Mack Garrison 10/31/23 Mack Garrison 10/31/23

Takeover Tuesday with André Leite

An interview with André Leite: a motion designer and pizza lover from Brazil, currently living in Lisbon, Portugal.

Interviewer: Bella Alfonsi

Read time: 5min

Bella:

Thanks so much for joining us for Takeover Tuesday, Andre! Could you please give us a lil' intro?

André:

Hey there! I'm André Leite, a creative motion designer, punk rock enthusiast, and pizza lover, originally from Brazil, but currently rocking it in Lisbon, Portugal.

Bella:

How did your career in the motion industry start?

André:

This a long one…before diving into Motion, I went through various "fun" jobs. I worked at a skate shop, a tattoo studio, and also organizing music shows in Fortaleza (my hometown). By chance, in 2008, a friend invited me to work at a local TV network that only played music videos. I've always had a passion for videos and music, so when I saw the editing suites there, I thought to myself, "This is where I belong, sitting in the air conditioning (Fortaleza is crazy hot!) and editing MTV style segments - this is perfect!”

After learning how to edit, I started watching Andrew Kramer's videos and gradually transitioned from editing to VFX. I dived deeper into my studies through tutorials and books. In other words, I was completely self-taught on this journey.

I then began working at commercial production companies, where, in addition to editing and VFX, I was also required to animate texts, icons, packshots,

transitions, and more. It was there that I discovered the magical world of animation. Although I sometimes worked 14-18 hours a day and even slept several nights on an air mattress in the editing suite, I can say that this period was an intensive After Effects course. I faced all sorts of challenges and never had enough time. I struggled a lot, but I also learned a great deal.

After working some years at the top video production companies in Fortaleza, I moved to São Paulo, the land of opportunities. If you stand still for too long on street corner in São Paulo, a job might just fall and hit your head. After a while, throught networking, agencies and studios were constantly calling me to create explainer videos, which I loved because I found working with animation is much more enjoyable than VFX. I became a freelancer and never looked back. After a few of years, I wanted to challenge myself so, I bought "The Animator's Survival Kit" and focused my studies on character animation. And that's what I continue to do to this day.

Bella:

With over 10 years of experience in the industry, how do you feel it has changed over time?

André:

Definitely, the amount of information and softwares is crazy now! Back when I started was challenging to find study materials, especially for those who didn't speak English. It was very rare to come across another motion designer. Nowadays, if you open a pack of cereal, you might even find a motion designer as prize…

Motion design has become incredibly popular. Every client wants or already has a motion video for their company. With each passing day, there is new information and techniques to study. At the same time, I really feel motion design has evolved into a vast international community, where practically anyone can participate, whether they're working in the field or simply appreciating the work. And events such as OFFF or Dash Bash really help to consolidate this sense of Community.

Bella:

What's the animation scene like in Portugal? Are your clients mostly there or do you find yourself working more internationally?

André:

When I arrived here in 2017, I was primarily working for the Portuguese market. It was great! I made a lot of networking connections, friends, and learned a lot. However, Portugal is a small country, and there aren't many clients with big budgets. So, gradually, I started seeking international clients to not solely depend on the local market. In my case, nowadays, I would say that I work 25% for Portugal and 75% overseas.I believe the studios here are doing the same, increasingly looking for international clients.

An undeniable fact about Portugal is the abundance of talent—there's truly a lot of it! However, when these talents are unable to work remotely, they often move to countries that offer better pay. Overall, I feel that with each passing year, the motion community in Portugal is stronger and more competitive.

Bella:

What's your process like for animating characters? What's your favorite thing about character animation?

André:

I'm a rebel who likes to do everything within After Effects, including the illustration, if possible. And I stick to the basic principles of animation.

I normally start by creating simple key poses, sometimes using "stick paths" just to understand what kind of rig I'll need. Once I have a simple rig for the character, I begin animating the in-between frames, and only then do I add details like lighting, shadows, and textures. I usually leave the animation of the head/face for last, I'm not sure why, probably it's just a habit.

Without a doubt what I enjoy the most is the challenge of always doing something new, either animating different art styles or trying out a new character movement that I've never done before. It constantly requires me to put my brain to work, figuring out how to achieve it, and it never gets boring.

Bella:

You've worked in so many different fun styles. Is there one you enjoy the most?

André:

To be honest, I don't have a preferred style, I simply enjoy animating. Nowadays, I have been able to choose

my projects with more aesthetic consideration, which is great! In the past, I animated numerous stock image characters, but now I tend to collaborate with illustrators who have their own unique style. In addition to character animation, I'm particularly drawn to animating technology videos in a UX/UI style, with all that gradients and abstract shapes, I love it!

*Gif from the “Make your Flag Green” project.*

Bella:

Is there a project you've worked on that stands out as a favorite to you?

André:

Yes! I’ve a project that is very dear to me, and surprisingly, it's a video without any characters. What makes me love this video so much is that it was created from scratch - script to final video by myself, my wife, and my former business partner— a very small team. We had limited time and resources, but it was a lot of fun to work on and it gained quite a lot of views on social media.

Here's the link for anyone who wants to check it out.

Bella:

When you find yourself in a creative rut, how do you get out of it? What or who inspires you?

André:

Well, I strive to remain in a perpetual state of motion, keeping myself updated both online and in the so-called "real world," although who knows if we're already in the Matrix after all these AI advancements. I go to museums, concerts, and industry conferences to seek

inspiration too. Sometimes, I observe people, like people riding bicycles on the streets, and that becomes a source of inspiration for animating a character. I’ve always been very observant, so be careful not to become a reference in my work!

Bella:

What's the proudest moment in your career thus far?

André:

The first time I worked for a major studio outside of Brazil I really felt like I had broken a barrier. After opening that door, international clients started coming one after another, leading to cooler projects, working with big teams and renowned brands.

Bella:

Any final words of advice or projects coming up this year that you're excited about you'd like to share?

André:

Firstly, I would like to thank Dash for the invitation and acknowledge this initiative that, in my opinion, adds a lot to our community. Thank you!! \o/

A piece of advice for everyone starting in this field is to remember that it's not enough to master all the software. We must realize that a significant part of the work is communication. Often, the biggest challenge is understanding what the client truly wants and finding the best way to convey the message. Sometimes, it's something simple, yet powerful. What I mean is that having good communication with your client is more

valuable than spending nights trying to create something overly complex that isn't what the client desires but rather what you want.

Recently, I was invited to animate Colonel Sanders from KFC, which was awesome, because he is such a recognizable character. It was a super complex photo-collage project, but at the same time, a lot of fun. We are still working on the Behance page, but here is the final video. I hope you enjoy it:

Mack Garrison 10/17/23 Mack Garrison 10/17/23

Takeover Tuesday with Elyse Kelly

An interview with Elyse Kelly: a filmmaker who unites the unique characteristics of animation with documentary storytelling.

Interviewer: Bella Alfonsi

Read time: 5min

Bella:

Hi Elyse! Thanks so much for taking the time to join us on a Tuesday Takeover. For those who aren’t familiar with you or your work, could you tell us about yourself?

Elyse:

Hi! Thanks for having me. It's an honor to be in such good company with this series.

I'm a director based in Washington DC, as well as the founder of Neon Zoo. I'm best known for my work in the documentary world, but I've done a little bit of everything at this point in my career. Regardless of genre, what I love most is giving a platform to unexpected and untold stories.

I also teach animation at Georgetown University, which I'm told by my partner is my one true love when it comes to anything career related. Who knew!

Bella:

How did your career begin? Did you always know you wanted to be in the motion design industry?

Elyse:

To be honest, I don't know if I would consider myself to be in the motion design industry even now! I'm more of a "floater" (that's definitely going to read weird) between a bunch of different industries in our entertainment/media world.

I did always know that I wanted to work in animation though. Not to age myself... but I fell in love with animation after seeing the 1990 re-release of The Jungle Book in theaters. It totally amazed me to think that grownups could make cartoons for a living. What more could you ask for?

Of course, my journey to get where I am now was anything but linear, and includes everything from mocapping robots to cheesemongering and everything in between. But looking back on it all, it's amazing to think that I essentially achieved my childhood dream.

Bella:

Tell us about your full-service animation studio, Neon Zoo!

Elyse:

Neon Zoo is a little over a year old now! But really it's much older than that in practice--it was a natural next step to the work I'd already been doing for years, which is directing/producing projects with the most creatively talented and joyful artists you could hope to work with. Definitely make sure to check out our portfolio to see all their credits--hire them, befriend them, and hug them for me if you live in the same city! I have too many Zoom friends... but now I'm rambling.

Building off of my work in the documentary world, our focus at the studio is to create both "impact-driven and artistically-minded content for film, television and the web." If we can use our skills to help uplift communities and important messages, that's where we're interested in spending most of our time.

In addition to that, we're continuing to invest in our community by supporting teammates in telling their own stories. We have a number of projects in development that range from very personal short docs to surreal narrative series to interdisciplinary productions. It's early days for a lot of them, but I can't wait to share them with you all.

Bella:

The motion design industry is full of folks who have extensive schooling and none at all. Do you feel like getting a Masters Degree in Animation and Digital Arts helped a bunch? Would you recommend higher-education for other folks?

Elyse:

Don't do it! Haha. I'm joking. Kind of.

I talk about this a lot with my students who oftentimes feel that they'll be at a disadvantage in the industry for not attending an art or film school. But there are so many different angles to approach a career in our field, especially if you want to direct. And the skills you use most in those roles aren't the ones you "learn" in school: good communication (see every relationship), effective sales (cheese shop), and compassionate leadership (real estate firm).

Grad school is a huge financial commitment; you can't quite wrap your brain around it when you're younger, or at least I couldn't. So what I would say is think about what you're looking to get out of a formal education: is it skills? Contacts? Time? If you have the means and feel that it's worth the cost (in all senses of the word), go for it. But if it's not for you, that's ok. There are definitely alternative places to learn, and build your community.

And while I don't think grad school was necessarily the right fit for me, I did meet lifelong friends and creative partners that I'll always carry with me. That wasn't my "goal" going in, but it's definitely not something I would trade.

Also, I did learn one CRITICAL lesson in grad school: YOU DON'T HAVE TO ANIMATE ON 1s?! (shoutout to Sara Spink and Willie Williams! IYKYK).

*Frame from “Johnny’s Home” - a 2018 Annecy Selection.*

Bella:

You have a super impressive resume of clients (Netflix, the ACLU, Sony Music, etc.) as well as awards (Emmy, Webby, Addy, etc)! Tell us a little bit about that.

Elyse:

It always sounds so fancy when you line everything up together. What I'll say is that I've been incredibly lucky to have worked for and with incredibly talented people--clients who trust us to bring their stories to life, and artists who pour their hearts into every project that we do. All of that comes through in the work.

Bella:

You are an amazing storyteller and all of the work you’ve directed evokes such emotion. Where do you find inspiration for the stories you tell?

Elyse:

That means a lot. Thanks so much.

The inspiration always comes from the people featured in the work. That's definitely true with documentary projects, but applies to my other work as well. I start by asking the basic questions, "Who is this person? What is their story?" You can tell a lot about someone by the way they tell their own story--their tone, when they pause, what makes them cry (and sometimes more importantly what doesn't). As a director, it's my job to figure out how to translate that in the most authentic way possible. Being the custodian of someone else's story is a lot of responsibility, and not one that I take lightly. Every creative decision is made not just in service of "the art", but with that person and their experience in mind--they are my audience and end game. If I can ensure that our work connects with and respects those people, anything else is just icing.

Bella:

How do you get yourself out of a creative rut?

Elyse:

Great question. I feel like I'm continuing to evolve my approach to this. One thing that I'm working to be better at is giving myself the time and space to just "be". There's a lot of pressure as a creative to always be doing, making, creating. I've found that I'm most creative after I've taken time for myself, even if it's just a walk around the neighborhood. It's obvious, but definitely a lesson I keep reminding myself of. I've also learned over the years not to put too much pressure on having to make "my own" work. We pour so much of ourselves into everything we do, including client work, that sometimes that's enough for me to be creatively fulfilled. Plus those client projects help me flex my creative muscles while giving space to simmer on all the personal stuff that I'm excited about.

Bella:

What’s your favorite thing about being a director?

Elyse:

My team. Day in and day out. Their passion and insane talents inspire me, drive me to be better, and really make this job worth it. And to go back to the previous question, definitely help pull me out of those creative ruts!

Bella:

As someone with over 15 years of experience in the industry, where do you think the future of the motion design industry is headed? And how is it already different now than it was 15 years ago?

Elyse:

This is a big one. It reminds me of the classic, "Where do you want to be in five years?" interview question that was always so stressful to answer.

We're definitely at a crossroads in a lot of respects across the entire animation and media industry--insane technology advancements, unionizations, the further commercialization of art, the continued fight to bring more diversity to the table, etc. It can feel like a lot, so instead of a prediction, what I would say is that we need to keep pushing. Pushing for spaces like this that champion unique voices and honest conversations, pushing to give anyone and everyone the opportunity to tell their stories, pushing this artform forward because of the love we have for it. It's been a weird few years, and as cheesy as it sounds we need to continue investing in ourselves and our community because no one else is going to do it for us.

Either that, or we all just escape to one of those Italian villages they've been giving away for free. Who's with me?!

Bella:

Any final advice/takeaways?

Elyse:

I've already talked too much! Thanks for listening.

("Applications" for Italy will be opening soon.)

Mack Garrison 10/3/23 Mack Garrison 10/3/23

Takeover Tuesday with Jordan Knight

An interview with Jordan Knight: a multi-media designer, animator, illustrator who has worked with clients all over the commercial, social media, and entertainment world.

Interviewer: Bella Alfonsi

Read time: 5min

Bella:

Thanks for joining us for Takeover Tuesday, Jordan! Can you please introduce yourself?

Jordan:

Hi! I’m Jordan Knight, I’m a motion designer based out of Brooklyn but originally from upstate New York and I’ve worked as a freelancer for the majority of my career. I am also queer, I like to bike (as a commuter mostly), love a painting exhibit (late 19th century is my favorite), and I also have a pet snake.

Bella:

How did you get into the motion design world?

Jordan:

In school I had much more patience for art and drawing than any other subject, and I loved movies. So animation felt like a convenient way to mix both of my interests. I went to SCAD for an animation degree and when I was 90% of the way through I took an intro class for After Effects and only learned then about motion design. I thought there was so much more room to grow as an experimental designer in that industry, which I eventually realized was such a huge priority for me in my own creative process. So I made the choice to switch gears after graduation. It took a few transitional years of working as a graphic designer for bodegas and bars, as a studio manager for a small agency, and then slowly working on my after effects confidence on the side to get to a point where I felt I was ready to try taking on a freelance job. I made a lot of mistakes, but I learned a lot in that process and I think I grew the most in my skills as an artist, as a professional, and as a person, by taking that leap into freelance.

Bella:

Do you have any advice for other artists who are trying to go full-time freelance?

Jordan:

This is sort of advice for anyone, not just freelancers, but don’t have any shame about sounding stupid when it comes to asking questions. Books and blogs are great resources, but building real life connections to talk about rates, contracts, new technologies, is going to be your most valuable resource throughout your career. I’ve learned so much about technique and insider tips by asking other artists out for coffee, going to workshops, and community events. As a freelancer staying organized is also extremely important. Keep track of your invoices, your contacts, emails, projects, backups of those projects. Life is so much less of a headache when you know where to find everything. This advice comes from some of my biggest mistakes throughout my early career, so set up goals and learn early, and keep learning to stay relevant and engaged with the industry. Oh, and taxes are just so much easier with an accountant, it’s worth it and a write-off.

Bella:

As a multi-media designer, you have mad skills in multiple different areas. Is there a certain area you prefer to work in? Like animation over design or directing, vice versa?

Jordan:

I’m very much a conceptual thinker so I do typically prefer to spend the most thought and care in the design department. Unfortunately, advertising hasn’t always allowed for that kind of time and money so I often use a lot of my down time to explore design techniques and style.

Bella:

Where do you find inspiration?

Jordan:

This is where living in NYC really has its perks. We really have some of the most amazing museums in the world. A couple of my most frequented include Poster House, and of course the MET. Walking down most New York streets is an absolute advertising vortex of posters, video installations, stickers, murals, made by incredibly talented artists. I’m also really big on Sci-fi and horror films so older special effects really have a soft spot in my heart. A couple years ago I bought a bunch of Heavy Metal magazines from the 70s-90s and I absolutely love the variety of illustration work in there and always look back to find cool drawing inspiration. Lately just a shadow hitting the sidewalk in a strange way will spark my interest and I’ll wonder if I could distort it, stack it, cut it up and collage it, and find use for it in a design.

Bella:

How does your creative process for client work differ from the process for a personal project?

Jordan:

I think professionally as an animator I’m very outcome oriented. I have a deadline, a structure, and a good sense for how I am expected to execute in a timely manner. My own projects are much more chaotic and I often don’t know what I’m making until I’m surrounded by scraps of doodled on papers, made three new pinterest boards, and bought a new stupid thing on ebay that I’ve convinced myself is the answer to all my creative blocks. But it works for me!

Bella:

I love the collage style that you've used in several projects. What's the best way to approach animation for this style?

Jordan:

My biggest focus is making something digital look tactile and handmade. I have TONS of stockpiled textures that come in handy for this and I often make many of my own. I’ve got probably ten different saved expressions for giving a gritty stop motion feel that I use interchangeably. I also think starting the design process by hand and then finding a way to adapt digitally second allows me to be more expressive in the initial stages and leaves me more room to explore what sort of motion would work best with a specific style.

Bella:

What would you say to someone who is trying to "find their style?"

Jordan:

Frankly I can’t even confidently say I’ve found my own, and I may never commit to just one. I think I feel very comfortable with that. Some people really find a style that works for them and that's great. I don’t think finding a style is always necessary. It certainly has benefits as a freelancer to brand yourself to a type of work but I’m definitely a person who loves exploring different mediums. Although I’ve sort of been known for my collage work I am definitely constantly evolving that style into something different. So my advice is just make what you want to make, whether you want to stick to one style or not, that decision will come later and it will come organically.

Bella:

I'm sure it's difficult to choose, but do you have a favorite project you've been a part of?

Jordan:

I had a lot of fun working on Paris Hilton’s documentary. While I was animating on that I shared a coworking space with Miguel Hernandez, the illustrator on the project, and we had such a blast working together. He had me help out with illustration tasks, which isn’t a skill I often get to flex as primarily an animator, but I had so much fun with it. Every week he’d lend me a ton of art books and graphic novels from his collection that I’d spend every night absolutely devouring, so I got to learn a lot in that time on and off the project. Even when deadlines were tight and overwhelming, Miguel made the process fun and easy.

I also found out later that I had indirectly worked alongside my current partner, an assistant editor on the project, who I hadn’t officially met until two years after the release. So shout out to Paris Hilton for the matchmaking.

*One of the scene’s from the Paris Hilton Documentary Jordan worked on.*

Bella:

Any projects that you're excited about?

Jordan:

I just finished up a really fun project with the absolutely wonderful team at Mighty Oak: NYC Votes!

Also keep an eye out on my instagram @jjknightart for more work!

Mack Garrison 9/12/23 Mack Garrison 9/12/23

Takeover Tuesday with Tom Van Deusen

An interview with Tom Van Deusen an animator and visual designer living in New York City.

Interviewer: Matea Losenegger

Read time: 5min

Matea:

Hey Tom! Thanks for lending your time. Can you please tell us a little about yourself?

Tom:

Thank you! I'm a visual designer and animator based out of New York City. I like to write and draw comics too. I have a cat named Spooky. I'm currently a Senior Motion Designer at a large media company. My favorite color is #CD9704..

Matea:

What is your background and how did you wind up in the motion design world?

Tom:

I grew up loving to write and draw, glued to the television during the golden age of deranged, socially irresponsible cartoons of the mid-90s. My mom was an art teacher and was fully encouraging of all my creative pursuits. I'll never forgive her. I earned a BFA in 2008 and entered the workforce fabulously ill-suited for a global recession.

Over the subsequent 11 years I worked a lot of interesting jobs, from Network Control Center Technician to Financial Operations Analyst. Very interesting. At night I did freelance illustration and wrote hundreds of pages of comics. I have some books that got published that are really screwing up my SEO.

Anyhoo, at the age of 33 I went back to school for graphic design at the advice of several designer friends who sensed how thoroughly miserable I was. There's a great program they had attended called the Seattle Creative Academy. I learned visual design, UX/UI, packaging and a bit of motion.

I had enough motion footage by graduation to put together a reel. I applied to oodles of jobs and got an offer for a visual design job and a motion design job the same week. It was then that I made the difficult decision to take the one that paid a lot better.

It’s Tom!

Matea:

Do you still use traditional mediums, and do you think it's important for digital artists to flex those more 'tactile' muscles?

Tom:

I was a bit of a luddite in my art-making before going back to school. I drew my comics with a dip pen and Rapidograph. I poo-pooed those who drew on digital tablets, knowing that I was making something physical that will be celebrated by future generations.

Now I'm drawing mostly digitally, and there will be less stuff for my grandchildren to throw into a landfill. I still draw on paper sometimes, but usually just sketches or life drawing. I feel very good about myself when I tap the paper with two fingers to undo before I realize I actually need to use my eraser. My goal is to have my life's work be inaccessible when I stop paying for Creative Cloud.

Matea:

Congratulations on cooking up a spicy new reel! It's a process many of us dread, but yours turned out great. What would you say goes into creating a compelling one?

Tom:

Thank you very much! I've made a lot of stuff over the past years and it was difficult to pare it down and objectively look at it. To make a good reel I'd say takes watching YouTube videos on how to make a good reel. It was also extremely helpful to get feedback from a lot of other, talented motion designers such as yourself. It's hard to tell what's garbage when everything is your precious baby. Sometimes your precious baby is garbage.

Matea:

It was a really cool idea to incorporate footage of NYC in the opening and close. Has living in the city affected your work at all?

Tom:

Thanks! I moved here from Seattle about a year ago to be closer to family and because my job is in Manhattan. I wanted to incorporate some real-life video footage in addition to my animation, and filmed some stuff on my phone. Because I'm in NYC, those shots are footage of NYC.

As far as influence, I love drawing dense urban areas, and there's a lot of that here. I'd love to find a screen printing co-op in the city to print some of those drawings, so if anyone knows of one in the city please let me know!

Matea:

You have such a playful yet striking illustration style. How would you describe your creative voice and what was the process in developing it?

Tom:

That's very kind. I'm definitely a product of alternative comics. That was the "scene" I was in for a very long time. Over the years I simplified my drawings, replacing fussy cross-hatching with flat colors. I also love children's book illustration. Over the years I've been lucky enough to know a lot of talented artists and illustrators, and I'm sure I'm cribbing some of their styles. Or let's just call it osmosis, for legal reasons.

Matea:

In a similar vein, where do you find inspiration?

Tom:

I hate to say the internet, but nowadays there's such easy access to amazing artwork on the internet that I have to say the internet. I hated saying that. I've also gone to a lot of incredible museums and gallery shows in the city, and it's impossible to not be inspired by those. And usually some crazy idea will pop into my head that's funny to me, and it will make me laugh aloud in public. Not sure how or why that happens, but I wish it would stop.

Matea:

If budget and time weren't constraints, what would be your dream project to work on?

Tom:

I'd love to make an animated short based on the comic that I'm working on. It's currently about a duck and an alligator, but will soon include a snake, a mouse and a giraffe. I have a lot written for it but can barely find the time to draw it into a comic. I'm currently drip-feeding it onto my Instagram. The good news is that it's zero budget and nobody cares how long it takes me.

Matea:

Do you have any wisdom for aspiring creatives and what do you wish you had known when you first started out?

Tom:

You have to live a life to do anything creative. Don't fret if you think everyone else has their nose down at their Cintiq while you're drinking White Claws on the beach. You can't make art in a vacuum, and life's short. Enjoy it.

*One of the scene’s from Tom’s recent comic.*

Matea:

Do you have any upcoming projects you're excited to share with the world?

Tom:

I'm actually very excited by that comic I'm working on, even though my productivity doesn't always match that excitement. I'm having fun drawing it, and since it's a personal project that's the important part.

Mack Garrison 8/29/23 Mack Garrison 8/29/23

Takeover Tuesday with Nick Fairbanks

An interview with Nick Fairbanks a freelance illustrator and animator living in Atlanta, Georgia.

Interviewer: Bella Alfonsi

Read time: 5min

Bella:

Nick! Thanks again for joining us for Takeover Tuesday. Can you please give us a lil' intro to let the people know who you are and what you do?

