Meet the speakers: Amanda Godreau

An interview with Amanda Godreau, a Puerto Rican multidisciplinary artist. Through bold work, Amanda lends her creative vision across multiple mediums, showcasing her appreciation for the beauty of design throughout unique spaces.

Q&A hosted by Meryn Hayes and Ashley Targonski.

Read time: 15min

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Meryn Hayes:

Amanda, welcome. For those who don't know you, I'd love it if you could give a quick intro and how you got into motion design.

Amanda Godreau:

I got into motion design completely by accident, which is something that I always love to tell people. I think once you're in it, you really start to see that it's everywhere. I went to college originally for coding and then transferred to college in Florida for graphic design, and they just so happened to have one of the best motion design programs there. And a really talented professor found me, and said, "You need to change careers."

I was like, "All right." And it was just, it's been a whirlwind since. I feel like every single year I've learned something really different.

Meryn Hayes:

I think many people can relate to finding their way into this industry. I think this industry gets people from all kinds of career backgrounds, which I think is one of the really unique things about it. 

Amanda Godreau:

I completely agree. I think throwing out the plan has been such a good thing for me. I think even as of six months ago, what I had planned just completely flipped. And I think learning to embrace it has only been to my benefit. It's been to the benefit of people around me, and I think it should be discussed more. I don't think you can plan for most things in life.

Meryn Hayes:

Absolutely. Well, that leads really nicely into my next question; so you graduated about a year ago, right? Did you have a lot of expectations of what was going to happen after graduation? I mean, what was the plan?

Amanda Godreau:

I feel like I wasn't entirely sure what I wanted to do when I graduated. To be completely honest, I didn't even know if I wanted to continue in the same field. I was heavily considering shifting to another industry altogether. And I knew the one thing in my plan was to rest. I came out of art school extremely burnt out. And that's something that needs to be talked about more. There’s something that TJ touched on last time at Dash Bash, I remember being a student watching his panel, and that it was a very big moment for me. I remember thinking "Someone who has been in this industry for so long is acknowledging it, I need to pivot and think about how to build rest to what I'm doing."

That was the plan post-grad, was to rest, and recharge because I knew that the aftermath of being so heavily focused on my career. To be able even to say you have a career in college is crazy, right? I realized I needed to allow myself time to be a 20-year-old in my early twenties, and as a result that’s been really beneficial to my career as well, I think.

Meryn Hayes:

That's so important because as we all know, finding inspiration in your art, in your work has to happen outside of your computer, outside of your desk. Being inspired by things, having a life, and especially at a young age. Feeling like you have the freedom and ability to find who you are because at that age you're still figuring out, "Who am I?" I mean, I'm still figuring out who I am. You need space in your life and to not have everything planned out in such a way that it constricts you from figuring out who that is before you really even started.

Amanda Godreau:

Yeah. And that's all to the benefit of the art. I feel like the moments where I had the hardest time making art, creating art, and making art that I was proud of were the moments where I was pushing myself so much that I had nowhere to draw from. If you're not connected to yourself first, you can't make something that's supposed to connect with others. So, I laid aside any professional aspirations I had. Including what studios I wanted to work with and what I wanted to do. I laid it to bed five to six months after graduating because I realized that even if I could do it, I was really going to enjoy doing it. And ultimately, I feel like enjoying the art you're making and your work is the top priority.

Meryn Hayes:

Yeah, absolutely. And in terms of finding your style and what brings you joy and the work that you do after graduation, what was your approach to finding that?

Amanda Godreau:

Finding the work that I enjoy making, I think, for me, has had to do with connecting with so many different people and so many different types of artists. My number one goal this year was to chat with people, learn, and view outside of my lived experience. And that inspired me to make many choices in how I approach my art. I was really fortunate last year. I got to go to Portugal for NFC Portugal. It was just this gigantic NFT conference, no motion designers, I think I was the only of the few ones there.

Even though personally I'm not active in the NFT community, I got to chat with people who are so invested in it, and at the end of the day, everyone's making art, right? Connecting with just people as artists outside of a commercial or traditional background has been so valuable.

Something I started to do as well was to connect with smaller BIPOC and female-owned brands, and I've been working one-on-one with a couple, developing renders pro bono, and just making art with women that I connect with. And that's been a really good way for me to give back, push my creative vision forward, and also feel like I'm doing meaningful work that serves an ethical but also spiritual purpose for me. And that's been really good.

Meryn Hayes:

That's amazing.  How were you making those connections with artists after graduation?

Distancia

Amanda Godreau:

I was chronically online in undergrad; a lot of these connections were friends or people that I had connected with during this time when everyone was online because of the pandemic. I've gotten to travel so much and be like, "Oh my God, we've known each other for four years; we've never met, let's hang out," And that's led to even more connections and more people. And I feel like it's snowballed into this gigantic network of people that I feel like I've known for years, and also simultaneously feel like I don't know it all.

Meryn Hayes:

I think that's one of the things that I am just so appreciative about this industry and this community is that willingness to just chat. I mean, my background is in photography. I ended up here because I found myself at a marketing agency here in Raleigh, which is where I met Mack and Cory who founded Dash. But before I joined, I had been involved in animation and live-action projects, but this whole motion community was completely over my head. And so, as soon as I joined, I just realized how kind everyone was and willing to share their experiences, which I just feel is pretty rare in most industries, but especially in art. I just can't imagine photographers, I don't know, sharing their problems or I just think it's a really special place to be able to find that.

Amanda Godreau:

I agree. I think this community is extremely generous. I think this community overall is extremely humble and I think it's really open. I think there's a lot of room for people to grow in all sorts of directions and I feel like you can almost always find someone to relate to in at least some sense. And everyone's cheerleaders for each other. I don't think, at least the people I intentionally try to connect with and stay in touch with, I feel like everyone's so proud of each other at the end of the day, not just for professional reasons, but for artistic reasons, right?

Something I've tried to make a very different distinction this year is the difference between being a designer and being an artist. I think before this year, I would be a designer and people would ask me, "What's your style?" And I'd respond by saying, "I don't have a style. I follow a brief. I'm a designer, I'm a problem solver." This year I'm getting to explore an artistic side of myself and acknowledging that side, I wasn't open to it at the time, and just starting to understand the difference has been a really big conversation among a lot of people in the community. I think it’s been a really great one.

Meryn Hayes:

Absolutely. I mean, again, going back to your whole life, you're given briefs in college and growing up, about who you're supposed to be or what you're supposed to be doing. And so, for the first time, you're actually trying to figure out, "Who am I?" Both personally and artistically. So, really giving yourself that space on both sides of that coin is just so important.

Amanda Godreau:

Yeah, I agree.

Meryn Hayes:

So, timeline here, so you were in the middle of college when the pandemic started?

Amanda Godreau:

Yeah, I was in my sophomore year. I had done one year in person, at that point II had done one semester of After Effects and one semester of Cinema 4D when then the whole world shut down. That was completely unexpected.

Meryn Hayes:

Yeah. And so, how do you feel, I mean, it's all you've known, so hard to compare, but how do you feel that changed your trajectory of what you were learning or how you were learning or learning from other students?

Amanda Godreau:

I think it completely changed the trajectory of my career for sure. I think as for socially, I don't think it left me with much of a college experience or much ability to connect with other people, but that's a completely different topic in itself. I think what that period of online learning gave me was my career. I started freelancing full-time after my second internship. I completely attribute that to the amazing opportunity that Gunner gave me. They hired me as their intern that summer. I wrote them this very dorky email being like, "I really want to work with you guys, and I can work remotely. I'm super good at it, I promise.

I was able to freelance every single year after that. I think about my choice of going freelance after college versus taking a staff job often.

Had there been more in-person opportunities to be in a studio with people collaborating, looking over monitors, going staff would've been more of a consideration for me. But at the end of the day, when I graduated, everything was still Zoom-oriented. I felt most comfortable staying freelance and meeting new people and teams. 

Meryn Hayes:

Yeah, that's really interesting. We were down at SCAD at CoMotion back in March and talking to students who are about to graduate and obviously, there's a lot of opportunities going in staff or freelance and trying to give them some advice about options. And I always like to be very clear that I only have ever done 9-5 staff jobs, agency jobs, or in-house. So, I don't have the freelance perspective of freedoms, so I can only offer it slightly one-sided, and I hate to sound like Boomery, but I just know that early in my career I learned so much by sitting at a desk next to somebody just looking at asking questions, looking at their screen.

And so, part of me just feels for students who are graduating who don't have opportunities like that, or like you said, even now a lot of staff jobs are remote or hybrid and that's like, "Why am I going to go into the studio to then remote into somebody in Wisconsin or California?" And so, just finding out what people want to get out of that first experience after college and trying to find whether that's freelance or staff.

Dilo

Amanda Godreau:

I think the industry, in general, is going to find itself with a very different type of workforce because of this, I personally have the opinion that it ripples down 100%. You have people two years before me, so many people who graduated in 2020. The industry was so focused on just how to switch and not lose these giant pitches and how we work, which fair, needed to happen but left a gigantic question mark on how students and upcoming graduates view the industry.

Meryn Hayes:

Good leading question. I was going to go, "How, Amanda, do you fix it?" But you're going to tell us in at the Bash.

Amanda Godreau:

Going back to Ringling in March. I found a lot of good insight.  I did this amazing long two-day portfolio review with Doug Alberts from Noodle, and we got to talk one-on-one to students, and I really asked them, "How do you feel about this community? How well do you feel about jobs? What's your experience? Do you feel prepared as a senior?" And I got to get all this amazing feedback that I think is really informing how I'm trying to shape this presentation.

