Routes to Raleigh: Dashing from the West
(1) Starting Point: Los Angeles, California
Hollywood Boulevard. Shutterstock, 1 Mar 2016, https://bit.ly/lastockphoto.
To Do: The Broad, a contemporary art museum offering free general admission and an active program of rotating exhibitions.
To Eat: The Little Door, with a consistently rotating menu, The Little Door holds the title for the "Best Romantic Restaurant of LA." A Parisian-style restaurant with seasonal French fare, pastries, and fine wines.
To Drink: Bar Bohemian, a sleek, bright and breezy craft cocktail rooftop bar and lounge at Citizen Public Market.
(2) Albuquerque, New Mexico
To Stay: Painted Lady Bed & Brew, a twist on the traditional B&B concept. Built in 1881 as a brothel and saloon, The Painted Lady is rumored to be haunted, if you’re into that sort of thing.
To Do: Hike La Luz Trail to the top of South Sandia Peak for a beautiful view of the city. If the weather’s good, take the cable car back down to the bottom.
To Eat: Los Poblanos Historic Inn and Organic Farm, technically a hotel, but their restaurant’s food is grown right on the property.
To Drink: Sip on local wines at Casa Rondeña Winery.
(3) Oklahoma City, Oklahoma
Oklahoma City Skyline Sunset. Pixels, 13 Apr 2019, https://bit.ly/okstockphoto.
To Stay: Colcord Hotel, housed in a historic building from the 1910s, the Colcord is a boutique hotel smack in the middle of the downtown scene.
To Do: Ride OKC’s Bike + Brews, a three-hour-long bike tour, with stops at five breweries and a few other notable city sites along the way.
To Eat: Grey Sweater, one of OKC's newest and most unique restaurant concepts.
To Drink: Elemental Coffee, a minimalist cafe with espresso and craft coffee drinks. Their beans are roasted in-house!
(4) Nashville, Tennessee
Spirit of Nashville Bus. Shutterstock, 15 Feb 2020, https://bit.ly/nashstockphoto.
To Stay: Kimpton Aertson Hotel, located in Nashville’s Midtown district next to the legendary, Music Row. Pet friendly!
To Do: You can’t go to Music City without hearing some live music. Go see a show at the Grand Ole Opry.
To Eat: Pinewood Social, a trendy restaurant, cozy coffee shop, craft cocktail bar, and a bowling alley. All in one!
To Drink: Yee-Haw Brewing Co., a dual distillery and brewery in Sobro that is a much-loved go-to.
(5) Asheville, North Carolina
To Stay: The Foundry Hotel Asheville, restored and resurrected an abandoned steel foundry.
To Do: Take a hike in the Pisgah National Forest.
To Eat: Jargon, located in historic West Asheville, Jargon is an intimate spot that offers modern American dishes along with craft cocktails.
To Drink: Capella on 9 takes rooftop drinking to the next level. Smack in the middle of downtown Asheville, Capella has a great cocktail program with phenomenal city views.
Welcome to Raleigh, West Coasters!
Takeover Tuesday with Pablo Lozano
Q&A with Pablo Lozano, a former Animator and Designer at Golden Wolf, currently freelancing in Toronto, Canada.
Q&A with Pablo Lozano
Read time: 10min
Madison Caprara:
What’s up, Pablo? Let’s start with an introduction! What did your path to becoming an animator look like, and what about it initially attracted you?
Pablo Lozano:
Hey there! Thank you for having me here. I started my career as a Motion Designer in TV (news broadcasting, sports broadcasting, etc.), but then realized that that side of the motion world was too fast-paced for me; having to create content in days, if not hours, and most of the “cool” projects, like openers or rebrands, ended up being outsourced to outside studios. That's when I decided to change directions towards the studio side of things. I moved to Sweden to study at Hyper Island, improved my skills, and from there, moved to London to join the Golden Wolf team. Now I am freelancing!
In regards to my original attraction to the medium, I've always known I wanted to work in the creative field, but it wasn't until my early 20s that I narrowed it down to 2D animation and motion design. I love bringing still graphics and illustrations to life. I love how we can create new worlds in 30 seconds, and mostly, I love deciding how movement informs the tone, message, and emotion of a piece.
Madison Caprara:
And how would you go about describing your “signature style”?
Pablo Lozano:
I'm not sure I have a signature style, to be honest! I enjoy working in different styles but if I had to narrow it down, I am really drawn to dynamicity and energy. Those are the projects I enjoy working on the most; having fluid motion that ties scenes together, changing rhythms, and high energy.
Madison Caprara:
What type of education did it take to get you where you are today? Formal, self-appointed,..?
Pablo Lozano:
Most of my motion and animation education has been self-taught or through work experience. However, my time at Hyper Island in Stockholm gave me the space, tools, and time to hone my skills surrounded by incredible people.
Madison Caprara:
Speaking of Stockholm, you’ve moved around quite a bit. Sweden, the UK, Canada. How has your experience been in each place, professionally and personally?
Pablo Lozano:
Each is very different, and I think each experience reflects on where I was in my life at the moment. In Sweden as a student, broke but was very interested in learning, spent a lot of time at school working on projects, figuring out exactly what my next move was. London was a time of professional growth, very long working hours, and most everything in life revolved around work. Now in Toronto, I'm trying to find a bit more of a balance between work and life outside of work.
Additionally, each city is very different industry-wise. While London is a huge animation hub, with studios just a block apart from each other and a big network of animators and designers, Stockholm and Toronto have a smaller animation/motion community. Fewer studios and the community is a bit more fractured and difficult to keep in contact with.
Madison Caprara:
Interesting! With all being more well-known cities, I had assumed that they would all have a pretty booming animation/motion scene.
So, you’ve created projects for everything from TV to apps to magazines and have used a pretty large variety of mediums to animate. Do you have a preference?
Pablo Lozano:
Not really! I do specialize in 2D animation, both After Effects and hand-drawn, so that’s my preferred medium paired with Photoshop for design. But regarding the output, I find joy in working for different types of clients, different formats that bring different challenges to the table. Lately, I’ve had a streak of projects where my 2D work has been mixed with 3D content, and that has been very interesting, both in the workflow and style.
Madison Caprara:
Pivoting back to your London days, how did you find yourself joining the Golden Wolf team? How was your experience?