Nick:

Hi! The name’s Nick. I’m a freelance illustrator and animator living in Atlanta, Georgia. I mostly work in the startup and tech world but I’m trying to break into editorial work and children’s books.

Bella:

How'd you get into illustration and animation?

Nick:

I got my degree in documentary filmmaking at Florida State University. I had to learn After Effects and really loved it. I had some intricately animated sequences in a documentary I was working on and it impressed a classmate who had a startup company. He hired me to create an animated explainer for their product and was willing to pay $800 which was a lot for me at the time. I had always drawn things, but as I worked on the animated explainer, I learned about Dribbble and Pinterest and became exposed to the world of tech art. By the time I graduated, I was working for the startup company and had pivoted my career goals towards tech illustration.

Bella:

Your style is unique and I've always been a big fan because it looks like it belongs in a book or magazine. What advice do you have for people trying to "find" their style?

Nick:

It’s incredibly hard to create a style that is truly your own. You don’t have to scroll that far back in my feed to see that the way I draw has changed a lot over the years as my influences have changed. But the art we make will always be influenced by those we look up to and that has to be okay. For me, it’s people like Oliver Jeffers, Vincent Mahe, Tom Hugonaut, Miroslav Sasek, Robinson, Quentin Blake. It’s important to keep in mind that there are two components to style: 1. the way you create art and 2. the stories you tell. Be conscious of what you’re taking from others and what you’re contributing that is your own. Find a balance that allows you to sleep comfortably at night. As far as actionable advice, the most common theme in art is people. So draw a janitor, a politician, a florist etc. Draw lots of people and then ask yourself, what would a car look like that this person would drive? What would their house look like? Build out the world in your style, starting with people.

Bella:

Where do you find inspiration?

Nick:

The most interesting things have some truth in them so I try to pull inspiration from the places I go and people I meet. I always keep a little notebook I can fit in my back pocket and write down the things I see and the thoughts they prompt as they happen.

Bella:

Can you tell us a bit about your website, aportraitof.info?

Nick:

My Grandmother passed in 2021 and while I had plenty of photos, I had only one video. It prompted me to think how nice it would have been to have a long form video of her, and even better if she was answering deep, thought provoking questions. I created A portrait of as a way to do just that. I’ve filmed about a dozen so far and while it’s emotionally rewarding, it is very time consuming. I don’t advertise it much anymore, but if people reach out and want me to do it for their family, I’m always happy to do it. I may pick it back up more seriously in the future, but it's too far removed from my larger goals to warrant dedicating time to.

Bella:

What's the process like for managing your own Etsy shop?

Nick:

I initially wanted to print, pack, and ship all my own work. I sold out of 40 prints in a few days which was really encouraging, but the process was taxing. As of right now, I just offer digital downloads so that people can print them however they want. I’m thinking a lot about passive income, so I’ll keep the store as is for now, but I will be looking into working with a printing company soon who can handle all that for me.

Bella:

How has your random mug drawing series on Instagram been helping you combat creative block? Is there anything else you like to do when you feel stuck?

Nick:

Yeah, it’s been really helpful! I actually draw the first thing I pull from the list. I was spending way too much time thinking about what people would want and it was stifling my ability to create. If I don't want to draw something from that list, I go on long walks and don’t come home until I have something clear in my head.

Bella:

Some of your advice on the gram is to try to "create something every day that makes you want to call your mom and tell her about it." (amazing advice btw). What's something you've worked on recently that made you want to tell your mom about it?

Nick:

My mom is my biggest supporter so she sees most of my work on IG before I get around to telling her about it. That aside, I was excited to tell her about a side project I spun up, creating animated portraits of creatives I interviewed while traveling around Europe and Asia a few months ago. I only shared a small portion of our conversation on social media but she wanted to hear about the whole thing.

Bella:

You've got a pretty big social media following (100k followers WOO)! Any advice for people trying to get noticed and share their work on social media?

Nick:

For context, I’ve been sharing my art on IG for 9 years. 8 months ago, I had a following of 5,000 or so. The cityscapes went sort of viral and propelled my following to what it is now, and I’ve been hovering around 100 for the last 3 months. So the bulk of followers came in about 4 months. But here’s what I’ve learned:

1. People love to travel. My cityscapes remind people of where they’ve been or where they want to go. People are always sharing it or tagging their friends. Anything that has to do with travel is going to increase your chances of it performing well.

2. People love to love. Create content around relationships or love. If you can strike that chord, reminding people of someone they love, or loved, it will perform well.

3. Elevate your work with animation. It doesn’t have to be anything major. Most of the animation I incorporate is really subtle and simple to execute. But it performs better on average than a static post.

4. It has to be either really strong stylistically, or really strong conceptually.

Look at something you’ve made and ask yourself, “Why would a stranger care about this or want to share it with their friend?”

Bella:

Anything you're looking forward to working on/doing in the future?

Nick:

I’m ALMOST done with a Skillshare course on how to draw my cityscapes [Update it’s live!]. I’ve been talking about it for months and should be publishing it in the next 2-3 weeks. After that, I’ll be working on my website and try to make a real career out of freelancing.

Mack Garrison 7/17/23 Mack Garrison 7/17/23

Meet the speakers: Amanda Godreau

An interview with Amanda Godreau, a Puerto Rican multidisciplinary artist. Through bold work, Amanda lends her creative vision across multiple mediums, showcasing her appreciation for the beauty of design throughout unique spaces.

Q&A hosted by Meryn Hayes and Ashley Targonski.

Read time: 15min

Meryn Hayes:

Amanda, welcome. For those who don't know you, I'd love it if you could give a quick intro and how you got into motion design.

Amanda Godreau:

I got into motion design completely by accident, which is something that I always love to tell people. I think once you're in it, you really start to see that it's everywhere. I went to college originally for coding and then transferred to college in Florida for graphic design, and they just so happened to have one of the best motion design programs there. And a really talented professor found me, and said, "You need to change careers."

I was like, "All right." And it was just, it's been a whirlwind since. I feel like every single year I've learned something really different.

Meryn Hayes:

I think many people can relate to finding their way into this industry. I think this industry gets people from all kinds of career backgrounds, which I think is one of the really unique things about it.

Amanda Godreau:

I completely agree. I think throwing out the plan has been such a good thing for me. I think even as of six months ago, what I had planned just completely flipped. And I think learning to embrace it has only been to my benefit. It's been to the benefit of people around me, and I think it should be discussed more. I don't think you can plan for most things in life.

Meryn Hayes:

Absolutely. Well, that leads really nicely into my next question; so you graduated about a year ago, right? Did you have a lot of expectations of what was going to happen after graduation? I mean, what was the plan?

Amanda Godreau:

I feel like I wasn't entirely sure what I wanted to do when I graduated. To be completely honest, I didn't even know if I wanted to continue in the same field. I was heavily considering shifting to another industry altogether. And I knew the one thing in my plan was to rest. I came out of art school extremely burnt out. And that's something that needs to be talked about more. There’s something that TJ touched on last time at Dash Bash, I remember being a student watching his panel, and that it was a very big moment for me. I remember thinking "Someone who has been in this industry for so long is acknowledging it, I need to pivot and think about how to build rest to what I'm doing."

That was the plan post-grad, was to rest, and recharge because I knew that the aftermath of being so heavily focused on my career. To be able even to say you have a career in college is crazy, right? I realized I needed to allow myself time to be a 20-year-old in my early twenties, and as a result that’s been really beneficial to my career as well, I think.

Meryn Hayes:

That's so important because as we all know, finding inspiration in your art, in your work has to happen outside of your computer, outside of your desk. Being inspired by things, having a life, and especially at a young age. Feeling like you have the freedom and ability to find who you are because at that age you're still figuring out, "Who am I?" I mean, I'm still figuring out who I am. You need space in your life and to not have everything planned out in such a way that it constricts you from figuring out who that is before you really even started.

Amanda Godreau:

Yeah. And that's all to the benefit of the art. I feel like the moments where I had the hardest time making art, creating art, and making art that I was proud of were the moments where I was pushing myself so much that I had nowhere to draw from. If you're not connected to yourself first, you can't make something that's supposed to connect with others. So, I laid aside any professional aspirations I had. Including what studios I wanted to work with and what I wanted to do. I laid it to bed five to six months after graduating because I realized that even if I could do it, I was really going to enjoy doing it. And ultimately, I feel like enjoying the art you're making and your work is the top priority.

Meryn Hayes:

Yeah, absolutely. And in terms of finding your style and what brings you joy and the work that you do after graduation, what was your approach to finding that?

Amanda Godreau:

Finding the work that I enjoy making, I think, for me, has had to do with connecting with so many different people and so many different types of artists. My number one goal this year was to chat with people, learn, and view outside of my lived experience. And that inspired me to make many choices in how I approach my art. I was really fortunate last year. I got to go to Portugal for NFC Portugal. It was just this gigantic NFT conference, no motion designers, I think I was the only of the few ones there.

Even though personally I'm not active in the NFT community, I got to chat with people who are so invested in it, and at the end of the day, everyone's making art, right? Connecting with just people as artists outside of a commercial or traditional background has been so valuable.

Something I started to do as well was to connect with smaller BIPOC and female-owned brands, and I've been working one-on-one with a couple, developing renders pro bono, and just making art with women that I connect with. And that's been a really good way for me to give back, push my creative vision forward, and also feel like I'm doing meaningful work that serves an ethical but also spiritual purpose for me. And that's been really good.

Meryn Hayes:

That's amazing. How were you making those connections with artists after graduation?

Amanda Godreau:

I was chronically online in undergrad; a lot of these connections were friends or people that I had connected with during this time when everyone was online because of the pandemic. I've gotten to travel so much and be like, "Oh my God, we've known each other for four years; we've never met, let's hang out," And that's led to even more connections and more people. And I feel like it's snowballed into this gigantic network of people that I feel like I've known for years, and also simultaneously feel like I don't know it all.

Meryn Hayes:

I think that's one of the things that I am just so appreciative about this industry and this community is that willingness to just chat. I mean, my background is in photography. I ended up here because I found myself at a marketing agency here in Raleigh, which is where I met Mack and Cory who founded Dash. But before I joined, I had been involved in animation and live-action projects, but this whole motion community was completely over my head. And so, as soon as I joined, I just realized how kind everyone was and willing to share their experiences, which I just feel is pretty rare in most industries, but especially in art. I just can't imagine photographers, I don't know, sharing their problems or I just think it's a really special place to be able to find that.

Amanda Godreau:

I agree. I think this community is extremely generous. I think this community overall is extremely humble and I think it's really open. I think there's a lot of room for people to grow in all sorts of directions and I feel like you can almost always find someone to relate to in at least some sense. And everyone's cheerleaders for each other. I don't think, at least the people I intentionally try to connect with and stay in touch with, I feel like everyone's so proud of each other at the end of the day, not just for professional reasons, but for artistic reasons, right?

Something I've tried to make a very different distinction this year is the difference between being a designer and being an artist. I think before this year, I would be a designer and people would ask me, "What's your style?" And I'd respond by saying, "I don't have a style. I follow a brief. I'm a designer, I'm a problem solver." This year I'm getting to explore an artistic side of myself and acknowledging that side, I wasn't open to it at the time, and just starting to understand the difference has been a really big conversation among a lot of people in the community. I think it’s been a really great one.

Meryn Hayes:

Absolutely. I mean, again, going back to your whole life, you're given briefs in college and growing up, about who you're supposed to be or what you're supposed to be doing. And so, for the first time, you're actually trying to figure out, "Who am I?" Both personally and artistically. So, really giving yourself that space on both sides of that coin is just so important.

Amanda Godreau:

Yeah, I agree.

Meryn Hayes:

So, timeline here, so you were in the middle of college when the pandemic started?

Amanda Godreau:

Yeah, I was in my sophomore year. I had done one year in person, at that point II had done one semester of After Effects and one semester of Cinema 4D when then the whole world shut down. That was completely unexpected.

Meryn Hayes:

Yeah. And so, how do you feel, I mean, it's all you've known, so hard to compare, but how do you feel that changed your trajectory of what you were learning or how you were learning or learning from other students?

Amanda Godreau:

I think it completely changed the trajectory of my career for sure. I think as for socially, I don't think it left me with much of a college experience or much ability to connect with other people, but that's a completely different topic in itself. I think what that period of online learning gave me was my career. I started freelancing full-time after my second internship. I completely attribute that to the amazing opportunity that Gunner gave me. They hired me as their intern that summer. I wrote them this very dorky email being like, "I really want to work with you guys, and I can work remotely. I'm super good at it, I promise.

I was able to freelance every single year after that. I think about my choice of going freelance after college versus taking a staff job often.

Had there been more in-person opportunities to be in a studio with people collaborating, looking over monitors, going staff would've been more of a consideration for me. But at the end of the day, when I graduated, everything was still Zoom-oriented. I felt most comfortable staying freelance and meeting new people and teams.

Meryn Hayes:

Yeah, that's really interesting. We were down at SCAD at CoMotion back in March and talking to students who are about to graduate and obviously, there's a lot of opportunities going in staff or freelance and trying to give them some advice about options. And I always like to be very clear that I only have ever done 9-5 staff jobs, agency jobs, or in-house. So, I don't have the freelance perspective of freedoms, so I can only offer it slightly one-sided, and I hate to sound like Boomery, but I just know that early in my career I learned so much by sitting at a desk next to somebody just looking at asking questions, looking at their screen.

And so, part of me just feels for students who are graduating who don't have opportunities like that, or like you said, even now a lot of staff jobs are remote or hybrid and that's like, "Why am I going to go into the studio to then remote into somebody in Wisconsin or California?" And so, just finding out what people want to get out of that first experience after college and trying to find whether that's freelance or staff.

Amanda Godreau:

I think the industry, in general, is going to find itself with a very different type of workforce because of this, I personally have the opinion that it ripples down 100%. You have people two years before me, so many people who graduated in 2020. The industry was so focused on just how to switch and not lose these giant pitches and how we work, which fair, needed to happen but left a gigantic question mark on how students and upcoming graduates view the industry.

Meryn Hayes:

Good leading question. I was going to go, "How, Amanda, do you fix it?" But you're going to tell us in at the Bash.

Amanda Godreau:

Going back to Ringling in March. I found a lot of good insight. I did this amazing long two-day portfolio review with Doug Alberts from Noodle, and we got to talk one-on-one to students, and I really asked them, "How do you feel about this community? How well do you feel about jobs? What's your experience? Do you feel prepared as a senior?" And I got to get all this amazing feedback that I think is really informing how I'm trying to shape this presentation.

I had an existential crisis when you guys asked me to speak because I was like, "How am I supposed to speak to a room of people who have decades of experience over me?" I think my art is awesome, I'm my art's number one cheerleader, but we're in this very interesting time where there's so much more conversation to have about what we can do to support the youngest people in our industry and how that is essential for the better of everyone. That's what I'm interested in right now.

Meryn Hayes:

I mean, well, now I feel bad that we caused an existential crisis.

Amanda Godreau:

No, it was a good one.

Meryn Hayes:

Okay, good. But I think we would be remiss to not think about the younger generation. I mean, there's two schools of thought that we need to figure out how people retire in this industry. That's a whole other thing. But on the other side of that coin is figuring out what has changed in the last two, three, four decades as people have come into this industry. And hearing from people like you or others who are just getting into it. I mean, you have a valuable perspective, and if we don't account for both sides of that coin... We need to figure out how to include all of those ideas.

Amanda Godreau:

Yeah.

Ashley Targonski:

I think what's great about what you're talking about is it's a perspective that not a lot of our other speakers have because they have been in the industry for a while. So, hearing from someone who is newer in the industry, you've gone through all of this, I think it's going to be so interesting to hear you talk about that. And I think that's one of the main reasons we're doing this conference is to have real talks about the industry and really dive into these topics that you wouldn't normally hear.

Amanda Godreau:

I really struggled with figuring out what to talk about because, ideally a presentation, a 40, 50-minute presentation about my work would be amazing. But if I have faith in myself that I'm going to have a very long and probably great career, there's going to be so many more opportunities for me to do that. I think right now, we have a gigantic young workforce that really needs their voice to be heard. Even though this is just my perspective and my interpretation, hopefully, it's a great starting point to get the conversation going. That's my goal.

Meryn Hayes:

Yeah, I love that. Getting back into some of the work, what was it? So, you started doing graphic design when you switched to Ringling, and then a professor pulled you into animation, and pretty immediately, you headed to the 3D space?

Amanda Godreau:

No, I think we did 3D in our second year. So, the year that the world shut down in the spring, we took one introductory 3D class that was mandatory. I didn't even know 3D existed. I just fell into the course, and I was like, "Oh, this is so amazing."

Apart from coding, I was really invested in photography. When I started using 3D and Cinema- 4D, it felt natural. I could understand light, and the physics of it because I'd had to think about strobes, posing, etc. It felt a lot more familiar to me than traditional After Effects animation. I've always considered myself a designer, and I felt like there were infinitely more possibilities for me to design in a 3D space than a two-dimensional one without having also to animate. Animating is cool, it's just not my first love.

Meryn Hayes:

I love that. And I mean, it definitely seems like a natural progression of where your interests and your skills lie. And so, heading into a 3D direction, how have you been able to find clients as you started freelancing?

Amanda Godreau:

I’ve been really fortunate to have had an amazing and generous network that got me up an running while I was in school. It was a very, I think, organic thing. Post grad I’ve enjoyed collaborating with the small businesses that I've been working with independently and that’s been a different experience. It’s a very meticulous, and consistent effort. I have this gigantic spreadsheet, and I did so much outreach trying not to sound like a spam email, essentially me being like, "Hey, work with me. I won't charge you or I'll charge you pennies." And they're like, "This isn't real."

I think I get a lot of young people who are still in college or while I was in college and they're like, "Would you recommend me going freelance?" And I would always say, "Absolutely not unless you have a big network of friends and colleagues” it’s a risky career move that requires you to be savvy not just creatively but financially.

Meryn Hayes:

Yeah, absolutely. Well, that's why I got to think, again, as someone who hasn't freelanced, that just so much of it is about the connections you make. And so, going freelance right out of college to be really successful has to be a challenge. And the amount of connections that it takes and the outreach and the upkeep, I mean, those are just things that they weren't teaching when I went to college. And I just have to think a part of, as you say, as things shift with this new generation, how we teach them has to change too. It's not as it was in the olden days.

I was just telling Ashley earlier today we got a request from a client we've never worked with. It was a recommendation from some Mographers that I talked to literally three years ago. I haven't spoken with them since or really kept up a lot and they just must have mentioned our name to this client and here we are. And so, it just goes to show that those connections and that, they really matter and making a good impression and just reminding yourself that stuff might not immediately turn into a project or a relationship, but three years down the line it might, you never know.

Amanda Godreau:

Yeah, that's literally what I try to remind people. And I also try to remind people that I had a very non-traditional experience. I didn't just go to art school, I went to NYU for coding, before NYU I had a little bit of a stint in a university in Puerto Rico which got interrupted by the gigantic hurricane that we got hit with. That’s what brought me to the US in the first place. Before then, I was always really interested in spreadsheets and finances and business. I assisted wedding photographers for five years from middle school to high school. So, I was really used to working with people who owned their own businesses, doing a lot of the upkeep, the follow-up. I almost feel like the creative side has been the easiest in my freelance journey.

There's so many things that are just soft skills that go hand in hand with freelancing. I almost feel like I fell into it.

Meryn Hayes:

Well, it sounds like, again, you worked really hard, but a lot of the disparate skills all connected to make this a really useful tool for you as you started. I mean, that's something that Ashley and I, producing is just a whole set of soft skills and something that if you go out freelancing without having been in-house or at an agency, you're essentially your own producer as well. And there's a reason why we exist. It's a whole job outside of the creative and not being exposed to what that entails I think sometimes causes people to start freelancing and then they think they're a failure of not being successful when they just haven't set themselves up to be successful because they didn't know it existed. You know? Don't know what you don't know.

Amanda Godreau:

Yeah, exactly. Producing is a whole other thing. I actually considered doing a production internship after graduating because I'm so interested in it. But again, I feel like that's just where my interest lies. Production to me is as interesting as creating and I don't think that's a very popular opinion. I might be wrong.

Meryn Hayes:

We love hearing it, we love to hear that.

Amanda Godreau:

Yeah! Many of my good friends are producers. I strongly believe that the success of a creative project is dependent on the work that goes before you even start thinking about what it looks like. And I think that's pretty cool of you guys.

Ashley Targonski:

Looking at your growth path, I thought it was really interesting that you had a talk with Maxon in 2021 when you were still in school. You've also won their Rookie Award. So, I wanted to see how that journey and experience because you were so new at the Cinema 4D program, but then you're talking about it just seeing it a year later, which is amazing.

Amanda Godreau:

Yeah, I feel like all my experiences have been so surreal. When Maxon reached out asking me to present at their 3D Show I was like, "Are you aware that I've been using this program for under a year?" At that point.

I think I've had to constantly reinforce that I’m deserving of the opportunities that come my way. Imposter syndrome is so real. Sarah Beth did an amazing talk at the Bash last time. I think perspective is the most important thing we can have. I think my art is awesome and while I might not be the most technically experienced person in the room, I have such a passion for design, I feel like I'm very methodical in the ways that I do and that has inherent value…

It really resonated with me when you mentioned about how you appreciated the topic of which I'm speaking on about at Dash this year because it's something that compared to the rest of the lineup of the speaker, is very unique to my experience. I feel like that's how I've approached my career in general because although this is a very young industry and figuring out how people are even going to retire in this industry is a big question mark, looking at what I can give, being like, "Okay, I'm this person in this room, what can I do to not just be of use for myself, but to others?"

Ashley Targonski:

I really love that. And just I think you understand that while you're still in college and it's something that you're living by even today as you continue to grow as an artist, that's really cool because in college I was like, "I don't know what I'm doing." I'm just going with the flow.

Amanda Godreau:

No one knows. Yeah, I think it's so powerful and it's if you don't learn how to do that, especially as women, especially as a Black woman, it's so easy to undervalue yourself. "Oh, I'm not the smartest. Oh, I don't have the most years of experience. Oh, I've never done this before." I think shaping your perspective is vital to existing in this industry as someone who's not typically what you think of when you think of a CG designer.

Meryn Hayes:

That is so important. I mean, I think nobody knows what they're doing and when you figure that out, it helps a whole hell of a lot. I think as women we've spent way too much time doubting ourselves and trying to find space where normally you would be in that place of self-doubt.

Think about all the other things, all of the other time we would have, if we weren't doubting ourselves for every second of every day or every move, or how do we sound in X email? I mean, I have had to do a whole heck of a lot of unlearning to ignore those instincts. When you get in moments of self-doubt like that, where do you go? What's your headspace? How do you combat that?

Amanda Godreau:

I think I just remind myself that my career isn't that important. And I know that sounds counterproductive, but coming from a different culture where work isn't seen as the number one thing you strive for has been a huge factor. I've only lived stateside for four and a half years, and I think people forget that because they don't hear an accent.

In devaluing the amount of importance that I place on my career previously, I’ve been able to shift my headspace to, "I'm going to show up because I want to, not because I have to." At least for me, that’s flipped my mindset into being able to set better boundaries with myself and others work-wise and personally. I also have put a lot of importance into making friends with people who have nothing to do with the creative world. I have friends who are engineers and city planners, etc. Being around people who can separate my creative value from my personal value, especially this year has made the biggest difference.

It’s made me realize the importance of separating your own self-worth to what other people creatively think about you or as a professional. That's been really important.

Meryn Hayes:

Yeah, that's a good point. It's like we're so ingrained in our little bubble that it's a good reminder that a whole world, a whole lot of worlds exist outside of the Mograph community. And again, going back to how the world inspires art, talking with people outside of the community and talking with people in different disciplines, all of that is stuff that can give you an idea or inspire you in ways you weren't expecting. And also, it's just nice to meet people who are not the same as you.

Amanda Godreau:

Yeah, it's so much easier. Like, can we talk about how successful everyone in this industry is? No matter what they do. I remember last year being a senior or graduating and being like, "Oh my God, I'm so behind." I used to be so hard on myself.

It's not until I started hanging out with other people in their early twenties in other career paths, that I got a really healthy dose of, "You need to get some perspective." Because it can be really deceptive to be surrounded by, studio owners, successful freelancers, art directors, and NFT artists who all are financially doing so well.

