's often overlooked. Also, lawyers are really important partners to have on hand. Then when it comes to augmenting your staff, I would focus on writers and developers. Having developer partners is going to open up the doors for a lot of where the industry's headed next. When I was starting, everything was television. TV and cinema then started evolving into digital and the web. We’ve had this golden period of making a bunch of online how-to and intro videos, but we're seeing those budgets get cut in half. Right? Now, we're trying to figure out how to get scrappy. But rather than fighting each other over the scraps at the end, why don't we focus on what's next?
Mack Garrison:
That’s a good point.
“what I've learned the most out of all the companies I've worked with is the importance of finding what you're good at. focusing on it, and becoming a leader in it.”
TJ Kearney:
That and media buying have been my focus. Most studios don't, but I think it is really important. Here at Work & Co, I have a content team, development team, and our design team. Also, a company that we purchased, called AKDM that does all the media planning and buying.
Mack Garrison:
You know, I think there's tension in the industry. Bigger agencies are getting smaller. You have freelancers who are becoming more capable. Kids are coming out of school who are doing phenomenal stuff. So, the industry is kind of pitching. What used to be brought into work for the studio is now getting taken away by freelancers and some of the top-tier studios are now taking work away from some of those agencies. There's going to be a lot more partnerships starting to happen. Because branding is going to be a really important element of this, but so is systemizing the motion.
We had a piece we worked on with a brand agency called New Kine, they needed us to come in and help with the video. So, it became like a partnership, we were brought into the conversations. It was all transparent, and in the end, we went our separate ways. They were able to deliver on a client's needs without having to take on the overhead or manage something that was out of their wheelhouse. I think there's going to be a lot more of that, particularly as shops become smaller while trying to be a little more nimble.
TJ Kearney:
I think you hit something important there. A partnership has to be a partnership, not a vendor relationship. When that branding studio brought you to the table, it was about both going to conversations together. When you're building these relationships, I wouldn't wait until the need arises. Then, you're scrambling. Instead, I would get ahead of it and build those relations now so that when the opportunity comes up, you're already fluid. You're used to working together and you know how it's going to work.
Mack Garrison:
That's a great analogy. That preparedness, thinking ahead is the biggest thing. It's easy to get caught up, especially when you're busy with projects that you're hyper-focused on. One of the things that I've learned from running the studio is that you have to be looking ahead; what projects are coming in, your revenue stream, is there going to be slower months? All are imperative and are examples of why having good management is so important.
What might be a good thing to speak on is the producer role. For myself, my role is pretty blended. I'm a producer, a creative director, an accountant, and I'm also writing company. It's all over the place, but a true producer role. What are the expectations of a producer?
TJ Kearney:
The true role of a producer varies by their level and specific title, right? You have junior producers, studio producers, broadcast producers, and digital producers. You also have senior and finally executive producers. Everybody has their different title. At a junior producer level, you're learning on the job. My expectations are you’re taking notes in the meetings, you’re checking in and making sure the shots are getting done on time while also reporting back. This will vary depending on the size of the company.
Standard producers can handle one to two projects by themselves. They escalate things to the executive producer and are the bad guys when needed. They're always going to have their scopes vetted by a senior or an executive producer before they go out. But I’d expect to be able to hand them a project and run the day to day and make sure it gets done.
TJ Kearney:
Senior producers are going to do all that, plus be able to handle multiple projects at a time at a full load. All the while, mentoring the younger producers. Finally, you've got your executive producers. In my mind, they’re the parents of the studio or team. Their job is to build that team to deal with inner conflict, make sure to find opportunities to grow staff members, and ultimately looking ahead to ensure there's work every day for that team; planning for the next quarter, making sure the work that's going out is leading to the company goal and creating opportunities that lead to the type of work that the studio wants to stand for. They're the ones that are going to be having the tough financial conversation. They're the ones that are going to have to deal with someone getting let go. All of those heavier situations.
“29 Rooms” — Refinery29
Mack Garrison:
There's not always a right answer for something. Sometimes a new request comes in that you’ve never dealt with one before. When you get situations like that, what's your solution strategy? For unprecedented situations, how would you advise some younger producers?