Pablo Lozano:
I joined the team as an intern after my studies and stayed for around three years. My experience there was great! I grew a lot in those years, being surrounded by incredible talent, working with high-end clients and on super interesting projects. There were a lot of long hours and late nights at the time, but I loved the camaraderie and energy there was at the studio. I haven’t found anything quite the same since. I miss the wolves!
Madison Caprara:
Looking back, did you have any particular career goals during your studio days that may (or may not) have changed now that you’ve transitioned to freelance work?
Pablo Lozano:
Just to be a better animator and designer, really. To polish my skills as much as I could. When I got to Golden Wolf, I would see other artists next to me, either full-time or freelance, creating these beautiful animations. I only wanted to get to their level and learn from them. That’s why I would advise anyone trying to get into the industry to gain some studio experience. The knowledge and motivation you get working alongside great talent are invaluable.
Madison Caprara:
And what prompted you to make that switch?
Pablo Lozano:
I wanted a change of pace. To explore how other studios and artists work. Golden Wolf was my first studio experience in the motion industry, so I wanted to see how things worked in other companies. Another reason was the freedom that comes along with freelancing. You can decide the amount of work you want to take on, when to sprint and take on more, and when to slow down to take care of yourself or focus on other things. When you are full-time, somebody else decides that for you.
Madison Caprara:
Having experienced both sides of the coin, do you have a preference between the two?
Pablo Lozano:
I think each has different advantages. I miss incredibly the feeling of being part of a studio; the connection to people, the energy and creativity that flows being in the same space. I don’t think you can recreate that feeling remotely. But on the other side, I am happy freelancing. It allows me to take time off when I need to, to either explore North America (I don’t know how long I’ll be around here) or go back to Spain to see family if needed. At the moment, it better fits my lifestyle.
Madison Caprara:
To speak a little more on your work, is there anything you are particularly trying to address or explore through your pieces?
Pablo Lozano:
Not at the moment, no. Each project is unique and the message is tailored to the client. I have several ideas for personal projects with topics and styles I want to explore, but as always, it’s quite difficult to fit personal work in between client projects while keeping a balanced life outside of the work.
Madison Caprara:
Where do you see the future of animation heading?
Pablo Lozano:
I can only speak on the commercial animation/motion side of things. I see a growing need for animated elements (either 2D, 3D, hand-drawn, or computer-generated) as more and more digital content and platforms need it. On the other hand, I also see a commoditization of much of that content. Faster turnarounds, a longer list of deliveries to fit all possible platforms…a wider pyramid base, and more work across the board but probably as competitive when you move up.
We have seen how animation is doable in a remote environment and during a crazy event such as a pandemic, so in my opinion, that has only increased the number of clients that now feel comfortable creating animated content. It will also be very interesting to see how new mediums we didn’t even think were possible months ago, like the NFT space, will change our industry and the client/artist relationship.
Madison Caprara:
When you find yourself in a creative rut, where do you go for inspiration?
Pablo Lozano:
It’s going to sound cliché, but I try to step away from the computer. Going for walks, people watching…Sometimes inspiration comes from real-world shapes and architecture, sometimes a book or an article, sometimes other artist's work makes me want to try something new...it really varies.
Madison Caprara:
I personally enjoy a good cliché!
Well, it’s been really great getting to learn more about you, Pablo. Unfortunately, we’re reaching the end of our time. That being said, do you have any closing points or advice you’d like to share?
Pablo Lozano:
We need to remember that our career is a marathon, not a sprint. It takes time and effort to get to the skill level you want to be, even if social media these days makes you believe otherwise. Be patient. Work hard, there are times to push, and there are times to rest. Be nice, create genuine connections. And focus on the things you enjoy creating because those are the only ones you’ll be able to pour hours and hours into.
Routes to Raleigh: Dashing from the East
Woah! Another hypothetical road trip itinerary for our East Coast Dash Bash attendees. Find part one here, with part three to follow shortly!
Road Trip Itinerary. NYC to Raleigh, NC.
Read time: 5min
(1) Starting Point: New York, New York
Lower Manhattan - Chinatown. Getty, https://bit.ly/nycstockphoto.
To Do: Sleep No More, an award-winning, interactive theatrical experience. Follow a film-noir portrayal of Macbeth through a five-story 1930s hotel located in the Chelsea neighborhood.
To Eat: Juliana's, a neighborhood pizzeria serving new york-style pies. Pro-tip: if wandering over from Manhatten, take a stroll along the Brooklyn Bridge, as the restaurant is located just under it.
To Drink: Attaboy, a cocktail bar hidden in plain sight on an obscure bit of Eldridge Street. If you enjoy more of an intimate speakeasy vibe, this spot’s for you.
(2) Philadelphia, Pennsylvania
To Stay: Lokal Hotel - Fishtown, a modern apartment-hotel in one of Philly’s hottest neighborhoods. Fishtown is home to some of the city’s most trendy restaurants, bars, shops, and cafes.
To Do: Philadelphia's Magic Gardens, a non-profit organization and gallery space on South Street. It is the largest work created by mosaic artist Isaiah Zagar to date. Covering an indoor and outdoor space equivalent to half a city block, the tiled passages weave over and underground.
To Eat: Reading Terminal Market, a huge indoor marketplace featuring some of Philly’s best local eateries. Comprised of dozens of stalls with a variety of food—homemade ice cream, donuts, cheesesteaks, whoopee pies, you name it.
To Drink: Elixr Coffee, a cafe on a small side street in the heart of Center City. The walls are covered in vibrant murals that change every few months. Elixr is known for its light roast, so if you like it dark, head elsewhere.
(3) Baltimore, Maryland
Baltimore Inner Harbor Skyline. Getty, 3 Dec 2019, https://bit.ly/baltimorestockphoto.
To Stay: The Admiral Fell Inn, a historical inn in Fell’s Point made up of seven historic structures. The buildings’ past lives have included a rooming house for sailors during Fell’s Point’s rough-and-tumble days, a YMCA, and a bottling factory.
To Do: The Edgar Allan Poe House, for all of our spooky story fans. Check out where Poe launched his renowned career. Note that the house is small with tight winding staircases, so is unfortunately not 100% accessible.
To Eat: Woodbury Kitchen, a farm-to-table favorite that's well worth visiting for the restored space alone. Think old factory turned hip, rustic-chic.
