Takeover Tuesday with Tom Van Deusen
An interview with Tom Van Deusen an animator and visual designer living in New York City.
Interviewer: Matea Losenegger
Read time: 5min
Matea:
Hey Tom! Thanks for lending your time. Can you please tell us a little about yourself?
Tom:
Thank you! I'm a visual designer and animator based out of New York City. I like to write and draw comics too. I have a cat named Spooky. I'm currently a Senior Motion Designer at a large media company. My favorite color is #CD9704..
Matea:
What is your background and how did you wind up in the motion design world?
Tom:
I grew up loving to write and draw, glued to the television during the golden age of deranged, socially irresponsible cartoons of the mid-90s. My mom was an art teacher and was fully encouraging of all my creative pursuits. I'll never forgive her. I earned a BFA in 2008 and entered the workforce fabulously ill-suited for a global recession.
Over the subsequent 11 years I worked a lot of interesting jobs, from Network Control Center Technician to Financial Operations Analyst. Very interesting. At night I did freelance illustration and wrote hundreds of pages of comics. I have some books that got published that are really screwing up my SEO.
Anyhoo, at the age of 33 I went back to school for graphic design at the advice of several designer friends who sensed how thoroughly miserable I was. There's a great program they had attended called the Seattle Creative Academy. I learned visual design, UX/UI, packaging and a bit of motion.
I had enough motion footage by graduation to put together a reel. I applied to oodles of jobs and got an offer for a visual design job and a motion design job the same week. It was then that I made the difficult decision to take the one that paid a lot better.
It’s Tom!
Matea:
Do you still use traditional mediums, and do you think it's important for digital artists to flex those more 'tactile' muscles?
Tom:
I was a bit of a luddite in my art-making before going back to school. I drew my comics with a dip pen and Rapidograph. I poo-pooed those who drew on digital tablets, knowing that I was making something physical that will be celebrated by future generations.
Now I'm drawing mostly digitally, and there will be less stuff for my grandchildren to throw into a landfill. I still draw on paper sometimes, but usually just sketches or life drawing. I feel very good about myself when I tap the paper with two fingers to undo before I realize I actually need to use my eraser. My goal is to have my life's work be inaccessible when I stop paying for Creative Cloud.
Matea:
Congratulations on cooking up a spicy new reel! It's a process many of us dread, but yours turned out great. What would you say goes into creating a compelling one?
Tom:
Thank you very much! I've made a lot of stuff over the past years and it was difficult to pare it down and objectively look at it. To make a good reel I'd say takes watching YouTube videos on how to make a good reel. It was also extremely helpful to get feedback from a lot of other, talented motion designers such as yourself. It's hard to tell what's garbage when everything is your precious baby. Sometimes your precious baby is garbage.
Check out Tom’s new reel!
Matea:
It was a really cool idea to incorporate footage of NYC in the opening and close. Has living in the city affected your work at all?
Tom:
Thanks! I moved here from Seattle about a year ago to be closer to family and because my job is in Manhattan. I wanted to incorporate some real-life video footage in addition to my animation, and filmed some stuff on my phone. Because I'm in NYC, those shots are footage of NYC.
As far as influence, I love drawing dense urban areas, and there's a lot of that here. I'd love to find a screen printing co-op in the city to print some of those drawings, so if anyone knows of one in the city please let me know!
Matea:
You have such a playful yet striking illustration style. How would you describe your creative voice and what was the process in developing it?
Tom:
That's very kind. I'm definitely a product of alternative comics. That was the "scene" I was in for a very long time. Over the years I simplified my drawings, replacing fussy cross-hatching with flat colors. I also love children's book illustration. Over the years I've been lucky enough to know a lot of talented artists and illustrators, and I'm sure I'm cribbing some of their styles. Or let's just call it osmosis, for legal reasons.
Frame from “Digital Exclusives.”
Matea:
In a similar vein, where do you find inspiration?
Tom:
I hate to say the internet, but nowadays there's such easy access to amazing artwork on the internet that I have to say the internet. I hated saying that. I've also gone to a lot of incredible museums and gallery shows in the city, and it's impossible to not be inspired by those. And usually some crazy idea will pop into my head that's funny to me, and it will make me laugh aloud in public. Not sure how or why that happens, but I wish it would stop.
Matea:
If budget and time weren't constraints, what would be your dream project to work on?
Tom:
I'd love to make an animated short based on the comic that I'm working on. It's currently about a duck and an alligator, but will soon include a snake, a mouse and a giraffe. I have a lot written for it but can barely find the time to draw it into a comic. I'm currently drip-feeding it onto my Instagram. The good news is that it's zero budget and nobody cares how long it takes me.