It’s easy to forget what you do have, and what you should be grateful for. It's been so helpful for me to just sit down and be like, "You're losing perspective. You have ownership of your own time. You set your own salary. You get to pick and choose and say yes and no to work opportunities. And that's not something that most people ever get to do, period."

Meryn Hayes:

Well, I hope everyone comes to the Bash for many reasons, but I hope that that is one thing that people can take away from the Bash. I mean, back in 2021, I just feel like the honesty and the stories we got from our speakers last time were in comparison to all conferences or design festivals. It wasn't just get up there and talk about your work for 45 minutes and, "Oh, I worked with Nike and Google, and look how successful I am." But it's, "Here's why this was a challenge. Here's where I thought my career was over and then I started something new." Or fuck hustle, what TJ said, so having those honest conversations because everything's bright and shiny and if we all look successful, that's great.

But then for students who are just starting, or people just entering the industry, not even just students. You automatically feel like a failure if you're not an award-winning studio owner or you sold an NFT for a bajillion dollars. And so, that imposter syndrome is easy to walk into because you just walk into the industry doubting yourself.

Amanda Godreau:

Yeah, it's so bad. And like Ashley mentioned I was doing the Maxon 3D show. I won the Rookie Award. I graduated I got to have my work in Beeple’s studio opening in North Carolina. I remember that last experience so well because I felt like I couldn't look at my own work on a screen.

I felt like a complete imposter. I was like, "This isn't real.” "I don't want to look at my work." And I had to seriously sit myself down that night and be like, "What's going on? Am I the only one that feels this way? Why do I feel this way?" It’s so easy to think people don’t feel that way about their own work when you’re just experiencing them through social media. I’ve had students come up to me and say "I don't feel great, and I have to feel great to be able to do what you do." And I'm like, "The secret is I'm still learning how to feel great about it." I'm still learning how to accept it, how to not minimize my hard work, how to not just say, "It fell into my lap, or it was just luck."

And acknowledge that there were so many hours put in, so much burnout that happened. Giving yourself credit for the things you’ve accomplished is definitely something that’s been a learned skill. Despite how I might feel sometimes, I can often acknowledge that you can hold two truths at the same time.

Meryn Hayes:

Yeah, I mean, even in this conversation, you said that everything fell into your lap, but you worked really hard and then the right opportunity came along. Those two things, those truths can be true.

Amanda Godreau:

Exactly. I have to catch myself all the time.

Ashley Targonski:

I think that's something I've had to also deal with a lot is imposter syndrome. And I was managing teams and I was still like, "Why are they asking me to do stuff? Because I don't know what I'm doing." And I obviously did. But I think a large thing that you're saying that I really think is great is you are meeting all these people, you're creating opportunities for yourself to have more opportunities in the future. So, just taking every chance you have to be able to have another opportunity later. I think that's so important for when you're young, but then also as you continue to grow throughout your career.

Amanda Godreau:

Yeah, I mean, it reminds me of why I do what I do. Yesterday I had this amazing call with the founder of a brand. She founded a brand for this luxury fragrance spray. They've won all these awards. The founder is also Black and she's manufacturing this in the Bronx which is amazing. When I saw her brand I immediately messaged her, and I was like, "Oh my God, I love your perfume. Can I please work with you? You don't have to pay me. Can I just please help support this vision?" And I got a call with her yesterday, and she's said, "You don't know how hard I've looked for a creative that understands my perspective." "I looked everywhere. I couldn't find anyone." "How do you find other people creatives like you?"

And I remember telling her, "I don't know. I don't really know anyone like me."

That's a conversation I've had so many times. I think even last year, Meryn, when I was on Sarah Beth's Motion Coven podcast, I mentioned the number of times I get on a call where I'm the only woman there, and it’s assumed I'm the producer instead of a 3D designer."

I always ask people, "Hey, does anyone ever know another Black female 3D artist?” Looking at how big our industry is, I can't find someone who looks like me in the same feild. I don’t think that's something that everyone who does have that privilege is entirely conscious of.

Motion Design feels like a family to so many folks in it, or at least that’s a sentiment I’ve heard enough to remember. But it has to feel like that for more than a homogenous group. There was a very visible push for DEI initiatives around 2020 and George Floyd’s murder but efforts have become less and less public as time has passed.

Meryn Hayes:

Well, A, I'll see those people out personally. I think it's also how we move forward holistically for a sustained period of time. Like you said that there was this big push after George Floyd's murder. Everyone posted on social media and talked about bringing in more diverse groups and finding freelancers in communities that weren't of their own. But that push has to continue and be sustained across the entire industry. It's hard to push a rock up a hill if you're just by yourself, right? It has to be the community. And so, obviously, that's something that we've talked a lot about internally.

And I was, back in March, in CoMotion, we had a diversity and equity panel. We were talking and someone in the audience asked how we felt about the industry moving ahead, looking ahead. And I think the thing that boggles my mind is looking at the crowd at CoMotion, looking at Ringling, the minority of people in that group was white men by far. There were more women in the audience at CoMotion, and most of them were not white. And so, I have hopes looking ahead that the opportunities that people are given now, finding communities, like the animation industry can happen at earlier ages, right? In college. But the barriers of cost and equipment and finding places like SCAD or Ringling, I mean, that's a huge investment that communities don't have the opportunity to find.

Amanda Godreau:

I also think that looking at colleges specifically, art colleges, student bodies aren't the best way to project what the industry is going to look like. I think that while it's great to have hope in what student bodies look like, that's not going to change until the people doing the hiring have more knowledge, and perspective to be able to acknowledge what our biases are.

You have to acknowledge it in order to move past it. It might not seem like an issue to most people, because in theory your race, gender, or identity has nothing to do with the technical aspects and ability of doing a job. However, it leaves a gigantic void for mentorship. I want to be an art director, ideally a creative director, at some point in my career but I can't point to what that looks like for a Black woman. I can't ask anyone for advice and be like, "As a Black woman, how did you navigate x, y z to become a creative director?" There's no one that I know of for me to ask. And I've asked. I've asked every single time I'm on a call with a studio, when they ask, "Do you have any questions?" My question is, "Do you know any Black women AD’s, CDs?" I'm actively asking.

Even if I am here moving through my career, the road to success for these career paths is inherently absent.

Meryn Hayes:

Insane.

Ashley Targonski:

This ties into something we talked to Macaela from Newfangled about, but they have created a DIB section of their company. And when they work on projects, they find people in those communities who actually work on those projects and understand. They do the research; they talk to them about their experiences. And I think that's so integral to... That's what everyone should be doing. We should really be understanding, we shouldn't have this person on this project that doesn't know anything about what we're doing. Let's talk to the communities. Yeah.

Amanda Godreau:

I also think that leads to a really good opportunity to talk about possible jobs in this industry that don't exist in this industry. Because listen, I can say all day that my information is in my bio, on my website. But the truth is, producers are often also super overworked. You can't expect them to be reading the bio of every single artist that they're reaching out to. It's impossible.

I feel like that's a huge opportunity in motion design that could lead to even more jobs and a more diverse workforce. Producers do so much, they keep track of so many things.

Meryn Hayes:

I was also just re-reading Bien’s blog post for their Q&A, and they were talking about Double the Line efforts. Do you know about that program?

Amanda Godreau:

I don't!

Meryn Hayes:

It comes from the Association of Independent Producers (AICP, essentially for every job they have, they create a second line item in the budget for whatever it is, cel animation or illustration, to bring on an underrepresented minority group. So, a Black cel artist to pair with a senior cel artist so that they get opportunities to work on a project or on a client work that otherwise they wouldn't get. And then they have that as an opportunity to show on their portfolio, like, "Hey, I did this."

And so, bringing people into positions that they previously wouldn't have an opportunity because they don't have the connections yet. We talked about how important those connections are early on in finding jobs or careers.

Amanda Godreau:

That's amazing. I think that's an amazing thing for a studio to be doing. Going back to the conversation about SCAD and Ringling, I think that also has to be part of the conversation is that while it might be really convenient for studios to hire out of Ringling and SCAD because it's the standard, and you do come out industry ready. I think there are a lot of colleges and programs that are also overlooked that might have equally as amazing talent.

Last year I went to speak to the students at CUNY in Brooklyn. To my surprise when I arrived, I realized that not only was the professor Black, but so was the entire student body. Not only that but mostly black women. This was a Cinema 4D class.

I think that's the only time in my career where I've been in a room full of people who looked like me. I felt really conflicted when I left because they were there, talented, and learning with such amazing questions, and I couldn’t give them advice that was relevant to their experience. I had a huge leg up with going to a private art institution.

I carry some privileges. I feel very conflicted when I’m used as an example for someone who is a minority who’s moving through our industry. I often feel like the worst example. I went to a very expensive art school. I so happened to have my own business in high school that paid for a huge chunk of my college education. I come from a family of academics and had little to no barrier for entry when applying for college." While my experience has value, merit and includes a lot of hard work. No one should be used as a rule for "If they did it, why can’t you?"

Meryn Hayes:

Yeah, yeah. I think that's a good reminder. Just like you said that again, it's setting people up for failure, right? When you don't see all of those privileges that you know you've had and that I know I've had, and other people have had. You don't see that. And when you compare yourself to someone else, "Amanda did it, why aren't you doing it?"

Amanda Godreau:

Yeah.

Meryn Hayes:

Thank you. We're just so glad to have you come in and really can't thank you enough for participating, being willing, and we're looking forward to your talk!

Amanda Godreau:

I'm so excited. This is my favorite conference.

Ashley Targonski:

Can we quote you on that?

Amanda Godreau:

Yeah, totally.

Meryn Hayes:

It's going to be the Bash, the homepage. It's going to be a huge quote. Amanda says...”MY FAVORITE CONFERENCE”

Meryn Hayes:

Cool. Good chatting, Amanda. We'll see you soon!

Mack Garrison 7/7/23 Mack Garrison 7/7/23

Meet the speakers: Wes Louis

An interview with Wes Louis: a director, designer, and animator at The Line known for his unique design sensibility and his dramatic action-led animation sequences.

Q&A hosted by Mack Garrison.

Read time: 15min

Mack Garrison:

Wesley, I'm really pumped for this conversation because, well, one, if you don't know this already, you guys do phenomenal work. I mean, the cel work you guys produce, just really top tier, top quality.

Wes Louis:

Thank you, man, I appreciate that.

Mack Garrison:

I was talking to Dotti over at Golden Wolf, because she was at the Bash last time. She spoke on behalf of Golden Wolf there. She was talking about how highly she thinks of you guys and that for a long time you kept winning and losing to each other on pitches. It was just always you guys going back and forth.

Wes Louis:

Yeah, that is exactly right. They would do something and then we would do something, and they would do something but it feels kind of healthy. It's strange to say, because you think to yourself, "Well, I mean they are a rival company," but actually we have quite a good relationship with them. Anytime they have their summer parties or other events, they invite us over. We have a good laugh and a few drinks, so it's a healthy competitive space.

Mack Garrison:

I remember getting out of school and being so green in this space, not knowing anything, but how many people were willing to help me. Even growing from junior up to senior as an animator, and then again, starting the studio, and how people were just willing to share advice. I've never met a space that feels as communal as the motion design space really is.

Wes Louis:

I just think it’s what makes the space a better place to work in. No one's holding their cards too close to their chest. It's weird, because intuitively you’d think keeping what's unique about you secret would be the way to go but, the opposite has benefits. One of our other directors, Sam, always talks to guys from Animade or Moth Collective about all sorts. We all go to the same festivals, hang out and talk. "Well how did you do that or show the best way to do this?" it's a weird but nice little community we have

Mack Garrison:

It feels different, because I feel like it's not like that in the rest of the creative space. Even agencies, I know agencies are kind of cutthroat with each other, but studios, for whatever reason, it's not. I think it's because, as a studio owner, I feel like people start studios because they really love a singular craft.

Wes Louis:

Yeah, exactly, you're coming from the same place. And I think with us specifically, because all the directors of the company, we're all animators or compositors, we all come from creative backgrounds. I think we just have more of an understanding of people that work with us as well. So we understand burnout, we understand what it feels like not to want to work on something that maybe you're not feeling inspired by.

Mack Garrison:

So I run Dash with a business partner. We were both animators back in the day. We animated for basically a decade before trying our hand at running a shop and I think there's a difference. When leadership knows how to animate, you don't put your team in bad situations. Even just understanding what's reasonable, what's not, what's a hard request, what's not, and to be able to talk through that. I think you get into trouble when it gets too much on the business-oriented side of things.

Wes Louis:

Definitely. We worked on a Gorillaz music video with Jamie Hewlett. The turnaround for that, I think it was something ridiculous, six or eight weeks, and we did it because, I mean, it's the Gorillaz….

Mack Garrison:

This is the Humility piece, right?

Wes Louis:

Yeah.

Mack Garrison:

That you did that in 6 weeks. That's ridiculous.

Wes Louis:

Yeah, it was crazy. It was like a six-week turnaround to get everything done. Max and Tim were directing it. Tim's a massive Jamie Hewlett fan, so that's like a dream come true project just landing on his plate. We took the job, but I think everybody, including the directors, worked so hard on it. They were working late, working until 10 o'clock at night and all that kinds. We really understood what our staff was going through and I think they appreciated that we acknowledged that we were pushing them to the limit, but then we also said, "We're never doing that again," because you're breaking the people that are working for you. So while The project gave the studio a lot of street cred, it also made us really examine our working practices because the people who work for us are important. I mean animation is hard enough as it is without you having to come home after hours every night and you're not spending time with your friends and family. So you want to try and find a balance. I mean, sometimes it happens where a crunch happens and you have to stay a bit later, but I think nine times out of 10 it's definitely more of an exception than a rule. Whereas I know some companies are like, "No, you've got to work on the weekend and you've got to work on this, you've got to work that." We try not to do that.

Mack Garrison:

A hundred percent. We feel the same way. And I think part of it was also that self-reflection after the pandemic where priorities just totally switched for people. It's like, "Look, this is just a job." We like it, I love animation, but there's stuff outside of it. We all have stuff outside of it, right?

Mack Garrison:

I want to get back into some of the stuff you guys are doing at Line, because like I said, it's phenomenal. But maybe take me back to the beginning.

Wes Louis:

Yeah, so my family's Caribbean, St. Lucian. My parents were born over there. But I was born and raised here in London. As a child I was always into animation, just generally, Saturday morning cartoons, anime shows. I'd always been drawn well. I've been drawing since I was five-years-old... and never really put it down. So it was something that I think people thought it would just be a hobby that went away, and it never did. I was doing anything that could probably lead me into comics or animation, any excuse to draw. Graphic design was the closest thing I could find to do that. And even on graphic design projects, I was always trying to do some sort of character design or animation orientated thing. But yeah, I studied multimedia for a bit and I dropped out of that because I just wasn't happy doing the course, so I spent a few years working in retail and doing office work and all this stuff. And I think it was like 27, that I just asked myself the question, "If money and logistics weren't a factor, what would I be doing?" And animation just kept coming back, so I kind of worked my way backwards and just started saving for it and doing odd jobs so I can save money, so I could take a year or two off just so I can do a course in animation.

Mack Garrison:

So you did graphic design, you kind of dropped out of the multimedia side because you weren't vibing with it as much. You wanted to get more into the traditional, kind of cel animation. Is that what was drawing your interest mainly?

Wes Louis:

Yeah that's what it is. Even when I was doing retail, I remember I was working in a store called Hamleys, it's like a toy store, a big toy store in London on Regent Street. And I remember they would ask me to do graphic design things every now and then, but I was working behind the tills. And I remember applying for a job in the display department, where they would decorate displays and all that kind of stuff. And I thought, "Yeah, this would be perfect." And it's funny, the head of display, showed him my CV, showed my work. He is like, "Yeah, you're amazing," all this kind stuff. He's like, "But I'm not going to give you a job." I was like, "Why?" "Because you're too good for here." I was like, "Why?. He is like, "If you want to go and work in this, then get off your ass and go and find somewhere to work, but I'm not giving you a job here." And he refused to give me a job.

Mack Garrison:

Wow.

Wes Louis:

Yeah. There was also a point where I tried to go full-time in Hamleys, because I was working three or four days a week, and my manager at the time refused to give me a job. She refused to let me work full-time. I was like, "What's going on?" She goes, "Oh, I see you..." Because I would do a lot of doodles on till receipt paper while I'm waiting for customers. I've still got loads of them at home. She was like, "I always see you drawing on these receipts and you're just sitting here." And she goes, "Why aren't you going out and looking for real work in what you love?" I didn't really have a proper answer for her, because I was quite young at the time. But she's like, "Look, I'm not giving you a job here." She goes, "If you want to work a few days a week, that's fine, I can't stop you but don't try and apply for any other department, because if you try and apply, I'm going to tell them not to hire you."

Mack Garrison:

No way.

Wes Louis:

They just literally would not let me work full time there.

Mack Garrison:

That's so crazy. It's that early confidence push and kind of validation that what you're doing, what you're creating means something.

Wes Louis:

I think that's what it was. I actually did reach out to her (Her name is Julia) just to tell her thank you for doing that, pushing me. So I think from then I just went into work with more of a focus. I made a decision to become an animator and spent time working and saving up for a Postgraduate animation course at Central Saint Martins in London. It's funny, because when I went to visit the college they'd had the end of year show, and for some reason, that year it was incredible. So I worked so hard to get on that course, man, believing I wasn't good enough to get on the course. I was doing life drawing classes every weekend. I think I was doing it twice a week. And I went on to an art exchange program in Prague with conceptart.org, hosted by a company called Massive Black.

Mack Garrison:

Well it had to be good validation for you on this career path too, because I know when you find something you're really into, you get into this flow state where it's not work anymore. It's all this stuff that you're trying to get better at and it's hard, but it's fun. You're excited, you want to jump in and just learn as much as you can. It's a totally different vibe versus if you're in something you're not digging.

Wes Louis:

Oh, I think that's 100% true. And I could even point to projects I've done where I know the flow state versus not being in a flow state, for sure.

I did a lot of work to get on the course. I even visited the university a couple of times to speak to the head lecturer just to talk. "Ah," he goes, "you again." So I would go up there, spend about 20 minutes with him, keep in mind I lived an hour away from the university at the time. I'm showing him my sketchbook just asking questions “is this good? Do I need to draw more of this?” It really was an excuse to be in that environment with lightboxes and students flippings animation paper. It was the closest thing to an animation studio I'd ever been in and I loved it. By the time I had my interview he was just like, "All right, well let's see how we can get rid of you then." But he was joking, very British humor. He said, "Your portfolio is incredible. What took you so long," sort of thing. So he was like, "Of course we want you on the course.

Mack Garrison:

Right.

Wes Louis:

I had worked so hard to get on the course, because I just thought I wasn't good enough so I didn't take it for granted. I studied for a year. That's where I met Tim McCourt, who was on the same course as me. After the course finished, I spent about six months trying to finish my thesis film, which I didn't.

Mack Garrison:

That's great.

Wes Louis:

I really tried to finish. I thought there was something wrong with me because it was like, "Why can't I finish this?" And I was trying to get a certain amount of quality in a certain amount of time, but I just couldn't do it. Just not realizing that, actually animation takes time and it takes a team. And I'm trying to do this, Disney level stuff by myself.

Mack Garrison:

That's a lot. That's a lot to put on your plate. So you never finished the thesis?

Wes Louis:

No, I didn't finish but I really tried. I worked on it for a few months after the course but it was so much harder trying to do it from home. About 6 months after uni,I moved to Scotland. I was working at a company called Ink Digital on this film called Illusionist, as an inbetweener cleanup artist. I even tried to finish my thesis film there, redesigned the characters and everything. Even at that point, I wasn't very confident in animation. I just couldn't understand how to do it. I remember meeting with an animator at Django Films (that was the main studio for the Illusionist where all the animation took place) She gracefully took time out to show me around and show me her work and process. Within half an hour she said and My understanding of animation completely changed. If you asked me to do my thesis film today, be it two months or three months I’d finish it. I’d know what to animate, what to cheat etc.

Mack Garrison:

What did she say to you?

Wes Louis:

I said, "So what's your breakdown?" She goes, "I don't really think about it that way, I just do the motion. And then I find a breakdown afterwards." She showed me her sketches and demonstrated her method. It just made sense. It was Aya Suzuki, actually. She's gone on to work with directors like Hayo Myazakiand she's an incredible animator. It was just a half an hour chat and it was like things clicked all of a sudden where the things that I was struggling to do weren't hard anymore, because now I understood what it was. And it was just basically her process of how she put an idea down and got the movement down. I think my problem was getting too in the weeds of it, I was trying to understand what's a breakdown, what's a key. I think those things matter when you're passing off the animation to somebody else, but when you're doing it yourself, it doesn't matter that much, you know? There might be some people that disagree with me, but that was just for me, it just made sense the way she went about it.

Mack Garrison:

Tell me about some of the projects that came after that?

Wes Louis:

So when I got back from Scotland, I met up with Tim again and we worked on our first short film together. We spent about a year doing that at a Partizan. We were very fortunate to have a space to work for free as Tim had a good relationship with one of the producers at the time. We thought it would take us three months, it took us about a year. And we got an award from the Westminster Arts Council. So they were giving out money for people to make films and stuff... so I think they gave us 4,000 pounds, which seemed like a lot at the time.

Mack Garrison:

Yeah, of course.

Wes Louis:

I mean, me and Tim weren't getting paid for it, we were doing freelance work for Partizan so we could keep on going. We learnt a lot doing that. After that I guess the project that made me more well known was Super Turbo Atomic Ninja Rabbit, I just went full steam ahead. It was a style of animation I'd never approached before. I've never done anything like it which is ironic because my love of animation really is rooted in action and anime. There was no reason for me to think I could do it except that I just wanted to so I just went ahead and tried. Also got a friend Rina May to do the music and BXFTYS on sound fx. Actually let me backup, I'm jumping around a bit. After me and Tim made our film, we went around looking for work as directors. Turns out it doesn't really work in that way. You don't just go and apply to be a director.

Mack Garrison:

Yeah, right. Like, "I'd like to work here please." And it's like, "No, thank you."

Wes Louis:

Yeah, yeah. "I'd like to work as a director." It's like, "Not really, no."

Mack Garrison:

That's great.

Wes Louis:

I did show my portfolio though and a few weeks later it was like, "Oh, yeah, we like your work we have some jobs on if you're interested. That was at Nexus in London." And I was working there freelance for about a year and Tim was doing freelance at Partizan and some other places. While Tim was on the job, he met with Sam Taylor, James Duveen and Bjorn Erik Aschim, the other partners at The Line. Sam was looking for a studio space at the time and was asking if we were interested in sharing a space, and not even as a company but just people who animate together and have a shared space while working different freelance jobs. I couldn’t really afford it at the time but we had a friend Fritzi who had a desk and she was letting me use it at the time and eventually I took over from her. While at the studio Tim got approached by some of the runners who were at Partizan who now have their own company, Bullion Productions. They got a job from the Ministry of Sound to do a music video for Mat Zo and Porter Robinson and asked if Tim and I were up for directing because they knew we made our short film at Partizan. So it was like, "Yeah, sure." And then the other guys we were sharing a space with, they were just finishing up their film Everything I can See From Here, so we were like, "Oh, if you guys aren't doing anything, we'd like to hire you to work on our project." So the six of us worked on this project together and it went so well. It was an incredible experience. We just said, "Oh, how about we start a collective, we can just consolidate our work and take it further?" That's basically when we formed The Line.

Mack Garrison:

It's perfect.

Wes Louis:

Soon after Bjorn got contacted by Electric Theatre Collective (ETC) to do some concept art and they were asking, "Do you know any animators or character designers?" He's like, "Oh, I actually know five guys."

So we went over there and we were working together for a while. They gave us some funding to make our first official The Line original projects. Amaro and Walden's Joyride and Super Turbo Atomic Ninja Rabbit. Ideas we had for a couple years. We were working on those productions simultaneously and released them a month apart, maybe two. I think that these projects gave us our notoriety. From then we just started getting commercial projects. We were at ETC for about 3 years I think but eventually ended up leaving to actually start our own studio. No hard feelings or anything, it just became harder to function the way we wanted to as directors. We thought, "Let's see if we can start our own company." I mean the options then were, to either leave and try and make some more money to build ourselves back up, and then hopefully regroup again, which probably wouldn't have happened. Or let's just go for it and start a company. So we pooled some money together, got a studio space and our first job came within 2 months and….

Mack Garrison:

The rest is history.

Wes Louis:

... five years later we've got, I think about we have roughly 40 people with us including the 6 founders.

Mack Garrison:

Man, that's crazy.