To Drink: The Bluebird Cocktail Room, named one of “The South’s Best New Bars,” this literary-themed bar in Hampden features cocktails named after famous authors.
(4) Washington, D.C.
To Stay: Hotel Hive, DC's first micro-hotel. Located across the street from the George Washington University campus, Hive is a converted warehouse turned hotel space.
To Do: The Tidal Basin Loop, an easy 2.1-mile loop surrounded by cherry trees. The loop will take you past many monuments, including the Japanese Pagoda, the Thomas Jefferson Memorial, the Martin Luther King Jr. Memorial, and the Washington Monument.
To Eat: Paying homage to French cafe culture, Le Diplomate is seriously boujee, and worth every penny. We will forever recommend their brunch.
To Drink: Located two blocks from the waterfront, Bluejacket is a microbrewery serving craft beers in a century-old former factory.
(5) Richmond, Virginia
Autumn on Monument. Getty, https://bit.ly/richmondstockphoto.
To Stay: Quirk Hotel Richmond, located in Downtown Richmond’s art and design district, Quirk is a boutique hotel located just two miles from the Virginia Museum of Fine Arts.
To Do: Virginia Museum of Fine Arts, one of the largest comprehensive art museums in the U.S. with more than 5,000 years of art from around the world.
To Eat: Rappahannock, an Industrial seafood spot nestled in the historic Grace St. corridor of downtown Richmond with offerings of an oyster bar, craft cocktails, and beer in airy digs.
To Drink: Charm School Social Club, a dual coffee and ice cream spot. ‘Nuff said.
Welcome to Raleigh, East Coasters!
Interview with Dash Bash Speaker, Kaye Vassey
From films to comic strips to video games, Kaye Vassey has done it all.
Cory Livengood, dash’s Co-Founder and Creative Director, sat down with Kaye to discuss both her professional and personal journey.
Q&A with Kaye Vassey
Read time: 15 min
“it was lightning in a bottle. I knew that it was a great game. I knew that the art was cool and that the style was awesome, it just needed to find the audience. (fortnite)”
Cory Livengood:
I have Kaye Vassey here with me today. She is a twenty-one-year veteran of the feature animation, games, and comics industries, where she has worked on film franchises such as Shrek, Madagascar, and the How to Train Your Dragon series. Currently, she is a Lead Technical Animator at Epic Games and was an artistic leader on the hugely successful game, Fortnite.
Cory Livengood:
I think the best place to start, Kaye, is by just telling us a little about yourself, and how you got into the animation industry.
Kaye Vassey:
Sure.
Cory Livengood:
Eventually leading to Epic Games.
Kaye Vassey:
I decided when I was around 11 or 12 years old that I wanted to either be...Well, I wanted to do three things. I wanted to do animation, and that was based on a trip to Disney World. At the time they were taking retired animators who had worked for the studio, they put them outside of one of the art stores in Main Street, USA as soon as you enter the park. I had stopped at this guy's table, and he drew for me. I found out he was an animator on Lady and the Tramp. I was like, "Oh, my God, wait, you can do art and have it be alive. That's crazy." From that point on, I want to do animation.
But, I also loved video games. I didn't necessarily want to make them at the time, but I loved gaming, computers, and all that sort of nerdy stuff. This was around the same time that I had a Nintendo Entertainment System.
Cory Livengood:
I was going to ask, were you a computer gamer or a console gamer?
Kaye Vassey:
I started on an Atari 2600, it was right in the middle of the Pac-Man craze and I loved arcades. I still have the memories of going as a kid, that was a huge draw. So yeah, 2600, and then got the Nintendo Entertainment System, the NES. That really sealed the deal as far as gaming for me.
I also wanted to do comics, so I had these three interests and I decided then that they were what I wanted to do with my life. I had been drawing for a long time, art was just one of my hobbies. Then, of course, going through public school in South Carolina, it's like every person you face, you tell them, "Oh, I want to be an animator." They're like, "Okay, yeah, that's great but you need a backup plan." I've heard about the backup plan from every adult through college.
Cory Livengood:
What was your backup plan?
Kaye Vassey:
I was going to do graphic design and illustration. I leaned more towards an illustrator than a fine artist. I was in the camp that considered Norman Rockwell an artist as opposed to an illustrator, the commercial art which was frowned upon. So that was my backup plan: graphic design, illustration, motion graphics.
My intro to art was through my grandfather. He was a plumber by trade. He would come home for lunches and draw for me. Once he retired, he and I would just do art a lot of days, especially in the summer when I would stay at their house while I was out of school. We would just do art most days, we’d go in their basement and paint or draw and try to improve. It was a shared hobby that my grandfather and I had, which cemented everything when it came to choosing art as a career.
Kaye Vassey:
So, I made it through high school, having enrolled in AP art and music. Then, college was a bit of a kerfuffle. I had gotten a full scholarship to the School of Visual Arts in New York, but part of that scholarship was to begin at their Savannah Campus in Georgia for two years, then transfer to NYC to learn illustration. I was like, "absolutely!"
I had been accepted to Cal Arts, Ringling, RISD, Chicago, and all the major schools but couldn't afford them, so this was my solution. On Valentine's Day of my senior year, the guidance counselor called to tell me that SCAD had a pending lawsuit and so the Savannah Campus for the School of Visual Arts was closing its doors. They weren't allowed to take any more students. Sorry, thanks for playing.
Cory Livengood:
Oh, wow. Just like that?
Kaye Vassey:
Yeah. If you look it up online you can still find a little bit of the story. The only option I had was the University of Georgia. I went there for graphic design for a year, transferred back to Clemson in South Carolina, then told Clemson, "Listen, you have a small art department, and here's what I want to do: animation." I went through the entire course catalog and built my own degree. They were like, "okay, cool."
Cory Livengood:
That's great.
Kaye Vassey:
Yeah! I did a one-minute, traditionally animated short film as my senior project. Then came Disney, and that's where I got my first job doing motion graphics.
There were other jobs in-between, of course. I did a lot of menu design work for Denny's. Their HQ is in my hometown, so I did some graphic design there, mainly their different donation campaigns. There's always a box at the register to donate money to, I designed those. But ultimately, I ended up at Disney in the back lot doing motion graphics, animation, after effects, and wire removal for the TV shows they were shooting in Florida. Eventually, I figured out that I couldn't actually draw and started learning how to.