I had an existential crisis when you guys asked me to speak because I was like, "How am I supposed to speak to a room of people who have decades of experience over me?" I think my art is awesome, I'm my art's number one cheerleader, but we're in this very interesting time where there's so much more conversation to have about what we can do to support the youngest people in our industry and how that is essential for the better of everyone. That's what I'm interested in right now.

Meryn Hayes:

I mean, well, now I feel bad that we caused an existential crisis.

Amanda Godreau:

No, it was a good one.

Meryn Hayes:

Okay, good. But I think we would be remiss to not think about the younger generation. I mean, there's two schools of thought that we need to figure out how people retire in this industry. That's a whole other thing. But on the other side of that coin is figuring out what has changed in the last two, three, four decades as people have come into this industry. And hearing from people like you or others who are just getting into it. I mean, you have a valuable perspective, and if we don't account for both sides of that coin... We need to figure out how to include all of those ideas.

Amanda Godreau:

Yeah.

Ashley Targonski:

I think what's great about what you're talking about is it's a perspective that not a lot of our other speakers have because they have been in the industry for a while. So, hearing from someone who is newer in the industry, you've gone through all of this, I think it's going to be so interesting to hear you talk about that. And I think that's one of the main reasons we're doing this conference is to have real talks about the industry and really dive into these topics that you wouldn't normally hear.

Amanda Godreau:

I really struggled with figuring out what to talk about because, ideally a presentation, a 40, 50-minute presentation about my work would be amazing. But if I have faith in myself that I'm going to have a very long and probably great career, there's going to be so many more opportunities for me to do that. I think right now, we have a gigantic young workforce that really needs their voice to be heard. Even though this is just my perspective and my interpretation, hopefully, it's a great starting point to get the conversation going. That's my goal.

Meryn Hayes:

Yeah, I love that. Getting back into some of the work, what was it? So, you started doing graphic design when you switched to Ringling, and then a professor pulled you into animation, and pretty immediately, you headed to the 3D space?

Amanda Godreau:

No, I think we did 3D in our second year. So, the year that the world shut down in the spring, we took one introductory 3D class that was mandatory. I didn't even know 3D existed. I just fell into the course, and I was like, "Oh, this is so amazing."

Apart from coding, I was really invested in photography. When I started using 3D and Cinema- 4D, it felt natural. I could understand light, and the physics of it because I'd had to think about strobes, posing, etc. It felt a lot more familiar to me than traditional After Effects animation. I've always considered myself a designer, and I felt like there were infinitely more possibilities for me to design in a 3D space than a two-dimensional one without having also to animate. Animating is cool, it's just not my first love.

Meryn Hayes:

I love that. And I mean, it definitely seems like a natural progression of where your interests and your skills lie. And so, heading into a 3D direction, how have you been able to find clients as you started freelancing?

Amanda Godreau:

I’ve been really fortunate to have had an amazing and generous network that got me up an running while I was in school. It was a very, I think, organic thing. Post grad  I’ve enjoyed collaborating with the small businesses that I've been working with independently and that’s been a different experience. It’s a very meticulous, and consistent effort. I have this gigantic spreadsheet, and I did so much outreach trying not to sound like a spam email, essentially me being like, "Hey, work with me. I won't charge you or I'll charge you pennies." And they're like, "This isn't real."

I think I get a lot of young people who are still in college or while I was in college and they're like, "Would you recommend me going freelance?" And I would always say, "Absolutely not unless you have a big network of friends and colleagues” it’s a risky career move that requires you to be savvy not just creatively but financially. 

Meryn Hayes:

Yeah, absolutely. Well, that's why I got to think, again, as someone who hasn't freelanced, that just so much of it is about the connections you make. And so, going freelance right out of college to be really successful has to be a challenge. And the amount of connections that it takes and the outreach and the upkeep, I mean, those are just things that they weren't teaching when I went to college. And I just have to think a part of, as you say, as things shift with this new generation, how we teach them has to change too. It's not as it was in the olden days.

I was just telling Ashley earlier today we got a request from a client we've never worked with. It was a recommendation from some Mographers that I talked to literally three years ago. I haven't spoken with them since or really kept up a lot and they just must have mentioned our name to this client and here we are. And so, it just goes to show that those connections and that, they really matter and making a good impression and just reminding yourself that stuff might not immediately turn into a project or a relationship, but three years down the line it might, you never know.

Amanda Godreau:

Yeah, that's literally what I try to remind people. And I also try to remind people that I had a very non-traditional experience. I didn't just go to art school, I went to NYU for coding, before NYU I had a little bit of a stint in a university in Puerto Rico which got interrupted by the gigantic hurricane that we got hit with. That’s what brought me to the US in the first place. Before then, I was always really interested in spreadsheets and finances and business. I assisted wedding photographers for five years from middle school to high school. So, I was really used to working with people who owned their own businesses, doing a lot of the upkeep, the follow-up. I almost feel like the creative side has been the easiest in my freelance journey.

There's so many things that are just soft skills that go hand in hand with freelancing. I almost feel like I fell into it. 

Meryn Hayes:

Well, it sounds like, again, you worked really hard, but a lot of the disparate skills all connected to make this a really useful tool for you as you started. I mean, that's something that Ashley and I, producing is just a whole set of soft skills and something that if you go out freelancing without having been in-house or at an agency, you're essentially your own producer as well. And there's a reason why we exist. It's a whole job outside of the creative and not being exposed to what that entails I think sometimes causes people to start freelancing and then they think they're a failure of not being successful when they just haven't set themselves up to be successful because they didn't know it existed. You know? Don't know what you don't know.

Amanda Godreau:

Yeah, exactly. Producing is a whole other thing. I actually considered doing a production internship after graduating because I'm so interested in it. But again, I feel like that's just where my interest lies. Production to me is as interesting as creating and I don't think that's a very popular opinion. I might be wrong.

Etsy

Meryn Hayes:

We love hearing it, we love to hear that.

Amanda Godreau:

Yeah! Many of my good friends are producers. I strongly believe that the success of a creative project is dependent on the work that goes before you even start thinking about what it looks like. And I think that's pretty cool of you guys.

Ashley Targonski:

Looking at your growth path, I thought it was really interesting that you had a talk with Maxon in 2021 when you were still in school. You've also won their Rookie Award. So, I wanted to see how that journey and experience because you were so new at the Cinema 4D program, but then you're talking about it just seeing it a year later, which is amazing.

Amanda Godreau:

Yeah, I feel like all my experiences have been so surreal. When Maxon reached out asking me to present at their 3D Show  I was like, "Are you aware that I've been using this program for under a year?" At that point.

I think I've had to constantly reinforce that I’m deserving of the opportunities that come my way. Imposter syndrome is so real. Sarah Beth did an amazing talk at the Bash last time. I think perspective is the most important thing we can have. I think my art is awesome and while I might not be the most technically experienced person in the room, I have such a passion for design, I feel like I'm very methodical in the ways that I do and that has inherent value…

It really resonated with me when you mentioned about how you appreciated the topic of which I'm speaking on about at Dash this year because it's something that compared to the rest of the lineup of the speaker, is very unique to my experience. I feel like that's how I've approached my career in general because although this is a very young industry and figuring out how people are even going to retire in this industry is a big question mark,  looking at what I can give, being like, "Okay, I'm this person in this room, what can I do to not just be of use for myself, but to others?"

Ashley Targonski:

I really love that. And just I think you understand that while you're still in college and it's something that you're living by even today as you continue to grow as an artist, that's really cool because in college I was like, "I don't know what I'm doing." I'm just going with the flow. 

Amanda Godreau:

No one knows. Yeah, I think it's so powerful and it's if you don't learn how to do that, especially as women, especially as a Black woman, it's so easy to undervalue yourself. "Oh, I'm not the smartest. Oh, I don't have the most years of experience. Oh, I've never done this before." I think shaping your perspective is vital to existing in this industry as someone who's not typically what you think of when you think of a CG designer. 

Meryn Hayes:

That is so important. I mean, I think nobody knows what they're doing and when you figure that out, it helps a whole hell of a lot. I think as women we've spent way too much time doubting ourselves and trying to find space where normally you would be in that place of self-doubt. 

Think about all the other things, all of the other time we would have, if we weren't doubting ourselves for every second of every day or every move, or how do we sound in X email? I mean, I have had to do a whole heck of a lot of unlearning to ignore those instincts. When you get in moments of self-doubt like that, where do you go? What's your headspace? How do you combat that?

Amanda Godreau:

I think I just remind myself that my career isn't that important. And I know that sounds counterproductive, but coming from a different culture where work isn't seen as the number one thing you strive for has been a huge factor.  I've only lived stateside for four and a half years, and I think people forget that because they don't hear an accent.

In devaluing the amount of importance that I place on my career previously, I’ve been able to shift my headspace to, "I'm going to show up because I want to, not because I have to." At least for me, that’s flipped my mindset into being able to set better boundaries with myself and others work-wise and personally. I also have put a lot of importance into making friends with people who have nothing to do with the creative world. I have friends who are engineers and city planners, etc. Being around people who can separate my creative value from my personal value, especially this year has made the biggest difference.

It’s made me realize the importance of separating your own self-worth to what other people creatively think about you or as a professional. That's been really important. 