TJ Kearney:
When I started, I was frustrated. I was always told this industry is about who you know, and I didn't know anybody. I worried about breaking and making those connections. The hardest part when you're a young producer is realizing that producing comes with time. There's nothing you can do about it. You have to work your way through a bunch of different projects to start understanding what's needed, what unforeseen things to anticipate. That knowledge only comes with repetition and experience.
Another thing, every team you work with is different. A lot of times you'll see a producer who's like, “well, I had this team that was able to do this in two weeks.” Your new staff may take four weeks to do the same task. So, it's about knowing who your team is, what they can do, and how well they can do it.
Mack Garrison:
When you're a producer, you're talking about experience and how you need to build experience to make decisions. For someone who's up and coming, particularly maybe if you're the sole producer at a studio full of creatives, you may not have a mentor. How do you make tough decisions when you feel like there's nothing that you can back it up against? Is there a methodology you do in this situation?
TJ Kearney:
Getting back to what I was saying before about not knowing anyone, build a network that you can bounce ideas off of. They don't have to work at your studio. We all are guessing. It's the Wild West. Everyone's just making it up. The rate of what something costs is whatever you can get away with at the end of the day. So, it's tough to say, “here's the set of rules to use for producing,” because they don't exist. My whole career, I haven't had to deal with print. So, when I have a print ask, I have producers I can reach out to with that background. They help guide me. The misnomer that a producer should know everything isn’t possible.
Mack Garrison:
It's great to hear you say that. I think about when I was first getting into animation and motion design, I was a junior animator. As you get older, you gain more experience and realize that, to your point, no one in the game knows what they're doing. Everyone's just figuring it out. Once you conclude, it gives you the confidence to handle difficult situations consistently. The biggest thing that I've learned is whatever decision you make, make it, learn from it and be consistent with how you approach that in the future.
TJ Kearney:
Exactly. The difference between a junior producer and somebody seasoned, is a junior producer tends to fake it till they make it, pretend like they have all the answers when they don't know what they're talking about and do it as tight of a budget as they think they can get away with; all the things that bite you in the ass. Every one of them.
When you're a seasoned producer, you've got nothing to lose. Your job is pretty secure because you're a very senior person in this industry. So when you're at that level, you're able to say like, I don't fucking know and that's okay. I’ve made a fool of myself several times by just pretending I knew what I was talking about. When you're more senior, you don't sweat it. You say I need more time. You say I need to ask some questions first. I'll get back to you. You pad your budgets because you know that whatever you think it's going to take, it's going to take more than that.
“a partnership has to be a partnership. not a vendor relationship.”
Mack Garrison:
That's so accurate. It’s all about learning from experiences, which might be a good segue to a question for you. Are there any key moments of mistakes that have stuck with you?
TJ Kearney:
There are a few. At my very first job as a producer, I was working in visual effects and finishing house. We were finishing spots, big national broadcast spots, and stuff. We had to get ISCI codes so that we could play everything. ISCI codes are becoming rare, but at the time I had no idea what the fuck ISCI code was. I was too embarrassed to ask anyone though. Then, I did a Google search for ISCI and saw some definition of it as a password. I just went in, really confidently, to the client. I was like, "Yeah, let's set that password." They were like, "What are you talking about? That's not what an ISCI..." The client had to teach me what was in the room. You’re better off asking upfront, than being embarrassed after the fact.
Also, early on, my scopes were light, especially in assumptions. Remember, just because a client may have had animated thoughts before, doesn't mean they know what it takes to do what we do. I’d say, "We'll deliver you a spot, it'll be 60 seconds." That's about it. What I didn't build in back then was, "This is the style that we're locking in on." Or, "This is the round of reviews." A costly one for me was a really big tech job early on. We were supposed to run, around eight to ten weeks. In the end, it ran for eight months.
Mack Garrison:
Oh, wow.
TJ Kearney:
The client was frustrated, they felt the scope was deliverable space and we hadn't delivered against what they were requesting. I felt it was time and material space, but the scope was too loose to prove either of us right. Just made this uncomfortable situation. Do all the tough conversations before you get started. Make sure your contract is buttoned up. Make sure you've thought of every possible left turn that's going to come along the way, that it's written into your scope so that when it comes, no one's caught off guard, which happens a lot.