Cory Livengood:
Interesting.
“you can't stop learning. you have to always be willing to learn something new to stay in your career.”
Kaye Vassey:
The pond got much bigger and so it was like...
Cory Livengood:
Yeah, that's still happening.
Kaye Vassey:
Well, the internet makes it infinitely big. Right?
But yeah, it was a much bigger pond. Once I finally accomplished that goal, Disney was moving into 3D animation. While I was in college, I had taken computer science classes and weaseled my way into the labs that had animation software. The campus had an SGI computer with Wavefront and Power Animator which I got access to over the summers. It would be like 100 outside and the lab would be at 60 degrees. I would carry winter coats in there and animate in Alias PowerAnimator.
Cory Livengood:
I wanted to ask you about how you started so clearly with this comic art illustration, and now you're in technical animation. You deal with more of the code and the computer software. How did that transition occur?
Kaye Vassey:
Once Disney started moving toward computer animation, I got one traditional film under my belt--the Eight Crazy Nights film. That was with everybody who had been laid off or wasn't able to work at Disney because they were scaling down and trying to teach all the animators how to use Maya at the time. A lot left and went to Chicago for Big Idea Productions to work on the VeggieTales movie. It was their first. I got pulled along, dropped into a technical role, and started writing code and making tools. I was a render Wrangler/Render TD. Basically, in today's film industry, that role would have been an animation lighting TD. We were doing the final frames.
Kaye Vassey:
We made sure that everything was working, and went in to fix anything that wasn't. I ended up doing that for their film, and because of the advancements we made with Maya, it got noticed by Alias who was the company at the time that was making Maya up before it got bought by Autodesk. Through knowing people there, I ended up at DreamWorks. So, at DreamWorks, I started in clothing and finaling which was new in the industry. Now everybody has a clothing department called character effects.
Cory Livengood:
Gotcha. So that's like fabric simulation and things like that?
Kaye Vassey:
Yep. Fabric, hair, any type of skin simulation. For example, Shrek would touch his cheek and you would need it to deform. Animators don't have the controls for that, so we would go in after they did their work and do the in-betweens if you will. While handling that, my technical knowledge got to the point where they asked me to do effects. I ended up working on the first Madagascar film as well as Shrek 3. That was more of the fire, rain, water, smoke, dust, debris, and explosions.
Cory Livengood:
It seems like you found yourself being thrown into a lot of these situations, trial by fire.
Kaye Vassey:
Oh, absolutely, and learning along the way. That’s the thing, you can't stop learning. You have to always be willing to learn something new to stay in your career.
It just so happened that on Madagascar, the animation department was backed up, and we realized that some characters had not been animated in two of the zoo shots. So I animated the characters because the shots had to get done. After, they moved me into crowd and secondary character animation, which is where I eventually became a department head and supervisor for quite a few films.
Kaye Vassey:
I did that for 11 years, then I could tell that the industry was moving to India and Vancouver. Things were slowing down and the filmmaking process was getting a little out of hand. When you make a live-action piece or film, there's such a thing as coverage, right? You get all of your coverage, then what you end up cutting isn’t a big deal. You end up leaving a lot on the "cutting room floor." However, with animation, you have to start in the opposite direction. You pre-plan as much as you possibly can, because of the amount of time it takes to get characters made, animated, rendered, lit, the entire process. It's not as easy as shooting coverage.
Cory Livengood:
Cutting something after all that work is a huge waste.
“there's a lot of education and elevation that has to happen...when you come out. the question is, is that company willing to push for it, are they willing to put the time in to make their space safe for individuals of all groups?”
Kaye Vassey:
Right, and we were getting directors there toward the end that were cutting fully lit sequences that had been rendered. I could see the writing on the wall. Things were out of hand and it was going to get rough.
Cory Livengood:
So did you know at that point that video games were the next pivot, or was that also a surprise to you?
Kaye Vassey:
Well, that's where the backup plan comes in, right? As much as I hated that adult who pushed that idea back in the day, it has saved me quite a bit.
A lot of it plays on the environment that things are happening in. My daughter was born in Silicon Valley, my son as well, but the day that she was born was also the release of the first iPhone. I was literally in the hospital looking down at the Apple store in Burlingame, where they were opening for the first line of customers. I vividly remember being like, "I want to get down there, but…”
Cory Livengood:
You had important things to do.
Kaye Vassey:
Exactly. Things are happening here. So all of a sudden, there were these things called apps, they had an ecosystem, and tech began moving in that direction. Once I figured out you could make games for the iPhone, that's what I started doing at night as a side hobby. I ended up playing Gears of War and noticed that the studio credited was in Raleigh. I went on a deep dive and started figuring out who Epic was. I began connecting with people on LinkedIn back when LinkedIn was young.
Kaye Vassey:
When you got a connection on LinkedIn, it was like, "Whoa, a connection? Who is this person?" Now, you’ll sift through 200 requests a day. So, we ended up trading tours back and forth, they would come out for GDC, and to see DreamWorks, or I would be in LA supervising and they would come for E3. Then when I came home for holidays, I would ride up to Raleigh and check out their studio.
When it was time, I was like, "Hey, I think I'm ready to do this. Let's see if I can move over to Epic because things are looking kind of rough here." It was not an easy task. The games industry is different than film. In film, you have a lot of proprietary software like with Pixar, DreamWorks, Disney. So when you have a hire, you don't necessarily expect them to know your software.
Cory Livengood:
Right. The skills aren't always transferred like that.
Kaye Vassey:
No. Your knowledge is great, but it takes you about six months to learn the proprietary pipeline and figure out how you effectively use the new tools that I had never seen before. Games are different. They’re pretty much off the shelf, except for the engine. Now, of course, we democratized game engines with Unreal.
Cory Livengood:
Oh, yeah. Certainly.
Kaye Vassey:
That's a different story now because the environment has changed.
Cory Livengood:
That's the thing, a lot of people in the current generation realize that Epic is now so synonymous with Fortnite that it's like, “Oh, by the way, half the other games you've ever played are running software on Epic software.” Right?
Kaye Vassey:
And that's the thing. At the time, I had to test four times to get into the games industry. They basically send tests to prove that you're good enough. Epic was still at the level where they were only hiring senior-level artists. I mean, I'm coming from this area where we hire students out of college and train them because we believe in career advancement, and Epic was like, "You better be a badass." I was like, "I don't know how to be a badass, but all right."