Matea:
Do you have any wisdom for aspiring creatives and what do you wish you had known when you first started out?
Tom:
You have to live a life to do anything creative. Don't fret if you think everyone else has their nose down at their Cintiq while you're drinking White Claws on the beach. You can't make art in a vacuum, and life's short. Enjoy it.
One of the scene’s from Tom’s recent comic.
Matea:
Do you have any upcoming projects you're excited to share with the world?
Tom:
I'm actually very excited by that comic I'm working on, even though my productivity doesn't always match that excitement. I'm having fun drawing it, and since it's a personal project that's the important part.
Interview with Dash Bash Speaker, Kaye Vassey
From films to comic strips to video games, Kaye Vassey has done it all.
Cory Livengood, dash’s Co-Founder and Creative Director, sat down with Kaye to discuss both her professional and personal journey.
Q&A with Kaye Vassey
Read time: 15 min
“it was lightning in a bottle. I knew that it was a great game. I knew that the art was cool and that the style was awesome, it just needed to find the audience. (fortnite)”
Cory Livengood:
I have Kaye Vassey here with me today. She is a twenty-one-year veteran of the feature animation, games, and comics industries, where she has worked on film franchises such as Shrek, Madagascar, and the How to Train Your Dragon series. Currently, she is a Lead Technical Animator at Epic Games and was an artistic leader on the hugely successful game, Fortnite.
Cory Livengood:
I think the best place to start, Kaye, is by just telling us a little about yourself, and how you got into the animation industry.
Kaye Vassey:
Sure.
Cory Livengood:
Eventually leading to Epic Games.
Kaye Vassey:
I decided when I was around 11 or 12 years old that I wanted to either be...Well, I wanted to do three things. I wanted to do animation, and that was based on a trip to Disney World. At the time they were taking retired animators who had worked for the studio, they put them outside of one of the art stores in Main Street, USA as soon as you enter the park. I had stopped at this guy's table, and he drew for me. I found out he was an animator on Lady and the Tramp. I was like, "Oh, my God, wait, you can do art and have it be alive. That's crazy." From that point on, I want to do animation.
But, I also loved video games. I didn't necessarily want to make them at the time, but I loved gaming, computers, and all that sort of nerdy stuff. This was around the same time that I had a Nintendo Entertainment System.
Cory Livengood:
I was going to ask, were you a computer gamer or a console gamer?
Kaye Vassey:
I started on an Atari 2600, it was right in the middle of the Pac-Man craze and I loved arcades. I still have the memories of going as a kid, that was a huge draw. So yeah, 2600, and then got the Nintendo Entertainment System, the NES. That really sealed the deal as far as gaming for me.
I also wanted to do comics, so I had these three interests and I decided then that they were what I wanted to do with my life. I had been drawing for a long time, art was just one of my hobbies. Then, of course, going through public school in South Carolina, it's like every person you face, you tell them, "Oh, I want to be an animator." They're like, "Okay, yeah, that's great but you need a backup plan." I've heard about the backup plan from every adult through college.
Cory Livengood:
What was your backup plan?
Kaye Vassey:
I was going to do graphic design and illustration. I leaned more towards an illustrator than a fine artist. I was in the camp that considered Norman Rockwell an artist as opposed to an illustrator, the commercial art which was frowned upon. So that was my backup plan: graphic design, illustration, motion graphics.
My intro to art was through my grandfather. He was a plumber by trade. He would come home for lunches and draw for me. Once he retired, he and I would just do art a lot of days, especially in the summer when I would stay at their house while I was out of school. We would just do art most days, we’d go in their basement and paint or draw and try to improve. It was a shared hobby that my grandfather and I had, which cemented everything when it came to choosing art as a career.
Kaye Vassey:
So, I made it through high school, having enrolled in AP art and music. Then, college was a bit of a kerfuffle. I had gotten a full scholarship to the School of Visual Arts in New York, but part of that scholarship was to begin at their Savannah Campus in Georgia for two years, then transfer to NYC to learn illustration. I was like, "absolutely!"
I had been accepted to Cal Arts, Ringling, RISD, Chicago, and all the major schools but couldn't afford them, so this was my solution. On Valentine's Day of my senior year, the guidance counselor called to tell me that SCAD had a pending lawsuit and so the Savannah Campus for the School of Visual Arts was closing its doors. They weren't allowed to take any more students. Sorry, thanks for playing.
Cory Livengood:
Oh, wow. Just like that?
Kaye Vassey:
Yeah. If you look it up online you can still find a little bit of the story. The only option I had was the University of Georgia. I went there for graphic design for a year, transferred back to Clemson in South Carolina, then told Clemson, "Listen, you have a small art department, and here's what I want to do: animation." I went through the entire course catalog and built my own degree. They were like, "okay, cool."