Wes Louis:

James counted about, over three or four projects, we had about 110 people working with us at one time.

Mack Garrison:

Wow. That's crazy.

Wes Louis:

Yeah, it is a bit surreal, because you're looking around and you're like- "I don't exactly know how this works but it is working, and it's great."

Mack Garrison:

Oh, no, it's really cool. So a couple of things I picked up on there, Wesley that I think is really interesting and I want to poke at a bit is, so you get out of school, you end up on this Illusionist project, you're kind of navigating the process a bit, but then it kind of starts to click. You and Tim, then after the Illusionist, work on your personal project, right. What film was that that you guys were doing?

Wes Louis:

Drawing Inspiration.

Mack Garrison:

Drawing Inspiration, that's right. So you're doing these films or this entertainment side of things and then you end up from that side into kind of the commercial space a bit from there. But I like how when you even refer to the projects you're working on, you're referring to them as films. Everything you do has this artistic lens. And I do think there's this balance in animation with art versus design, right?

Wes Louis:

Yeah.

Mack Garrison:

How did you navigate that as you got into that world and all of a sudden these projects, which I'm sure you had thoughts on, on how you want it to be, is now getting pushback from clients who are paying you for it and they want it done a certain way and you're like, "That's killing the artistic style of it." How does the artist versus designer kind of come into play for you these days?

Wes Louis:

That's a really interesting question. I mean even the short films that we made, people ask, "How do you make the time to make those films and do what you want? It's insane." And the answer is, it is insane. It sounds very cliche, but we were too stupid to know that you're not supposed to do these kinds of things. We made two short films in a year simultaneously, while trying to do freelance projects. And that's crazy, because I was working, I mean we were working weekends, evenings and stuff, and it's not an easy thing to do. But like you said, if you love what you're doing, you don't really perceive it as work, you just perceive it as this thing that you need to get done.

In terms of the commercial side, I think earlier on I would say we did get projects that you'd get weird client pushback. I remember doing a project and I literally had the clients standing behind me while I was doing a drawing.

Mack Garrison:

No! I would've quit. I would've been out.

Wes Louis:

Oh god, it was like the Apprentice. There were about three or four of them and I was drawing a face. "Oh, do this in the lips. Move it, move it. No, push it up, push it down. Make her eyes bigger. Make it smaller." And the drawing, at the end of it, I just remember sitting there thinking, "This is not going in my portfolio, this is the worst piece of work I've ever done.”

And luckily, I mean they kind of doubled back and they were like, "Oh, actually, this is not working." And then I had to redesign it from scratch and they just kind of left us to it. But actually, generally speaking, I feel like our clients have been really good. And I think that's because of the short films that we've made. And I think the thing that we realize is, if we make the things that we want to make and make it high quality, people hopefully will come to us for what we do rather than what someone else does. And I think that brings about a certain amount of trust from our client as well. So if we show them something that we've done that they're interested in. So anytime we get a pitch in, well a lot of the times they will point to other people's work, but it will always have our work in there. "Oh, when you did this on this project, this was great. We'd love more of this and stuff."

Mack Garrison:

It's almost like, concept-wise with references to other things, but stylistically it always comes back to you all. So you know you're in the right lane.

Wes Louis:

Yeah. So actually when we are doing stuff, nine times out of ten, I would say you do get satisfaction from the client work. Obviously it's not going to be 100% your way and I think there's an expectation of that. Look, someone's paying you to do this and you put your best foot forward and say, "Look, I really don't think this is a good idea because," and they do listen and then sometimes it's someone higher than the person you're talking to is like, "No, we definitely want this." "Oh, okay, that's fine." I always take our client projects as a space to learn as well.

Mack Garrison:

Sure, sure.

Wes Louis:

I'm getting paid to learn how to do something a little bit differently and apply it to my own work and to the studio as well. I mean the whole reason we started it is so that we can make our own stuff. We actually put some of our profits back into personal and development projects. We’ve actually got a few in development at the moment and one hopefully dropping late-summer.

Mack Garrison:

Perfect. That will be a perfect time to roll it in for the summer and share it on the big screen here in Raleigh.

Wes Louis:

Yeah, exactly. It's a short. Our films are quite short so typically they’re made in the style of a trailer or a music video, because to try and do anything longer can be quite difficult if you want something really long form. Doing shorts like this gives us a chance to kind of put stuff out there, our own identity and have people in the studio play around on things that they probably wouldn't normally get to do at other studios. We've actually got another director, who is the first director doing a personal project outside of the six of us.

Mack Garrison:

How does that feel? Because I do think there's something about as you progress as a studio or owner, you can't have your hand in everything. You can't always see stuff. Does it feel weird to get to this space where there's a director kind of rolling with something and you're not really sure what's going on?

Wes Louis:

It's weird. I think even just not being hands-on is a little bit frustrating for me. I got into it so I can draw and animate and I'm not drawing and animating anymore. And even people have said to me, "Oh, I don't really see your work anymore." It really is rewarding though, to see an animator go from a junior assist role to directing a project on her own project; leading a team of people, having her own voice and having the respect of all her peers supporting her, I think is amazing. I think none of us are under the illusion that we're always going to be relevant and it's nice to be able to build a space with the resources we have that can trickle down to the next generation. And they create stuff, and they do better than we ever could.

Mack Garrison:

I think, well because you look back and you look at the stuff that you've gone through and you learn about things that you really liked and the people that pushed you. Even your retail boss, don't do this, or your colleague who's like, "Think about it this way," and there's all these moments with these spaces where that's conducive. And so I think as leaders, you try to create that space at your studio. What are the things that you really wanted? What are the things that you can create an area for someone to try stuff to fail and stuff to grow and to learn? And so that's got to be a huge highlight at The Line.

Wes Louis:

Yeah, it is something that I think we speak about we're proud of. I mean, we don't always get everything right, we're still learning.

Mack Garrison:

Sure.

Wes Louis:

But I think more often than not from what people have said, unless they're lying to us, they're comfortable working or they like it, they feel supported, they feel like they've been heard and they get to put their ideas across. We've got this initiative that our development manager has put forward. So basically, we give 10 days to each person on the staff every year to just go in and play. The caveat is that it has to benefit the company in some sort of way. So it could be they go in, find a new system for production or just learn how to draw something a little bit better. Anything they want. It doesn't have to be something they present, it's just 10 days for people to go and play, because sometimes you wait for downtime to happen and sometimes there is no downtime. So it's like, all right, here's 10 days. And actually, some of the projects that we're working on now came from that. In fact, there's about three projects that have come from our exploration time where people have gone away, had 10 days to think about something that they weren't thinking about before, and then they've come back and said, "Oh, actually, I've got a great idea." It's like, "All right, let's make that, let's put some money into that so you get to have a bit of a creative outlet.

Mack Garrison:

That's cool. I love that. And I love the buy-in from folks too, because it makes people feel like they're bought into the studio. They're bringing their ideas to the table and the studio's rallying around them, which is really nice too.

Wes Louis:

I think that the thing with us is that we're like, "Oh, it would be so cool if we had this when we were coming up." We're like, "All right, well let's just do it for our staff." And it seems to be working.

Mack Garrison:

Do y'all feel good where you are now or do you want to continue to expand? Do you have any big, broader goals for the company?

Wes Louis:

It's funny you say that, because we literally are in a kind of space where we're trying to reestablish and just remember where we came from and use that to inform where we're going. So I'm from the Caribbean, as I said before, and what I've been doing is I've started this kind of program with a company in Jamaica called ListenMi, they're an animation company. And basically I just give them an hour a week or hour every two weeks of my time just sharing insight into just how animation works and helping them, in a sense, kind of level up. Because I think you've got loads of animators or aspiring animators in the Caribbean who just don't have the resources or people to teach them.

And I know I learn a lot because I've spoken to people around me and I've got access to certain things. And I guess for me personally, I would love The Line to be one of these spaces where, I don't know, it has some sort of academic program, training, and internship. And that's something that I have started trying out. I don't know where it's going to go. I feel like this is something that could take the next 10 years, it could take 20 years or something, I don't know. But I do recognize that, for instance, you've got places like Korea where the American animation was being outsourced to them and now they've just got incredible studios like Studio Mir for example. I think that's how you grow an industry. And I feel like the dream for me would be, reaching out to these places and training them up so that they can start. Eventually, we can outsource work to them and they grow and get better. And then they can start creating their own works, and then it trickles down to the schools and now you've got a thriving industry. So that's the kind of influence I would like the company to have.

Mack Garrison:

I really appreciate what you were saying on the community side. It's hard to give back when everything costs money, but one thing you can always do is time and attention. And just giving your time back to people knowing that when you were their age or that early part of your career, that that's what you really just needed is guidance. I think that's really critical. And I don't know, I know our industry is so community-focused, everyone's so nice and I think a lot of people are interested in that. And so I hope more people are doing the same thing you're talking about.

Wes Louis:

Right. Yeah, my short ‘The Mighty Grand Piton’ was big for me. I think the biggest shame for me would be if no one from the Caribbean works on it. I mean, voice actors and musicians, all that kind of stuff is not a problem over there, right, but animation is an area where there isn't really a market

Wes Louis:

It would be great to have everyone at a level where we can outsource work, but i've learned making a series isn't straightforward

Mack Garrison:

Right.

Wes Louis:

I think if you can have people out there on our types of productions I think it would be super beneficial. I think the same thing happened with Flying Bark, with Rise Of Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles series. Having that type of project forced them to level up. That show is incredible. Now they’re so good now they can do that stuff by themselves. You know what I mean?

Mack Garrison:

Yeah.

Wes Louis:

So yeah, that kind of actually triggered the idea. So I think me doing it, isn’t about money or anything like that, it's like you said it's about time. It's one thing you talk about and talk about, but then I'm like, "You know what, let's dedicate time to it and make sure it's done. And then let's see what happens at the end of the year." And if at the end of the year where they feel like we've contributed something to them and they've used our resources, and they're able to talk to not just me, but some of the other partners and get some insights on how things are done, And if their work levels up, then I know it's working and I know that we're doing the right thing.

Mack Garrison:

I love it. Well you'll have to give us an update when you come to Raleigh on where some of that stuff is in the process. This was a really great convo. Thanks for hanging out with me for a bit.

Wes Louis:

Nice one, man. Nice to meet you and thanks for taking the time to talk to me as well.

Mack Garrison 7/7/23 Mack Garrison 7/7/23

Meet the speakers: Aaron Ray

An interview with Aaron Ray: an animation director and designer with an inclination towards illustrative design and character based work.

Q&A hosted by Mack Garrison & Meryn Hayes.

Read time: 15min

Mack :

Hey Aaron, for folks who don't know who you are, a little bit about you and your background and what brought you into motion design as an industry.

Aaron:

So currently I split my time between doing freelance with studios, whether that's art direction, creative direction, or just doing style frames and stuff like that. But I also have a rep for commercial and music video direction, so I'm kind of bouncing back and forth between those things. How I started was early on when I was into skateboarding growing up, just seeing all the graphics and stuff. And this was late '80s and '90s, but specifically the late '80s stuff when I was a little kid, when I first started skateboarding, the graphics were so bold, colorful, gruesome, funny, detailed and illustrative. I had never really seen anything like that.

So I was like, "This is really interesting and I think this might mean I could draw for a living," that kind of thing. I just drew all the time. And then also going back to skateboarding more when I got a little older in high school and college, we were just filming everywhere we went when we were skateboarding. So I got kind of used to using cameras and the idea of editing a video and then probably somewhere out of there, I started to see title design and stuff like that.

I went to college here in Denver and I went to the Art Institute, which is now defunct, and I initially thought I wanted to make live-action movies. But all I had were drawings and my bad skateboard graphics and things like that at the time. I met with an admission person and she said, “maybe you should go into our new computer animation program.” And I said, "Oh, that's cool. That sounds kind of cool." And this was like '98, so this was early, Toy Story had just come out, Pixar stuff was just getting a name and becoming kind of popular, and so the program was really rooted in visual effects for film and 3D character animation.

And so I went into that program and I was pretty unhappy with it because it was very computer based and I kind of learned throughout my time there that I really like more hands-on tactile feeling work. And I liked more design focused work.

Mack:

Well, it's interesting to me. It's like, all right, so you're a kid, you're growing up in the '90s, late '80s, you're loving skateboarding, so it brings you in from the design side of it. And then I'm just presuming here that you started making little random fun skating videos that ultimately brought you into film. Is that right?

Aaron:

Yeah, I bought a camera, a mini DV camera or eight millimeter, and we would just go around filming and editing. I didn't have Final Cut or anything like that at the time. So it was like in-camera editing or eventually we got two tape decks, and I don't know if you've ever done that, but you can run the camera into one tape deck and you're sort of transferring it to another tape deck and a VHS. So you're doing the editing to a tape from tape deck to tape deck.

Mack:

That's so funny. Are you putting on the classic dad fade where you fade in and fade out at the end in-camera?

Aaron:

Always. Every time.

Mack:

So I imagine the skating stuff, I mean, it's funny how many people I feel like I've talked to that have gotten into this space through skating because really it was kind of pioneers for recording yourself and recording your tricks. And so it got you into that. That always feels very tactile to me. I mean, skating is just rough in and of itself. And the designs on the boards and the decks themselves are really graphic. And so when you get into, it was the Art Institute that you were in Denver, right. And so you get to the VFX, the 3D character animation spawned after Toy Story coming out, which makes a lot of sense because there's this new push and admiration for 3D. But it sounds like you weren't digging it, you weren't really wild about it, but you just kind of pushed through it and felt like, "Well, I just got to get a degree and get out of here."

Aaron:

Yeah, I mean, I got a lot from school though. I learned the tools, I learned After Effects. At the time we were using 3D Studio Max, so I got a good sense of using the tools and understanding 3D. I kind of forgot to mention, growing up, I was really into music, punk music and just independent music in general. And so even before college I was skateboarding and music was a huge part of my life. And when I was in college, it was kind of pre-motion design too. So there wasn't a lot of that. And I think what I was missing is I really loved record covers. I really loved skateboard graphics, I liked filming stuff, but I hadn't really been introduced to motion design yet. And so, I don't know, I think I burnt out and just couldn’t get excited about what I was seeing in school.

In retrospect, I can look back at it now. And the 3D character stuff we see now, I'm like, "Wow, that's so cool." I wish we'd been kind of pushed in that direction versus just the movie VFX and CG stuff.

But music and playing in bands was really a big thing at that point for me. So I wanted to be a designer in the music industry. I wanted to do album covers and stuff like that. So I got this position as a designer for a small record label, for literally no money. I worked there for about three years. But it was a great experience and worth it in the long run, it actually had a big impact on me.

But streaming music started to slowly take over, and you kind of see the writing on the wall that I wasn't going to be able to continue just doing album covers. And I think it was probably around this time that I first saw, you guys remember a studio called Shilo?

Mack:

Out in San Diego or something, right?

Aaron:

They were California and New York City. But they were amazing. I think that's the first time I saw work that I would've considered motion design. There was one piece they did in particular, It was this kind of white cityscape thing. No materials, just white and what do you call it, Ambient Occlusion And the camera's just moving through and it's got this really experimental edit. And there was just this cool hiphop kind of beat that everything was cut to, and there was typography integrated and there were hand drawn doodles popping out everywhere. I was like, "Wow, this is cool." And it was 3D and 2D kind of mixed.

Mack:

That's so neat. I do remember Shilo. In fact, they were an inspiration for me when I was in school. I was like, "Oh man, this place looks amazing. I want to go work here." It does feel like it's a good segway though, from album art into it, right? Because album art seems equally as weird, off the walls, could be a mixed media of a lot of different things.

I'm curious about your take on this, because you worked at that job where you said three years, the first one that they weren't paying you initially and then they're paying you a little bit. And there's a big conversation around the industry even today, right? It's like, "Don't take unpaid internships, don't do work for less than what it costs."

And then at the same time, I hear you say about how much of a big impact that made on you. I mean, I think about some of the work that Dash has done over the years that has opened the doors to other projects. And some of those projects weren't the highest paying gigs, but we said yes to it because they seemed cool. I don't know, just any thoughts on that idea in the space on balancing stuff that you're into versus saying yes to some things?

Aaron:

I think if there's a benefit to doing something for no money or low money, then I think it's worth it. But I think each person has to weigh those options. For me, I just knew working in music design is what I want to do and this is my foot in the door, so I'm going to do it and I'm going to work hard to do it.

I guess the point is I will do stuff for lower cost if there's a creative benefit or if it will help me learn something new etc.

I’ve had projects before where I’ve thought "I can't believe I'm doing this for this much for the budget, but I think I'm just going to, I'm trying to ignore that and just keep pushing through it because I think the end product's going to be cool." But again I think you have to weigh the pros and cons of each situation because just because you have a cool end product, that doesn't always mean more work or anything though right?

Mack:

I think you made a really good point, Aaron, that you have to judge it against what you're interested in, what you want to do. And something for someone might be too low, but for others it might be the right fit, because I've heard a little adage as well, it's like don't ever undercharge. But we get projects sometimes that look really cool. We want to say yes to it, but they have a third of the budget that we would normally take on. But if it looks cool, it's like, let's do it and let's make it happen. I think it's also a big difference though, in what you're out there to try to do. And I think one of the reasons I love the motion design industry so much is it's really full of passionate creatives.

I think at the end of the day, there is still this desire to make cool badass work. And not all the time some of these groups out there need a helping hand. And if you can do it creatively, I think that's great. So I think ultimately it just kind of depends on everybody kind of where they are in their life, what they want to do.

So, sorry, I didn't mean to hijack the story there for a bit, but it was really interesting. So you leave the record design stuff, you kind of see the writing on the wall, that might not be a long term endeavor, and you had just discovered (Shilo) and this amazing work they were doing the kind of mixed media stuff. And so at that point, you really didn't know too much about motion graphics or motion design itself as a field, correct?

Aaron:

Yeah, not a lot. I mean, maybe motion graphics was a term at that point, but I don't think I was too familiar with it. I guess around that time I was approached by somebody who knew this company that was looking for an art director. And so I interviewed there and I moved from the record label and I got a job at this other place and they were a parent company for a bunch of skateboard and youth lifestyle kind of brands within it. And so I was an art director there where I did snowboard graphics and apparel graphics. I did packaging for footwear and box design and stuff.

And that was also a really cool stepping stone I think for me, because again, I'm learning more about the print design stuff still, but it started to get bigger than just doing record packaging. I went to China to do press checks on snowboard graphics, I art directed national Ad campaigns. So I just learned I think my whole experience from college up through this job was just learning different things and they're all really interesting and fun. And maybe, I don't think I was thinking too much about the future really at this point. I was just kind of going along for the ride and everything was interesting. I was learning new stuff every day. But during this job we started creating more video content and stuff. And then I started getting back into using AfterEffects and then motion design. This is actually the period when I first noticed Shilo, but then a bunch of other motion design studios were kind of popping up.

So yeah, I started doing more After Effects stuff and kind of got back into it. And then during that time is when I, actually taking a step back, at the record label is where met one of the partners of my future company Legwork. Actually two of my partners. But I went to this other job and they went their own way and we kind of parted careers for a bit, but it was during this new job when we started talking again, and then we started talking about maybe starting a company.

Mack:

Oh, nice. Were you guys doing moonlighting on side projects together or was it always like, "We'd like to do that," and maybe this company Legwork, what it ended up becoming is how you could do that?

Aaron:

We probably spent six months to a year just planning it out, designing our logos and crafting our “brand”. We all kept our jobs while we planned it. We designed the initial Legwork logo and then we built our first website. We quit our jobs before we launched the website, And I don't know if we were doing any big projects at the time, I think we went cold turkey and quit our jobs and went right into Legwork. And for me it wasn't that big of a deal because I still wasn't making that much money, But my two partners left better paying jobs to start Legwork, so they had more at stake.

Mack:

You're like, "I'm already broke. Why not just keep doing this?"

Aaron:

I wasn't worried at all. So yeah, I kind of feel bad about that for them!

Meryn:

Do you feel like y'all had a certain dynamic? To start a business with someone that takes a lot on both sides. Do you feel there was, I mean obviously y'all thought about it because there was six months leading up to it. Was there a lot of thought in terms of what Legwork would become in those early days? Or was it just like, "Let's jump and we'll see where we land?"

Aaron:

Yeah, that's a good question. I think I was idealistic about what it would become or what we wanted it to be. And I learned later, maybe nine years later, that if I was to start a business again, there are definitely things that maybe should have been different. But yeah I think the three of us had a good dynamic. One of the partners I was pretty good friends with because I worked with him probably for a year or so at the record label, and we all kind of ran in the same circles and had a lot of the same friends. The other one I also met at the record label, but he was just a freelance website designer that would do stuff for the record label so I didn't know him as well. But all of us came from the local music scene. And so we weren't the best of friends, but I think we were good enough friends and trusted each other enough to be comfortable with it.

But again, I think we were not thinking that far ahead. I didn't think, "Oh, what happens if you get in a fight with one of your business partners or something bad happens?" In my mind I was just thinking It was going to be a small studio where we had cool screen printed posters on the wall. I was just thinking more about what it was, where I was going to be sitting during the day. Being inspired by all my design books around me and stuff. I didn't really think about the business that much. I just thought we were going to create cool work all the time.

Mack:

Oh my gosh, that's so funny. I did the exact same thing, Aaron, when Cory and I started Dash, it was like, "Oh man, it'll be so rad. We can just hang out all day. We can make cool stuff."

We didn't talk about the fact that we'd be nitpicking each other's emails on how we write to clients. I mean, it’s just dumb shit like that the first year of any studio as you're working through the business stuff has got to be honestly some of the toughest.

Aaron:

Yeah. Was it just you two at first for a while?

Mack:

It was, we just had the two of us, so there was no third party to make a decision, although I guess Meryn kind of came in and is kind of making some decisions for us now, which has helped. Thank you, Meryn :)

Aaron:

Yeah. Well, so the three partners' situation was what it was and it was pretty good. And I think the three of us actually made sense because I was kind of coming from video and animation and illustration and also print design. But then the other partner was a website designer, and so he knew the website design and development world. And then the other partner had a business degree and he was like at the record label, he kind of managed the books and planned tours that kind of stuff. So he just kind of had more of the business mind. So we're like "Oh, this makes sense." But the crazy thing is one year into that structure, I think it was 2009, we brought on three additional partners.

Mack:

What was the impetus for that? Just cool people that you wanted to bring on?

Aaron:

We needed to fill out what we were doing with additional skill sets. One of our friends was a really good developer, so we brought him on and then we didn't really have a sales person, so we brought on this other guy to run sales. And then we needed another developer at the time that did a different type of development. So we had a front end developer and a back end developer.

*“If This Then Domino’s” is a website that uses IFTTT technology that allows customers to automatically order Domino’s pizza every time a particular situation occurs.*

Mack Garrison: Interesting. So the early days, you guys, what's really interesting to me is that even though it was kind of like you didn't have a long term plan, you did have a lot of really talented people and even as a small entity, you kind of had these different divisions of the company where kind of people were responsible for. And so how would it go? Did you guys develop processes to work together? Would each person go do their thing and bring information back to the table? Sales guy's like, "All right, I got us a project. Who wants to handle it?"

Aaron: When I think back on it, I was the only one who wasn't really from the website world. And so I think in a lot of ways I was just sitting there kind of doing my own thing and if something came up where we needed to do an animation or an illustration, that would be what I would do. I also was handling a lot of the company branding stuff, so I was just working on the visual side of the company and logos and that kind of stuff. But yes that’s essentially how it worked, but really the 6 of us each made up one part of what a full team on a project would be - so in those days we all kind of worked together on each project rather than one person doing a project and another person on a different project.

Mack:

Interesting. So the early days, everyone has their job, their niche, they bring their experience they have to the table. Were a lot of your clients in the books initially? Was it more kind of in the music space or that same kind of stuff that you had talked about? You were in the kind of album artwork, there was skate stuff, the sort of punk side of things. Was that still a lot of the work y'all were doing in the early days?

Aaron:

Yeah, kind of. So I left my job, the place was called Collective, but I left that job on really good terms. So I gave them two months' notice. I said, "I'm quitting, I'm going to start my own company." And they were super cool and supportive and they gave us work. They had stuff to do that they couldn't really do internally anyway, so they just gave that to us.