Cory Livengood:
“I'll keep trying.”
Kaye Vassey:
I tested four times and finally got in and that was the start of it. As soon as I got into Epic, I went in and I was like, "So when are dailies?" They didn’t know what dailies were, I had to ask who was going to review my work. They were like, "You are. Just put it in the game and if somebody doesn't like it, they'll come to tell you." It was a completely different mentality. Now Epic is a well-oiled machine
Cory Livengood:
Certainly. Certainly.
Kaye Vassey:
So at the time, they put me on this little game called Fortnite with a very small team. I was the only technical animator on the game and took it all the way to fruition to what you see now.
Cory Livengood:
Can you talk a little bit about what it means to be a technical animator? What is the day-to-day that goes behind that title?
Kaye Vassey:
Yeah, and just for clarity, in film it's called rigging. You have a character rigger or a character TD, and that's generally their main job. What that entails is that you think of a 3D character as a puppet, then you as a rigger are articulating that puppet. You’re putting the bones and the controls in so that the animator can give the performance that they want.
In games, it's slightly different. Especially at Epic, and especially on Fortnite, because technically animation goes beyond just doing that. That's one facet of the job, it's also more like the character effects department that I was talking about earlier. We handle simulation, clothing, hair, physics, basically all the cool stuff that brings that extra layer of life to the characters, props, weapons, vehicles, etc. So, animation is much more. It’s a hybrid art technical role that is much more than rigging. Was that a good explanation?
Cory Livengood:
Yeah, that's perfect. So when you started with Fortnite, it sounded more like an afterthought. Now it has become this worldwide phenomenon.
Kaye Vassey:
Yeah, it was a small team that had been going in on various game jams for a while. It was overshadowed by Paragon, which was a larger game with deadlines. We were making the portion of the game that became Save the World. Then at one point after the release of Save the World, there was another team that worked on the PVP side of things. In helping them get the characters ready and troubleshooting for them, we built the bones that became Battle Royale.
Cory Livengood:
When we spoke the other day, you mentioned a moment that was sort of a make or break, could you recount that again? As I recall, there was this moment of, “Hey, if you can stick with this team and make this work, great, if it doesn't work, you're out.” Is that accurate?
Kaye Vassey:
I was the only technical animator on the entire game, so I brought on a junior hire to help. I built the team, to a large degree, before leaving the game. This was my first hire on this project, my first direct report on the game, and they were a junior.
It was up to me to train and make them effective, and if they came in and didn't accomplish things, in the eyes of the company, it wasn’t going to be good for me. It was make or break at that point.
Kaye Vassey:
The thing is, at DreamWorks, I had helped a lot with what we call the FX Challenge. That’s a curriculum and classes for graduating college students to come in and learn how to be VFX artists. They’d take the classes, learn our proprietary pipeline, work on shots and low-level effects, and we wouldn’t let any of them go. We trained them so well. I'm still connected with most of those students who have been at DreamWorks and Pixar and everywhere else for years now. I really believe that it’s an important aspect of hiring, growing your company, and growing artists in the world. Right?
Cory Livengood:
Yeah.
Kaye Vassey:
So that's what I did with this person. They're now leading the technical animation team on Fortnite.
Cory Livengood:
Excellent. Is it a pretty collaborative team environment or more focused on individual assignments?
Kaye Vassey:
Back when I was running the team, it was really collaborative. I can't speak to now very well, especially with working from home through the pandemic.
Kaye Vassey:
But at that time, yeah! The office was set up as a large room with desks. Everybody would talk and look at what everybody else was working on. It became one great collaboration. The way I would run dailies, during the meeting, everybody would be there. Anytime there was a problem, it was always best idea wins. Anybody that had a thought about, “Maybe you should try this...,” put it out there. It was collaborative from the get-go.
Cory Livengood:
Did you ever expect Fortnite to become as successful as it is now?
Kaye Vassey:
I don’t think anyone could predict that. I knew that it was a great game. I knew that the art was cool and that the style was awesome, it just needed to find the audience.
Cory Livengood:
Are you still a gamer? Do you still play?
Kaye Vassey:
I do when I can, but I’m not a huge Fortnite player.
Cory Livengood:
Sure. That's cool, not too shocking.
Kaye Vassey:
It quickly outgrew my skill set. I got some decent victories at the beginning, got some nice skins and everything I worked on, but then pros came along and were building skyscrapers in seconds. The data has changed to a place where I can't get there. But yeah, I do play. Dating back to the Nintendo that I had, my favorite game was Dragon Warrior which was the English release of Dragon Quest from Japan. I ended up getting it free. I think it was free. It was the '80s I can't remember exactly.
“the more feminine I became, the less my voice mattered to a degree.”
Kaye Vassey:
It’s about to get nerdy real quick. I think I got it free with the subscription, and it came with a thick instruction book that detailed weapons and enemies and stuff. Having already been exposed to Dungeons and Dragons, it was like it but without having to get everybody together and keep them organized. It was amazing, I loved it. I am still very much an RPG player. I was a wow player from day zero, I played Final Fantasy 11 with a group from DreamWorks, and have now moved over to Final Fantasy 14.
Cory Livengood:
I would love to touch a little bit on your comic background too.
Kaye Vassey:
Sure.
Cory Livengood:
It's the whole other side of the coin we haven't discussed, but throughout this whole journey you've described, you've also done work with hand-drawn comic strips.
Would you like to speak a little bit about that and your experience with the Legend of Bill and Gnome Syndicate?
Kaye Vassey:
Absolutely. So that started when I was working on How To Train Your Dragon. I might have said before, but Legend of Bill was a comic strip I had found online. As I said, it’s all about the era, and the environment. At this time, people started making webcomics. They hadn’t previously been a thing. XKCD was huge, Penny Arcade, and PvP. They were games fed directly into the most popular webcomics of the time, right?
Kaye Vassey:
I came across Legend of Bill and started following it. I thought it was really funny how they took Conan the Barbarian, and the fantasy realm idea and stood it on its head. So, I did a guest comment for the author, David Reddick. He wrote me back after having checked out my social media and was like, "Oh, my God, you work on How To Train Your Dragon?" He ran the guest strip and asked if I wanted to do another series in the Legend of Bill world. I said yes, because why not? I had a new kid and all the time in the world. A lot of my 20s and 30s were spent not going to bed before 2 or 3 AM, and then being up early the next day. Definitely not what I do now.