Cory Livengood:
That's great.
Kaye Vassey:
Yeah! I did a one-minute, traditionally animated short film as my senior project. Then came Disney, and that's where I got my first job doing motion graphics.
There were other jobs in-between, of course. I did a lot of menu design work for Denny's. Their HQ is in my hometown, so I did some graphic design there, mainly their different donation campaigns. There's always a box at the register to donate money to, I designed those. But ultimately, I ended up at Disney in the back lot doing motion graphics, animation, after effects, and wire removal for the TV shows they were shooting in Florida. Eventually, I figured out that I couldn't actually draw and started learning how to.
Cory Livengood:
Interesting.
“you can't stop learning. you have to always be willing to learn something new to stay in your career.”
Kaye Vassey:
The pond got much bigger and so it was like...
Cory Livengood:
Yeah, that's still happening.
Kaye Vassey:
Well, the internet makes it infinitely big. Right?
But yeah, it was a much bigger pond. Once I finally accomplished that goal, Disney was moving into 3D animation. While I was in college, I had taken computer science classes and weaseled my way into the labs that had animation software. The campus had an SGI computer with Wavefront and Power Animator which I got access to over the summers. It would be like 100 outside and the lab would be at 60 degrees. I would carry winter coats in there and animate in Alias PowerAnimator.
Cory Livengood:
I wanted to ask you about how you started so clearly with this comic art illustration, and now you're in technical animation. You deal with more of the code and the computer software. How did that transition occur?
Kaye Vassey:
Once Disney started moving toward computer animation, I got one traditional film under my belt--the Eight Crazy Nights film. That was with everybody who had been laid off or wasn't able to work at Disney because they were scaling down and trying to teach all the animators how to use Maya at the time. A lot left and went to Chicago for Big Idea Productions to work on the VeggieTales movie. It was their first. I got pulled along, dropped into a technical role, and started writing code and making tools. I was a render Wrangler/Render TD. Basically, in today's film industry, that role would have been an animation lighting TD. We were doing the final frames.
Kaye Vassey:
We made sure that everything was working, and went in to fix anything that wasn't. I ended up doing that for their film, and because of the advancements we made with Maya, it got noticed by Alias who was the company at the time that was making Maya up before it got bought by Autodesk. Through knowing people there, I ended up at DreamWorks. So, at DreamWorks, I started in clothing and finaling which was new in the industry. Now everybody has a clothing department called character effects.
Cory Livengood:
Gotcha. So that's like fabric simulation and things like that?
Kaye Vassey:
Yep. Fabric, hair, any type of skin simulation. For example, Shrek would touch his cheek and you would need it to deform. Animators don't have the controls for that, so we would go in after they did their work and do the in-betweens if you will. While handling that, my technical knowledge got to the point where they asked me to do effects. I ended up working on the first Madagascar film as well as Shrek 3. That was more of the fire, rain, water, smoke, dust, debris, and explosions.
Cory Livengood:
It seems like you found yourself being thrown into a lot of these situations, trial by fire.
Kaye Vassey:
Oh, absolutely, and learning along the way. That’s the thing, you can't stop learning. You have to always be willing to learn something new to stay in your career.
It just so happened that on Madagascar, the animation department was backed up, and we realized that some characters had not been animated in two of the zoo shots. So I animated the characters because the shots had to get done. After, they moved me into crowd and secondary character animation, which is where I eventually became a department head and supervisor for quite a few films.
Kaye Vassey:
I did that for 11 years, then I could tell that the industry was moving to India and Vancouver. Things were slowing down and the filmmaking process was getting a little out of hand. When you make a live-action piece or film, there's such a thing as coverage, right? You get all of your coverage, then what you end up cutting isn’t a big deal. You end up leaving a lot on the "cutting room floor." However, with animation, you have to start in the opposite direction. You pre-plan as much as you possibly can, because of the amount of time it takes to get characters made, animated, rendered, lit, the entire process. It's not as easy as shooting coverage.
Cory Livengood:
Cutting something after all that work is a huge waste.
“there's a lot of education and elevation that has to happen...when you come out. the question is, is that company willing to push for it, are they willing to put the time in to make their space safe for individuals of all groups?”
Kaye Vassey:
Right, and we were getting directors there toward the end that were cutting fully lit sequences that had been rendered. I could see the writing on the wall. Things were out of hand and it was going to get rough.
Cory Livengood:
So did you know at that point that video games were the next pivot, or was that also a surprise to you?
Kaye Vassey:
Well, that's where the backup plan comes in, right? As much as I hated that adult who pushed that idea back in the day, it has saved me quite a bit.