Meryn Hayes:

Yeah, that's a good point. It's like we're so ingrained in our little bubble that it's a good reminder that a whole world, a whole lot of worlds exist outside of the Mograph community. And again, going back to how the world inspires art, talking with people outside of the community and talking with people in different disciplines, all of that is stuff that can give you an idea or inspire you in ways you weren't expecting. And also, it's just nice to meet people who are not the same as you.

Amanda Godreau:

Yeah, it's so much easier. Like, can we talk about how successful everyone in this industry is? No matter what they do. I remember last year being a senior or graduating and being like, "Oh my God, I'm so behind." I used to be so hard on myself. 

It's not until I started hanging out with other people in their early twenties in other career paths, that I got a really healthy dose of, "You need to get some perspective." Because it can be really deceptive to be surrounded by, studio owners, successful freelancers, art directors, and NFT artists who all are financially doing so well. 

It’s easy to forget what you do have, and what you should be grateful for. It's been so helpful for me to just sit down and be like, "You're losing perspective. You have ownership of your own time. You set your own salary. You get to pick and choose and say yes and no to work opportunities. And that's not something that most people ever get to do, period."

Meryn Hayes:

Well, I hope everyone comes to the Bash for many reasons, but I hope that that is one thing that people can take away from the Bash. I mean, back in 2021, I just feel like the honesty and the stories we got from our speakers last time were in comparison to all conferences or design festivals. It wasn't just get up there and talk about your work for 45 minutes and, "Oh, I worked with Nike and Google, and look how successful I am." But it's, "Here's why this was a challenge. Here's where I thought my career was over and then I started something new." Or fuck hustle, what TJ said, so having those honest conversations because everything's bright and shiny and if we all look successful, that's great.

But then for students who are just starting, or people just entering the industry, not even just students. You automatically feel like a failure if you're not an award-winning studio owner or you sold an NFT for a bajillion dollars. And so, that imposter syndrome is easy to walk into because you just walk into the industry doubting yourself.

Amanda Godreau:

Yeah, it's so bad. And like Ashley mentioned I was doing the Maxon 3D show. I won the Rookie Award. I graduated I got to have my work in Beeple’s studio opening in North Carolina. I remember that last experience so well because I felt like I couldn't look at my own work on a screen.

I felt like a complete imposter. I was like, "This isn't real.” "I don't want to look at my work." And I had to seriously sit myself down that night and be like, "What's going on? Am I the only one that feels this way? Why do I feel this way?" It’s so easy to think people don’t feel that way about their own work when you’re just experiencing them through social media. I’ve had students come up to me and say "I don't feel great, and I have to feel great to be able to do what you do." And I'm like, "The secret is I'm still learning how to feel great about it." I'm still learning how to accept it, how to not minimize my hard work, how to not just say, "It fell into my lap, or it was just luck."

And acknowledge that there were so many hours put in, so much burnout that happened. Giving yourself credit for the things you’ve accomplished is definitely something that’s been a learned skill. Despite how I might feel sometimes, I can often acknowledge that you can hold two truths at the same time. 

Meryn Hayes:

Yeah, I mean, even in this conversation, you said that everything fell into your lap, but you worked really hard and then the right opportunity came along. Those two things, those truths can be true. 

Amanda Godreau:

Exactly. I have to catch myself all the time.

Ashley Targonski:

I think that's something I've had to also deal with a lot is imposter syndrome. And I was managing teams and I was still like, "Why are they asking me to do stuff? Because I don't know what I'm doing." And I obviously did. But I think a large thing that you're saying that I really think is great is you are meeting all these people, you're creating opportunities for yourself to have more opportunities in the future. So, just taking every chance you have to be able to have another opportunity later. I think that's so important for when you're young, but then also as you continue to grow throughout your career.

Amanda Godreau:

Yeah, I mean, it reminds me of why I do what I do. Yesterday I had this amazing call with the founder of a brand. She founded a brand for this luxury fragrance spray. They've won all these awards. The founder is also Black and she's manufacturing this in the Bronx which is amazing. When I saw her brand I immediately messaged her, and I was like, "Oh my God, I love your perfume. Can I please work with you? You don't have to pay me. Can I just please help support this vision?" And I got a call with her yesterday, and she's said, "You don't know how hard I've looked for a creative that understands my  perspective." "I looked everywhere. I couldn't find anyone." "How do you find other people creatives like you?" 

And I remember telling her, "I don't know. I don't really know anyone like me." 

That's a conversation I've had so many times. I think even last year, Meryn, when I was on Sarah Beth's Motion Coven podcast, I mentioned the number of times I get on a call where I'm the only woman there, and it’s assumed I'm the producer instead of a 3D designer." 

I always ask people, "Hey, does anyone ever know another Black female 3D artist?” Looking at how big our industry is, I can't find someone who looks like me in the same feild. I don’t think that's something that everyone who does have that privilege is entirely conscious of.

Motion Design feels like a family to so many folks in it, or at least that’s a sentiment I’ve heard enough to remember. But it has to feel like that for more than a homogenous group. There was a very visible push for DEI initiatives around 2020 and George Floyd’s murder but efforts have become less and less public as time has passed. 

Meryn Hayes:

Well, A, I'll see those people out personally. I think it's also how we move forward holistically for a sustained period of time. Like you said that there was this big push after George Floyd's murder. Everyone posted on social media and talked about bringing in more diverse groups and finding freelancers in communities that weren't of their own. But that push has to continue and be sustained across the entire industry. It's hard to push a rock up a hill if you're just by yourself, right? It has to be the community. And so, obviously, that's something that we've talked a lot about internally.

And I was, back in March, in CoMotion, we had a diversity and equity panel. We were talking and someone in the audience asked how we felt about the industry moving ahead, looking ahead. And I think the thing that boggles my mind is looking at the crowd at CoMotion, looking at Ringling, the minority of people in that group was white men by far. There were more women in the audience at CoMotion, and most of them were not white. And so, I have hopes looking ahead that the opportunities that people are given now, finding communities, like the animation industry can happen at earlier ages, right? In college. But the barriers of cost and equipment and finding places like SCAD or Ringling, I mean, that's a huge investment that communities don't have the opportunity to find.

Future Proof 2022

Amanda Godreau:

I also think that looking at colleges specifically, art colleges, student bodies aren't the best way to project what the industry is going to look like. I think that while it's great to have hope in what student bodies look like, that's not going to change until the people doing the hiring have more knowledge, and perspective to be able to acknowledge what our biases are.

You have to acknowledge it in order to move past it. It might not seem like an issue to most people, because in theory your race, gender, or identity has nothing to do with the technical aspects and ability of doing a job. However, it leaves a gigantic void for mentorship. I want to be an art director, ideally a creative director, at some point in my career but I can't point to what that looks like for a Black woman. I can't ask anyone for advice and be like, "As a Black woman, how did you navigate x, y z to become a creative director?" There's no one that I know of for me to ask. And I've asked. I've asked every single time I'm on a call with a studio, when they ask, "Do you have any questions?" My question is, "Do you know any Black women AD’s, CDs?" I'm actively asking.

Even if I am here moving through my career, the road to success for these career paths is inherently absent. 

Meryn Hayes:

Insane.

Ashley Targonski:

This ties into something we talked to Macaela from Newfangled about, but they have created a DIB section of their company. And when they work on projects, they find people in those communities who actually work on those projects and understand. They do the research; they talk to them about their experiences. And I think that's so integral to... That's what everyone should be doing. We should really be understanding, we shouldn't have this person on this project that doesn't know anything about what we're doing. Let's talk to the communities. Yeah.

Amanda Godreau:

I also think that leads to a really good opportunity to talk about possible jobs in this industry that don't exist in this industry. Because listen, I can say all day that my information is in my bio, on my website. But the truth is, producers are often also super overworked. You can't expect them to be reading the bio of every single artist that they're reaching out to. It's impossible. 

I feel like that's a huge opportunity in motion design that could lead to even more jobs and a more diverse workforce. Producers do so much, they keep track of so many things. 

Meryn Hayes:

I was also just re-reading Bien’s blog post for their Q&A, and they were talking about Double the Line efforts. Do you know about that program?

Amanda Godreau:

I don't!

Meryn Hayes:

It comes from the Association of Independent Producers (AICP, essentially for every job they have, they create a second line item in the budget for whatever it is, cel animation or illustration, to bring on an underrepresented minority group. So, a Black cel artist to pair with a senior cel artist so that they get opportunities to work on a project or on a client work that otherwise they wouldn't get. And then they have that as an opportunity to show on their portfolio, like, "Hey, I did this."

And so, bringing people into positions that they previously wouldn't have an opportunity because they don't have the connections yet. We talked about how important those connections are early on in finding jobs or careers. 

Amanda Godreau:

That's amazing. I think that's an amazing thing for a studio to be doing. Going back to the conversation about SCAD and Ringling, I think that also has to be part of the conversation is that while it might be really convenient for studios to hire out of Ringling and SCAD because it's the standard, and you do come out industry ready. I think there are a lot of colleges and programs that are also overlooked that might have equally as amazing talent.

Last year I went to speak to the students at CUNY in Brooklyn. To my surprise when I arrived, I realized that not only was the professor Black, but so was the entire student body. Not only that but mostly black women. This was a Cinema 4D class.

I think that's the only time in my career where I've been in a room full of people who looked like me. I felt really conflicted when I left because they were there, talented, and learning with such amazing questions, and I couldn’t give them advice that was relevant to their experience. I had a huge leg up with going to a private art institution.