I started doing the Gnome Syndicate, which is in the fantasy realm of Legend to Bill. The fairies are like the FBI and the gnomes are more like the CIA. It all started as a joke in Legend of Bill. He would always draw and gnome, it was in the background and a lot of the strips. Anytime something big would happen in the story arc, there would always be this gnome chilling in the background. He kept recurring. It was David's idea to make him a watcher. To put it in modern Marvel terms, it would have been like the TVA. So the gnomes control time and space. They can teleport around and make sure that things don't happen to cause catastrophe in the timeline. This was all well before any of the Marvel MCU stuff. That was the beginning of my comic journey.
Kaye Vassey:
I believe gnome 12 was the original, so I picked up with gnome 13 and started running the storyline. I did it for years. Eventually, David Reddick, who was already working on Garfield at the time, ended up getting syndicated himself with his strips. Now he's an artist on Blondie. So, I took over Legend of Bill for several years and began intertwining the story arcs. It was a great run for a long time. I did a few weekends as an artist in residence at the Schulz Peanuts Museum which was awesome. But I eventually stopped to begin working on a graphic novel for a publisher. It's still in progress due to the pandemic and various other things.
Cory Livengood:
What are some major differences, also similarities, between film, comic, and video games; these three buckets you’ve found yourself in over the years.
Kaye Vassey:
First, it's all storytelling. You're all contributing to the story in some way, shape, or form. That's a big umbrella. It's an experience, whether oratory or interactive. That's the big thing that links them together. Though technique-wise, once you get under the hood, film and comics have a lot more in common to some degree. Anytime I'm drawing a panel, I'm always thinking, “Where's the camera and the space?”
Cory Livengood:
It's almost like a storyboard.
Kaye Vassey:
It is, and that's another thing, I think about it cinematically. I think about it based on contrast, and affinity, which is the principle that underlies what the original artists at Disney were calling ‘straight against curve’ in their character designs. You can have contrast and affinity in anything it works not only in character design but in storytelling and composition. In animation. You can apply it to so many aspects of creativity. So, film and comics are linked together in many ways that make them similar.
Kaye Vassey:
Games can be a bit different because they’re an interactive experience. You're adding a lot of extra tech that you don't necessarily need for comics. If you're going to draw a comic, then it's you, your materials, and the story. That's all you have. And words, whether they're your words, or someone else's.
Kaye Vassey:
Film is similar. It involves other issues, and now with 3D animation, you're talking about rendering, and you're talking about a series of images that are played back at 24 frames a second. Ultimately, as a film studio or a film artist, whatever you have to do to get that particular frame done, is what you have to do. Once that frame of film is done, that's your deliverable. That's it, it's done. With games, that concept is a little bit skewed. Because this is an experience that's going to happen over and over and over and over and over across the world, millions of times. It compounds itself. So the way that you design these things are similar, but with a very different outcome.
Cory Livengood:
I really like that.
Kaye Vassey:
It's interesting when you compare them all. Artistically, if you want to talk about the color temperature in an area, or how this lighting makes you feel you can, those are all similar, and that's from comics to film to games.
Cory Livengood:
Rely on how they are experienced. That's interesting.
As a trans individual, I wonder if you would be willing to talk about transitioning in an industry that's known for being cis-male dominated if that's something you're comfortable discussing?
Kaye Vassey:
Yeah, I'll totally do that. It's very safe to say that me coming out in an industry that is very, I would even say, cis-hetero-white male-dominated, was tough. It was tough for me and it was tough for Epic in a lot of ways. Let's talk about the LGBT+ community for just a second. The one thing about the trans community, and I've said this before in various places, is that if you are a gay male in games, I don't want to diminish anything, but it is easier for you to exist and "fly under the radar" of your peers. There is still a lot of stress involved if you have a partner. There's a great infographic, and I might mess up the name, but I believe it's Ned and Ted's Big Adventure.
Kaye Vassey:
It's a little infographic that shows a male couple who had a wonderful anniversary weekend. Monday morning, a co-worker comes up to one of the members of the couple and says, "Hey, what did you do this weekend?" That starts this chain infographic of asking, “Is this person safe to talk to? Do they agree with me? Do they know I'm out? Do they not know I'm out? If no, then what consequences does that bring by saying, ‘my partner or my husband’? Does that mean that they are going to treat me differently?” This infographic shows the stressful thought process that happens. The person gets back to their desk and has already gone through so much mental work just from getting their morning cup of coffee in the office. Hopefully, it makes company owners question, “Do I see the amount of stress that this person is starting their workday with and they haven't even gotten to the stress that you pay them for?”
Cory Livengood:
Sure.
Kaye Vassey:
Is that something you want to be okay with? And that's the point of the infographic. It's great, those examples are phenomenal. Now, from the trans perspective, let's take that idea. Let's take someone who, a month ago, came in presenting male. Now that person is standing in front of you in a dress and heels. The extra layer of all of that puts a lot of pressure on both sides. Not only that, you are going to be working with hormones, you're going to be diminishing what your body makes and potentially replacing them completely.
It’s one hell of a roller coaster, and so during that roller coaster, if I was advising a company, I would say if you have someone who's beginning their transition and they are coming out, be prepared for a lot of that. Give them soft landings. When I did it, I was the head of technical animation on Fortnite. It was currently the largest video game in the world. Ever. And I was the leader of the group that last touches assets before they go into the game.
Cory Livengood:
No pressure.
Kaye Vassey:
Also, while walking into the office presenting feminine. A lot of people who wanted to be nice in the world would say, "Oh, I support you, dude." It's like, you just didn't support me by saying that. There's a lot of education and elevation that has to happen within your co-workers and everyone around you at a company when you come out. The question is, is that company willing to push for it, and are they willing to put the time in to make sure that their space is safe for individuals of all groups? Epic is learning that, and they're doing a great job.
Cory Livengood:
That's a good segue. I understand that you're also leading inclusivity initiatives at Epic. Are they related to that exact topic?
Kaye Vassey:
I am. So now Epic has grown and matured as a company. They now have ERGs, which are employee resource groups. It is becoming a place that will hopefully show the rest of the gaming industry how to do it right and how to do it best.