One of the brands was this old, I’m sure you've heard of Airwalk. They used to be a legit skateboard brand in the '80s and early ‘90s, but then they turned into kind of an “affordable” mainstream brand, So they brought us on for the brand relaunch website which was a really progressive website at the time. That was one thing about Legwork and Matt Wiggins, who was our developer/partner, he's like this genius developer. Okay, sorry, side note: I'm jumping back again here because this is right when the first iPhone came out…

And the iPhone killed Flash. So Matt, and all these guys came from the Flash development world and the iPhone basically didn't allow Flash, so it kind of killed, developers had to switch gears and start using HTML 5.

And so Matt was such a genius developer that he started figuring out how to do HTML 5 websites that felt like Flash. So we did the first Airwalk projects. And it was just really cool and experimental, we were winning awards for it, and then we also won an award for our own website.

I don't think awards really matter so much anymore, but maybe they do more so in the web world. I'm not even sure these days, but back then, winning those awards, we won at SXSW for our website and then the Airwalk site won maybe a Webby or FWA I think. And that actually got us quick name recognition in that world. So we're definitely known as a web company initially and I struggled a bit because I was from the animation and design side. And it took us a long time, I think to even be known as doing animation. That was kind of an interesting journey for me personally.

Mack:

Well, I can imagine, because as anyone knows who's run the studio, there's ebbs and flows on different types of work. So you know, you may find that you're a particular type of designer, you're getting a lot of type of work coming in, but then there's a pivot and then you're kind of like, "All right, how can I help?" And you're in this kind of space to give me more work, why everyone else is overloaded. And that's going to be a hard thing to kind of navigate. So when you guys, you won, so really the growth came from winning some of these awards, getting the recognition with them, landing some other jobs and then landing those bigger jobs got you more recognition and it kind of became more of a snowball effect on how stuff came in. Is that more or less how the growth happened?

Aaron:

Yeah, I think winning the SXSW award for our own website, I think within a year we had a rep for the studio, like an LA based rep. And so they immediately introduced us to bigger agencies. And then we started doing a lot of work just with bigger agencies, almost right off the bat.

Mack:

That's really fun. Well, especially, I know there's a lot of folks out there who talk about whether they want to be repped or is that a good thing or a bad thing. It sounds like for you all, that was a real big key in moving forward and taking on some bigger projects was the award and then getting representation. Do you think that's accurate?

Aaron:

Yeah, for sure. I think times are, I know it wasn't that long ago, but I think times were different in the industry then too though.

I think the industry was less saturated with small and mid-size companies back then too. So I think we were a bit of an anomaly because we did interactive and animation. So that was definitely unique for the time. I even think now it's a little unique and I feel like if I do ever start another studio, I would probably do that again.

Mack:

I think being, at least from my perspective, is a little bit shifted cause we are a general studio. And so I like the idea, I mean, we're still in the lens of just animation or live action, but we still, we're not just 2D, we do 3D, we do a bunch of things.

I think variety is important, honestly, I think what keeps animators on their toes, you talk about your partners having to learn like HTML 5, kind of pivoting completely and then it discovers a new way of doing things. I think that's how studios evolve and last is you have to mix it up a little bit

Aaron:

Yeah, I think you're totally right. Having those two different disciplines when we were slow and on one side we could make up for it on the other side of the company. But in terms of the motion stuff, it was a gradual growth. And we got bigger and bigger projects on that side. And then I think by the end, it's interesting, I talked to a lot of people, some people knew us only as an animation studio then.

Mack:

Huh. Interesting. So, I don't want to spoil anything from your talk that could be coming up.

Aaron:

I think I've already spoiled half of it.

Mack:

Well good. Well, this will just be an accent then to what's coming up. So Legwork continues to grow. You guys talked about the beginning that you really didn't have any kind of a long term plan. It was just like, "Oh, we'll do this. This is good. Oh we'll do six partners, this seems good," right? And you grow a little bit. Did people kind of come in and out for a bit at Legwork? Did some of those partners stay? Was it kind of fluid where folks were coming in and out of the studio for a bit?

Aaron:

In terms of partners, we were pretty much all there until 2016. Having six partners sounds insane to me now, but we did a really good job of working together for that amount of time, which is a pretty long time for six people to stay friends and business partners.

In the beginning we didn't really have any employees. We had a couple interns, maybe a year or two years in, they came on And our first intern became an employee and was with us for 8 or 9 years!

And it's funny, I think one of our selling points early on, and this is no offense to producers because I fully changed how I think about this over the years, but my partners were like, "We don't need producers, we're a small tight-knit team. We're all pretty senior level at this point and we can just do the work. We can talk directly to clients." And I actually think a lot of our clients liked that. And I think that was a bit of a selling point for us for a while. But as we got bigger and bigger, we brought on bigger and bigger projects we brought on producers. And I would never do that again, I value producers so much now. It's insane.

Mack:

Well as soon as you spend 75% of your day writing emails instead of working, you're like, "Wait a minute. What happened here?

Meryn:

And a level of objectiveness that's just like, it's really hard to separate yourself from the art or what you're making and that layer from the client to you, a little bit of protection from yourself.

Aaron:

Definitely. Even now, just working as an independent, I have the producer at my rep company and he does most of the corresponding work. We'll do meetings, creative meetings and stuff like that. But when I do a check-in, I'm like "Here's my deck, here's my stuff for the day" and he’ll send it over. Often when a producer is the middle-person, they're just passing an email over and then getting the feedback. And sometimes that can get muddy if the producer doesn't communicate it correctly. But it's been great Rob the EP. And I actually really like that process because I can stay kind of focused on just doing my work.

Mack:

Well, there's a lot more to talk about here, Aaron, but I think it leaves a lot for what's to come, the presentation. And I know Meryn and I both really enjoyed chatting with you today and getting to know a little bit of background. I'm super excited to be hanging at the Bash this year.

Aaron:

Awesome. Cool. Well, thank you both very much. Looking forward to meeting in person and I’ll talk to you soon.

Meryn:

Awesome. Thanks, Aaron.

Mack Garrison 4/28/23 Mack Garrison 4/28/23

Meet the speakers: Cabeza Patata

An interview with Cabeza Patata: A company born from a love of characters.

Q&A hosted my Meryn Hayes & Ashley Targonski.

Read time: 15min

Meryn:

Welcome! We'd love it if you could introduce yourself and tell us a little bit about the studio.

Abel:

So I'm Abel…

Katie:

And, I'm Katie, and we set up the studio Cabeza Patata almost five years ago now. It started as just something that we were having fun doing together, we were just making some drawings, we started making some murals in the street, and we started putting everything together slowly and then we started to realize that we had a nice body of work and so we made a webpage for ourselves and then things just really grew from there.

Abel:

Probably in the beginning, the time in which we were doing it just for fun, it felt like a long time, but it was around six months of trying and experimenting. And I think by the time we started putting things out online, we were doing something that was looking very different.

Katie:

But then we made a bit of a change, I'll probably get more into this later, but we decided to open up a gallery space in Barcelona. Because we said okay, "We'd like to make more physical pieces."

So as well as making the 3D digital illustrations, animations, we also started creating more things out of wood and more puppets, giant characters, all of these crazy ideas that we had also had from the beginning. And then we made even more changes.

Abel:

Yeah…and after leaving for an entire year, traveling in a camper van, we are now focusing on physical art, so it's been a long evolution in the five years.

Meryn:

I love that. I love the idea of digital and tactical, and that y'all have tag-teamed that and involved both elements. I think we're so digital these days and there's just something relieving about going back to something that's so much more tactile, and you can feel it or see it and touch it. So that's interesting.

Abel:

I think it's completely true. I think one of the problems is that when people want to jump on the computer and create 3D art without ever even having taken a photographic camera and taken a photo of something they have created. And I think you learn so much about how to light a scene, and the difference between different camera lenses. There are so many steps that you can learn before jumping into just doing things with the computer. I think it has influenced everything we do.

Katie:

And then 3D sometimes as well influences the physical arts. So it's always going back and forth. But we always say to people, because people are always, "Oh, what advice do you give?" And it's always do what you like and then it'll be different and it'll be good. So that's what we always try to do if you begin.

Meryn:

Great advice. So how did you discover motion design or animation?

Abel:

So our backgrounds are pretty different. I studied media in university. I'm from Spain, and I moved to London just after finishing uni. I was 22 years old, and I started working in some little production companies doing animation, motion graphics. I knew a bit about AfterEffects and I started getting my first jobs doing that, and I learned on the job.

I didn't have any training in any software, but because I had studied media, I felt confident just learning on the internet and I had good foundations I think. And a few years later I found myself learning a bit of 3D, but Katie's background is very different.

Katie:

I was studying French and politics in university and then I realized I also really like making things and I like drawing things so what could I do? I decided to do this summer course and that's where we ended up meeting. But then it was many years later really, after I actually went to study illustration as well in Barcelona, and then when Abel was starting to think about 3D, I was more starting to think about character design and illustration. And so we started to combine those two things and learn together.

Meryn:

That's great. I also love hearing when people are set on a path like French and politics, and then going back to what you said about finding what you love and doing that, they pivot and do something else. Or I think sometimes we get so caught up growing up, and being told, "Find what you want to do for the rest of your life." But there are stories of success if you follow what you really enjoy doing. I think people need to hear that, so they don't feel so trapped in that decision of, do I do what I've been doing? Or do I try something new?

Katie:

Yeah, for sure. And you can make that change anytime. People in my year in uni were like, "It's already too late. We've already done a four year degree." And that was only age 22. And then a few years later people now say, "Oh now I can't do it now because I've done five years on my job." But I think you can do it any time. Obviously you need to take into account financial issues and stability and things. But especially in our job, I mean we started bit by bit still working on the side and then when things grew enough that was all that we were doing. I just enjoyed it.

Abel:

I was starting in my career when I started dating Katie, she was still in uni, and I was very surprised about how her degree was so much more precise, studying language and studying politics, you had to write very detailed papers, that you were taking everything that you were doing very seriously in that formal university way. And I remember coming from my degree in media, we would not take those types of things as seriously. But then in reality when you move into professional work, to be able to write correctly, express yourself, be very serious about how you communicate yourself, I think has helped us massively.And many times, people that work with us say after projects, "Oh we love working with you guys, because you are very serious in the way you communicate. You express everything, you save us time by documenting things properly, explaining your decisions." All those things are very important as well. So whatever you have studied, you can apply it.

Ashley:

As you said earlier, you're entering your fifth year of business, which is really exciting. Founded in 2018 and only a year later in 2019 y'all were going to conferences, you were starting to get your name out there and very quickly y'all were winning awards. How has that quick ramp up and growth path been?

Katie:

I mean, pretty crazy to be honest. I think it's been a really amazing five years and I think when you are living in it, I guess you don't realize how fast everything's going. But yeah, when you think about it you realize how short a time it is.

Abel:

Yeah, it was very intense. I think that especially the first two years, so many things happened. As you were saying, the year after, the second year of starting the studio we were speaking in very big festivals in front of a lot of people. And so we didn't really have much time to think about those things, and I think that's why, as Katie was saying, we were trying to rethink a lot of what we do and the position in which we are operating.

One of the things that created in us was a lot of anxiety about how we are going to be able to continue doing work that is exciting? You go, they invite you to a conference and people ask you, "Oh what are you going to do next?" And then you think, "Oh I don't know, I'm just starting, I'm trying things out."

So I think that for us to be able to slow down the machine and try to look at things with perspective has helped us a lot. That's why we're doing a lot of physical work right now, because we reminded ourselves of the fact that that's why we started. We found the clients asking for the same thing again and again, and it didn't feel that the clients were getting tired of it, but definitely we were getting tired of it.

Ashley:

That's great to establish those boundaries. Also, as a couple running this business, I bet work is very prevalent in your lives, so understanding that balance between what is work and what is actual life stuff is very necessary.

Katie:

Yeah, I think it helps a lot though, because I think that we can be very honest with each other. I'm sure other business owners are as well, but because we were a couple for a long time before we started working together, you can also sort of tell if something's not feeling right or you can be very honest all the time about it. But for sure I think having clear boundaries and knowing when you're at work and when you're not at work is the key really.

Abel:

Yeah, physically separating your working space from your living space is very important. Especially if you are working being a couple at the same time, because if not, it would just follow us everywhere.

Meryn:

Yeah, I think that's something that's been very apparent after the last few years, the boundaries being blurred going into the pandemic of work and home are one thing. I have a five-year-old daughter, so parenthood and life and work were all squished into one.

Abel:

Yeah, definitely. I think dividing your day in slots and saying, "Okay, after this time I'm just not going to do work." Or, "I'm going to move to a different task." So we try to do the most boring stuff really early in the morning, do emails at nine in the morning and then we don't do emails after, unless it's something, some emergency or something. But we try to organize the day a lot like that. Our work is a creative job in which you need that creative energy, it's not only about not falling asleep, it's also about having a brain that is giving you something beautiful that you're enjoying.

Meryn:

Yeah, yeah. I think what you mentioned about just how quickly everything's happened for you the past few years, just reminds me of defining what success looks like, because for so many people who might look at your website and be like, you have great clients and you have great work. But again, going back to what you said about what makes you happy, and you needed a break from that and recognizing that, I think a lot of people have a hard time always looking for the next thing that makes them successful.

Abel:

I think as well we had a really privileged position, or it was really good for us so early on being invited to so many conferences and festivals because we spoke to many people, and many people at a studio that we completely admired for years. And one of the things that we noticed that was happening with everyone we're speaking to is that they would say, "Oh I missed the early days when I was actually doing the job, and now I turn my studio into a big machine in which I don't do the things anymore. I'm managing."

Katie:

I always thought, "Oh it'd be so cool to work with this client. Oh that will surely make me happy." But that definitely runs out, or maybe isn't even really real anyway. But especially if you're choosing to do a creative job, I think the thing that actually is fulfilling is actually making something that you care about, and that's really nice. I think the satisfaction has to come from the actual making, and then the results of it.

So I think if you are thinking, "Oh I'm working with all these big clients, but I'm not inspired by the work." That makes sense.

Abel:

And also from a business point of view, sometimes we found that people grew their companies to really, really big sizes. It's not even necessarily profitable. But the typical studio that has 20, 30 people has so many associated costs, that we personally want to be able to continue creating the work, and we are convinced that we can still make it profitable in the long term. Still take on big commercial companies when there's a need for them, but try to avoid doing those monotonous jobs that might not pay well.

Meryn:

So I feel like I have to ask, and it doesn't have to be a client since we just established that dream client isn't maybe something to gear towards, but what would you say is a dream project or something that you wanted to do, whether it's a type, or a medium, or a client?

Katie:

Well, right now we're just starting to think about maybe we'd like to make giant mechanical characters, maybe out of wood or metal, but things that the audience can come and maybe turn a lever and a giant character's mouth opens or arms move or something. So something really magical that you wanted to do since you were little, kind of thing.

Abel:

And I think for a commercial campaign on the other hand, I think the dream client for us is always the one that is very, very final. When you are talking to the final destiny of the project. I think that the best commercial campaign we've done is the campaign we did with Spotify. And the reason why that's the best one is not because suddenly we were more inspired, or we tried more than with other clients, it's because we were working with a team in New York that was the team that was going to deliver the campaign. We were working directly with the Spotify team and they even came to Barcelona to see us, and we had meetings with them and we were having this direct communication and they understood what we wanted to do and they trusted us.

So many other times we thought things were going to go that way, but when there are so many people in the middle that message gets lost. And we are trying as much as possible to avoid those people in the middle, but obviously the entire industry is made on advertisement agencies and representation agencies, and all of those extra steps. And once in a while we get the chance to work with a client like Spotify or Apple that comes directly to us, but doesn't happen all the time.

Meryn:

So can you talk us through how that Spotify project came to be?

Abel:

Do you remember how it happened? We got an email one Christmas saying, "Hi, we are from Spotify, blah blah blah, and we would like to do one illustration or something." And then they completely disappeared.

Katie:

Yeah. Until six months later.

Abel:

But we continued sending them emails, because we thought, "Oh we had the email of someone and they had copied someone else." So we continued sending them the emails and updating them with things that we were doing. And the emails were not bouncing, but nobody was answering. And then six months later they came.

Katie:

Again, at that time they were very, very unique in how they were and they really liked our style, and internally everyone decided that was the one. I think that for the most part for Spotify and for other big campaigns that we have, it's really self-promotion and having a big social media presence. We post all of our projects on Behance. We explain everything, and we notice whenever we post there that we get a lot of views and I think it's a lot of people from the industry, and a lot of potential clients are looking there.

Meryn:

Yeah, if you think about how much work goes into creating a set of characters, it's a lot. And so it's nice not only for you all but for other people to see your process as well. I'd love to hear about the Spotify campaign, did they come to you with a pretty filled out brief of like, "This is what we want?"

Katie:

So they had some clear things from the beginning, that was basically they wanted to have different characters represent different moods that you feel when you listen to music. So how are we going to do that? And then they said the character should be the same throughout all of the videos, and should be gender neutral, age neutral and race neutral. Because they wanted to go everywhere, but that was it.

Abel:

Yeah, yeah. That was about it.

Katie:

And so we were like, "Okay, we'll come up with some ideas." And we sent them to them and then they came up with some ideas and we sort of had a nice back and forth during the beginning. It was like we never really went backwards. I think that was why it was such a good campaign too, because they were excited as well. So energy was always going forwards. It was never like, "Oh, can we go back to that thing that you did two weeks ago?" And you're like, "I don't know if I kind of saved over that file or something perhaps, and I thought we left it." So it was always going forward and making things better.

Ashley:

Where did the name for Cabeza Patata come from?

Katie:

Everyone always asks us that and we don't have a very clear response. We just found it funny I guess, I was learning Spanish and I was just, I'd always ask, "Oh what does this mean? How do you say this?" And one day, I don't know why I thought about it, but in Toy Story I was like, "Oh is Mr. Potato Head called Senor Cabeza Patata." And Abel found it super funny.

Abel:

It's funny. It's not even translated like that, it wouldn't even translate like that, doesn't make sense. You would say an article in the middle. And-

Katie:

You said his name is Mr. Patato.

Abel:

Yeah, we call him Mr. Patato. So it didn't make sense, but the name Cabeza Patata sounded a bit in my head like Hakuna Matata sounds a bit like that, so it has something funny.

Meryn:

That's great. I'd love to hear about Patata School. Tell us what was the start of that?

Katie:

So we set that up only last March. It hasn't even been a year officially of the school being live yet, but we've got a really nice community. Right now we're about 800 or a little bit more than 800 students in school, and we keep creating content and courses, we're about to have our first livestream.

Abel:

The idea of Patata School has started, connected to every decision we've done, trying to be more independent and taking things by ourselves, we knew that a lot of people were doing courses within other platforms and we got contacted by a lot of platforms to do courses with them. And because we've been teaching in universities and we really liked that, we didn't feel that just giving the content to another platform was going to work for us.

We set it up not knowing how well it was going to go, but it's amazing. I think we're going to cross before finishing the year into 1000 active members in there, which is, it's insane. We are so happy. And it's turning into the way in which, as well, we can make money without having to focus so much on commercial work. And as we progress now into doing more physical work, we want to incorporate that more as well inside Patata School and almost turn it into this school in which you can learn computer programs and illustration, digital illustration, but also we want to make a community of crafters and people making the stuff with their hands and learning which tools to get and how to construct and to use materials. So that's the challenge for this year.

*Patata School Complete Character Animation by Cabeza Patata*

Katie:

And it's cool to do because people in the school suggest ideas for courses. They say, "Oh, I'd really like to learn specifically this thing." And then we'd make a course in that. So it's really nice that you know directly that what you make is going to be appreciated, and to see, and people share their results and things in there, which is really nice. So yeah, it's a much more hands-on, non-commercial space way of doing things.

Meryn:

Okay, cool. When y'all have a making characters out of wood and mechanical class, I am signing up for that course. That sounds fun.

I was looking on your website, and I love the line, "We believe characters can change the world." I think that's so true and now maybe more than ever. Talk through that a little bit.

Abel:

Yeah. We think as well that character design is so on the foundation of how we understand, how everyone does understand art. Even if it looks a bit like a very niche thing. I like saying this thing that when you are a kid, that's the first thing you do when you get a pencil, you draw your family and you even put a little face in the sun or in your house. You put faces everywhere, because everything is a character when you're small, and it's so relevant. And even kids' drawings can be analyzed to show how they understand the structure, the structure within the family, the distance they put between one person and another.

So all of those things still translate when you are an adult. So if you have a lot of stereotypes and you have things that are in your brain that end up appearing in illustration, we see that every day. People might think, "Oh no, that's not relevant anymore." But it is not true, in the world of character design, we are still having a lot of stereotypes being applied again and again. We read a lot of books about animation. Most of the best books of animation are classic books from the big Walt Disney artists, and they're full of gender stereotypes. It's unbelievable.

You read it and you think, "Wow, this is insane that this is how gender was represented in animation for so many years." So I think there's a massive opportunity to change those things.

Katie:

Definitely. And to an extent I think it still continues to be as well, because there's such an imbalance in the industry of gender and general diversity. Talking in festivals like in your festival, you make a really big effort, to actually make sure you have diversity in the lineup. But in so many big festivals there isn't that at all, and so many big brands and things as well, maybe that might feel that they should have a responsibility more to push that. But you might go to a Adobe Live event and just see the same five 45 year old white guys again and again and again. And you think, why is it like that?

Meryn:

Yeah, exactly. I mean that's definitely something that's been important to us both in 2021 and this year, is trying to be representative of the people who are attending. So making sure that we're getting a variety of perspectives and across different industries. So I think it's really focusing on representing the community who is such a diverse, wonderful group of people, and making sure that we highlight that.

Katie:

Yeah. In that way as well, I think inviting more people to join the animation, or design, or illustration industry in general. And if I think the more voices there are, the more interesting things are being made too. But another thing in the school is that we have students from over 70 different countries and the stuff that people make is actually really different depending on their country. And we're always trying to say that, in the tutorials we say, "Try, instead of making this house, why don't you make a house how it would look in your country?" And so people post the specific objects or foods, or anything that they've made that's from their country and explain what it is, and suddenly you think, "Oh, actually I literally have never even seen”, like the other day, "A 3D Dominican house before. And now I have. And that's the first time she has made it and she made it look so nice." So I think that's also part of the key of being a designer.

Abel:

It's been amazing how just growing in our social media and having grown our audience during these five years, we have people from all over the place. We love that, and it's been so interesting. As Katie is saying as well, having that in the forums in the school, which is a place that is a bit cozier. Sometimes places like Instagram feels like everything goes so fast and there's so much noise that we miss messages and notifications, but within the school we have that culture space. It's been very, very nice to see how diverse it has been in there.

Ashley:

What are things that y'all think through when you're trying to design a character that, like for Spotify, should be gender neutral or not specific to one group?

Abel:

When we are making personal projects, and also with clients, I think the best thing that you can do is just go around, and look at what you see everywhere in the street and try to represent that. And I think that sometimes we don't realize how diverse a place like London, you know, has a lot of people, people have different ages.

Age is a massive thing in character design. We're watching TV and we are used to every single character, no matter how graphical or non graphical they are to be the same 20 to 35 years old. And that's what is susceptible to be, and obviously people are going to be older and still consume products and still listen to Spotify... And we are trying all the time to represent that, even before the client brings it up. I think it's important when you do a pitch to put it out and to have characters that might be on a wheelchair, and you can put that in a pitch or in a proposal without the client having said so, because they never said that the character had to be fully able.

Katie:

Yeah. And on the whole, no one's going to say to you, "Oh, can we take the character out of the wheelchair?" Because one, there's no point. And two, that would just be such a horrible thing to say. So generally if you try and push more diversity, it's going to happen. And so it's up to you to push it. I think what Abel's saying, sometimes it's a bit complicated, this concept of, oh, can we make it gender neutral or age neutral? Because what is that? I think that's just one of many different ways of being, so what we like to do in all of our work is just try and make everybody represented.

Abel:

But also even on parts that might not be directly related to people, if you represent objects, to represent things that connect to your life and things that you love, it's something we need to do all the time. And even ourselves, I remember last year we had to design a post box and we made the post box look like one of these post box you guys have in America. I've never seen one of those in my life, and I make it like a 3D, those post box and with that little thing that goes up and down when the postman comes, we don't have that. They don't look like that in the UK. They don't look like that in Spain, but somehow we have that in our brain. So it's good to come out of that and start, the best thing is just go on the street, look how people look, look how your city looks and just put it in your work.

Meryn:

Yeah, spot on. Well, this was so much fun. We're just so excited to have y'all at the bash and we're really excited to meet you in person in July!

Abel & Katie:

Thank you so much, yeah, really nice to meet you both.