I carry some privileges. I feel very conflicted when I’m used as an example for someone who is a minority who’s moving through our industry. I often feel like the worst example. I went to a very expensive art school. I so happened to have my own business in high school that paid for a huge chunk of my college education. I come from a family of academics and had little to no barrier for entry when applying for college." While my experience has value, merit and includes a lot of hard work. No one should be used as a rule for "If they did it, why can’t you?"

Meryn Hayes:

Yeah, yeah. I think that's a good reminder. Just like you said that again, it's setting people up for failure, right? When you don't see all of those privileges that you know you've had and that I know I've had, and other people have had. You don't see that. And when you compare yourself to someone else, "Amanda did it, why aren't you doing it?"

Amanda Godreau:

Yeah. 

Meryn Hayes:

Thank you. We're just so glad to have you come in and really can't thank you enough for participating, being willing, and we're looking forward to your talk!

Amanda Godreau:

I'm so excited. This is my favorite conference.

Ashley Targonski:

Can we quote you on that?

Amanda Godreau:

Yeah, totally.

Meryn Hayes:

It's going to be the Bash, the homepage. It's going to be a huge quote. Amanda says...”MY FAVORITE CONFERENCE”

Meryn Hayes:

Cool. Good chatting, Amanda. We'll see you soon!

Meet the speakers: Wes Louis

An interview with Wes Louis: a director, designer, and animator at The Line known for his unique design sensibility and his dramatic action-led animation sequences.

Q&A hosted by Mack Garrison.

Read time: 15min

---

Mack Garrison:

Wesley, I'm really pumped for this conversation because, well, one, if you don't know this already, you guys do phenomenal work. I mean, the cel work you guys produce, just really top tier, top quality.

Wes Louis:

Thank you, man, I appreciate that.

Mack Garrison:

I was talking to Dotti over at Golden Wolf, because she was at the Bash last time. She spoke on behalf of Golden Wolf there. She was talking about how highly she thinks of you guys and that for a long time you kept winning and losing to each other on pitches. It was just always you guys going back and forth.

Wes Louis:

Yeah, that is exactly right. They would do something and then we would do something, and they would do something but it feels kind of healthy. It's strange to say, because you think to yourself, "Well, I mean they are a rival company," but actually we have quite a good relationship with them. Anytime they have their summer parties or other events, they invite us over. We have a good laugh and a few drinks, so it's a healthy competitive space.

Mack Garrison:

I remember getting out of school and being so green in this space, not knowing anything, but how many people were willing to help me. Even growing from junior up to senior as an animator, and then again, starting the studio, and how people were just willing to share advice. I've never met a space that feels as communal as the motion design space really is. 

Wes Louis:

I just think it’s what makes the space a better place to work in. No one's holding their cards too close to their chest. It's weird, because intuitively you’d think keeping what's unique about you secret would be the way to go but, the opposite has benefits. One of our other directors, Sam, always talks to guys from Animade or Moth Collective about all sorts. We all go to the same festivals, hang out and talk. "Well how did you do that or  show the best way to do this?" it's a weird but nice little community we have

Mack Garrison:

It feels different, because I feel like it's not like that in the rest of the creative space. Even agencies, I know agencies are kind of cutthroat with each other, but studios, for whatever reason, it's not. I think it's because, as a studio owner, I feel like people start studios because they really love a singular craft. 

Wes Louis:

Yeah, exactly, you're coming from the same place. And I think with us specifically, because all the directors of the company, we're all animators or compositors, we all come from creative backgrounds. I think we just have more of an understanding of people that work with us as well. So we understand burnout, we understand what it feels like not to want to work on something that maybe you're not feeling inspired by.

Mack Garrison:

So I run Dash with a business partner. We were both animators back in the day. We animated for basically a decade before trying our hand at running a shop and I think there's a difference. When leadership knows how to animate, you don't put your team in bad situations. Even just understanding what's reasonable, what's not, what's a hard request, what's not, and to be able to talk through that. I think you get into trouble when it gets too much on the business-oriented side of things. 

Wes Louis:

Definitely. We worked on a  Gorillaz music video with Jamie Hewlett. The turnaround for that, I think it was something ridiculous, six or eight weeks, and we did it because, I mean, it's the Gorillaz….

Mack Garrison:

This is the Humility piece, right?

Wes Louis:

Yeah.

Mack Garrison:

That you did that in 6 weeks. That's ridiculous.

Gorillaz Humility

Wes Louis:

Yeah, it was crazy. It was like a six-week turnaround to get everything done. Max and Tim were directing it. Tim's a massive Jamie Hewlett fan, so that's like a dream come true project just landing on his plate. We took the job, but I think everybody, including the directors, worked so hard on it. They were working late, working until 10 o'clock at night and all that kinds. We really understood what our staff was going through and I think they appreciated that we acknowledged that we were pushing them to the limit, but then we also said, "We're never doing that again," because you're breaking the people that are working for you. So while The project gave the studio a lot of street cred, it also made us really examine our working practices because the people who work for us are important. I mean animation is hard enough as it is without you having to come home after hours every night and you're not spending time with your friends and family. So you want to try and find a balance. I mean, sometimes it happens where a crunch happens and you have to stay a bit later, but I think nine times out of 10 it's definitely more of an exception than a rule. Whereas I know some companies are like, "No, you've got to work on the weekend and you've got to work on this, you've got to work that." We try not to do that.

Mack Garrison:

A hundred percent. We feel the same way. And I think part of it was also that self-reflection after the pandemic where priorities just totally switched for people. It's like, "Look, this is just a job." We like it, I love animation, but there's stuff outside of it. We all have stuff outside of it, right?

Mack Garrison:

I want to get back into some of the stuff you guys are doing at Line, because like I said, it's phenomenal. But maybe take me back to the beginning.

Wes Louis:

Yeah, so my family's Caribbean, St. Lucian. My parents were born over there. But I was born and raised here in London. As a child I was always into animation, just generally, Saturday morning cartoons, anime shows. I'd always been drawn well. I've been drawing since I was five-years-old... and never really put it down. So it was something that I think people thought it would just be a hobby that went away, and it never did. I was doing anything that could probably lead me into comics or animation, any excuse to draw.  Graphic design was the closest thing I could find to do that. And even on graphic design projects, I was always trying to do some sort of character design or animation orientated thing. But yeah, I studied multimedia for a bit and I dropped out of that because I just wasn't happy doing the course, so I spent a few years working in retail and doing office work and all this stuff. And I think it was like 27, that I just asked myself the question, "If money and logistics weren't a factor, what would I be doing?" And animation just kept coming back, so I kind of worked my way backwards and just started saving for it and doing odd jobs so I can save money, so I could take a year or two off just so I can do a course in animation. 

Mack Garrison:

So you did graphic design, you kind of dropped out of the multimedia side because you weren't vibing with it as much. You wanted to get more into the traditional, kind of cel animation. Is that what was drawing your interest mainly?

Wes Louis:

Yeah that's what it is. Even when I was doing retail, I remember I was working in a store called Hamleys, it's like a toy store, a big toy store in London on Regent Street. And I remember they would ask me to do graphic design things every now and then, but I was working behind the tills. And I remember applying for a job in the display department, where they would decorate displays and all that kind of stuff. And I thought, "Yeah, this would be perfect." And it's funny, the head of display, showed him my CV, showed my work. He is like, "Yeah, you're amazing," all this kind stuff. He's like, "But I'm not going to give you a job." I was like, "Why?" "Because you're too good for here." I was like, "Why?. He is like, "If you want to go and work in this, then get off your ass and go and find somewhere to work, but I'm not giving you a job here." And he refused to give me a job.

Mack Garrison:

Wow.

Wes Louis:

Yeah. There was also a point where I tried to go full-time in Hamleys, because I was working three or four days a week, and my manager at the time refused to give me a job. She refused to let me work full-time. I was like, "What's going on?" She goes, "Oh, I see you..." Because I would do a lot of doodles on till receipt paper  while I'm waiting for customers. I've still got loads of them at home. She was like, "I always see you drawing on these receipts and you're just sitting here." And she goes, "Why aren't you going out and looking for real work in what you love?" I didn't really have a proper answer for her, because I was quite young at the time. But she's like, "Look, I'm not giving you a job here." She goes, "If you want to work a few days a week, that's fine, I can't stop you but don't try and apply for any other department, because if you try and apply, I'm going to tell them not to hire you."

Mack Garrison:

No way.

Wes Louis:

They just literally would not let me work full time there. 

Mack Garrison:

That's so crazy. It's that early confidence push and kind of validation that what you're doing, what you're creating means something.

Wes Louis:

I think that's what it was. I actually did reach out to her (Her name is Julia) just to tell her thank you for doing that, pushing me. So I think from then I just went into work with more of a focus. I made a decision to become an animator and spent time working and  saving up for a Postgraduate animation course at Central Saint Martins in  London. It's funny, because when I went to visit the college they'd had the end of year show, and for some reason, that year it was incredible. So I worked so hard to get on that course, man, believing I wasn't good enough to get on the course. I was doing life drawing classes every weekend. I think I was doing it twice a week. And I went on to an art exchange program in Prague with conceptart.org, hosted by a company called Massive Black.

Mack Garrison:

Well it had to be good validation for you on this career path too, because I know when you find something you're really into, you get into this flow state where it's not work anymore. It's all this stuff that you're trying to get better at and it's hard, but it's fun. You're excited, you want to jump in and just learn as much as you can. It's a totally different vibe versus if you're in something you're not digging.