Cory Livengood:
Excellent. It's great that they're willing to do that. I think wanting to improve on those initiatives is half the battle.
If you don't want to do it, then you're a lost cause. Even if you make mistakes along the way, wanting to move in that direction is a positive, right?
Kaye Vassey:
Yeah, you have to have a very forgiving nature to be okay. I believe they can be the best and I believe that they can show the industry how to do what this industry seems to have a problem doing. I believe that Epic can do it better.
Cory Livengood:
That's excellent. Have you found other co-workers feel comfortable confiding in you since you've come out? Has that been a good experience?
Kaye Vassey:
Initially, I was very alone. The more feminine I became, the less my voice mattered to a degree. I felt like I was out there by myself. There were other gay folks, but they kept a very low profile. They never really rocked the boat. They were doing what they had to do to, to work and thrive.
“I think all artists have imposter syndrome…one scroll through Twitter shows me these artists that are much younger than me, and they’re more amazing than I'll ever be. it's learning to cope with that.”
Kaye Vassey:
Again, when you're trans, not to diminish anybody's story, but when you're male to female, the contrast in appearance is what our society is so caught up in. Everybody is constantly gauging you based on your appearance. You're going right to that thing that society loves so much to critique, and you're flipping it on its head. You're going to begin a very, very slow process to achieve what society says is okay for your new “chosen gender." Which to be clear, gender is NOT a choice, but that's the belief thrown at you, right?
Cory Livengood:
Yeah.
Kaye Vassey:
So, walking around Epic like that, I would have people write me and come out to me. They would be like, "Please don't out me." Of course, I would never, never, ever, ever, ever do that, but they would write me and give me supporting words like, “Seeing you at work is giving me hope,” and all those sorts of things. So, I just kept doing what I was doing, which was shouldering all these people's compliments. I felt like I was caring a lot for a lot of people. Once the ERGs opened up, cautiously people started coming out and joining up. Now we’re in the hundreds!
Cory Livengood:
That's awesome.
Kaye Vassey:
Now, it's more about doing bigger things than just making people feel safe. Though that is still such an important aspect in all this. It's much easier now.
Cory Livengood:
It's cool to see how it's grown. Yeah, that's amazing.
Well, we're getting near the end of our time. Two last thoughts, one would just be if you wanted to speak a little bit about what you might be talking about with us at the Bash. If there's any insight you wanted to give towards that, or if there's anything that I didn't ask or some other tidbit that you'd like to drop into this conversation, I'd love to hear it!
Kaye Vassey:
Sure. At the bash, I would love to talk about my career path, how crazy it's been, and highlight some of the little moments that people don't expect; when they're in their careers, and they're feeling trapped, or feel like they’ve made a bad decision along the way. Basically talking about that backup plan, and how that terrible advice turned into okay advice, which turned into good advice, as I got older.
Along with the idea of everyone who's coming out now, how society is changing, and how people like me are going to be existing in spaces in this industry. Animation, art, we've been here the whole time. It's just now that a lot of people are going to have to face us and hear our voices.
Cory Livengood:
Oh, that's great. There’s another question I didn't ask. I wondered if you had any advice for someone who's trying to break into either the film or game industry?
Kaye Vassey:
Totally. That's almost a separate talk unto itself, right?
It's the size of the pond which I sort of touched on and will touch on in my talk. Now, with technology, that pond is the size of the world. It’s not your hometown versus your metropolitan area anymore. I think all artists have imposter syndrome. I won't say every, I'm not going to generalize, but most of the artists I know, when they look at their work, they think it's terrible. Even though it's artwork that has been at the professional level, you still see all your mistakes. You see all the places where you need to work, and the internet can make that even worse. One scroll through Twitter shows me these artists that are so much younger than me, and they’re more amazing than I'll ever be. It's learning to cope with that.
Kaye Vassey:
When it comes to education, in the past, I used to be so big on recommending art schools. But because of that bigger pond and the internet, connections are now available to professionals. You don't have to go to art school to get them, and there are so many online opportunities and professionals who have retired from the industry who are teaching online in their own way. If you have the drive and the passion, then you don't have to go into hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt to make it happen. Not today.
Kaye Vassey:
Now we're in the generation whose online teachers are the people who made Little Mermaid and Lion King, and the '90s Disney films. The students of that first generation. The animation industry is not old. Computer animation is even younger. Video games are young too. We’re finally at this place where we know what one generation of retirement looks like.
If you want to talk about it from a career standpoint, if you're going to be an engineer for a major company, you know what your retirement looks like. If you're going to be a police officer, you know what your retirement looks like. If you're going to be an animator, you could have no idea what your retirement looks like. Because there's not enough of us retired yet, and the ones that are, are the ones that made the best 2D animated films that we grew up with. Now, what they're doing is teaching online for small prices compared to giant art schools.
Cory Livengood:
So true. I often think about how young motion graphics is, but I had not put it in the framework of retirement in that way. It's an interesting way to look at it. After the career what do you do at that point? Who knows, right?
Kaye Vassey:
And right now they're teaching. I can name a bunch. Aaron Blaise, there's CAT Animation, iAnimate, Animation Mentor. I worked with a man named Tim Hodge at Big Idea, he's a wonderful director and was Head of Story on Mulan, he just did a storyboard class. He still does freelance storyboard work for films and he did a class for Aaron Blaise's website. I think it was on sale for $30. It was literally hours of video lecturing with examples for...
Cory Livengood:
$30.
Kaye Vassey:
For 30 bucks. Knowing what I know now as an old person in my mid-40s, if I really had that passion for storyboarding, it was in my heart, why would I consider paying an art school 40 grand to learn those things when I can get a one-on-one lesson with the Head of Story from Mulan for $30? It doesn't make economic sense, right?
Cory Livengood:
It doesn't. As someone who hires people from time to time, the first thing we look at is work. It's not what school you went to.
We’ll look at that, it's always interesting, and that's part of the equation perhaps, but it's really about the portfolio. It's the work. It's not, “Did you go to school?” I don't care. Is it a community college? I don't care. Is it art school? I don't care.
Kaye Vassey:
I mean, I do believe that advanced education can be important when it comes to communication and other aspects of business.