A lot of it plays on the environment that things are happening in. My daughter was born in Silicon Valley, my son as well, but the day that she was born was also the release of the first iPhone. I was literally in the hospital looking down at the Apple store in Burlingame, where they were opening for the first line of customers. I vividly remember being like, "I want to get down there, but…”
Cory Livengood:
You had important things to do.
Kaye Vassey:
Exactly. Things are happening here. So all of a sudden, there were these things called apps, they had an ecosystem, and tech began moving in that direction. Once I figured out you could make games for the iPhone, that's what I started doing at night as a side hobby. I ended up playing Gears of War and noticed that the studio credited was in Raleigh. I went on a deep dive and started figuring out who Epic was. I began connecting with people on LinkedIn back when LinkedIn was young.
Kaye Vassey:
When you got a connection on LinkedIn, it was like, "Whoa, a connection? Who is this person?" Now, you’ll sift through 200 requests a day. So, we ended up trading tours back and forth, they would come out for GDC, and to see DreamWorks, or I would be in LA supervising and they would come for E3. Then when I came home for holidays, I would ride up to Raleigh and check out their studio.
When it was time, I was like, "Hey, I think I'm ready to do this. Let's see if I can move over to Epic because things are looking kind of rough here." It was not an easy task. The games industry is different than film. In film, you have a lot of proprietary software like with Pixar, DreamWorks, Disney. So when you have a hire, you don't necessarily expect them to know your software.
Cory Livengood:
Right. The skills aren't always transferred like that.
Kaye Vassey:
No. Your knowledge is great, but it takes you about six months to learn the proprietary pipeline and figure out how you effectively use the new tools that I had never seen before. Games are different. They’re pretty much off the shelf, except for the engine. Now, of course, we democratized game engines with Unreal.
Cory Livengood:
Oh, yeah. Certainly.
Kaye Vassey:
That's a different story now because the environment has changed.
Cory Livengood:
That's the thing, a lot of people in the current generation realize that Epic is now so synonymous with Fortnite that it's like, “Oh, by the way, half the other games you've ever played are running software on Epic software.” Right?
Kaye Vassey:
And that's the thing. At the time, I had to test four times to get into the games industry. They basically send tests to prove that you're good enough. Epic was still at the level where they were only hiring senior-level artists. I mean, I'm coming from this area where we hire students out of college and train them because we believe in career advancement, and Epic was like, "You better be a badass." I was like, "I don't know how to be a badass, but all right."
Cory Livengood:
“I'll keep trying.”
Kaye Vassey:
I tested four times and finally got in and that was the start of it. As soon as I got into Epic, I went in and I was like, "So when are dailies?" They didn’t know what dailies were, I had to ask who was going to review my work. They were like, "You are. Just put it in the game and if somebody doesn't like it, they'll come to tell you." It was a completely different mentality. Now Epic is a well-oiled machine
Cory Livengood:
Certainly. Certainly.
Kaye Vassey:
So at the time, they put me on this little game called Fortnite with a very small team. I was the only technical animator on the game and took it all the way to fruition to what you see now.
Cory Livengood:
Can you talk a little bit about what it means to be a technical animator? What is the day-to-day that goes behind that title?
Kaye Vassey:
Yeah, and just for clarity, in film it's called rigging. You have a character rigger or a character TD, and that's generally their main job. What that entails is that you think of a 3D character as a puppet, then you as a rigger are articulating that puppet. You’re putting the bones and the controls in so that the animator can give the performance that they want.
In games, it's slightly different. Especially at Epic, and especially on Fortnite, because technically animation goes beyond just doing that. That's one facet of the job, it's also more like the character effects department that I was talking about earlier. We handle simulation, clothing, hair, physics, basically all the cool stuff that brings that extra layer of life to the characters, props, weapons, vehicles, etc. So, animation is much more. It’s a hybrid art technical role that is much more than rigging. Was that a good explanation?
Cory Livengood:
Yeah, that's perfect. So when you started with Fortnite, it sounded more like an afterthought. Now it has become this worldwide phenomenon.
Kaye Vassey:
Yeah, it was a small team that had been going in on various game jams for a while. It was overshadowed by Paragon, which was a larger game with deadlines. We were making the portion of the game that became Save the World. Then at one point after the release of Save the World, there was another team that worked on the PVP side of things. In helping them get the characters ready and troubleshooting for them, we built the bones that became Battle Royale.
Cory Livengood:
When we spoke the other day, you mentioned a moment that was sort of a make or break, could you recount that again? As I recall, there was this moment of, “Hey, if you can stick with this team and make this work, great, if it doesn't work, you're out.” Is that accurate?
Kaye Vassey:
I was the only technical animator on the entire game, so I brought on a junior hire to help. I built the team, to a large degree, before leaving the game. This was my first hire on this project, my first direct report on the game, and they were a junior.
