Q&A with Dash Bash Speaker, Joy Tien
Meryn Hayes:
So I will go ahead and jump into it. I have Joy Tien here with me today. She is a Senior CG Generalist at BUCK who specializes in look development, lighting, and animated commercials. Joy’s style is expressive through playful characters, sophisticated materials, and colorful lighting. She also works closely with the creative technology team at BUCK to help bridge the gap between CG and Tech. She's worked with clients such as Apple, MailChimp, Sherwin-Williams, Nike, and Coca-Cola. Welcome, Joy!
Joy Tien:
Hello. Thank you for having me!
Meryn Hayes:
So that was a little bit of an introduction into who you are, but how about you tell me how you first got into motion design.
Joy Tien:
I initially studied fine art back in Taiwan and wanted to do more computer graphic animation when I graduated from school. There were no jobs as a fine artist unless you had rich parents. So, I felt I needed to apply somewhere within the industry where I could find both money while still doing what I love to do. I talked to my parents and figured out I could give it a shot by coming to the States to study. I went to the School of Visual Arts in New York as a computer arts major for my master’s.
After two years, I was looking around and applying for internships. I tried a few times at BUCK and didn't get in. I didn't know anyone so I gave up and flew to San Francisco where I started my first freelance job for Zoosk, the old dating app that no one uses now. So, that was my first project which actually led me to working at BUCK as an intern after a year. Then I flew back again from San Francisco to New York, it's kind of funny.
Joy Tien:
My biggest regret is that I threw away my mom's rice cooker when I was in New York. I wish I had carried it with me, but anyway, that’s how it started.
Meryn Hayes:
That's great. And I think it is validating for a lot of people listening or reading this that you applied to BUCK many times. Was that discouraging, or were you just really determined? What led you to keep applying over and over again?
Joy Tien:
It was quite difficult. I think of it as fishing. The more times you throw the net, the more opportunities to get a fish.
When I was a student, it was hard being international because I needed a sponsor. It's difficult to get a studio to even say yes in the beginning. I had a Google Sheet. I’d write down all the studios I applied to and then I would write out all the information, for example, what date I applied. Every couple of months I would give them an update, “hey, I finished this commercial or this project and I'm free again to freelance or intern and am open to any opportunities.”
Joy Tien:
At BUCK, they keep everyone's information on a roster. It's like a freelance list of potential talent so when there’s an open opportunity, they contact someone on the list. It's all about timing. You have to be determined to keep applying, but not in a crazy way.
Meryn Hayes:
That's so true and I feel like it's something that can be hard for people, like students who are just getting into the field or people that make the leap to freelance for the first time. They wonder how to find clients and how to get consistent work, but it does come down to the right opportunity at the right time. To your point, being determined and not letting people's silence get to you. You just need to keep applying yourself, and not to the point where you're driving people crazy, but you're showing your commitment to it, which is like a full-time job. I feel like if you're freelancing, you're essentially your own producer. You're trying to make contacts with people and work on projects. Is that something that you struggled with or did it come naturally to you?
Joy Tien:
I managed a few projects at school. We had to make a catalog for classmates going after finance degrees. It was an opportunity for us to show studios or potential sponsors that we were actual artists. I was a little more opinionated and particular, so I thank God people believed in what I wanted to do.
They let me lead the team, and I feel I learned management skills from that project. Also, from my parents, the way they do and manage things. I started living by myself here in the States. Doing that, you really need to stay on top of things. If you needed to get a job, you needed to be on top of your scheduling and find a strategic way to keep your presence within the market. It takes time to learn. And one thing I noticed was the cultural differences. In Asia, I don't think I should speak for other countries, but at least for Taiwan, the culture is more submissive.
Joy Tien:
People don't speak out when it comes to promotions or when it comes to presenting themselves. They are more passive. You’re told to listen to the authorities and leadership, but here you have to speak louder for people to hear you and to show people that, “Hey, I'm also a shooting star and I've been shining. I'm willing to share my glow with you if you want to include me.” So I'm learning how people present themselves here as well and how I fit into that.
Meryn Hayes:
That's interesting. I feel like something that a lot of people, especially coming from different cultures or different countries, trying to assimilate to the way that we do things here can be difficult. You're used to a more passive approach instead of waving your hands like, “look at me, look at my work,” which can be really hard for some people to do. It’s an interesting distinction. Are there other things that you noticed when going to school in Taiwan versus school in New York? Was art school inherently different in either place or were there similarities across both?
Joy Tien:
Yeah, great question. They’re very different, and it's not just the culture. It's very competitive here. I remember at SVA, it's like I was competing with everyone around me to get a job. It’s sad because, in the end, it's the same, small industry. There were a few times when I tried to ask for resources from classmates, but not everyone is willing to share even when you’re working on the same thesis.