Mack Garrison 4/17/23 Mack Garrison 4/17/23

Takeover Tuesday Reece Parker

An interview with Reece Parker: self-taught Animation Director and illustrator.

Q&A with Reece Parker.

Read time: 5min

Matea Losenegger:

Hi Reece! Thank you for contributing your time to our Tuesday Takeover series. Can you tell us a little about yourself and your work?

Reece Parker:

Of course! Thanks for having me. I'm Reece, self-taught Animation Director and illustrator. Subscriber to the famed philosophy "fake it til you make it'. My work leans hand drawn with dark color palettes, but I dive into briefs that range the full spectrum of 2D - and love it all. The more corporate, the more bright and poppy. The more Reece, the more scribbly and dark. 2 sides to one coin really.

Outside of work, I'm a husband and dad to 3 beautiful and intelligent children (Not sure if they actually have my DNA). I also grew up skateboarding religiously, which persists as the foundation of my own personal culture. Fail, start again, fall, get up, on and on. These things influence my work consistently.

Matea Losenegger:

You've been well known in this industry for a while now. How much has motion design changed since you started and what are your thoughts on its future?

Reece Parker:

I discovered and jumped into the industry in early 2016. It was a breeding ground of beautiful and inspired work, from every direction you looked. It was perfect for myself (and young artists like me), with an ambition to join the ranks of those considered great in our field. It was a beautiful time looking back. Empty bank account mind you - but a bursting industry and one that accepted me almost right away.

In 2023, it's still full of beautiful work, but you might have to dig a bit deeper to find it. Industry expanding, client deliverables following suit. But close-knit community might be shrinking a bit. That might be my own small perspective as I become more and more my own island. Or, maybe that's the natural progression of things. This industry is fascinating and beautiful, but maybe less curated and served up on a platter. It has certainly been a shifting landscape for the past several months.

Technology is doing its best to shake up working artists at the current point in time. We will see how that progresses, but I for one stand firmly in the "not worried...yet" camp. It's funny, I was just chatting with a legacy artist in our industry, whose work was among the first of which I was exposed to, about how we might be affected and the validity of our industry moving forward. We all share commonalities but have different perspectives.

To summarize my thoughts on that convo:

Real clients that deserve our protection are the ones that value our input and collaboration. Skillsets might be outsourced, but tastes and ideas are best formulated as a team and in collaboration with clients - relationships. This is something that isn't replaced by technology and is actually the most valuable. For clients that wish for cheaper, easier, faster, and shittier - those clients might flock to AI. Great! Let them. They also have to know exactly what it is they want, how many times have you encountered a client with that certainty..? Taste, ideas, expertise, and collaboration stand as powerful pillars in our industry - despite the tools.

I may eat my words, but Im comfortable with that if it comes in the future. Screens are king, and content is not decreasing in demand.

Matea Losenegger:

As an expert in cel, what makes a compelling animation or character movement?

Reece Parker:

I found myself thinking about this the other day in-depth...by myself.

I think that answer might not be so obvious, animation is diverse - and styles range. Once you have an understanding of timing, you can manipulate it, exaggerate it, work in and out of many softwares, and it be equally beautiful completely realistic, or totally unique.

I think what makes great animation is great design. Strong posing. That's how I see it lately.

For cel or characters specifically, understanding how the body moves and how to position it in your animation. Action is formed first in our brains, and that is limited by our comprehension of how a character might react in reality. Then it can be manipulated or stylized appropriately per the creative, but the foundation is based in reality. Our level of comprehension of that reality "makes or breaks" our shots.

Matea Losenegger:

How did you develop your distinct visual style and how do you keep your ideas fresh?

Reece Parker:

My style is an exercise in evolving over time. I started in this industry with what I thought "motion graphics" was, that being clean vector shapes bopping around. Turns out I had only been exposed to a small (but impressive) corner of motion design at that time. I'm glad I was so short-sided, because the foundation of After Effects forward workflows really balanced my lifetime experience of drawing by hand. When the right time for me to be more artistically driven came along (rather than driven purely by survival) I found my hand-drawn roots ready for me to tap right in. That mixed with a new breadth of knowledge of a whole other form of artistry, more graphic and math driven. The combination of the 2 is really where my style lives. My preference might be to scribble on everything, but that's realistically not the right solution for everything - I understand that. My evolution through this industry has allowed me to deliver on "different" expertise' under the 2D umbrella with confidence and vision indiscriminately.

*Still from* Trifilm’s short for Microsoft.

Matea Losenegger:

In a similar vein, do you have any tips on how to combat burnout?

Reece Parker:

Burnout! The dreaded burnout. There's no one size fits all solution here. I have had small symptoms of burnout that I have powered through and left in the dust. Other times it has been more all-consuming. Depending on its severity, my first course is to identify it and try to trace it back to its inception. Might have been a lost pitch that I loved that has a lasting effect I wasn't considering. Could be anything! If It's correctly identified, it's a more seamless path through the tunnel and out the other side. If it's being ignored or unacknowledged, how can we realistically work through it? For me it's not always as simple as "take some time off", my work lives and breaths in my head - on and off the clock. "Taking time" off is only beneficial if I've overcome what's affecting me first.

Matea Losenegger:

On your site you say that "from time to time, I will join a project as an animator or illustrator- if the shoe fits." What about a project entices you into those roles?

Reece Parker:

Working in multiple capacities with clients allows me to be more particular about what I take on. It might be as simple as an awesome brief, don't get me wrong - I love this stuff. If there's something that seems challenging and interesting, then great. Or, It might be a legacy client that has supported me from the start, maybe they are in a bind, or maybe they only see me fitting the job. Great, let's knock it out. Relationships above my own ego, and I'm not in the business of burning those that have been there for me.

That being said, what I find most compelling in my current project landscape are projects that mix leadership and artistry. If I can take one shot, while directing the rest of the shots with an awesome team - I'm very stoked. Put simply, I've found that mix of responsibilities really suits my skillset, and the more I've done it the more clear that has become.

*Shot from the TIMELORD spot for Battleaxe.*

Matea Losenegger:

When pitching for projects, how do you make sure yours stand out in a sea of other amazing studios and artists?

Reece Parker:

I've been pitching like mad! Sometimes we snatch it, sometimes it blows away. It's the nature of the beast. Luckily I'm not completely reliant on pitching, so it's less depressing to be kicked aside. I don't consider myself wholly unique, I just try to be proud of what I present to clients. If I'm not proud of it, I know that there was more I could have poured into it. If I'm proud of it but it goes another way, then I wasn't the artist for the creative. It's really that simple. Stiff competition at the top of the mountain, really really stiff. But Im proud to be considered in those conversations so frequently now. Learning and absorbing all I can.

Matea Losenegger:

What's it like working for a studio like Hornet? What does it mean to be repped by a studio vs working for them as a staff member or freelancer?

Reece Parker:

They are great collaborators, and supportive. We are more intimately collaborative now, more open, and more frequent communication on and off jobs. I'm really excited to be partnered with them and excited about what the future brings.

Outside of that, I work as I always have. My independence is unshakably important to me, so I made sure that was clear in our negotiations. They were and have been supportive through and through.

Being "repped" means that Hornet (in my case, there are many reps) packages up my work and sells it through to their contacts and clients. If there are jobs that come in that feel like they fit my capabilities, they will poke me to see If I'm free and interested. If so, they pair me up with them in their communication and presentation to clients. From there, I champion the vision and creative treatment of the project. Client presentations, team building and expectations, project style and execution, etc. They help me resource the job, schedule it, budget it, communicate with clients, all the things that can be not so-fun solo.

Hornet's reach is as wide as it gets. They also serve a tier of client that Reece Parker as a solo act doesn't reach. They act as my team if we win the project together.

If I win a project solo, and want to bring them in, I also have that ability. Take some of the load off of my plate. But I also have the freedom to tackle it myself, as I have been doing comfortably for many years. Depends on the context rather than one size fits all.

Staff - Im not sure! I've never been staff anywhere but Taco Bell and Costco. Staff artists are there to support jobs that are being directed, and are assigned and scheduled according to their skillset. Hornet also has strong staff artists, that are super super helpful when building out teams in tandem with freelancers or if we can't resource freelance talent for whatever reason.

Freelance - freelancing has a bit more commonality with being repped, and with being staff. You are poked to join a project that is being directed, to fill a need on that production line. That project ends and you join the next team and next project. Instead of jumping to other people's creatives, I find myself more often owning the creative, and trying to source great talent to join me.

Matea Losenegger:

As someone who is revered for their work, is there anything you would like people to know about you outside of your art?

Reece Parker:

The work may be revered, but I don't think Im special. I think the path I've carved may be at least partially unique but also serves as proof of concept for those willing to do the same. LOVE what you do, and keep working at it as a consequence.

Outside of work, I love life. I love my family to death. Wife, kids, parents, siblings, and friends alike. I've been really fortunate, I try to be considerate of that. I love overthinking, analyzing things with Kiara, building things with my dad, and teasing and dancing with my kids. I try to be carefree when it's beneficial to be, and take things seriously that ask for it. It's served me well in life.

I'm a product of independence, my path throughout my life is proof of that. Skateboarding is an individual activity, it's no coincidence that I have remained solo in my eventual career. But I'm not here without the influence and help of so many others. Indirectly or directly from those close to me. Shout out those folks! Much love.

Matea Losenegger:

What does the rest of 2023 look like for you? Are there any projects you're excited about?

Reece Parker:

Some interesting things! I am nearing the end of building out a new warehouse studio. Sort of a dream come true, but so is my current studio honestly. The new endeavor is symbolic of where the business is going, and I wouldn't have invested in it if the business hadn't earned it.

That's something I've really been contemplating. When I was commissioning my shipping container conversion in late 2019, I remember really carefully considering the financial implications of the commitment - mostly just full of anxiety and fear. But I did it because that was what the business deserved at the time. I had those same feelings and reservations about buying my first iMac, as a replacement workstation for my original MacBook that my wife secretly saved for and bought for me to start my career.

It seems so small now in comparison, but those memories serve as a strong example of my commitment to investing back into myself and the business when the time is right. You can feel it, and it's always scary. But the clear lesson is to invest in yourself.

Projects and new things are hush-hush for now, but yes I am excited, and will share more soon! Thanks, Dashers!

Guest User 12/21/21 Guest User 12/21/21

Takeover Tuesday with Fabien Rousseau

Q&A with Fabien Rousseau, an Illustrator and Animator currently living in Brussels, with a design and code background.

Q&A with Fabien Rousseau
Read time: 8min

MDS Motion Pro Trailer - Shot 5 Final. Fabien Rousseau.

Madison Caprara:

Hi, Fabien! Why don’t you start us off with a little introduction to yourself?

Fabien Rousseau:

Hi, thank you so much for having me! I’m Fabien Rousseau, a French Animator currently living in Brussels, Belgium—you know, the tiny country with two official languages, double-fried fries, and beers twice as strong as normal. I love goofy characters, colorful art, and things I don’t understand. I feel lucky to do what I am doing every day, and I try to be an active player in our community.

Madison Caprara:

Double-fried fries AND freakishly strong beer. Sounds like my type of place.

How did you originally find yourself within the creative field? When did you know this was something you wanted to pursue professionally?

Fabien Rousseau:

I guess the drive for creation came pretty early. I was not drawing that much as a kid, but I remember building giant robots out of paper toilet tubes, cardboard, and glue. I forced my parents to keep my creations in their bedroom as my own personal exhibition. I was so obsessed with tape that they had to hide it from me—I still think it’s one of the best inventions ever.

Later on, I became a bass player and the composer of my 8-members ska teenager band. Being able to express our lefty propaganda through art was a blast, and seeing people shaking their butts to my music was a killer achievement. That was the first time I had felt the effervescence of a team, and what we could achieve with symbiosis and dedication. This career sadly ended when I broke my cello on stage cause I was wearing fins and a diving suit.

Fabien Rousseau:

Eventually, I landed in a Graphic Design study and rapidly understood that illustration was the thing I was most excited about. After school, I was digging interactive design so I started to work as a freelance UX Designer/Web Developer. I loved learning to code and at the same time, I was putting more and more motion into it.

I learned illustration and animation in my free time, with tutorials, practice, and any advice I could get. I always thought of animation as an unreachable job I couldn’t even dream of because my drawing skills weren’t great. But as soon I succeeded in making my first frame loop, I knew I would do everything to make it my daily activity. It has only been three years that I have been working as an animator, it’s a step-by-step journey.

Madison Caprara:

Now, how would you describe your style to those who may be unfamiliar?

Fabien Rousseau:

Dang, already one of the most difficult questions! I’ve always done many different things, and I don't have a proper signature style like many illustrators I admire. Though I can say I have recurring themes as they’re most often character-driven and related to music. I love playing with loops, shapes, bright colors, silly moves, smoothness, and... yeah, bouncy tings (mostly butts)!

The truth is, I get bored way too fast. I enjoy changing my approach on every project, and style is a part of it. I have buddies working on animated featured films and I’m amazed by their ability to stick to the same project or role for months—or even years. I already feel washed out if I have to do the same thing for more than one week.

Madison Caprara:

Fair! I myself find it extremely difficult to focus on the same task for weeks on end. It’s something I’m so impressed by when I see the dash staff working on a project for (what feels like) months at a time.

Madison Caprara:

If you had to narrow down your “specialty,” what would it be?

Fabien Rousseau:

My specialty is...being a generalist. Wait! What I’m trying to say is that with my different skills, I’ve become pretty good at problem-solving—I know it sounds extremely LinkedIn-y, but bear with me.

I often make unexpected connections, find new ways, workarounds, or hacks to achieve a goal. I feel like I’m closing the gap between a developer's and designer’s minds. That’s why I’m not putting up a lot of barriers when I want to create something new. Having an idea that may seem out of hand in the first place, really may just need to be deconstructed into smaller pieces. I embrace the feeling of being lost and go for it; doing loads of research and “trusting the process.” In the end, I try to make discomfort a cozy place.

That being said, I am more specialized than I was a few years ago. It’s hard to stay a decent designer when you spend most of your time animating. My illustrator friends are now way too good so I’m just happy they let me animate their work, but I’m still trying to do solo personal projects. It’s only a matter of balance, I guess.

Madison Caprara:

Moving on to your career, what do you see as being your first “big break” in the industry?

Fabien Rousseau:

I guess it would be that dumb walking pigeon (and I see dumb as a compliment). It might sound silly because it’s such a small loop and just a couple of days of work, but the response was so unexpected. It’s amazing that many people have actually seen it! I even got to teach an online course about it, and I still see hilarious versions popping on my IG feed.

Madison Caprara:

I love that! Other than the pigeon, what is your favorite work you have ever created or been a part of?

Fabien Rousseau:

It would be our Bee Jizz collab with my talented friend Xerxes Heirman. It was the first time I was directing an ambitious video like this. It’s a blend between cel animation, classic AE, expression rigs, and creative technology. I wanted a convincing risograph look, and that led to a lot of cool researches.

It was supposed to be a bigger piece about self-expectation, dopamine, and anxiety, but in the end, we only did the trailer. What a twist! Sometimes you have to let it go and release it, which was actually a good ending considering the thematics.

Bee Jizz (Teaser), 2020. Direction, Animation, Design | Fabien Rousseau, Illustration | Xerxes Heirman.

Madison Caprara:

That’s such a fun piece!

You are currently freelance, correct? What did that journey like for you? Have you ever worked for an overarching company or studio?

Fabien Rousseau:

I’ve always been freelance, straight from school! Boy, it was not an easy ride. I think my work is so bonded to my mental health that I never could work on a “bread-and-butter” job without being completely depressed. That means having only a few paid gigs and tough months for a pretty long time. I’m aware that’s still a big privilege, so I find myself very lucky to spend the majority of my work in fulfilling jobs.

And I’m doing better now! I worked on an awesome 12-month project with my buddy, Renaud Lavency, in 2020 (too bad it’s under NDA). It’s been a year since I started working with studios that I admire; Buck and Oddfellows. A blast so far! I’m closer than ever to trying an in-house experience. I know I will learn a lot doing so.

Madison Caprara:

That’s amazing, congrats on your success!

Is freelancing something you would recommend doing at least once for all creatives?

Fabien Rousseau:

I’m always the first to recommend people quitting their job if they feel unhappy. Elise Leonard who got me this interview (thank you Elise!) can bear witness to this. But I know freelancing can be very stressful for a ton of reasons. You can run a self-employed business with thousands of different approaches. Everyone is different. And let’s not forget it’s not an equal status in every country.

Madison Caprara:

Are there any current trends that are changing the nature of your role? How do you feel about them?

Fabien Rousseau:

I see you coming with the NFT talk! It’s definitely changing how artists embody their personal work, and that’s great for some of us. But the biggest change for me has been the dawn of remote work within the last two years. The workload increased and studios have been more likely to hire freelancers from around the world.

That also leads to new forms of workspaces. I’m part of a freelancer’s workshop—let’s call it “palancing”—which is basically sharing a studio with my buddies. We currently have nine people working in different fields such as commercial animation, illustration, design, print, photo, animated feature films…Even if we don’t work on the same projects, I share so many things with these guys. We live together as a big family, and I spend more time in our workspace than at my own place.

Madison Caprara:

It’s so great to have that professional support system to lean on, doubly so if you all are genuinely friends!

What about tools? They’re constantly evolving within this industry. With these developments, how do you see the role of animator/illustrator subsequently evolving?

Fabien Rousseau:

Yes, tools! I love them for what they are: bridges between mind and craft. You can cross a river with different bridges and have different results, but what matters is that you’re on the other side.

I fancy procedural and computer-generated thingies. Sometimes I prefer trying to automate a task with code rather than doing it by hand, even if that sometimes takes longer. I do this because I hate doing the same thing twice, and I will have learned something in the process. Also, generated art sometimes produces more natural results than the human eye.

On the other end of the spectrum, learning cel animation is teaching me to trust. It doesn’t rely on tools, you need only very basic apps to get started. It’s soothing to “know” things for real, as some rules were described decades or centuries ago and they are still relevant. I love the fact that you can hone a craft and time or technology have a minor effect on it.

Wave IQ - Tookie Tookie Pt. 2 - Visualizer, 2020. Fabien Rousseau.

Madison Caprara:

What would you say is your biggest accomplishment, and on the flip side, your biggest regret?

Fabien Rousseau:

Three years ago I was working at home, and I didn’t have a lot of friends. My weeks were sometimes gloomy and it felt as if it wasn’t going anywhere. I started to reach out to folks that were living in Brussels, from whom I loved their work. We met, and a few weeks later I was organizing meetup nights that were open to a broader audience of creatives. This is how L’Enroule was born! From there, we’ve created an intertwined process of relationships and projects. A big part of my life now has unfolded from this decision.

I only have small regrets, which is nice! The first is that I never really had a mentor. Thankfully, animation is one of the friendliest communities. We’re always keen on helping each other. The second has to do with unreleased, unfinished, or NDA-barred projects, but I’ve learned my lessons.

Madison Caprara:

Where do you go for inspiration when you find yourself in a creative rut?

Fabien Rousseau:

For a long time, I had told myself that my stories weren’t worth telling. Now, I put away my logic and focus on emotion. It feels more natural. Once I get this flow going, ideas seem to come together pretty magically. I have a very (very) long list of pending projects waiting to be tackled.

The downside is that I am more likely to overwork myself. While I’m conscious of it, it’s still a big unhealthy habit I’m trying to cut. When I feel burned out I usually let other senses take over. I enjoy cooking a lot because taste and smell take up different energy. It’s really refreshing. I also love gardening, especially growing stuff to eat, and tinkering in my small woodworking shop.

I’m convinced that I won’t be animating forever. I'm 31 and already feel like an old guy in this job. I like the idea of leaving the "industry" before becoming that grumpy dude in the corner of the room. I’d probably prefer to fill people’s bellies when the time comes. The question is if I become a chef, will I be a specialist or a generalist?

Madison Caprara:

I love that for you! I’ve had my own pipedream of opening a bakery one day.

We’re reaching the end of our time together, Fabien. Before we wrap up, is there anything you would like to end on?

Fabien Rousseau:

The last few years have been rough for a lot of folks, especially on the social side. I’m a fervent advocate of surrounding yourself with friends at work. Remember, butts are fun because they come with two cheeks. We don’t have to be alone in this. Have fun, cherish your community, and let’s build a world of happy palancers!

Showreel Summer, 2020. Fabien Rousseau.

Guest User 11/23/21 Guest User 11/23/21

Takeover Tuesday with Sazan Pasori

Q&A with Sazan Pasori, an Animator, Designer, and Art Director based in Los Angeles.

Q&A with Sazan Pasori
Read time: 5min

Madison Caprara:

Hi, Sazan! Why don’t you give us a little introduction to yourself to start us off?

Sazan Pasori:

My name is Sazan (pronounced SUH-zan). I’m an Art Director and Motion Designer based in Los Angeles. I’m a lover of color and art that doesn’t take itself too seriously. I feel lucky to get to make fun little animations for a job, but I think even if I didn’t work in this industry, I would be pulled to create things. It really feels like a compulsion!

Madison Caprara:

What education route did you end up going down, and how do you feel that experience has helped you develop as a creative?

Sazan Pasori:

I went to college at the University of San Francisco, where I studied creative writing and graphic design. I didn’t really know what I wanted out of a career, but I would lose track of time writing and designing, and figured if I could combine the two somehow down the line, that would be a pretty cool career. I eventually landed on motion design/animation/art direction after moonlighting in visual merchandising, copywriting, and creative strategy. Some motion designers I had met also encouraged me to try it out. It felt like an “a-ha” moment. I quickly dove into YouTube tutorials and animation boot camps and got totally hooked. The rest is herstory!

Madison Caprara:

Now, a lot of art directors have pretty diverse backgrounds--such as yourself! What do you think are some key qualities or experiences that good AD’s have in common?

Sazan Pasori:

In my opinion, the best art directors have a combination of instinct and discipline. Generally, they’re creative people with “an eye,” but the best ones spend lots of time researching references, developing their craft, and continually evolving/improving their output. I aspire to be this kind of art director!

Madison Caprara:

Having to wear so many hats, do you have a favorite niche or role to work within?

Sazan Pasori:

I’m a believer in the oneness of creative pursuits...I guess what I’m trying to say is that I don’t have a favorite!

Lately, I’ve really enjoyed directing and making music! Growing up, my dad spoke a lot of different languages and said the more he acquired, the next language he learned came to him easier. I feel creative pursuits are the same. I love exploring new applications of expression.

Madison Caprara:

What’s it like to work for GIPHY? Give us the lowdown.

Sazan Pasori:

Working at GIPHY is like working at a wacky animated online library. I’m just one of the librarians.

Madison Caprara:

So fun! What is it about GIFs that make them so popular in everyday conversation, in your opinion?

Sazan Pasori:

The English language can sometimes fail to capture subtle moments and feelings. GIFs give you the satisfaction of specificity, physical expression, and relatability.

Madison Caprara:

What has been your favorite, or most memorable, project to date?

Sazan Pasori:

This year I co-directed an animated short with my GIPHY colleague, Tianna Harvey, titled, Blobs in Space. The one-minute animation is a 2D/3D ballad turned disco bop about connection in the time of COVID-19. Check it out! It’s a hilarious and tragic little journey.

Madison Caprara:

Pivoting back to your role, what are some of the most unexpected challenges or frustrations you have had to deal with?

Sazan Pasori:

I think artists of all kinds feel an immense amount of pressure to constantly produce new work (I know I struggle with this). I’ve definitely suffered from burnout and am working towards a life where rest and recovery are critical parts of my creative process.

Madison Caprara:

Who are some of your biggest artistic influences?

Sazan Pasori:

Everybody who knows me knows I’m a supa dupa mega Missy Elliott stan. She is my idol! Her multi-hyphenate background and out-of-the-box approach still feel like the future.

Madison Caprara:

What are some of your top career goals? Are there any you have already achieved?

Sazan Pasori:

In my opinion “career goals,” are better framed as “creative pursuits,” as I mentioned previously. A career is so tied up in your livelihood—how can my job pay my bills, you know? When you try to tie your livelihood and identity to a career...and your goals! WHEW! Now you’re simply asking too much from your career.

As far as my “career goals” go though, I’ve made it! I get to make things and get paid enough to live my life. In the future, I’d love to make longer-form content and experiment more with analog techniques.

Madison Caprara:

That’s a really healthy way to look at your career. We do have a tendency to make our job titles and identities synonymous.

Do you have any advice for aspiring art directors?