It was up to me to train and make them effective, and if they came in and didn't accomplish things, in the eyes of the company, it wasn’t going to be good for me. It was make or break at that point.
Kaye Vassey:
The thing is, at DreamWorks, I had helped a lot with what we call the FX Challenge. That’s a curriculum and classes for graduating college students to come in and learn how to be VFX artists. They’d take the classes, learn our proprietary pipeline, work on shots and low-level effects, and we wouldn’t let any of them go. We trained them so well. I'm still connected with most of those students who have been at DreamWorks and Pixar and everywhere else for years now. I really believe that it’s an important aspect of hiring, growing your company, and growing artists in the world. Right?
Cory Livengood:
Yeah.
Kaye Vassey:
So that's what I did with this person. They're now leading the technical animation team on Fortnite.
Cory Livengood:
Excellent. Is it a pretty collaborative team environment or more focused on individual assignments?
Kaye Vassey:
Back when I was running the team, it was really collaborative. I can't speak to now very well, especially with working from home through the pandemic.
Kaye Vassey:
But at that time, yeah! The office was set up as a large room with desks. Everybody would talk and look at what everybody else was working on. It became one great collaboration. The way I would run dailies, during the meeting, everybody would be there. Anytime there was a problem, it was always best idea wins. Anybody that had a thought about, “Maybe you should try this...,” put it out there. It was collaborative from the get-go.
Cory Livengood:
Did you ever expect Fortnite to become as successful as it is now?
Kaye Vassey:
I don’t think anyone could predict that. I knew that it was a great game. I knew that the art was cool and that the style was awesome, it just needed to find the audience.
Cory Livengood:
Are you still a gamer? Do you still play?
Kaye Vassey:
I do when I can, but I’m not a huge Fortnite player.
Cory Livengood:
Sure. That's cool, not too shocking.
Kaye Vassey:
It quickly outgrew my skill set. I got some decent victories at the beginning, got some nice skins and everything I worked on, but then pros came along and were building skyscrapers in seconds. The data has changed to a place where I can't get there. But yeah, I do play. Dating back to the Nintendo that I had, my favorite game was Dragon Warrior which was the English release of Dragon Quest from Japan. I ended up getting it free. I think it was free. It was the '80s I can't remember exactly.
“the more feminine I became, the less my voice mattered to a degree.”
Kaye Vassey:
It’s about to get nerdy real quick. I think I got it free with the subscription, and it came with a thick instruction book that detailed weapons and enemies and stuff. Having already been exposed to Dungeons and Dragons, it was like it but without having to get everybody together and keep them organized. It was amazing, I loved it. I am still very much an RPG player. I was a wow player from day zero, I played Final Fantasy 11 with a group from DreamWorks, and have now moved over to Final Fantasy 14.
Cory Livengood:
I would love to touch a little bit on your comic background too.
Kaye Vassey:
Sure.
Cory Livengood:
It's the whole other side of the coin we haven't discussed, but throughout this whole journey you've described, you've also done work with hand-drawn comic strips.
Would you like to speak a little bit about that and your experience with the Legend of Bill and Gnome Syndicate?
Kaye Vassey:
Absolutely. So that started when I was working on How To Train Your Dragon. I might have said before, but Legend of Bill was a comic strip I had found online. As I said, it’s all about the era, and the environment. At this time, people started making webcomics. They hadn’t previously been a thing. XKCD was huge, Penny Arcade, and PvP. They were games fed directly into the most popular webcomics of the time, right?
Kaye Vassey:
I came across Legend of Bill and started following it. I thought it was really funny how they took Conan the Barbarian, and the fantasy realm idea and stood it on its head. So, I did a guest comment for the author, David Reddick. He wrote me back after having checked out my social media and was like, "Oh, my God, you work on How To Train Your Dragon?" He ran the guest strip and asked if I wanted to do another series in the Legend of Bill world. I said yes, because why not? I had a new kid and all the time in the world. A lot of my 20s and 30s were spent not going to bed before 2 or 3 AM, and then being up early the next day. Definitely not what I do now.
I started doing the Gnome Syndicate, which is in the fantasy realm of Legend to Bill. The fairies are like the FBI and the gnomes are more like the CIA. It all started as a joke in Legend of Bill. He would always draw and gnome, it was in the background and a lot of the strips. Anytime something big would happen in the story arc, there would always be this gnome chilling in the background. He kept recurring. It was David's idea to make him a watcher. To put it in modern Marvel terms, it would have been like the TVA. So the gnomes control time and space. They can teleport around and make sure that things don't happen to cause catastrophe in the timeline. This was all well before any of the Marvel MCU stuff. That was the beginning of my comic journey.