Wes Louis:

Oh, I think that's 100% true. And I could even point to projects I've done where I know the flow state versus not being in a flow state, for sure. 

I did a lot of work to get on the course. I even visited the university a couple of times to speak to the head lecturer just to talk.  "Ah," he goes, "you again." So I would go up there, spend about 20 minutes with him, keep in mind I lived an hour away from the university at the time. I'm showing him my sketchbook just asking questions “is this good? Do I need to draw more of this?” It really was an excuse to be in that environment with lightboxes and students flippings animation paper. It was the closest thing to an animation studio I'd ever been in and I loved it. By the time I had my interview he was just like, "All right, well let's see how we can get rid of you then." But he was joking, very British humor. He said, "Your portfolio is incredible. What took you so long," sort of thing. So he was like, "Of course we want you on the course. 

Mack Garrison:

Right.

Wes Louis:

I had worked so hard to get on the course, because I just thought I wasn't good enough so I didn't take it for granted.  I studied for a year.  That's where I met Tim McCourt, who was on the same course as me. After the course finished, I spent about six months trying to finish my thesis film, which I didn't.

Mack Garrison:

That's great.

Wes Louis:

I really tried to finish. I thought there was something wrong with me because it was like, "Why can't I finish this?" And I was trying to get a certain amount of quality in a certain amount of time, but I just couldn't do it. Just not realizing that, actually animation takes time and it takes a team. And I'm trying to do this, Disney level stuff by myself.

Mack Garrison:

That's a lot. That's a lot to put on your plate. So you never finished the thesis?

Wes Louis:

No, I didn't finish but I really tried. I worked on it for a few months after the course but it was so much harder trying to do it from home. About 6 months after uni,I moved to Scotland. I was working at a company called Ink Digital on this film called Illusionist, as an inbetweener cleanup artist. I even tried to finish my thesis film there, redesigned the characters and everything.  Even at that point, I wasn't very confident in animation. I just couldn't understand how to do it. I remember meeting with an animator at Django Films (that was the main studio for the Illusionist where all the animation took place) She gracefully took time out to show me around and show me her work and process. Within half an hour she said and My understanding of animation completely changed. If you asked me to do my thesis film today, be it two months or three months I’d finish it. I’d know what to animate, what to cheat etc.

Mack Garrison:

What did she say to you? 

Wes Louis:

I said, "So what's your breakdown?" She goes, "I don't really think about it that way, I just do the motion. And then I find a breakdown afterwards." She showed me her sketches and demonstrated her method. It just made sense.  It was Aya Suzuki, actually. She's gone on to work with directors like Hayo Myazakiand she's an incredible animator. It was just a half an hour chat and it was like things clicked all of a sudden where the things that I was struggling to do weren't hard anymore, because now I understood what it was. And it was just basically her process of how she put an idea down and got the movement down. I think my problem was getting too in the weeds of it, I was trying to understand what's a breakdown, what's a key. I think those things matter when you're passing off the animation to somebody else, but when you're doing it yourself, it doesn't matter that much, you know? There might be some people that disagree with me, but that was just for me, it just made sense the way she went about it.

Mack Garrison:

Tell me about some of the projects that came after that?

Wes Louis:

So when I got back from Scotland, I met up with Tim again and we worked on our first short film together. We spent about a year doing that at a Partizan. We were very fortunate to have a space to work for free as Tim had a good relationship with one of the producers at the time.  We thought it would take us three months, it took us about a year. And we got an award from the Westminster Arts Council. So they were giving out money for people to make films and stuff... so I think they gave us 4,000 pounds, which seemed like a lot at the time.

Mack Garrison:

Yeah, of course.

Wes Louis:

I mean, me and Tim weren't getting paid for it, we were doing freelance work for Partizan so we could keep on going. We learnt a lot doing that. After that I guess the project that made me more well known was Super Turbo Atomic Ninja Rabbit, I just went full steam ahead. It was a  style of animation I'd never approached before. I've never done anything like it which is ironic because my love of animation really is rooted in action and anime.  There was no reason for me to think I could do it except that I just wanted to so I just went ahead and tried. Also got a friend Rina May to do the music and BXFTYS on sound fx. Actually let me backup, I'm jumping around a bit. After me and Tim made our film, we went around looking for work as directors. Turns out it doesn't really work in that way. You don't just go and apply to be a director.

Super Turbo Atomic Ninja Rabbit

Mack Garrison:

Yeah, right. Like, "I'd like to work here please." And it's like, "No, thank you."

Wes Louis:

Yeah, yeah. "I'd like to work as a director." It's like, "Not really, no." 

Mack Garrison:

That's great.

Wes Louis:

I did show my portfolio though and a few weeks later it was like, "Oh, yeah, we like your work we have some jobs on if you're interested. That was at Nexus in London." And I was working there freelance for about a year and Tim was doing freelance at Partizan and some other places. While Tim was on the job, he met with Sam Taylor, James Duveen and Bjorn Erik Aschim, the other partners at The Line. Sam was looking for a studio space at the time and was asking if we were interested in sharing a space, and not even as a company but just people who animate together and have a shared space while working different freelance jobs. I couldn’t really afford it at the time but we had a friend Fritzi who had a desk and she was letting me use it at the time and eventually I took over from her. While at the studio Tim got approached by some of the runners who were at Partizan who now have their own company, Bullion Productions. They got a job from the Ministry of Sound to do a music video for Mat Zo and Porter Robinson and asked if Tim and I were up for directing  because they knew we made our short film at Partizan. So it was like, "Yeah, sure." And then the other guys we were sharing a space with, they were just finishing up their film Everything I can See From Here, so we were like, "Oh, if you guys aren't doing anything, we'd like to hire you to work on our project." So the six of us worked on this project together and it went so well. It was an incredible experience. We just said, "Oh, how about we start a collective, we can just consolidate our work and take it further?" That's basically when we formed The Line. 

Mack Garrison:

It's perfect.

Wes Louis:

Soon after Bjorn got contacted by Electric Theatre Collective (ETC) to do some concept art and they were asking, "Do you know any animators or character designers?" He's like, "Oh, I actually know five guys."

 So we went over there and we were working together for a while. They gave us some funding to make our first official The Line original projects. Amaro and Walden's Joyride and Super Turbo Atomic Ninja Rabbit. Ideas we had for a couple years. We were working on those productions simultaneously and released them a month apart, maybe two. I think that these projects gave us our notoriety.  From then we just started getting commercial projects. We were at ETC for about 3 years I think but eventually ended up leaving to actually start our own studio. No hard feelings or anything, it just became harder to function the way we wanted to as directors. We thought, "Let's see if we can start our own company." I mean the options then were, to either leave and try and make some more money  to build ourselves back up, and then hopefully regroup again, which probably wouldn't have happened. Or let's just go for it and start a company. So we pooled some money together, got a studio space and our first job came within 2 months and….

Mack Garrison:

The rest is history.

Wes Louis:

... five years later  we've got, I think about we have roughly 40 people with us including the 6 founders.

Mack Garrison:

Man, that's crazy. 

Wes Louis:

James counted about, over three or four projects, we had about 110 people working with us at one time.

Mack Garrison:

Wow. That's crazy.

Wes Louis:

Yeah, it is a bit surreal, because you're looking around and you're like- "I don't exactly know how this works but it is working, and it's great."

Mack Garrison:

Oh, no, it's really cool. So a couple of things I picked up on there, Wesley that I think is really interesting and I want to poke at a bit is, so you get out of school, you end up on this Illusionist project, you're kind of navigating the process a bit, but then it kind of starts to click. You and Tim, then after the Illusionist, work on your personal project, right. What film was that that you guys were doing?

Wes Louis:

Drawing Inspiration.

Mack Garrison:

Drawing Inspiration, that's right. So you're doing these films or this entertainment side of things and then you end up from that side into kind of the commercial space a bit from there. But I like how when you even refer to the projects you're working on, you're referring to them as films. Everything you do has this artistic lens. And I do think there's this balance in animation with art versus design, right?

Wes Louis:

Yeah.

Mack Garrison:

How did you navigate that as you got into that world and all of a sudden these projects, which I'm sure you had thoughts on, on how you want it to be, is now getting pushback from clients who are paying you for it and they want it done a certain way and you're like, "That's killing the artistic style of it." How does the artist versus designer kind of come into play for you these days?

Wes Louis:

That's a really interesting question. I mean even the short films that we made, people ask, "How do you make the time to make those films and do what you want? It's insane." And the answer is, it is insane. It sounds very cliche, but we were too stupid to know that you're not supposed to do these kinds of things. We made two short films in a year simultaneously, while trying to do freelance projects. And that's crazy, because I was working, I mean we were working weekends, evenings and stuff, and it's not an easy thing to do. But like you said, if you love what you're doing, you don't really perceive it as work, you just perceive it as this thing that you need to get done.

In terms of the commercial side, I think earlier on I would say we did get projects that you'd get weird client pushback. I remember doing a project and I literally had the clients standing behind me while I was doing a drawing.

Mack Garrison:

No! I would've quit. I would've been out.

Wes Louis:

Oh god, it was like the Apprentice. There were about three or four of them and I was drawing a face. "Oh, do this in the lips. Move it, move it. No, push it up, push it down. Make her eyes bigger. Make it smaller." And the drawing, at the end of it, I just remember sitting there thinking, "This is not going in my portfolio, this is the worst piece of work I've ever done.”