Sazan Pasori:

My advice would be to just start making things! When I first started out as a designer, I was terrified to even put pen to paper. Sure, a lot of the stuff I made at first sucked, but you have to push through that initial stage until you start making things that look cool.

Madison Caprara:

Great advice!

Now, as we start to wrap it up, is there anything in particular that you would like to end this interview on?

Sazan Pasori:

A quote that has brought me immense comfort as a creative and as a person is: “Whatever it is you’re seeking, won’t come in the form you’re expecting.”

The quote is by fiction author, Haruki Murakami, and reminds me to ease up a little and let things play out. White knuckling a project, your career, or life won’t change it’s outcome.

Guest User 10/12/21 Guest User 10/12/21

Takeover Tuesday with Luddo

Q&A with Luddo, a Freelance Illustrator and Designer based in Buenos Aires, Argentina.

Luddo's work illustrates the contemporary world of fashion and products, combining playful abstractions and relaxed characters with bold and pastel color compositions. The majority of her work is in fashion illustration and surface design for packaging and branding. She defines herself as a lover of interior design, fashion, and product trends.

Q&A with Luddo
Read time: 5min

Madison Caprara:

Hey, Luddo! Thanks for taking the time to chat with me! Why don’t you give us a little introduction to yourself and your work?

Luddo:

Hey! Thanks for having me. I’m Luddo, a Designer and Illustrator based in Buenos Aires, Argentina. My work illustrates the contemporary world of fashion and products, combining playful abstractions and relaxed characters with funky color compositions. I am always looking for new ways in which I can play around with color!

I identify as a lover of interior design, fashion, and new product trends. I love bringing these passions into my characters and environments while creating a world that I can feel personally related to.

Madison Caprara:

How did you originally find yourself in the creative industry?

Luddo:

I always knew that I wanted to be in a creative field, but it took me some time to define which path I naturally wanted to be a part of. I have a degree in Industrial Design, so that first lead me to working as an Art Director at a stationery brand. With that work, I came to understand that I really loved the graphic side of the products. That understanding lead me to branding, and finally, illustration, which is what I specialize in nowadays. Looking back, I just allowed myself to move forward in what I was most interested in. At the end of the day, it is amazingly satisfying to be working in what I loved doing most as a child--we should acknowledge those early signs more often.

Madison Caprara:

I agree! Too often, I think, adults brush off children’s interests as fleeting hobbies.

Your work is really interesting! I get the sense that you primarily work within the fashion realm, both for clothes and product branding. Was this decision intentional? After recognizing your love for illustration, did you go in realizing that the fashion industry was the sector you were most interested in, or was it something realized with time?

Luddo:

I always loved fashion, and at the same time, I try to illustrate my world of interests. That being said, it's something that came naturally to me. If I’m obsessed with any outfits or trends, you’ll definitely see it in my work! I remember when I was around 10 years old, I had a sketchbook in which I created outfits for characters. So happily, that hasn’t changed much.

Madison Caprara:

Speaking of product branding, you have your shop where folks can purchase home decor with your designs. How did you find yourself getting into product sales?

Luddo:

As I come from the product field, I find it amazing when you can create personalized products with your illustrations. Seeing your art come to life is really satisfying. Apart from my actual shop, I also love to work on projects that involve materializing my illustrations in other mediums. As a fashion lover, it would be amazing to work with clothing someday.

Madison Caprara:

Is there a distinct difference between creating for your own products and clients? Do you have a preference?

Luddo:

Yes! Working with your own personal products is more open. You can be involved in every decision and detail. But when it comes to client products, it’s more common to be given a single area in which the graphics will be applied. Usually, the canvas of the product is already designed and involves really small costs that were analyzed internally to be able to mass-produce it.

Madison Caprara:

Do you have any advice for other creatives who may be interested in applying their works to personal product sales?

Luddo:

I would say that creativity is all about practice and trying new things, so move forward!

Also, I think that personal projects are an amazing tool to showcase yourself as the best creative version of what you want to be. No one is involved there so you can truly show 100% of yourself. Use that chance to show the kind of work you want to be hired for.

Madison Caprara:

When working on your own personal projects, do you have a favorite subject matter you like to work with? Any particular passions?

Luddo:

The subject always changes, so I can focus on a new thing that I want to showcase or current obsessions that I need to express. I love doing personal projects, though! They are really important for my growth.

Madison Caprara:

Now, are you currently working as a freelancer?

Luddo:

Yes! I'm full-time freelancing right now, however, this change is pretty recent. I'm really enjoying my first year on my own. I'm happy to have taken this big step, my work has grown so much this year and I am excited to soon show the new projects I've been working on!

Madison Caprara:

Congratulations on taking the plunge! What sparked the change?

Luddo:

I've worked within a company for five years and I felt it was time to follow another direction. I needed to make my side job my full-time. It was the only way to grow with what I wanted to do, so for my birthday, I said, “ok, let's do this!”

Madison Caprara:

I’m sure that felt crazy liberating!

Looking at some of your freelance work, who has been your favorite client or project?

Luddo:

I've worked with Badoo dating on a new project that I'm excited to share soon.

Madison Caprara:

We’ll definitely be keeping an eye out for that one.

Now you said you are currently based in Buenos Aires, yes? What is the creative industry like there?

Luddo:

The creative industry in Argentina in general has amazing artists! There is so much talent! Our industry is beginning to open up to working more on worldwide and international projects, so I'm really happy that we are showing our voices and perspectives to the world.

Madison Caprara:

Where do you find yourself seeking inspiration when in a creative rut?

Luddo:

I would say that I use Pinterest and Instagram to see images that inspire me. But when I need clarity, I'm more about just going to walk my dog, or in general, leaving the screens. That usually brings me better ideas.

Madison Caprara:

I really appreciate you taking the time for a chat, Luddo. We’re reaching the tail end of this Q&A. Before we sign off, do you have any closing statements or advice you’d like to share?

Luddo:

Keep moving forward! Everything will find its place along the way.

Guest User 9/5/21 Guest User 9/5/21

The Start of STATE, with Dash Bash speaker, Marcel Ziul

Meryn Hayes had a chat with Marcel Ziul, Creative Director and Founder of STATE.

Growing up in the suburbs of Sao Paulo, Ziul moved to the U.S. in 2007 after working with some of the top studios in Brazil. Read on to learn more about his journey and how STATE came to be.

Q&A with Marcel Ziul
Read time: 10 min

Screen Shot 2021-09-02 at 2.39.16 PM.png

Meryn Hayes:

Today I’m speaking with Marcel Ziul from STATE design, welcome.

Marcel Ziul:

Thanks for having me.

Meryn Hayes:

Marcel is a Creative Director and founder of STATE. Growing up in the suburbs of Sao Paulo, he moved to the U.S. in 2007. As a freelancer, he has contributed his talents to Prologue Films, Stardust, Zoic Studios, Troika, Shilo, Apple, MAL/TBWA, and Bigstar, where he served as an Art Director and Lead Animator on the Bio Channel rebrand.

Marcel’s amazing work is highlighted by several awards and nominations.

Meryn Hayes:

We're so excited. The Bash is getting close. I feel like we've been planning it for so long and now it's actually happening. The more we talk to our speakers, the more excited I'm getting, and the less stressed I'm feeling about the logistics.

Marcel Ziul:

I know. It's exciting. I was thinking the other day, the conference is happening in September, but September is already here. Now I need to take a look at my keynotes.

Meryn Hayes:

It's time to start prepping.

Marcel Ziul:

Exactly.

Meryn Hayes:

Awesome. Do you want to tell us a little bit about yourself and how you got into the industry?

Marcel Ziul:

Yeah. I joined the industry totally out of the blue. I was going to med school, actually, and realized that it wasn't for me. My dad saw me through that process. He owned clubs back in Brazil and I used to do all the flyers for them. He was like, “dude, you love designing, why don't you talk to a friend of mine who has a studio? Maybe he can get you an internship?" I went there, talked to the guy, and started as their PA. I was doing things for shoots, organizing cables, all of that.

I would stay at the studio from 6 AM until I finished my shift at 6 PM. Even then, I’d stay longer to go to the post-production room to ask the guys questions. I was doing tutorials at that time. One day the main 3D guy was on vacation and they had to animate a logo. My boss needed to find a freelancer and asked if anyone knew someone that could tackle it. I said, "I can do it, I've been doing tutorials. I can do this thing." It came out good. From there, I was promoted to the post-production side.

Marcel Ziul:

This was all in my hometown. My town is medium-sized. It has almost a million people and is close to Sao Paulo, but the industry is super small. It's not big, so I wanted to go somewhere else. I moved to Sao Paulo and started working with bigger shops, doing my thing. After that, I went to Rio to work in this big production house. Then I moved to LA. Here I am.

Meryn Hayes:

That's awesome. It's so interesting, I've talked with a few people throughout the industry about this. Sometimes when people are getting started in their careers, they realize something's just not working. For example, you tried med school…It’s easy to think of these times as points where we're failing ourselves.

I started out doing photography and realized halfway through college that I didn’t want to move to New York to be a photographer. I was really hard on myself but realized through those curves of my career path that finding out what you don't want to do is as important as finding out what you do want to do. You find your way to where you're supposed to be through those challenges and moments where you're identifying, “Is this what I want for myself?”

Meryn Hayes:

Med school is a really big deal and hard to get into. Was that a tough decision for you? It sounds like you had a lot of support from your family, which I'm sure helped.

Marcel Ziul:

Well, it wasn't a hard decision for me. You're right about knowing what you don't like to do. It's important. I usually say this to clients when I present something for them, let's say, mood boards. I say, if you don't know what you like, just tell me what you don't like.

Meryn Hayes:

Totally.

Marcel Ziul:

But in regards to transitioning from med school to this industry, I don't think it was a hard decision. It was a moment of clarity. When I think back, my dad had such a vision, that he too realized, "Dude, you don't like this. Why are you going to continue?" It's also hard to be 100% sure of what you're going to do when you're younger. We all carry that pressure and feel that we need to know.

“STATE, meaning the state of mind, or ‘this is your state.’ this is a place where you can come and be yourself…”

No, sometimes you need to make decisions and that's the beauty of this thing, you can just re-correct. When I started working at the studio, I could tell it was right because I was putting in so many hours after work. Let's say I would work in the studio from 9 AM to 6 PM and then at 6 PM, I would go to the post-production division and stay there with the guys. I was putting in all the hours. It was a passion. To me, it was an easy decision.

Meryn Hayes:

That's so interesting. Then what? You moved to LA. What year was that?

Marcel Ziul:

I moved to LA in 2007--I'm going to talk about this in my keynote. The funny thing is that in Brazil, things are so different. There is a lack of planning, not that the U.S. has the best planning efforts, but we plan stuff better here in the States than in Brazil. I got tired of that. I got tired of the disorganization, working crazy hours, and having no weekends for six months. It was time for me to go and do other things. I was in between the U.S. and Australia.

Marcel Ziul:

I had a studio in Sydney that wanted to hire me, but I was really into the studios here in the U.S. I came to LA and met with a studio called Belief. It's old. I don't think people are going to remember it, but Belief was like BUCK back in the day; the go-to studio. Everyone wanted to work there.

I talked to Belief and they wanted to hire me. It was so awesome. I went back to Brazil and said, "Well, I'm moving to the States. Bye." They did all of my paperwork because it's such a big deal. One thing that people here in the U.S. don't realize is that when you hire someone from a different country, it is a big deal for a foreigner. You have no clue. I remember going to my farewell party with all of my friends and family there. Everyone was crying. It's not an easy thing to do. It's not like moving from New York to LA.

Marcel Ziul:

For us, it's a huge deal. I would never have expected that I would be here for this much time, but I love it. I would stay longer for sure.

Meryn Hayes:

So you were working in LA, what led to the start of STATE? How did that happen?

Marcel Ziul:

That's an interesting question. It was mid-2013, until that point, I was a freelancer. I was also doing projects on the side with a friend of mine, Marcos, who's an amazing Art Director and Creative Director--he's awesome, we're still friends. We were doing projects on the side where we would get the overflow work from studios and do it ourselves. We had a space and it was like we were in this limbo mode: do a project, go back to freelancing with studios, do another project, more freelancing. I got tired of it. This whole movement. We weren’t a studio and we weren’t freelancing a hundred percent.

I felt the necessity to create something I could put all of my time into. I talked to a friend of mine about building a studio. He wasn't ready for that. He wanted to be a director. So, I decided to move to New York. I was tired of LA; Hollywood, the flashy people. I wanted to go somewhere else, but then something crazy happened. I was doing my green card at the time and I needed letters of support to show to immigration so that I could stay in the U.S. as a resident.

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Marcel Ziul:

I called the NFL and asked, "Hey, you guys tried to hire me in the past. Could you write me a letter stating that?" The guy never got back to me. Two weeks go by, I'm like, "Oh snap." I sent another email. Finally, he responded and asked if I could come by the next day. I showed up and he started talking to me about a project I had no idea about. I asked why he was talking to me about a project when I had come for a letter. I didn’t get it. He was like, "Letter, what letter? Dude, I thought you were here for work.” He ended up giving me the letter and telling me he’d call in a month.

Marcel Ziul:

A month later, he called me with a project. By then I had realized that I did not want to work with a friend of mine. I wanted to build something. My wife came to me and said, "Hey, I can be the producer on the project. Then we can hire other people. What do you think?" I agreed and we took on the first project. We did another one and another after that. We did maybe three to four projects with the NFL when one day, Carlos came to me with an offer.

Carlos was a client of the NFL. He's an amazing friend. I love that guy so much. He came to me with “the biggest project of the season.” No pitch needed, he wanted to give it to me. The only kicker was that I couldn’t work from home. I needed to have a space because he needed to be able to take his boss to an official office. With bigger projects, you need more stuff.

Meryn Hayes:

Show me you're legitimate.

Marcel Ziul:

He gave me two weeks to pull that together. One of the producers on the NFL side was a friend of mine--Joe Nash. He's now an Executive Producer at BUCK, but back then he was leaving the NFL. Carlos suggested Joe and I get together to do the project. Joe came to work as the producer and then we got a space together.

It felt right. We loved working together. We loved each other. We asked ourselves, “Why don't we become partners and build a studio?” Then, STATE was born. It happened out of the blue. It wasn't something planned or structured.

Meryn Hayes:

It's funny. There are a lot of ways to start a studio, but that's similar to what happened with Mack and Cory. They were working at an agency--that's where I met them--they got a project that they were going to take on freelance, and they decided they were going to leave the agency to do it. Then, they started working together and ‘Mack and Cory’ turned into dash. How long were y'all working together on that project for the NFL?

Marcel Ziul:

We worked on the project for about four months. It was huge. We had to shoot and everything. In the middle of this whole project, we liked working together so much. Joe and I were like, “oh man, now let's get a space, and let's keep this going. You're the Creative Director, I'm the EP, let's go.” He started doing business development, and we began to get a bunch of small projects. Like really small projects, but for us it was awesome.

Joe was with STATE for another year, then I think...I don't know. I don't want to put words in his mouth, but I think it was too much for him to be the owner. The responsibility and the hours. Once you become the owner of the studio, there's no more nine to six. It's nine to whatever. Joe decided to leave because he wanted to do something else. He wanted to be a farmer. He went back to Connecticut to pursue that.

Meryn Hayes:

That's awesome!

So, where does STATE’s name come from? How did y'all come up with that?

Marcel Ziul:

It's funny because we had another art director who was supposed to be with us as a partner. The three of us were all trying to bounce names around and what we came with was just bad. We came up with ridiculous names and Joe's mom, she's a consultant for Google, was like, "send me your name ideas and I'll let you know if you guys are heading to the right direction,” as far as branding and recognition go. We sent the names to her and she told us they were all terrible. Eventually, we came up with STATE, meaning the state of mind, or ‘this is your state.’ This is a place where you can come and be yourself, something like that. She liked it! Short, strong, and has good meaning behind it.

Meryn Hayes:

Awesome. In the beginning, those early days, what were some of the challenges you didn't expect to be dealing with?

Marcel Ziul:

Well, there's a funny story. We started our studio. Right? Cool. We booked a few freelancers. I was working one day and one of them came to me and said, "Hey, Marcel, can I talk to you?" All I could think about was how awesome this was. He was running a project at MY studio, and now he needs to talk to me. He comes to me, and he's like, "Hey we need toilet paper." I'm like, "Oh God, this is the shit that we have to deal with."

That was the first wake-up call. I realized that we needed to take care of the space and have things in place. Structured. Having a studio is like having a kid. I mean, I have two kids and love them to death. They are my life, but it's so hard as a parent because it's a 24-hour thing. I'm always there and always taking care of them--they're two and six. The company is the same. If I tell someone who wants to have a kid how hard it is, people will never have kids.

Marcel Ziul:

They'll be like, “Forget about this. You're not going to sleep. You're going to do this. You're going to do that. Whatever.” Having a company is the same.

Meryn Hayes:

Same way.

“…when something becomes a business, a really big business, it loses its soul.”

Marcel Ziul:

It's the same way. There are hard problems. If someone tells you beforehand, you wouldn’t want to have a studio, but I think the biggest fear for me, in the beginning, was the cash flow. We got projects and you feel good, but now you need money to produce the projects. You need to have money to finance the project, then get paid later. We have to develop a system for that. It was pretty cool, but for me, just that anxiety of not knowing was hard. The business side of it was pretty intense.

Meryn Hayes:

I have a four-and-a-half-year-old, and I can totally empathize. I think for so long, I felt like a bad mom because nobody talks about how hard it is. I was just like, “is it me?” Then I realized that nobody talks about it. It's just hard. I like that comparison, that if people talked about how hard it was to start a business or a studio, they wouldn't do it because it is hard.

Mack and Cory, when I met them, they were animators. Now they own this business. They can empathize with the whole mindset shifting from a creative to the business side and how different that is. Do you feel you just had to figure it out on your own? Or did you have resources early on that were helping you figure out the business side of things? Because that's just something that if you're not used to it, it's out of left field for a lot of creatives.

Marcel Ziul:

This is a good question because I never understood what my dad used to do with me in terms of preparing me for the world. He always had his own business and he was always teaching me things. I remember going to my dad’s work helping him at his business and I would complain about something. I'd be like, "Hey dad, did you see that thing is broken?" He would be like, "You already identified that it's broken. Why don't you go and fix it? You know the problem. How do you solve it?" He was always giving me that mindset. I used to hate when he would say that to me.

Then when I started running STATE, I realized how necessary those lessons were, because I saw all the problems and was already thinking about how to solve them. The transition from being an artist to a business owner wasn't that hard for me because I was trained for it by my parents. But if you're not ready, some give up along the way.

Marcel Ziul:

I think the biggest hurdle I had to overcome was learning when to be the creative director and when to be the owner. It's like being an animator and a designer at the same time.

Meryn Hayes:

That's so interesting and such an important mindset because again, you're trying to make the best creative possible. Taking the side of the business, which might impact what you'd say about the creative direction and focusing on the project or the client or the creative or whatever the task is. To your point, you can figure out the logistics or the cost or the extra stuff on the other side, but to focus on the creative, to make sure that it really shines through. That's great advice. How big is the studio now?

Marcel Ziul:

I think STATE has a staff of 20 to 25 now.

Meryn Hayes:

In those early days, how conscious were you of how many you wanted on staff? Was growth more so based on the creative needs for client work and projects?

Marcel Ziul:

Our biggest thing when building the studio was going back to how we started this conversation--we knew what we didn't want to be. We didn't want to be like the big studios because I believe that when something becomes a business, a really big business, it loses its soul. Most of this is because I believe that when clients look at STATE, they can see our soul. They can see how much heart we put into our projects. I always thought that if we got too big, we would lose that component, which is so important to me.

I never thought about having a studio with 25 people. Did I want to have a studio that had 50 people? Maybe not, maybe I'm fine with 25, maybe I'm fine with 20. Maybe I'm fine with 15. To me, it's all about measuring how much heart is still coming out of STATE. If we’re still producing with passion and people can see our soul, cool. If that component starts getting lost, then we're getting too big in terms of structure. But I never had that mindset of exactly how many people we needed.

Meryn Hayes:

That's great. I’ll probably steal that quote. I love that. Measuring how much heart. Sometimes people can get too caught up in the tangible aspect. I mean, I understand businesses have to be tangible for many reasons, but I love the idea of keeping on the pulse of how it’s feeling. The soul of the work that's coming out. So, you were in New York when you started and now you're back in LA. Is that right?

Marcel Ziul:

No. I never moved to New York. I was moving but then…

Meryn Hayes:

Then STATE was born, so you never left.

Marcel Ziul:

Yeah. Never did.

Meryn Hayes:

I was like, “how did you get back to LA?” But you never left.

Marcel Ziul:

Never left. We never made the move, which is something that, every time I go to New York, is the biggest frustration of my life. I never lived in the city. I think I needed that, but it's fine. Now I'm at a different point in my life. I can go to New York anytime.

Just quickly going back to that heart thing, I was talking to a friend of mine the other day. This guy is so amazing. He’s unbelievable. Every time I talk to him, he’s like, “I have three businesses. Now, I have five businesses.” He's always building. At one point, he was going through a rough time. He has a studio back home, back in Brazil. I told him this. I said, "You know what's happening with you? You were putting money ahead of everything. Your end goal is always cash. I can guarantee to you I never put money ahead of STATE, no." I said, “all you have to do is work hard, and love what you do. Do you show up excited about this business? Can people see that through your words? Through your work? Through your conversations? Yes?” If people see that, money becomes a consequence.

“when you say no to others, you're saying yes to yourself. we look at ‘no’ as a crime…those ‘nos’ got me here.”

Marcel Ziul:

Like at STATE, if you could see the amount of work that we say no to because these projects have nothing to do with what we are. They’re just going to be about the money. If it's just money, you lose the soul. We're not doing our thing. It misses the mission statement of the studio which is what’s important. A few days later, he called me. He had gotten rid of two of his businesses and is now just focusing on the studio.

Meryn Hayes:

That's great. That's something that I think is difficult for people, in general, to say no to from a business perspective. Especially for people who are just starting in their freelance career or are just starting a studio. Saying no is especially hard because of the money. Do you think that that's something that's gotten easier? Or would you say that y'all were just as willing to say “no” early on to keep up with the soul of the studio? Has it gotten any easier over time?

Marcel Ziul:

It gets easier. My wife once said something to me that was cool. She said, “when you say no to others, you're saying yes to yourself.” We look at “no” as a crime. My whole keynote at the Dash Bash should be talking about the power of “no”. How “no” got me here. Am I the most successful studio out there? No. Am I the most successful person to myself? Maybe, yes? I'm happy with me. Those “no’s” got me here.

Even the way that you take on rejection is important. For example, I've seen people when they lose pitches. They get so mad. But there's always a victory when pitching. You pitch them something and if you get a “no”, you go back and ask why you got the rejection from your client. Is it because of your idea? Was it because of a business relationship? You find so many important answers through “nos” that we don't even realize.

Meryn Hayes:

I love that. The introspection. It's so easy to get caught up in why you didn't win a pitch or why the client didn't like something. But I really appreciate the introspection of learning from why something didn’t work.

Early on as a Producer, I didn't know how to talk to clients or I didn't know the answer to a question. Just take a breath. Take a minute and figure it out. Learn from whatever the client is saying or the issue and you can move forward. We sometimes feel as if we need to say “yes” or have an answer right away. There's that service side of what we do that pushes people to overcome it or to say that they know how to do something when they don't. To your point of being introspective and taking a look at why we are doing something, that's meaningful.

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Marcel Ziul:

When we do post mortem on a project--we do that a lot at STATE--after we finish a project, we get everyone together and talk about it. What did we learn? We did a project for this big client that I'm not going to disclose because, of course, they're my friends, but we did a project for this big client. I was trying to work with them for five years. Five years! Going to meetings, visiting, taking them to lunches and dinners, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, everything. We got the project. That's cool. We start the project. Good budget and everything, and then financially, the project was a disaster.

How the hell we blew up that budget, I didn't understand. Looking back, the client was confused most of the time. They didn't know what they wanted. I think they became so excited about the relationship, that when they got to work with us, they wanted to do everything at once. After we delivered the project, we came back to our post-mortem to talk about it and something that came to my mind was the price of education. We pay for education. You go to college, you pay. You want to take a class, you pay. It's the same thing in business. Sometimes you have to pay to learn from your clients.

Marcel Ziul:

So, we blew up the budget. There's a way to go about processing that. You can either look at it as you blew it up because you did the project wrong, OR you can see it as a learning experience. We were learning how to work with that particular client. Now, if we do another project with them, we know how they work. You can always see things as an absolute failure or you can analyze the negativity that came with it. There's always something that you learn through mistakes.