I found it hard that people wanted to keep their specific contacts to themselves to get headway into a big studio. It took some time to get used to it, but back in Asia, I noticed that students don't usually ask questions. It depends on the generation, but overall it's quieter. People don't want to show their differences, it wasn’t that competitive. College life, in general, is more chill.
Meryn Hayes:
That's interesting. One thing I was thinking about, I went to school for photography, so similar to art school. It was pretty competitive. The animation and motion design community is, as you said, really small. Something that I've learned in the short time that I've been in it is how willing people are to help each other which is surprising in a really good way. Most art schools are so competitive. You imagine students are all essentially competing with each other, right? Studios and freelancers are all working towards doing the same thing, but there's still this sense of community and engagement with each other that I just don't think I've seen in other industries. It's really special.
Joy Tien:
Pixar has a round table. I think I read this from Creativity, Inc. If I remember correctly, they have a round table where everyone sits and shares ideas for storyboarding. I think that's great. Every industry should do this, good ideas come from everywhere. You're going to bring different cultures and backgrounds into the mix. That's how you make a unique team. You have more people troubleshooting in different ways that you may not have thought of. So, I think it's great that the Dash Bash is willing to do this festival. Sharing knowledge and everyone's passions. It’s awesome.
Meryn Hayes:
One of the reasons why we wanted to put on the Dash Bash was because of the value that dash gained in the early days when we were figuring out how to run a studio. There were so many other studio heads who lent an ear or gave advice to our co-founders, Mack and Cory. Being able to give back to that community is something that we're excited to do.
So, you started at BUCK. You were an intern. What led to you being involved in the creative technology team? Can you talk a little bit about some of the goals? I love the team’s ethos of “bridging the gap between CG and tech, the art and design with the technology.” Can you talk a little more about that?
Joy Tien:
Yeah! Nowadays, not to say anything negative, but my company is predominantly white and male within leadership. Creative tech is something that not many people are willing to explore. It’s very tactical-oriented, not art-oriented. Also, it is pretty low poly a lot of time. Does that make sense?
Sorry if I use nerdy terms. It means that the model’s less polished if you compare it to the high-end gaming like, for example, Rockstar or Blizzard. That's the pinnacle of the gaming industry, but it takes a lot of time for other studios. The cases we get are mostly mobile games and AR, kind of like Pokemon Go. More lower-end because everyone is trying to get on this trend of doing creative tech for AR and VR.
Joy Tien:
People also are used to seeing high-end commercials from BUCK and the specific look that we create. Creative Tech is something BUCK wants to explore, which is why this opportunity came to me. I had to take a leap of faith and try it out. It turned out that I actually quite liked it. A lot of the time, the animation teams here are so big that you’re really just one little school executing ideas for your creative teams and leadership. But when it comes to creative tech, I get to contribute my creativity. The projects we’ve gotten for creative tech have been pretty experimental. It's exciting and scary but ultimately rewarding when it works out.
Meryn Hayes:
Totally. I think you're going to enjoy talking with one of our other speakers, Kaye Vassey. She works at Epic Games and worked on Fortnite when it was just a tiny project. You two may have a lot in common.
One thing that really struck me was how being on this team was almost like going back to your fine art school days. How funny and full circle is it that that's where you started and some of that past mentality is being put to use.
Joy Tien:
I’m lucky to be trusted by my team and leaders. They entrusted me with the task of bridging CG and CT and I'm trying to fulfill that goal, but I also find it quite fun to be the local pioneer playing out things with my team and clients. That's really rewarding.
I'm a big fan of immersive tech. I don't know if you know this Japanese team called TeamLab? They specialize in immersive tech. Everything is projected in a room for you to immerse yourself in. You go into this environment and immediately feel like you are transported to a different dimension. Maybe not that dramatic, but to me, that’s what it feels like. I always wanted to be part of the trend, so I'm happy that BUCK is starting to figure it out with our creative team.
Meryn Hayes:
Oh, that's great. As you were describing it, I was imagining a traveling exhibit we have here. The Immersive Van Gogh Exhibition...that's what this reminds me of. Being inside of the art.
Meryn Hayes:
So, how big is your team?
Joy Tien:
It varies from project to project, to be honest. The New York CG team has a tech project going on right now that has around seven to ten artists.
Meryn Hayes:
What advice would you give to someone who has never heard of this Creative Technology team but is interested in pursuing it? Whether it's research to get into or programs to start. Is there any advice you'd give to someone interested in bridging this gap?