Kaye Vassey:
I believe gnome 12 was the original, so I picked up with gnome 13 and started running the storyline. I did it for years. Eventually, David Reddick, who was already working on Garfield at the time, ended up getting syndicated himself with his strips. Now he's an artist on Blondie. So, I took over Legend of Bill for several years and began intertwining the story arcs. It was a great run for a long time. I did a few weekends as an artist in residence at the Schulz Peanuts Museum which was awesome. But I eventually stopped to begin working on a graphic novel for a publisher. It's still in progress due to the pandemic and various other things.
Cory Livengood:
What are some major differences, also similarities, between film, comic, and video games; these three buckets you’ve found yourself in over the years.
Kaye Vassey:
First, it's all storytelling. You're all contributing to the story in some way, shape, or form. That's a big umbrella. It's an experience, whether oratory or interactive. That's the big thing that links them together. Though technique-wise, once you get under the hood, film and comics have a lot more in common to some degree. Anytime I'm drawing a panel, I'm always thinking, “Where's the camera and the space?”
Cory Livengood:
It's almost like a storyboard.
Kaye Vassey:
It is, and that's another thing, I think about it cinematically. I think about it based on contrast, and affinity, which is the principle that underlies what the original artists at Disney were calling ‘straight against curve’ in their character designs. You can have contrast and affinity in anything it works not only in character design but in storytelling and composition. In animation. You can apply it to so many aspects of creativity. So, film and comics are linked together in many ways that make them similar.
Kaye Vassey:
Games can be a bit different because they’re an interactive experience. You're adding a lot of extra tech that you don't necessarily need for comics. If you're going to draw a comic, then it's you, your materials, and the story. That's all you have. And words, whether they're your words, or someone else's.
Kaye Vassey:
Film is similar. It involves other issues, and now with 3D animation, you're talking about rendering, and you're talking about a series of images that are played back at 24 frames a second. Ultimately, as a film studio or a film artist, whatever you have to do to get that particular frame done, is what you have to do. Once that frame of film is done, that's your deliverable. That's it, it's done. With games, that concept is a little bit skewed. Because this is an experience that's going to happen over and over and over and over and over across the world, millions of times. It compounds itself. So the way that you design these things are similar, but with a very different outcome.
Cory Livengood:
I really like that.
Kaye Vassey:
It's interesting when you compare them all. Artistically, if you want to talk about the color temperature in an area, or how this lighting makes you feel you can, those are all similar, and that's from comics to film to games.
Cory Livengood:
Rely on how they are experienced. That's interesting.
As a trans individual, I wonder if you would be willing to talk about transitioning in an industry that's known for being cis-male dominated if that's something you're comfortable discussing?
Kaye Vassey:
Yeah, I'll totally do that. It's very safe to say that me coming out in an industry that is very, I would even say, cis-hetero-white male-dominated, was tough. It was tough for me and it was tough for Epic in a lot of ways. Let's talk about the LGBT+ community for just a second. The one thing about the trans community, and I've said this before in various places, is that if you are a gay male in games, I don't want to diminish anything, but it is easier for you to exist and "fly under the radar" of your peers. There is still a lot of stress involved if you have a partner. There's a great infographic, and I might mess up the name, but I believe it's Ned and Ted's Big Adventure.
Kaye Vassey:
It's a little infographic that shows a male couple who had a wonderful anniversary weekend. Monday morning, a co-worker comes up to one of the members of the couple and says, "Hey, what did you do this weekend?" That starts this chain infographic of asking, “Is this person safe to talk to? Do they agree with me? Do they know I'm out? Do they not know I'm out? If no, then what consequences does that bring by saying, ‘my partner or my husband’? Does that mean that they are going to treat me differently?” This infographic shows the stressful thought process that happens. The person gets back to their desk and has already gone through so much mental work just from getting their morning cup of coffee in the office. Hopefully, it makes company owners question, “Do I see the amount of stress that this person is starting their workday with and they haven't even gotten to the stress that you pay them for?”
Cory Livengood:
Sure.
Kaye Vassey:
Is that something you want to be okay with? And that's the point of the infographic. It's great, those examples are phenomenal. Now, from the trans perspective, let's take that idea. Let's take someone who, a month ago, came in presenting male. Now that person is standing in front of you in a dress and heels. The extra layer of all of that puts a lot of pressure on both sides. Not only that, you are going to be working with hormones, you're going to be diminishing what your body makes and potentially replacing them completely.
It’s one hell of a roller coaster, and so during that roller coaster, if I was advising a company, I would say if you have someone who's beginning their transition and they are coming out, be prepared for a lot of that. Give them soft landings. When I did it, I was the head of technical animation on Fortnite. It was currently the largest video game in the world. Ever. And I was the leader of the group that last touches assets before they go into the game.