Meryn Hayes:

That's so true. The value of a project, even when it doesn't go right, is that you learned how to work with the other person, which is different from client to client. Sometimes when you're going through it, it's a struggle. Then you're able to step back and breathe and really look retrospectively. Do you always do post mortems with the clients?

“we pay for education. you go to college, you pay. you want to take a class, you pay. it's the same thing in business. sometimes you have to pay to learn your clients.”

Marcel Ziul:

Only sometimes with the clients. Some clients are not open to it. We always do it internally though because there's always something you're going to take away. When you're in the middle of a project, it can feel pretty awkward and uncomfortable. What I learned is that the biggest issue with our industry, there are a lot, but the biggest issue is communication.

For example, let's talk about notes. You get a note from a client that has five paragraphs. All they want to say is to make the composition a little brighter. But instead of saying that in one sentence, they write a novel to you. Communication is a huge deal. Not a lot of people know how to communicate with a few words.

Meryn Hayes:

You have to translate what they're saying.

Marcel Ziul:

Then you read it and realize that all they want is to make that object in the background red.

Meryn Hayes:

It's like…you wrote all that to say that?

Thinking about the business side of what we do is something that's not learned in school. The other thing is communication and providing feedback. I went to art school for photography and we had all kinds of critiques, but it's not inherent. You have to learn to give good feedback. That goes both for other creatives and for clients. To your point, education is so important. Sometimes it's lost on us because we live in this world. We know what feedback we're looking for, but if this is the first time that the clients have worked with us or the first time they've ever done video animation, we forget that they might not know everything. You don't know what you don't know. That education is just so crucial.

Marcel Ziul:

This is so silly. How many times you were on a call and then the client gave you a note and you're like, “Okay, cool. No worries.” Then you hang up and you're like, “I have no clue.” It happens a lot.

Meryn Hayes:

It happened like three times today.

Marcel Ziul:

One way that I learned how to make sure you and the clients are on the same level is just through honesty. They give me a note that I don't understand, I tell them I don't understand it. There was a moment a couple of weeks ago, we were on a call with this huge client. He gave me an explanation of what he wanted and then asked if I understood. I immediately said, no. I could tell that he got uncomfortable. I was uncomfortable too. We were on the same level. We talked through the notes, and he explained it to me again. I went back to the team, fixed the problem, and sent it back. He was like, “dude, awesome, approved!”

Meryn Hayes:

Perfect.

Marcel Ziul:

If I had said okay and went back to my team, I would have had no clue what to do. All you want is to be on the same level as your client so that you can all understand each other, which is hard to do. It's not easy to say I don't understand. We feel the pressure to say we got it. We're so smart. We understand everything you say. No, sometimes there is confusion too.

Meryn Hayes:

Totally. It goes back to what I was thinking earlier, the pressure of feeling you're always supposed to know the answer. You can read the client's mind, it will, to your point, save a lot of back and forth and confusion to just clear the air and be like, “I don't understand.” But it's hard for people.

Marcel Ziul:

It's hard to be vulnerable. People are afraid and that goes back to what I was saying at the beginning. It's so key to feel comfortable being vulnerable. It's fine to not have an answer. I make bad decisions too. Sometimes I don't know what I'm doing and that’s ok.

Meryn Hayes:

That's so important. That's great. Let's see. How has the last year been for y'all? Do you feel the pandemic in the last 18 months has shifted how you work?

“it's hard to be vulnerable. people are afraid…it's so key to feel comfortable being vulnerable. it's fine to not have an answer. I make bad decisions too. sometimes I don't know what I'm doing and that’s ok.”

Marcel Ziul:

Well, yes and no. For STATE, diversity has always been a big thing for us. I have always worked with people from all around the world. I don’t care if someone is in whatever country, different times. I kick off artists at midnight. No problem. If they're in Europe and I want to work with someone there, I'll do it. In that aspect, it didn't change much.

What did take a little bit of time for the team was understanding how to work from home. It took us about one to two months to understand that flow. I have to say, workflow didn't change as much because we're always busy, but I did miss seeing other people. I'm a people person. I miss that interaction. But as far as the studio, it was a smooth transition. I care about how people feel these days, because of mental health, especially Zoom. I can do three Zooms in a row, but I need a 15-minute break after. I’ll even push calls unless it's with a client.

Marcel Ziul:

We had to adapt a little bit here and there, especially with the servers. I'm sure you guys have to do the same, but we had the system already set up. It wasn't that hard. The only big thing that happened was we signed a new lease for a new space a week before the lockdown.

Meryn Hayes:

No!

Marcel Ziul:

We have a new space that no one has ever been to.

Meryn Hayes:

Oh my gosh. That's wild.

Well, we are almost out of time, but I just want to say this was awesome. I am so looking forward to your presentation and hearing everybody celebrate and clap for you. We'll grab a beer after and celebrate. Thank you so much for giving all your insights. You have such an interesting story. I know everybody at the Bash is going to be stoked to hear what you have to say.

Marcel Ziul:

I'm super excited. I have so much respect for what you guys are doing, so whatever I can support I'll be up for it.

Meryn Hayes:

Thank you. We really appreciate that.

Marcel Ziul:

Bye Meryn, bye.

Meryn Hayes:

Bye.

Guest User 7/20/21 Guest User 7/20/21

Takeover Tuesday with Hend and Lamiaa

Q&A with Hend Esmat and Lamiaa Diab, a design & animation directing duo.

Q&A with Hend & Lamiaa.
Read time: 10min

Madison Caprara:

Hey guys! Why don’t you take a second to give us a bit of background on yourselves and your work?

Hend & Lamiaa:

Hello! We are Hend & Lamiaa, a design and animation directing duo. We are two friends who share a great passion for telling stories through colorful visuals and quirky characters, with a strong focus on projects with a social impact. We enjoy the vast range and power of animation in tackling diverse genres, from lighthearted topics to more serious ones, and are always up for the challenge with every project we embark on! We have directed and animated short films, explainers, and TV commercials as well as designed for children’s books and TV series.

Madison Caprara:
You both are originally from Egypt, correct? What is the animation scene like there? How radically does it differ from that in Bristol?

Hend & Lamiaa:

The animation scene in Egypt has been significantly growing in the past years. More specialized studios are forming, like Samaka and Giraffics, and some educational courses are being offered too. Something relatively new to our generation. The market is more driven towards advertising and post-production work though which can be quite limiting and competitive.

The biggest and most significant difference for us is the networking aspect, and being able to easily access a wider network of studios and potential clients. So consequently, we felt that being based in Bristol opened up more opportunities and diverse projects.

However, we have worked with clients from Egypt too while being based in Bristol and are still keen to continue doing so. We really hope to bridge the gap between the animation industry in Egypt with the international market and to help in linking talents across countries. It’s a milestone that we really hope to accomplish in our future plans.

Madison Caprara:

With how new the animation industry is in Egypt, how exactly did the two of you go about getting into the business together?

Hend & Lamiaa:

Back in 2009, we went to the same university in Cairo where we both were studying Media Design and Filmmaking. At some point, we realized that we had been going to the same school but did not know each other! There was only one animation course offered during the five-year BA program and we were both immediately drawn to animation from that point. We realized we shared the same passion in terms of style and interest, so we started working together on uni projects. Eventually, we began to take up freelancing jobs together.

It first started with small gigs from friends and family. Slowly we began to grow our network. In 2016 we both wanted to apply for Masters in Animation. We applied to several universities at the same time and luckily both received full scholarships to the same uni in Bristol, which immensely helped us in continuing to pave our path together! After our graduation in 2018, we applied for Launch Space, which provided us with support in growing our business and setting up a company in Bristol.

Madison Caprara:

It seems almost fated!

How do you go about allocating project tasks between the two of you?

Hend & Lamiaa:

We usually brainstorm together whenever there’s a brief or pitch. We like juggling ideas back and forth and scribbling down rough thumbnails. Once that part is set, we start dividing the work according to the schedule we have. Our roles usually cross over each other, and only recently have we tried to divide them a bit more to make sure we are more efficient and develop as a “business”.

So after brainstorming, usually Hend handles more of the scheduling, emailing, and production side, while Lamiaa takes care of the designs and pre-production work. Once production is ready, we either divide the animation shots between us or hire more people if the project needs it. What is really nice about working together though is that we can easily shift roles! If someone feels stuck with a certain task or feels that they got bored, we change roles to break the rhythm and get the project moving.

Madison Caprara:

So, divide and conquer, I like it.

When it comes to the types of projects or work you take on, is there always a dual, “yes”? If not, what’s usually the deciding factor?

Hend & Lamiaa:

We usually discuss together before we take on any new project. We both have to agree at the end on the decision. So, it is either we both have the same opinion from the beginning or if we don’t, we discuss together until someone convinces the other. The deciding factor is almost always budget and time. We get excited about most projects very easily, and are always enthusiastic to create more!

Unfortunately being our own bosses obliges us to try to be pragmatic and make sure we make enough income. So we try to find a balance between both passion and commercial work as much as possible. We still don’t have the optimum resolution but would highly recommend the book The Freelance Manifesto by Joey Korenman for anyone struggling with that.

Madison Caprara:

For a self-ascribed indecisive, that sounds like a nightmare, to be honest.

Do you ever see yourselves expanding your staff to more than just the two of you?

Hend & Lamiaa:

We are in desperate need of growing our team. The issue is always with the budget available. So we only hire freelancers whenever it allows us to, but are looking into hiring a full-time producer as a start and then hopefully have more people joining us!

Madison Caprara:

I truly don’t know where dash would be without our Producer, Meryn Hayes. She’s a rockstar.

Congrats on your Vimeo Staff Pick Badge for Flipped, by the way! Could you give us a little rundown on where the idea stemmed from and what the creative process was like?

Hend & Lamiaa:

Thank you so much! We were so happy to receive a staff pick for this film! We made it during our MA course in Bristol, where we were asked to pitch three different ideas for a short film. One of the concepts we came up with was “What if kids and adults switched roles?” After our presentation, we found ourselves very intrigued to keep thinking about that; imagining different situations and flipping roles from daily actions that take place in almost every house around the world! Whether it be eating, going to bed, taking a shower, etc.

We spent a few months working on the storyboard and animatic, puzzling around different situations until the whole structure was formed. After that, we worked on the designs and the technical process. This was the first time we ever got to animate this amount of characters, so we wanted to make sure our technical abilities allowed us to do so as we are not traditional frame-by-frame animators. After, we spent some time testing rigs with DUIK on after effects until we reached a look we were satisfied with. You can find more information about the process here and here.

Madison Caprara:

Well, it’s such a fun piece. I love the hand-drawn animation style. It really adds to the idea of children being the main target audience.

Pivoting from there, how integral do you believe social media is to be successful in this industry? Being that I’ve managed to make a career out of it, I’m a little bias. I love hearing others’ thoughts!

Hend & Lamiaa:

Being present on social media is very crucial, especially if you are not employed full-time at a studio or company. You have to keep posting, even if it’s just a work-in-progress. It makes it easier for potential recruiters to find you. However, we are both very bad at this job! Neither one of us is used to sharing quite often, even on our personal accounts. So, we do disappear from time to time, unfortunately.

Madison Caprara:

What would be your dream project or collaboration?

Hend & Lamiaa:

We have several dream projects we would love to work on. Basically, we’re just trying to divide them as milestones and focus on them step by step. For closer milestones, we would love to keep growing our network and eventually collaborate with different studios. We learn so much from working with different people. We especially love the thrill of meeting new people and exchanging knowledge.

Another milestone is working with more film and television show departments. We would love to work on title sequences to be more specific. Saul Bass’ title sequences were one of the main reasons we got into this whole industry, so we would love to work on such a project. A bigger dream is more educationally driven. We would love to contribute in linking communities worldwide as mentioned before by making animation more accessible, whether through work, opportunities, or sharing knowledge.

Madison Caprara:
And where do you go for inspiration?

Hend & Lamiaa:

Book stores to flip through different children’s books, we’ll go outside with a notebook and just observe the world around us, of course, Pinterest, Vimeo, and Instagram are amazing sources of inspiration as well. Also, before COVID, attending networking events and screenings.

Madison Caprara:

As the world begins to feel a little closer to “normal.” Maybe normal’s not the right word, closer to how it was before the COVID pandemic struck. That being said, what does the rest of 2021 look like for you? Is there anything special we can look forward to seeing from you?

Hend & Lamiaa:

This year is all about collaboration and exploring new opportunities for us. It was a bit hard to keep up with our initial plans with all that’s happening in the world, so we are trying to focus on more remote opportunities and whatever we can accomplish with more limited budgets.

A few months back, we collaborated with different animators from around the world in creating one film - in an exquisite corpse style - where each animator created a 15-second clip playing off of the previous clip from another creator. The film should be done by the end of the summer and we are very excited to see the outcome. Now, we are working on a commissioned project until the end of August where we are also collaborating with other extremely talented animators. So we’re really looking forward to releasing the films soon!

Madison Caprara:

Well, we’re reaching the end of this Q&A session. Do you have any closing points or statements you would like to end on?

Hend & Lamiaa:

Networking is very important in our industry. Don’t be afraid to reach out to people and ask any questions you have in mind. You’d be surprised! Everyone understands the struggle of trying to make it as a freelancer in this industry, so everyone is willing to help and share their experiences very openly.

Not sure if that’s relevant, but from what we went through in the past years, we realized how important it is to keep yourself motivated to keep going. It’s very normal to have some low points during the process, it’s ok to allow yourself to feel down for a few days, but make sure to remind yourself of your passions, to stay in focus, and to keep going!

Mack Garrison 4/12/20 Mack Garrison 4/12/20

Sarah Beth Morgan on the Freelance Experience

I had the wonderful opportunity to chat with Sarah Beth Morgan, an art director, illustrator, and most importantly, a dog mom, to learn more about her favorite types of work, what keeps her sane during stressful projects and her advice when going full time freelance.

Q&A with Sarah Beth Morgan
Read time: 10min

Meryn Hayes:

So let’s jump into it! I know a lot of people are going to know you and your work, but can you talk about your background and how you got into illustration?

Sarah Beth Morgan:

Honestly, I took a standard track to get into the motion and illustration world; or at least to get to motion graphics. As a kid, I was always into art, and it's just always been a part of my life. College was when it all started coming together for me, and I started getting a clearer picture of what I was actually going to do. I went to art school at the Savannah College of Art and Design (SCAD). I actually started as a graphic design student, and I didn't even know that you could make graphic design move. I had never even thought of that as a route for myself. When I got there, I was informed about all of the different majors -- and motion graphics was super appealing to me. I think it felt less limiting than static design; I could use mixed media, I could use stop motion, I could use sound effects which adds a lot to things. That really appealed to me - having the versatility and range made it so that I could experiment forever.

Meryn Hayes:

What would you say is the most surprising thing about what you do? And maybe that can be about what you do currently as a freelancer or in your career as of now.

Sarah Beth Morgan:

I mean, there's a lot that surprises me just because this industry is always progressing and there are all these crazy, new technical things you can do - stuff like VR I never thought I would be a part of. But I think what surprises me the most is probably the friendliness and welcoming-ness of the people in this industry. Everyone's so kind and willing to work with you and your style. Or they're really open to having you on their project - or just even meeting people in person at festivals like the dash bash. It's eye-opening how kind this industry is compared to others. For example, I'm currently working on a big passion project, and I've asked quite a few people to dedicate their time to it. I'm extremely surprised that people are willing to go out of their way and spend time on the weekend to work on something that's important to ME.

“…my whole life had been leading up to graduating from college and starting my career. I never really thought about what would happen after that. “

Meryn Hayes:

That’s awesome! Now this is a hard question, but what advice would you give your younger self? Whether it's about going to SCAD or art school, or if it's just generally in your career.

Sarah Beth Morgan:

Yeah, that is a hard question! I've thought about this a lot because I'm such an anxious person, and I wish I could just tell my past self to be patient, be less anxious. I don't know if that would have been actually possible, but I wish I had been able to do that. When I graduated from college, I thought my whole life had been leading up to graduating from college and starting my career. I never really thought about what would happen after that. So when I graduated I was like, "Oh, I did it, I'm accomplished." I kind of thought of the end of college as being the end game. I didn't even realize how much I'd improve afterwards! Or how I could easily make changes later. For example, moving from animating at work to only illustrating full-time, then finally becoming a freelance illustrator. I just had no concept of that even potentially happening. So I guess my advice to someone younger would be: be patient and be ready for surprises because once you're done with school (or even once you're done with your first job), the world is your oyster. You can keep moving around and doing different things.

Meryn Hayes:

Yeah. Yeah. That's good! I feel like I was the same way. You said that you really hadn't even discovered motion graphics until you got to SCAD. Did you know the possibilities after you graduated that you could go right into freelancing, work at a studio, or in-house at a company?

Sarah Beth Morgan:

I don't think I did. I think I knew the word “freelancer,” and I knew that people did it and I knew that it was a possibility. But I didn't really grasp what that would look like. Each new step of my career aided in creating a picture of that because when I arrived at Gentleman Scholar [now Scholar] right out of school - that was what my goal was all through college - “get a job at a cool studio and then you're set.” I didn't even realize that there were freelancers jumping around from studio to studio and taking long vacations until I was at GS. Then, when I got to Oddfellows, I expanded my knowledge of the term “freelancer” and realized: "Oh, there are freelancers in completely different sides of the world and they’re working remotely. And that's something I could do too." So just being in the industry has taught me a lot. I honestly don't think I could have learned all of that in school. The knowledge came from experience. Someone could have told me that, but I wouldn't have grasped it as clearly as I do now.

“…my advice to someone younger: be patient and be ready for surprises because once you're done with school the world is your oyster. “

Meryn Hayes:

What was your motivation from going from a studio environment to freelance, and making that distinction of pivoting just towards illustration? They’re both big decisions. What kind of gave you that inspiration to go freelance? And what advice would you have for people who are kind of debating that same thing?

Sarah Beth Morgan:

There are a lot of reasons that I wanted to go freelance. Most of them were personal. I think I felt that I had enough experience at that point in my career. I had been wanting to go freelance for maybe two years, but I felt it was a little early just because I still wanted to learn more in a studio environment. I got the chance to art direct a few things - and I do love art directing and I'm still doing some of that as a freelancer. But after four years as staff, I think I finally realized that the upward trajectory of moving at a company, getting promoted, wasn't really what I was interested in. It was more about creating something that was “mine” that felt important to me. Having the time to do passion projects was a big motivator.

A frame from Oddfellow's Capital One animation that was art directed by Sarah Beth. — *A frame from* *Oddfellow's Capital One animation that was art directed by Sarah Beth.*

Sarah Beth Morgan:

I also don’t mind the logistical aspects of being freelance. A lot of people don't love the business side of it. It definitely does take up a lot of time, but I wasn't really scared that I would be unorganized or anything. I already had some of those skills and I enjoy writing emails and stuff like that. I gained a lot of that experience at Gentleman Scholar and Oddfellows which was invaluable.

So, it's different for everyone, but I don't know. I guess my advice would be if you're going to do it - just try to prepare beforehand and surround yourself with people who know what they're doing. For example: I hired an accountant because I definitely couldn't try to do taxes / bookkeeping on my own. So my accountant taught me how to use QuickBooks, and I set myself up as a company right after I went freelance. That way - all of my finances were going through my business bank account instead of my personal. I tried to figure out a lot of that logistical stuff before diving into the art side. That helped me a lot too.

Meryn Hayes:

That's great! Pivoting a little bit, what would you say is either your favorite project or the type of work that you like to do the most?

Sarah Beth Morgan:

Honestly this is a really hard question to answer because it really depends on the situation more than the “look and feel” of a project, for me at least. For client work, my favorite projects are all about who I'm communicating with and clients that maybe are open to stranger and riskier concepts. Even the fact that I'm working with someone that trusts my sensibilities and is excited to collaborate. That’s more important to me sometimes than, "Oh this is a really cool project, but I don’t love the communication… and I have to finish it in three days."

But for my own personal work, I think my favorite type of work to do is when I get the chance to explore new styles. When I’m trying new things (even if it looks bad), I know I'm acquiring new skills that will help me in future projects.

Meryn Hayes:

What's the hardest part about what you do?

Sarah Beth Morgan:

I’d say dealing with living up to my own high standards. If I'm on a client project, I work really well off of the validation of the clients. I appreciate feedback like: "Oh, this looks great," or, "Can you fix this one thing?” That’s really helpful for me because I can gauge, "Oh, I'm doing a good job” or “this is what I need to do next.” It feels like the equivalent of grades in school. I'm like, "Cool, A plus!"

But with my own work, especially my passion projects (or maybe if I'm hired for a project that's supposed to be completely in my style) - I think I'm way harder on myself than anyone else will ever be. I'm constantly giving myself panic attacks because I overthink everything. So that's definitely one thing, and then on that same note: I think it's really hard for me to say “no” to projects. I'm such a people-pleaser and I tend to overbook myself. I end up getting burned out. So - I’d say the hardest part about my job is my own emotional connection to my work.

“I’d say the hardest part about my job is my own emotional connection to my work. ”

Meryn Hayes:

How do you choose what clients/projects to take on?

Sarah Beth Morgan:

I think I first value what I said earlier, communication. If the client is responding quickly or if it's someone I really want to work with. I gauge all of that more up-front, rather than the illustration style. I think secondary would come questions like: “does this project look like something I want to put in my portfolio? My website? And can I post it? Is it under a strict NDA?” I think a lot of that really plays into whether I'll take on a project or not.

Style frame from a project with Wonderlust. — *Style frame from a project with* *Wonderlust*.

Meryn Hayes:

I forget where I saw it, but it was analyzing mental health, specifically in the animation and design industry, and just realizing that there's a lot of high stress and anxiety. How do you deal with moments of that? How do you work through that?

Sarah Beth Morgan:

The best thing for me is to plan a week or two off after and have something to look forward to. That helps a lot. I can do that as a freelancer. If you're on staff, maybe something like treating yourself to a weekend trip could help. Having a light at the end of the tunnel is super helpful for me because I can give myself permission to feel like I'm suffering a little bit in the moment - and know that I won't be later. So I don't know. That's not always the best solution. There's always self-care, taking breaks, making sure you're sleeping.. but planning time off is a big one for me.

I try really hard not to overwork myself, but sometimes that results in me trying to squish everything into the day and being really stressed during the day. Then coming home and just still feeling tense. Sometimes I tell myself: "If I just need to stay 30, 40 extra minutes today, it's going to pay off and it'll make me feel better later." I don't do it that often but, yeah.

Meryn Hayes:

No, that's a good point. Setting up boundaries are good, but if the boundaries themselves are making you feel worse, then they're not doing what they should be doing. How do you feel like you’ve broken into an industry that’s predominantly male? Do you have any advice for women or those who are just starting out?

Sarah Beth Morgan:

My advice would be to build a supportive community around yourself and not being afraid to ask other women for advice. And not being too prideful about reaching out if you’re at a low point. I think that's something I really struggled with when I first started. Not just because I was a woman necessarily, but that I didn't feel very confident. I felt meek and I didn't know when to voice my opinions at work or how to build my leadership skills.

I started reading about - I can't remember what the term was for it - but there's this article I found that was about using language to your advantage as a woman. I tend to say “sorry” and second guess myself a lot. I did a lot of research on exuding confidence through your language and listening to podcasts from women who were prominent in my industry or other industries. Surrounding yourself with advice from other women was really helpful for me.

“My advice would be to build a supportive community around yourself and not be afraid to ask other women for advice.”

Meryn Hayes:

How important it is to surround yourself, and maybe it's not as formal as finding a true mentor, but just finding people that you feel you can aspire to be like and learn from is something that is so important.

Sarah Beth Morgan:

I definitely think having more women visible in those leadership roles - or even just speaking at conferences - is really wonderful and helpful. I think that’s something that really encouraged me when I first started. I went to all three BlendFests, and when Bee Grandinetti was speaking...just seeing how down to earth she was on stage. I felt like I could approach her afterwards and ask her questions. That was super encouraging for me. It gave me a role model to look up to and be like, "I want to be approachable like that. I want to connect with other women in the industry." Visibility is extremely important.

Meryn Hayes:

Great, then the last question, very important and controversial here in the office. Is a hot dog a sandwich?

Sarah Beth Morgan:

The age old question, right? I guess I would say no. Is a hot dog a sandwich? Is a taco a sandwich? Is a hamburger a ground beef sandwich?