Joy Tien:
It's funny you asked as I’m also trying to figure it out. It depends on their skill set. If I'm an artist for CG, the best way is to go to--I forget the name--coders gather together...Hackathon! Doing things like that. Try to find collaborative opportunities or even style your own projects. Find other artists to collaborate with because it's beneficial for both sides; merging tech minds and creative minds together.
On the other hand, there are some who go at it alone, which is amazing too. So, there’s no set stepping stone or determined way to go about it. It's more of figuring it out, which can be difficult. I will say, we are lucky to have production; the producer, coordinators, etc. The whole team is working on bridging this relationship between clients and big tech companies. We were fortunate to pitch and develop ideas with them.
Meryn Hayes:
And how does it feel like pitching them ideas that have never been done before? There's a certain amount of trust. How do you feel you get your clients to take that leap of faith? Especially in the tech space, it can be really expensive and take a long time, so you're asking a lot of your clients to trust that you're going to deliver something never tried before. How do you handle that?
Joy Tien:
I can’t speak from the producer’s viewpoint, but I feel they do a great job of persuading the clients, or showing enough credentials, that we have the ability to do the project. There are some things worked out as we go. Most of the tech projects--I’ve only done two, so humbly speaking--are a lot of ‘build as you go’.
Meryn Hayes:
I’m sure it helps if you already have a relationship at the time. Having worked together before, setting that groundwork for trust. It can be hard for a lot of clients if they can't see something tangibly to know you’ve delivered, which I totally understand.
Joy Tien:
It’s always good to have a mood board and motion tests. Usually, we’ll use them to show what we can potentially accomplish, almost like a prototype. I’ve noticed that--I don't want backslash from agencies--but they will do free pitches with many different studios and only pick one at the end. A lot of the time, the pitch isn't tailored. It could be a bad cycle because every studio is trying to get that project, so they will lowball.
In the end, artists are the ones that suffer. If lowballed, these creatives are going to be working overtime. I want to bring awareness to the fact that good art takes time. There's no other way to make it look good unless you have other creative solutions, which are hard to pitch to clients. The producer is usually the middle person that helps us sell the idea.
Meryn Hayes:
And that's interesting, thinking that if a studio were to lowball a pitch, everybody suffers. That's something that comes with the territory of knowing your worth, especially as a freelancer. People talking about money and salaries, it can be a taboo subject and hard to talk about. However, I think the more that we say, “Hey, your day rate's kind of low, you can be charging more,” that's just going to elevate the whole industry. It's important that people know their value.
Joy Tien:
It's hard. Panimation, I don't know if you're following this group, but when one of the artists took over, it was amazing. She surveyed everyone on the story that you could respond to. She asked different people and artists from different companies what their day rate was, along with other things. This whole industry is tied to a capitalist system. It’s one reason why animation is more popular, or more developed, within the U.S.; commercialism, Hollywood, that industry is all here. So I think people here have more leeway to ask for more, but in Asia, at least where I come from, there's no way you can compare the two. It's a different environment.
Meryn Hayes:
What advice would you give to someone who's coming to the U.S and maybe doesn't know what to charge or some of the business strategies? The business side of animation and motion is hard enough, even if you're originally from here. You're not taught business in art school, right? So it must be even harder for someone who's not from this country who isn't immersed already in the industry.
Joy Tien:
It depends on the circumstances. If you are an established freelancer in your hometown or country and you can speak English, you only have to talk to people. Go to conferences. Establish connections. Don't be shy, try to reach out to people if you can on LinkedIn, Facebook, or Twitter. People enjoy talking about their salaries. There are channels for that. Join conferences like the Dash Bash and have open conversations with people. See how you can collaborate with someone other than yourself.
Meryn Hayes:
That's great. Now, tell us about the diversity, equity, and inclusion committee at BUCK. How did that come to be?
Joy Tien:
I was part of the committee when the pandemic hit, though I took a break to focus on Creative Tech. It was too much to do both. BUCK has been trying to bring this awareness about how we can bring equality to our industry. I think Asians and white creatives outnumber people of color within our industry. I’ve noticed those are the demographics that BUCK mostly consists of as well. So, we're trying to bring more voices from other HBCU and underprivileged schools. That was why we started this committee, along with the Employment Resource Group to help support LGBTQ+ individuals.
Our team is learning as we go, and we’re trying to bring more transparency from the top down. We have begun to schedule monthly occasions where we invite minority individuals to come to speak at BUCK and share their processes. We invited Peter Ramsey who directed Spider-Verse, and recently we had author, Grace Cho, who wrote a book called Tastes Like War. It focused on how Korean meals and memories of the mother country live on within the States. BUCK is focusing on bringing more outside voices to us and learning more about how we can make it a place where there's equality, transparency, and fairness.