Cory Livengood:
No pressure.
Kaye Vassey:
Also, while walking into the office presenting feminine. A lot of people who wanted to be nice in the world would say, "Oh, I support you, dude." It's like, you just didn't support me by saying that. There's a lot of education and elevation that has to happen within your co-workers and everyone around you at a company when you come out. The question is, is that company willing to push for it, and are they willing to put the time in to make sure that their space is safe for individuals of all groups? Epic is learning that, and they're doing a great job.
Cory Livengood:
That's a good segue. I understand that you're also leading inclusivity initiatives at Epic. Are they related to that exact topic?
Kaye Vassey:
I am. So now Epic has grown and matured as a company. They now have ERGs, which are employee resource groups. It is becoming a place that will hopefully show the rest of the gaming industry how to do it right and how to do it best.
Cory Livengood:
Excellent. It's great that they're willing to do that. I think wanting to improve on those initiatives is half the battle.
If you don't want to do it, then you're a lost cause. Even if you make mistakes along the way, wanting to move in that direction is a positive, right?
Kaye Vassey:
Yeah, you have to have a very forgiving nature to be okay. I believe they can be the best and I believe that they can show the industry how to do what this industry seems to have a problem doing. I believe that Epic can do it better.
Cory Livengood:
That's excellent. Have you found other co-workers feel comfortable confiding in you since you've come out? Has that been a good experience?
Kaye Vassey:
Initially, I was very alone. The more feminine I became, the less my voice mattered to a degree. I felt like I was out there by myself. There were other gay folks, but they kept a very low profile. They never really rocked the boat. They were doing what they had to do to, to work and thrive.
“I think all artists have imposter syndrome…one scroll through Twitter shows me these artists that are much younger than me, and they’re more amazing than I'll ever be. it's learning to cope with that.”
Kaye Vassey:
Again, when you're trans, not to diminish anybody's story, but when you're male to female, the contrast in appearance is what our society is so caught up in. Everybody is constantly gauging you based on your appearance. You're going right to that thing that society loves so much to critique, and you're flipping it on its head. You're going to begin a very, very slow process to achieve what society says is okay for your new “chosen gender." Which to be clear, gender is NOT a choice, but that's the belief thrown at you, right?
Cory Livengood:
Yeah.
Kaye Vassey:
So, walking around Epic like that, I would have people write me and come out to me. They would be like, "Please don't out me." Of course, I would never, never, ever, ever, ever do that, but they would write me and give me supporting words like, “Seeing you at work is giving me hope,” and all those sorts of things. So, I just kept doing what I was doing, which was shouldering all these people's compliments. I felt like I was caring a lot for a lot of people. Once the ERGs opened up, cautiously people started coming out and joining up. Now we’re in the hundreds!
Cory Livengood:
That's awesome.
Kaye Vassey:
Now, it's more about doing bigger things than just making people feel safe. Though that is still such an important aspect in all this. It's much easier now.
Cory Livengood:
It's cool to see how it's grown. Yeah, that's amazing.
Well, we're getting near the end of our time. Two last thoughts, one would just be if you wanted to speak a little bit about what you might be talking about with us at the Bash. If there's any insight you wanted to give towards that, or if there's anything that I didn't ask or some other tidbit that you'd like to drop into this conversation, I'd love to hear it!
Kaye Vassey:
Sure. At the bash, I would love to talk about my career path, how crazy it's been, and highlight some of the little moments that people don't expect; when they're in their careers, and they're feeling trapped, or feel like they’ve made a bad decision along the way. Basically talking about that backup plan, and how that terrible advice turned into okay advice, which turned into good advice, as I got older.
Along with the idea of everyone who's coming out now, how society is changing, and how people like me are going to be existing in spaces in this industry. Animation, art, we've been here the whole time. It's just now that a lot of people are going to have to face us and hear our voices.
Cory Livengood:
Oh, that's great. There’s another question I didn't ask. I wondered if you had any advice for someone who's trying to break into either the film or game industry?
Kaye Vassey:
Totally. That's almost a separate talk unto itself, right?
It's the size of the pond which I sort of touched on and will touch on in my talk. Now, with technology, that pond is the size of the world. It’s not your hometown versus your metropolitan area anymore. I think all artists have imposter syndrome. I won't say every, I'm not going to generalize, but most of the artists I know, when they look at their work, they think it's terrible. Even though it's artwork that has been at the professional level, you still see all your mistakes. You see all the places where you need to work, and the internet can make that even worse. One scroll through Twitter shows me these artists that are so much younger than me, and they’re more amazing than I'll ever be. It's learning to cope with that.