And luckily, I mean they kind of doubled back and they were like, "Oh, actually, this is not working." And then I had to redesign it from scratch and they just kind of left us to it. But actually, generally speaking, I feel like our clients have been really good. And I think that's because of the short films that we've made. And I think the thing that we realize is, if we make the things that we want to make and make it high quality, people hopefully will come to us for what we do rather than what someone else does. And I think that brings about a certain amount of trust from our client as well. So if we show them something that we've done that they're interested in. So anytime we get a pitch in, well a lot of the times they will point to other people's work, but it will always have our work in there. "Oh, when you did this on this project, this was great. We'd love more of this and stuff." 

Mack Garrison:

It's almost like, concept-wise with references to other things, but stylistically it always comes back to you all. So you know you're in the right lane.

Wes Louis:

Yeah. So actually when we are doing stuff, nine times out of ten, I would say you do get satisfaction from the client work. Obviously it's not going to be 100% your way and I think there's an expectation of that. Look, someone's paying you to do this and you put your best foot forward and say, "Look, I really don't think this is a good idea because," and they do listen and then sometimes it's someone higher than the person you're talking to is like, "No, we definitely want this." "Oh, okay, that's fine." I always take our client projects as a space to learn as well.

Mack Garrison:

Sure, sure.

Acura

Wes Louis:

I'm getting paid to learn how to do something a little bit differently and apply it to my own work and to the studio as well. I mean the whole reason we started it  is so that we can make our own stuff. We actually put some of our profits back into personal and development projects. We’ve actually got a few in development at the moment and one hopefully dropping late-summer.

Mack Garrison:

Perfect. That will be a perfect time to roll it in for the summer and share it on the big screen here in Raleigh.

Wes Louis:

Yeah, exactly. It's a short. Our films are quite short so typically they’re made in the style of a trailer or a music video, because to try and do anything longer can be quite difficult if you want something really long form. Doing shorts like this gives us a chance to kind of put stuff out there, our own identity and have people in the studio play around on things that they probably wouldn't normally get to do at other studios. We've actually got another director, who is the first director doing a personal project outside of the six of us.

Mack Garrison:

How does that feel? Because I do think there's something about as you progress as a studio or owner, you can't have your hand in everything. You can't always see stuff. Does it feel weird to get to this space where there's a director kind of rolling with something and you're not really sure what's going on? 

Wes Louis:

It's weird. I think even just not being hands-on is a little bit frustrating for me. I got into it so I can draw and animate and I'm not  drawing and animating anymore. And even people have said to me, "Oh, I don't really see your work anymore." It really is rewarding though, to see an animator go from a junior assist role to directing a project on her own project; leading a team of people, having her own voice and having the respect of all her peers supporting her, I think is amazing. I think none of us are under the illusion that we're always going to be relevant and it's nice to be able to build a space with the resources we have that can trickle down to the next generation. And they create stuff, and they do better than we ever could.

Mack Garrison:

I think, well because you look back and you look at the stuff that you've gone through and you learn about things that you really liked and the people that pushed you. Even your retail boss, don't do this, or your colleague who's like, "Think about it this way," and there's all these moments with these spaces where that's conducive. And so I think as leaders, you try to create that space at your studio. What are the things that you really wanted? What are the things that you can create an area for someone to try stuff to fail and stuff to grow and to learn? And so that's got to be a huge highlight at The Line.

Wes Louis:

Yeah,  it is something that I think we speak about we're proud of. I mean, we don't always get everything right, we're still learning.

Mack Garrison:

Sure.

Wes Louis:

But I think more often than not from what people have said, unless they're lying to us, they're comfortable working or they like it, they feel supported, they feel like they've been heard and they get to put their ideas across. We've got this initiative that our development manager has put forward. So basically, we give 10 days to each person on the staff every year to just go in and play. The caveat is that it has to benefit the company in some sort of way. So it could be they go in, find a new system for production or just learn how to draw something a little bit better. Anything they want. It doesn't have to be something they present, it's just 10 days for people to go and play, because sometimes you wait for downtime to happen and sometimes there is no downtime. So it's like, all right, here's 10 days. And actually, some of the projects that we're working on now came from that. In fact, there's about three projects that have come from our exploration time where people have gone away, had 10 days to think about something that they weren't thinking about before, and then they've come back and said, "Oh, actually, I've got a great idea." It's like, "All right, let's make that, let's put some money into that so you get to have a bit of a creative outlet.

Mack Garrison:

That's cool. I love that. And I love the buy-in from folks too, because it makes people feel like they're bought into the studio. They're bringing their ideas to the table and the studio's rallying around them, which is really nice too.

Wes Louis:

I think that the thing with us is that we're like, "Oh, it would be so cool if we had this when we were coming up." We're like, "All right, well let's just do it for our staff." And it seems to be working.

Mack Garrison:

Do y'all feel good where you are now or do you want to continue to expand? Do you have any big, broader goals for the company?

Wes Louis:

It's funny you say that, because we literally are in a kind of space where we're trying to reestablish and just remember where we came from and use that to inform where we're going. So I'm from the Caribbean, as I said before, and what I've been doing is I've started this kind of program with a company in Jamaica called ListenMi, they're an animation company. And basically I just give them an hour a week or hour every two weeks of my time just sharing insight into just how animation works and helping them, in a sense, kind of level up. Because I think you've got loads of animators or aspiring animators in the Caribbean who just don't have the resources or people to teach them.

And I know I learn a lot because I've spoken to people around me and I've got access to certain things. And I guess for me personally, I would love The Line to be one of these spaces where, I don't know, it has some sort of academic program, training, and internship. And that's something that I have started trying out. I don't know where it's going to go. I feel like this is something that could take the next 10 years, it could take 20 years or something, I don't know. But I do recognize that, for instance, you've got places like Korea where the American animation was being outsourced to them and now they've just got incredible studios like Studio Mir for example. I think that's how you grow an industry. And I feel like the dream for me would be, reaching out to these places and training them up so that they can start. Eventually, we can outsource work to them and they grow and get better. And then they can start creating their own works, and then it trickles down to the schools and now you've got a thriving industry. So that's the kind of influence I would like the company to have.

Mack Garrison:

I really appreciate what you were saying on the community side. It's hard to give back when everything costs money, but one thing you can always do is time and attention. And just giving your time back to people knowing that when you were their age or that early part of your career, that that's what you really just needed is guidance. I think that's really critical. And I don't know, I know our industry is so community-focused, everyone's so nice and I think a lot of people are interested in that. And so I hope more people are doing the same thing you're talking about.

Wes Louis:

Right. Yeah, my short ‘The Mighty Grand Piton’ was big for me. I think the biggest shame for me would be if no one from the Caribbean works on it. I mean, voice actors and musicians, all that kind of stuff is not a problem over there, right, but animation is an area where there isn't really a market

The Mighty Grand Piton

Wes Louis:

It would be great to have everyone at a level where we can outsource work, but i've learned making a series isn't straightforward

Mack Garrison:

Right.

Wes Louis:

I think if you can have people out there on our types of productions I think it would be super beneficial. I think the same thing happened with Flying Bark, with Rise Of Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles series. Having that type of project forced them to level up. That show is incredible. Now they’re so good now they can do that stuff by themselves. You know what I mean?

Mack Garrison:

Yeah.

Wes Louis:

So yeah, that kind of actually triggered the idea. So I think me doing it, isn’t about money or anything like that, it's like you said it's about time. It's one thing you talk about and talk about, but then I'm like, "You know what, let's dedicate time to it and make sure it's done. And then let's see what happens at the end of the year." And if at the end of the year where they feel like we've contributed something to them and they've used our resources, and they're able to talk to not just me, but some of the other partners and get some insights on how things are done, And if their work levels up, then I know it's working and I know that we're doing the right thing.

Mack Garrison:

I love it. Well you'll have to give us an update when you come to Raleigh on where some of that stuff is in the process. This was a really great convo. Thanks for hanging out with me for a bit.

Wes Louis:

Nice one, man. Nice to meet you and thanks for taking the time to talk to me as well.

Meet the speakers: Aaron Ray

An interview with Aaron Ray: an animation director and designer with an inclination towards illustrative design and character based work.

Q&A hosted by Mack Garrison & Meryn Hayes.

Read time: 15min

---

Mack :

Hey Aaron, for folks who don't know who you are, a little bit about you and your background and what brought you into motion design as an industry.

Aaron:

So currently I split my time between doing freelance with studios, whether that's art direction, creative direction, or just doing style frames and stuff like that. But I also have a rep for commercial and music video direction, so I'm kind of bouncing back and forth between those things. How I started was early on when I was into skateboarding growing up, just seeing all the graphics and stuff. And this was late '80s and '90s, but specifically the late '80s stuff when I was a little kid, when I first started skateboarding, the graphics were so bold, colorful, gruesome, funny, detailed and illustrative. I had never really seen anything like that.

So I was like, "This is really interesting and I think this might mean I could draw for a living," that kind of thing. I just drew all the time. And then also going back to skateboarding more when I got a little older in high school and college, we were just filming everywhere we went when we were skateboarding. So I got kind of used to using cameras and the idea of editing a video and then probably somewhere out of there, I started to see title design and stuff like that.

I went to college here in Denver and I went to the Art Institute, which is now defunct, and I initially thought I wanted to make live-action movies. But all I had were drawings and my bad skateboard graphics and things like that at the time. I met with an admission person and she said, “maybe you should go into our new computer animation program.” And I said, "Oh, that's cool. That sounds kind of cool." And this was like '98, so this was early, Toy Story had just come out, Pixar stuff was just getting a name and becoming kind of popular, and so the program was really rooted in visual effects for film and 3D character animation.