Meryn Hayes:
BUCK is such a leader in the industry. So it’s encouraging and sets both tone and standards to show others how important it is. You all are putting so many resources into it, and the rest of the industry should follow suit. One thing that you mentioned is how dependent the industry is on getting an education. Art school is very expensive and cost-prohibitive. This is especially so for historically black colleges. It’s important to get access to sponsored programs or provide equipment to underserved communities so that art and animation can be available to more people. There needs to be a concentrated effort on early education for animation, otherwise, we're not going to have a diverse group of hires.
Joy Tien:
It's a group effort. Every school has a small hierarchy, a duplication of our actual society continued by those who established it. So, it's difficult. Something I think would be helpful is hiring Paradigm. They’re a company that helps to arrange internal surveys for employees regarding race and thoughts on a company’s inclusivity. You have the data, but it’s not the solution.
Meryn Hayes:
We're stacked against fighting systemic racism over hundreds of years. There's not going to be an easy answer. It involves being vulnerable and admitting that you don't have all the answers, but you're still willing to try and work together, as you said. Commitment to each other is what's going to help get us there.
Joy Tien:
There’s one thing people can do when it comes to hiring people. Acknowledge unconscious bias. Spend a little more energy and look outside of your own circle and comfort zone. Bias training can really help leadership learn more about how and why they make hiring decisions.
Meryn Hayes:
On a similar note, I was watching a panel you did right before the pandemic started for Diversetoons. There was a question someone asked about finding your voice, which is similar to what we were talking about earlier. To get noticed in the industry you have to raise your hand and be loud. For a lot of women or people of color, it's difficult to stand up and be the loudest person in a room. That's something that I struggle with. How do you feel you've been able to find your voice in an environment as large and talented as BUCK’s?
Joy Tien:
I'm still trying to figure that out. I feel I’ve found that now within Creative Tech, but I think women need to be helping other women. I have seen people get unvoiced by the same gender. It's difficult. I don't understand it.
Establishing that first impression is important. When you learn to speak up, people will learn to wait for you to contribute your feedback. I don't want to exclude introverted people, because not everyone is comfortable speaking up. In those cases, if you're a leader, the best thing to do is to open your channel and embrace different voices from different devices. It’s important to create an inclusive environment that everyone feels safe voicing their opinions in.
Meryn Hayes:
I love that. I've talked with people before about something similar; the idea of meeting people where they are. I'm on the introverted extrovert line. I can be both, so my idea of comfortability is way different from somebody who's much more introverted. Doing my part to meet them where they are if they're not super comfortable speaking out is really good advice.
Joy Tien:
Going back to when you were asking about people who want to work with BUCK. I’m not sure if you want to talk about social media, but that's one thing I'm struggling with. I don't know how these talented people get to 10K followers. It's a full-time job.
Meryn Hayes:
That's something that I've heard a lot of people in the industry talk about, especially within freelance work. You are your own producer and your own creative director, but on top of that, being your own social media manager because you're having to market yourself. A lot of people aren’t able to keep up.
Joy Tien:
I have respect for all of the industry’s freelancers. I don't know how they do it.
It’s all about scheduling periodically. I originally had the mindset of only posting final projects, but it’s honestly about frequency. The more you post, the more attention you gain.
Meryn Hayes:
What you said about posting work that's in progress, I think it's good for people's mental health. For people to see in-progress projects from their favorite artists and not just the shiny final project, it allows people to see the process. Everybody makes mistakes. Seeing behind the curtain helps us all acknowledge that we don't have to be perfect on social media all the time.
Joy Tien:
In the end, we’re all human. All trying to spark before we transcend to the universe.
Meryn Hayes:
There’s so much I want to talk about regarding the future of art and technology, your work at BUCK, everything really. As a final question, what is something that you plan on talking about at Dash Bash? Can you give us a sneak peek into your presentation?
Joy Tien:
My working title is ”Hide and Seek with Creativity.” I want to talk about how to reignite and keep the passion for creation as a seasoned artist. Someone who may have been in the industry for a while.
Everyday life is full of inspiration, but you can become jaded with your routine; when you're tired of your responsibilities as a parent, as a partner, as a caretaker, or working professional, how do you take a break and find that passion again?
Meryn Hayes:
That's valuable for a few reasons. Over the last 18 months, people have been feeling the monotony of everyday life. It can be draining. Finding that passion and what makes you tick creatively, that’s really helpful. I also think a lot of people within our industry have the ultimate goal of getting into BUCK, right? It would be reassuring for people to see that even you at BUCK, feel the monotony of the day-to-day. Even though you're at THE dream job, you still have to make the effort to ignite the spark to keep your passions satisfied.
Well, I just wanted to thank you so much for chatting with me. We're really excited to meet you in person!
Joy Tien:
Yeah, thank you so much for having me!