Kaye Vassey:
When it comes to education, in the past, I used to be so big on recommending art schools. But because of that bigger pond and the internet, connections are now available to professionals. You don't have to go to art school to get them, and there are so many online opportunities and professionals who have retired from the industry who are teaching online in their own way. If you have the drive and the passion, then you don't have to go into hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt to make it happen. Not today.
Kaye Vassey:
Now we're in the generation whose online teachers are the people who made Little Mermaid and Lion King, and the '90s Disney films. The students of that first generation. The animation industry is not old. Computer animation is even younger. Video games are young too. We’re finally at this place where we know what one generation of retirement looks like.
If you want to talk about it from a career standpoint, if you're going to be an engineer for a major company, you know what your retirement looks like. If you're going to be a police officer, you know what your retirement looks like. If you're going to be an animator, you could have no idea what your retirement looks like. Because there's not enough of us retired yet, and the ones that are, are the ones that made the best 2D animated films that we grew up with. Now, what they're doing is teaching online for small prices compared to giant art schools.
Cory Livengood:
So true. I often think about how young motion graphics is, but I had not put it in the framework of retirement in that way. It's an interesting way to look at it. After the career what do you do at that point? Who knows, right?
Kaye Vassey:
And right now they're teaching. I can name a bunch. Aaron Blaise, there's CAT Animation, iAnimate, Animation Mentor. I worked with a man named Tim Hodge at Big Idea, he's a wonderful director and was Head of Story on Mulan, he just did a storyboard class. He still does freelance storyboard work for films and he did a class for Aaron Blaise's website. I think it was on sale for $30. It was literally hours of video lecturing with examples for...
Cory Livengood:
$30.
Kaye Vassey:
For 30 bucks. Knowing what I know now as an old person in my mid-40s, if I really had that passion for storyboarding, it was in my heart, why would I consider paying an art school 40 grand to learn those things when I can get a one-on-one lesson with the Head of Story from Mulan for $30? It doesn't make economic sense, right?
Cory Livengood:
It doesn't. As someone who hires people from time to time, the first thing we look at is work. It's not what school you went to.
We’ll look at that, it's always interesting, and that's part of the equation perhaps, but it's really about the portfolio. It's the work. It's not, “Did you go to school?” I don't care. Is it a community college? I don't care. Is it art school? I don't care.
Kaye Vassey:
I mean, I do believe that advanced education can be important when it comes to communication and other aspects of business.
Cory Livengood:
Oh, absolutely, or even networking. There are a lot of reasons why I agree with that statement, but when it comes to the actual work, the skill set, and the passion for it, it's not as important as it used to be.
Kaye Vassey:
If I had it to do over again, the important things that I got from going to art school were deadline and accountability skills. You don't get those when you're just a passionate artist working on your own.
They’re important, but if I had to do it again, I would skew my classes more toward 1.) Computer Science, because that's just a good skill to have now, and 2.), Business. I would ultimately skew more toward business, and do my art every other waking minute; getting feedback from people online, doing the courses at various online animation schools. Because honestly, when I came out of college, I didn't even know how to pay taxes.
Kaye Vassey:
Ultimately, all of us as artists just end up working for someone else helping them accomplish their goals, as opposed to, if you have stories in you, you need a way to get them out. You need a way to make them come to life, and the only way you do that is to work for yourself.
“it's not for the old. it's for the hungry. you need that fire. (animation)”
Cory Livengood:
It's funny if you'd asked me, six, seven years ago if I'd be a business owner, I would have laughed because I was an animator. I was perfectly happy doing that. It’s been quite the journey to learn how to run a business. To create a team. To make people feel like their careers are advancing the way they want them to like they're able to push their skills forward. Also just the nitty-gritty things about taxes, organization, and HR; all that stuff that I wouldn't have known. A little bit of trial by fire on that end but it has been a really exciting journey.
Having worked for people as an animator who didn't know anything about animation or design, it's nice having that foundation when you're talking to clients or you're staff about what is possible, what isn’t possible, what deadlines look like. I have a little more insight than some of my previous employers because I've been in the trenches as it were.
Kaye Vassey:
It's all about self-motivation. The self-motivated artists are the ones who end up succeeding in the studios anyway.
The ones that aren't are going to wash out. Because when it gets tough when you're in your first animation job and you're learning new software, it's not for the old. It's for the hungry. You need that fire.
Cory Livengood:
All right, excellent. Well, really appreciate this conversation. This has been a blast and I'm sure you'll end up repeating yourself, yet again, when we get to the actual event, but great.
Kaye Vassey:
Absolutely.
Cory Livengood:
Great. Good to see you, Kaye.
Kaye Vassey:
Yeah, have a good day. Bye.