And so I went into that program and I was pretty unhappy with it because it was very computer based and I kind of learned throughout my time there that I really like more hands-on tactile feeling work. And I liked more design focused work.

It’s Aaron!

Mack:

Well, it's interesting to me. It's like, all right, so you're a kid, you're growing up in the '90s, late '80s, you're loving skateboarding, so it brings you in from the design side of it. And then I'm just presuming here that you started making little random fun skating videos that ultimately brought you into film. Is that right?

Aaron:

Yeah, I bought a camera, a mini DV camera or eight millimeter, and we would just go around filming and editing. I didn't have Final Cut or anything like that at the time. So it was like in-camera editing or eventually we got two tape decks, and I don't know if you've ever done that, but you can run the camera into one tape deck and you're sort of transferring it to another tape deck and a VHS. So you're doing the editing to a tape from tape deck to tape deck.

Frame from the music video Aaron directred for ’Hands/Heart’ by The Raven And The Writing Desk.

Mack:

That's so funny. Are you putting on the classic dad fade where you fade in and fade out at the end in-camera?

Aaron:

Always. Every time.

Mack:

So I imagine the skating stuff, I mean, it's funny how many people I feel like I've talked to that have gotten into this space through skating because really it was kind of pioneers for recording yourself and recording your tricks. And so it got you into that. That always feels very tactile to me. I mean, skating is just rough in and of itself. And the designs on the boards and the decks themselves are really graphic. And so when you get into, it was the Art Institute that you were in Denver, right. And so you get to the VFX, the 3D character animation spawned after Toy Story coming out, which makes a lot of sense because there's this new push and admiration for 3D. But it sounds like you weren't digging it, you weren't really wild about it, but you just kind of pushed through it and felt like, "Well, I just got to get a degree and get out of here."

Aaron:

Yeah, I mean, I got a lot from school though. I learned the tools, I learned After Effects. At the time we were using 3D Studio Max, so I got a good sense of using the tools and understanding 3D. I kind of forgot to mention, growing up, I was really into music, punk music and just independent music in general. And so even before college I was skateboarding and music was a huge part of my life. And when I was in college, it was kind of pre-motion design too. So there wasn't a lot of that. And I think what I was missing is I really loved record covers. I really loved skateboard graphics, I liked filming stuff, but I hadn't really been introduced to motion design yet. And so, I don't know, I think I burnt out and just couldn’t get excited about what I was seeing in school.

In retrospect, I can look back at it now. And the 3D character stuff we see now, I'm like, "Wow, that's so cool." I wish we'd been kind of pushed in that direction versus just the movie VFX and CG stuff.

But music and playing in bands was really a big thing at that point for me. So I wanted to be a designer in the music industry. I wanted to do album covers and stuff like that. So I got this position as a designer for a small record label, for literally no money. I worked there for about three years. But it was a great experience and worth it in the long run, it actually had a big impact on me.

But streaming music started to slowly take over, and you kind of see the writing on the wall that I wasn't going to be able to continue just doing album covers. And I think it was probably around this time that I first saw, you guys remember a studio called Shilo?

Mack:

Out in San Diego or something, right?

Aaron:

They were California and New York City. But they were amazing. I think that's the first time I saw work that I would've considered motion design. There was one piece they did in particular, It was this kind of white cityscape thing. No materials, just white and what do you call it, Ambient Occlusion And the camera's just moving through and it's got this really experimental edit. And there was just this cool hiphop kind of beat that everything was cut to, and there was typography integrated and there were hand drawn doodles popping out everywhere. I was like, "Wow, this is cool." And it was 3D and 2D kind of mixed.

Mack:

That's so neat. I do remember Shilo. In fact, they were an inspiration for me when I was in school. I was like, "Oh man, this place looks amazing. I want to go work here." It does feel like it's a good segway though, from album art into it, right? Because album art seems equally as weird, off the walls, could be a mixed media of a lot of different things.

I'm curious about your take on this, because you worked at that job where you said three years, the first one that they weren't paying you initially and then they're paying you a little bit. And there's a big conversation around the industry even today, right? It's like, "Don't take unpaid internships, don't do work for less than what it costs."

And then at the same time, I hear you say about how much of a big impact that made on you. I mean, I think about some of the work that Dash has done over the years that has opened the doors to other projects. And some of those projects weren't the highest paying gigs, but we said yes to it because they seemed cool. I don't know, just any thoughts on that idea in the space on balancing stuff that you're into versus saying yes to some things?

Frame of Aaron’s work with New Belgium.

Aaron:

I think if there's a benefit to doing something for no money or low money, then I think it's worth it. But I think each person has to weigh those options. For me, I just knew working in music design is what I want to do and this is my foot in the door, so I'm going to do it and I'm going to work hard to do it.

I guess the point is I will do stuff for lower cost if there's a creative benefit or if it will help me learn something new etc.

I’ve had projects before where I’ve thought "I can't believe I'm doing this for this much for the budget, but I think I'm just going to, I'm trying to ignore that and just keep pushing through it because I think the end product's going to be cool." But again I think you have to weigh the pros and cons of each situation because just because you have a cool end product, that doesn't always mean more work or anything though right?

Mack:

I think you made a really good point, Aaron, that you have to judge it against what you're interested in, what you want to do. And something for someone might be too low, but for others it might be the right fit, because I've heard a little adage as well, it's like don't ever undercharge. But we get projects sometimes that look really cool. We want to say yes to it, but they have a third of the budget that we would normally take on. But if it looks cool, it's like, let's do it and let's make it happen. I think it's also a big difference though, in what you're out there to try to do. And I think one of the reasons I love the motion design industry so much is it's really full of passionate creatives.

I think at the end of the day, there is still this desire to make cool badass work. And not all the time some of these groups out there need a helping hand. And if you can do it creatively, I think that's great. So I think ultimately it just kind of depends on everybody kind of where they are in their life, what they want to do.

So, sorry, I didn't mean to hijack the story there for a bit, but it was really interesting. So you leave the record design stuff, you kind of see the writing on the wall, that might not be a long term endeavor, and you had just discovered (Shilo) and this amazing work they were doing the kind of mixed media stuff. And so at that point, you really didn't know too much about motion graphics or motion design itself as a field, correct?

Aaron:

Yeah, not a lot. I mean, maybe motion graphics was a term at that point, but I don't think I was too familiar with it. I guess around that time I was approached by somebody who knew this company that was looking for an art director. And so I interviewed there and I moved from the record label and I got a job at this other place and they were a parent company for a bunch of skateboard and youth lifestyle kind of brands within it. And so I was an art director there where I did snowboard graphics and apparel graphics. I did packaging for footwear and box design and stuff.

And that was also a really cool stepping stone I think for me, because again, I'm learning more about the print design stuff still, but it started to get bigger than just doing record packaging. I went to China to do press checks on snowboard graphics, I art directed national Ad campaigns. So I just learned I think my whole experience from college up through this job was just learning different things and they're all really interesting and fun. And maybe, I don't think I was thinking too much about the future really at this point. I was just kind of going along for the ride and everything was interesting. I was learning new stuff every day. But during this job we started creating more video content and stuff. And then I started getting back into using AfterEffects and then motion design. This is actually the period when I first noticed Shilo, but then a bunch of other motion design studios were kind of popping up.

So yeah, I started doing more After Effects stuff and kind of got back into it. And then during that time is when I, actually taking a step back, at the record label is where met one of the partners of my future company Legwork. Actually two of my partners. But I went to this other job and they went their own way and we kind of parted careers for a bit, but it was during this new job when we started talking again, and then we started talking about maybe starting a company.

Mack:

Oh, nice. Were you guys doing moonlighting on side projects together or was it always like, "We'd like to do that," and maybe this company Legwork, what it ended up becoming is how you could do that?

Aaron:

We probably spent six months to a year just planning it out, designing our logos and crafting our “brand”. We all kept our jobs while we planned it. We designed the initial Legwork logo and then we built our first website. We quit our jobs before we launched the website, And I don't know if we were doing any big projects at the time, I think we went cold turkey and quit our jobs and went right into Legwork. And for me it wasn't that big of a deal because I still wasn't making that much money, But my two partners left better paying jobs to start Legwork, so they had more at stake.

Mack:

You're like, "I'm already broke. Why not just keep doing this?"

Aaron:

I wasn't worried at all. So yeah, I kind of feel bad about that for them!

Frame for Aaron’s “Kiss my airs” campaign for Nike Toronto’s Air Max Day to celebrate 30 Years of Air Max .

Meryn:

Do you feel like y'all had a certain dynamic? To start a business with someone that takes a lot on both sides. Do you feel there was, I mean obviously y'all thought about it because there was six months leading up to it. Was there a lot of thought in terms of what Legwork would become in those early days? Or was it just like, "Let's jump and we'll see where we land?"

Aaron:

Yeah, that's a good question. I think I was idealistic about what it would become or what we wanted it to be. And I learned later, maybe nine years later, that if I was to start a business again, there are definitely things that maybe should have been different. But yeah I think the three of us had a good dynamic. One of the partners I was pretty good friends with because I worked with him probably for a year or so at the record label, and we all kind of ran in the same circles and had a lot of the same friends. The other one I also met at the record label, but he was just a freelance website designer that would do stuff for the record label so I didn't know him as well. But all of us came from the local music scene. And so we weren't the best of friends, but I think we were good enough friends and trusted each other enough to be comfortable with it.