Mack Garrison:
That has to be a universal mistake. I'm cringing a bit because I look at what our SOWs were when we first started. What we send now is drastically different. I was guilty of the one line, "Here's the price, here are some references." I'll break things out line by line, to even storyboard style frames, keyframes, animatics to show the process, and what we're building into that. Laying out review times, because even with the best intentions, something always comes up. You just want to make sure that when there is an issue, you have a roadmap on how to handle it.
TJ Kearney:
It's brutal. Important things that get left out there are about breaking things down for granular. For me, I set out the ideal review cadence that I'm anticipating for the whole project within the contract itself, including how many hours the client has to respond with feedback before the change order kicks in. What I get asked a lot by younger producers is, "We're still only doing the number of reviews that we agreed to in our contract, but the client's taking a week to get back to us every round, and we're losing all this time." If you haven't built that into your contract, you screwed yourself.
Mack Garrison:
Right. Particularly on those event-driven deadlines, it's contingent on them responding. That's lost production.
When we first started the company, I remember reading books. Gino Whitman had this book, “Traction.” It spoke about systems and organization, as a creative, I didn’t think it was for us. I turned an eye towards having stock prices or systems for how we quote things out. But, the more I've grown in my position, the more that I've learned to like systems. They create an efficient machine. What are your thoughts on systemizing? Is it good or does it take away from the quality?
TJ Kearney:
I see two sides of that coin. I can tell you what I do now. I have boilerplate signs that are four different tiers of projects. If we need to turn out something quickly, we already have a keynote built that says, "Here are some examples of that style. Here are the deliverables that typically come with that style." Then, I give ranges. I won't get granular at that point, it's more like, "Okay well, that type of project typically costs $xx." Whatever it ended up being, you should anticipate the project will be between $xx and $xx. That's a variance in price there, comes down to music, video licensing types of things, or how intricate we get with the animation. We have a range there, to where we can scale back if this budget's the issue, or we can scale up if quality is the goal. From there, I try to use those to present what their feedback is and what they're reacting to. But, you don't want to pigeonhole yourself; presenting references the same, limiting your team. You could just fall into a pattern of repetition which is problematic in itself. By keeping everything a little more bespoke, you leave the door open to other styles and opportunities.
The other benefit to systematizing is consistency. The last agency I was at, every bid that went out was wildly different. The rates were different. Even if the ask was the same, depending on which team you were working with, or which producer happened to do that scope, you would get back different rates. That isn't so much a concern when you're a small studio, but as you get bigger, that's problematic. You don't want one client coming to you multiple times with the same ask and getting three completely different rates, it makes you look unprofessional.
“Video Awareness” — Twitter
TJ Kearney:
By systematizing things, as you grow and you add producers to your team, you're ensuring everything that comes out of your studio is consistent.
Mack Garrison:
That’s accurate. I think back to what we were charging when we first started, we're four times those rates now. Partly because, initially, you're like, "I don't want to go under." But being confident to say "No" to projects that you know aren't the right fit, that was hard. Knowing you had the time to take on the project, but it just wasn't quite enough money. One thing we found helpful was to have a baseline retainer. That was a pivoting point, maybe a year or two, where I started to think we could start to push to do what we wanted to do. Do you feel the same way? Does every studio or agency need some sort of retainer model? It seems like a good safety net to have.
TJ Kearney:
Yeah. Like anything else, there are pros and cons. The trap with the downside to a retainer system is the perception, "The client owns you," at that point, right? I’ve seen where the expectation on the client's side is like, "Well, you're part of our staff now. If our staff works overtime, you better be ready to turn on, work nights and weekends for us." I would be very hesitant to fall into that trap, but that said, your company is going to be far more stable with retainers than it is without them because you can start to plan out the year.
I see this all the time, where a studio ramps up when they're busy, then all of a sudden they've got a bunch of people sitting around with nothing to put them on. I think that retainers are scary to a lot of people because they have no idea how they're structured or how to negotiate them. It starts to be a more viable option, as you become established and build a rapport with a specific client.
“The Junebugs” — Produced by TJ Kearney
Mack Garrison:
Well, that's a really good point.
I'm looking forward to having you down here in October. You’ll love my hometown, we’ll be getting y'all some barbecue.
TJ Kearney:
I'm excited, man. Thanks a lot.
Mack Garrison:
Great catching up, and enjoy the weekend, dude. I'll talk to you soon.