But again, I think we were not thinking that far ahead. I didn't think, "Oh, what happens if you get in a fight with one of your business partners or something bad happens?" In my mind I was just thinking It was going to be a small studio where we had cool screen printed posters on the wall. I was just thinking more about what it was, where I was going to be sitting during the day. Being inspired by all my design books around me and stuff. I didn't really think about the business that much. I just thought we were going to create cool work all the time.

Mack:

Oh my gosh, that's so funny. I did the exact same thing, Aaron, when Cory and I started Dash, it was like, "Oh man, it'll be so rad. We can just hang out all day. We can make cool stuff."

We didn't talk about the fact that we'd be nitpicking each other's emails on how we write to clients. I mean, it’s just dumb shit like that the first year of any studio as you're working through the business stuff has got to be honestly some of the toughest.

Aaron:

Yeah. Was it just you two at first for a while?

Mack:

It was, we just had the two of us, so there was no third party to make a decision, although I guess Meryn kind of came in and is kind of making some decisions for us now, which has helped. Thank you, Meryn :)

Aaron:

Yeah. Well, so the three partners' situation was what it was and it was pretty good. And I think the three of us actually made sense because I was kind of coming from video and animation and illustration and also print design. But then the other partner was a website designer, and so he knew the website design and development world. And then the other partner had a business degree and he was like at the record label, he kind of managed the books and planned tours that kind of stuff. So he just kind of had more of the business mind. So we're like "Oh, this makes sense." But the crazy thing is one year into that structure, I think it was 2009, we brought on three additional partners.

Mack:

What was the impetus for that? Just cool people that you wanted to bring on?

Aaron:

We needed to fill out what we were doing with additional skill sets. One of our friends was a really good developer, so we brought him on and then we didn't really have a sales person, so we brought on this other guy to run sales. And then we needed another developer at the time that did a different type of development. So we had a front end developer and a back end developer.

“If This Then Domino’s” is a website that uses IFTTT technology that allows customers to automatically order Domino’s pizza every time a particular situation occurs.

Mack Garrison: Interesting. So the early days, you guys, what's really interesting to me is that even though it was kind of like you didn't have a long term plan, you did have a lot of really talented people and even as a small entity, you kind of had these different divisions of the company where kind of people were responsible for. And so how would it go? Did you guys develop processes to work together? Would each person go do their thing and bring information back to the table? Sales guy's like, "All right, I got us a project. Who wants to handle it?"

Aaron: When I think back on it, I was the only one who wasn't really from the website world. And so I think in a lot of ways I was just sitting there kind of doing my own thing and if something came up where we needed to do an animation or an illustration, that would be what I would do. I also was handling a lot of the company branding stuff, so I was just working on the visual side of the company and logos and that kind of stuff. But yes that’s essentially how it worked, but really the 6 of us each made up one part of what a full team on a project would be - so in those days we all kind of worked together on each project rather than one person doing a project and another person on a different project.

Mack:

Interesting. So the early days, everyone has their job, their niche, they bring their experience they have to the table. Were a lot of your clients in the books initially? Was it more kind of in the music space or that same kind of stuff that you had talked about? You were in the kind of album artwork, there was skate stuff, the sort of punk side of things. Was that still a lot of the work y'all were doing in the early days?

Aaron:

Yeah, kind of. So I left my job, the place was called Collective, but I left that job on really good terms. So I gave them two months' notice. I said, "I'm quitting, I'm going to start my own company." And they were super cool and supportive and they gave us work. They had stuff to do that they couldn't really do internally anyway, so they just gave that to us.

One of the brands was this old, I’m sure you've heard of Airwalk. They used to be a legit skateboard brand in the '80s and early ‘90s, but then they turned into kind of an “affordable” mainstream brand, So they brought us on for the brand relaunch website which was a really progressive website at the time. That was one thing about Legwork and Matt Wiggins, who was our developer/partner, he's like this genius developer. Okay, sorry, side note: I'm jumping back again here because this is right when the first iPhone came out…

And the iPhone killed Flash. So Matt, and all these guys came from the Flash development world and the iPhone basically didn't allow Flash, so it kind of killed, developers had to switch gears and start using HTML 5.

And so Matt was such a genius developer that he started figuring out how to do HTML 5 websites that felt like Flash. So we did the first Airwalk projects. And it was just really cool and experimental, we were winning awards for it, and then we also won an award for our own website.

I don't think awards really matter so much anymore, but maybe they do more so in the web world. I'm not even sure these days, but back then, winning those awards, we won at SXSW for our website and then the Airwalk site won maybe a Webby or FWA I think. And that actually got us quick name recognition in that world. So we're definitely known as a web company initially and I struggled a bit because I was from the animation and design side. And it took us a long time, I think to even be known as doing animation. That was kind of an interesting journey for me personally.

Mack:

Well, I can imagine, because as anyone knows who's run the studio, there's ebbs and flows on different types of work. So you know, you may find that you're a particular type of designer, you're getting a lot of type of work coming in, but then there's a pivot and then you're kind of like, "All right, how can I help?" And you're in this kind of space to give me more work, why everyone else is overloaded. And that's going to be a hard thing to kind of navigate. So when you guys, you won, so really the growth came from winning some of these awards, getting the recognition with them, landing some other jobs and then landing those bigger jobs got you more recognition and it kind of became more of a snowball effect on how stuff came in. Is that more or less how the growth happened?

Aaron:

Yeah, I think winning the SXSW award for our own website, I think within a year we had a rep for the studio, like an LA based rep. And so they immediately introduced us to bigger agencies. And then we started doing a lot of work just with bigger agencies, almost right off the bat.

Mack:

That's really fun. Well, especially, I know there's a lot of folks out there who talk about whether they want to be repped or is that a good thing or a bad thing. It sounds like for you all, that was a real big key in moving forward and taking on some bigger projects was the award and then getting representation. Do you think that's accurate?

Aaron:

Yeah, for sure. I think times are, I know it wasn't that long ago, but I think times were different in the industry then too though.

I think the industry was less saturated with small and mid-size companies back then too. So I think we were a bit of an anomaly because we did interactive and animation. So that was definitely unique for the time. I even think now it's a little unique and I feel like if I do ever start another studio, I would probably do that again.

Mack:

I think being, at least from my perspective, is a little bit shifted cause we are a general studio. And so I like the idea, I mean, we're still in the lens of just animation or live action, but we still, we're not just 2D, we do 3D, we do a bunch of things.

I think variety is important, honestly, I think what keeps animators on their toes, you talk about your partners having to learn like HTML 5, kind of pivoting completely and then it discovers a new way of doing things. I think that's how studios evolve and last is you have to mix it up a little bit

Aaron:

Yeah, I think you're totally right. Having those two different disciplines when we were slow and on one side we could make up for it on the other side of the company. But in terms of the motion stuff, it was a gradual growth. And we got bigger and bigger projects on that side. And then I think by the end, it's interesting, I talked to a lot of people, some people knew us only as an animation studio then.

Mack:

Huh. Interesting. So, I don't want to spoil anything from your talk that could be coming up.

Aaron:

I think I've already spoiled half of it.

Mack:

Well good. Well, this will just be an accent then to what's coming up. So Legwork continues to grow. You guys talked about the beginning that you really didn't have any kind of a long term plan. It was just like, "Oh, we'll do this. This is good. Oh we'll do six partners, this seems good," right? And you grow a little bit. Did people kind of come in and out for a bit at Legwork? Did some of those partners stay? Was it kind of fluid where folks were coming in and out of the studio for a bit?

Aaron:

In terms of partners, we were pretty much all there until 2016. Having six partners sounds insane to me now, but we did a really good job of working together for that amount of time, which is a pretty long time for six people to stay friends and business partners.

In the beginning we didn't really have any employees. We had a couple interns, maybe a year or two years in, they came on And our first intern became an employee and was with us for 8 or 9 years!

And it's funny, I think one of our selling points early on, and this is no offense to producers because I fully changed how I think about this over the years, but my partners were like, "We don't need producers, we're a small tight-knit team. We're all pretty senior level at this point and we can just do the work. We can talk directly to clients." And I actually think a lot of our clients liked that. And I think that was a bit of a selling point for us for a while. But as we got bigger and bigger, we brought on bigger and bigger projects we brought on producers. And I would never do that again, I value producers so much now. It's insane.

Mack:

Well as soon as you spend 75% of your day writing emails instead of working, you're like, "Wait a minute. What happened here?

Meryn:

And a level of objectiveness that's just like, it's really hard to separate yourself from the art or what you're making and that layer from the client to you, a little bit of protection from yourself.

Aaron:

Definitely. Even now, just working as an independent, I have the producer at my rep company and he does most of the corresponding work. We'll do meetings, creative meetings and stuff like that. But when I do a check-in, I'm like "Here's my deck, here's my stuff for the day" and he’ll send it over. Often when a producer is the middle-person, they're just passing an email over and then getting the feedback. And sometimes that can get muddy if the producer doesn't communicate it correctly. But it's been great Rob the EP. And I actually really like that process because I can stay kind of focused on just doing my work.

Mack:

Well, there's a lot more to talk about here, Aaron, but I think it leaves a lot for what's to come, the presentation. And I know Meryn and I both really enjoyed chatting with you today and getting to know a little bit of background. I'm super excited to be hanging at the Bash this year.

Aaron:

Awesome. Cool. Well, thank you both very much. Looking forward to meeting in person and I’ll talk to you soon.

Meryn:

Awesome. Thanks, Aaron.