Cory Livengood:
Oh, absolutely, or even networking. There are a lot of reasons why I agree with that statement, but when it comes to the actual work, the skill set, and the passion for it, it's not as important as it used to be.
Kaye Vassey:
If I had it to do over again, the important things that I got from going to art school were deadline and accountability skills. You don't get those when you're just a passionate artist working on your own.
They’re important, but if I had to do it again, I would skew my classes more toward 1.) Computer Science, because that's just a good skill to have now, and 2.), Business. I would ultimately skew more toward business, and do my art every other waking minute; getting feedback from people online, doing the courses at various online animation schools. Because honestly, when I came out of college, I didn't even know how to pay taxes.
Kaye Vassey:
Ultimately, all of us as artists just end up working for someone else helping them accomplish their goals, as opposed to, if you have stories in you, you need a way to get them out. You need a way to make them come to life, and the only way you do that is to work for yourself.
“it's not for the old. it's for the hungry. you need that fire. (animation)”
Cory Livengood:
It's funny if you'd asked me, six, seven years ago if I'd be a business owner, I would have laughed because I was an animator. I was perfectly happy doing that. It’s been quite the journey to learn how to run a business. To create a team. To make people feel like their careers are advancing the way they want them to like they're able to push their skills forward. Also just the nitty-gritty things about taxes, organization, and HR; all that stuff that I wouldn't have known. A little bit of trial by fire on that end but it has been a really exciting journey.
Having worked for people as an animator who didn't know anything about animation or design, it's nice having that foundation when you're talking to clients or you're staff about what is possible, what isn’t possible, what deadlines look like. I have a little more insight than some of my previous employers because I've been in the trenches as it were.
Kaye Vassey:
It's all about self-motivation. The self-motivated artists are the ones who end up succeeding in the studios anyway.
The ones that aren't are going to wash out. Because when it gets tough when you're in your first animation job and you're learning new software, it's not for the old. It's for the hungry. You need that fire.
Cory Livengood:
All right, excellent. Well, really appreciate this conversation. This has been a blast and I'm sure you'll end up repeating yourself, yet again, when we get to the actual event, but great.
Kaye Vassey:
Absolutely.
Cory Livengood:
Great. Good to see you, Kaye.
Kaye Vassey:
Yeah, have a good day. Bye.
Takeover Tuesday with Ayelet Raziel
Q&A with Ayelet Raziel, a Graphic Artist from Israel. She studied graphic design at H.I.T and spent a decade in the design industry including print, branding, and UX.
Q&A with Ayelet Raziel
Read time: 10min
Madison Caprara:
Hey, Ayelet! Could you give us a little intro to yourself and your work? Some background if you will?
Ayelet Raziel:
Hey Madison! Yes definitely. I’m a Visual Creator, Graphic Designer, and Artist. I like to play with shapes and colors to express moments of joy, love, and wonder. Some just for fun and art’s sake, and others in collaborations with like-minded people and organizations. I studied graphic design and worked in various industries including press, branding, and UX. After that, I shifted my focus mainly to independent artistic explorations, and nowadays I am a freelancer, combining the best of all worlds!
Madison Caprara:
What led to you initially choosing graphic design as your career path?
Ayelet Raziel:
I was always a very visual person and liked to draw since I was little. My visual perception tends to be rather graphic and abstract oriented, so I was naturally drawn to this field. Since I’m also very musical, my dream was to design for the music industry (album covers and concert posters) and to express music visually.
Madison Caprara:
And once you chose to go down the path of being a professional creative, how did you go about developing the style that we see today?
Ayelet Raziel:
Interesting question! I was working for a UX company, mainly making standard-looking banners and buttons, until I recognized the internal call to quit my job and focus on drawing. In the beginning, I had no style of my own. I started drawing over photo references and slowly gained the confidence to try new things and make bolder artistic choices.
I meditate a lot, I’ve been doing that regularly for about 10 years. Through meditation and other psychedelic experiences, I was able to reach deeper within myself or outside myself, if you will, to see clearer visions and find new realms of imagination. I constantly try to follow this inner vision and let my heart lead me to whatever feels exciting.
Madison Caprara:
That’s so interesting! I always had this preconceived notion that style was something innate, but it makes more sense to have to work at it.
Now, do you use more manual techniques, or do you prefer digital?
Ayelet Raziel:
I like to explore various techniques and switch between them. Each has a different benefit. So it depends on what vibe I want to achieve in the particular project. I feel the digital tools (for me, drawing on an iPad) allow for more freedom. You can add, subtract, and undo countless times. The process can unfold in surprising ways.
On the other hand, manual techniques, such as ink or markers, allow for a spontaneous one-of-a-kind moment with the sensitivity and detail that digital tools lack. If I can, I try to combine the two or start out one way and continue with the other. For example, I designed the cover art for “Found” by TAMACO. The music is a mixture of tribal and electronic elements. I used a mixed media of ink drawings, acrylic sponge painting, and photoshop gradients to convey that atmosphere.
Madison Caprara:
So beautiful! We’ll have to be sure to include a still for readers to see.
Are you still based in Israel? What’s the creative industry like there?
Ayelet Raziel:
Yes, I am probably here to stay! I would say that, just like everything in Israel, the creative industry is very dense and diverse. There is some of everything, including a lot of room for boldness and self-expression. We are a warm-tempered nation, both in climate and in creation.
Madison Caprara:
Has it been difficult to establish yourself? Do you feel you have had to compete?
Ayelet Raziel:
In financial terms, I luckily had savings and my lifestyle was minimalistic enough to allow me to really make the time for my creative process without stressing about money. Personally, the hardest part about establishing myself has been the internal/psychological aspect, in other words, finding my own creative voice and gaining the confidence to use it. I believe that once you start finding your own unique style, you don’t really have to compete. You just do your thing and if it’s right for a specific project it will naturally fit. There are different projects for different creatives.
Madison Caprara:
And what was your first design job? Or maybe even a piece you can think of that was your first personal success? Something you remember being proud of completing?
Ayelet Raziel:
Wow! It’s hard to say because I tend to make up my own projects. Even as a 10-year old, I created a pop magazine from paper scraps and doodles, made some copies in my dad’s office, and gave it to friends! But my first real design job right after school was at The Marker, one of Israel's biggest financial newspapers. I started at the news desk of the printed newspaper and slowly worked my way up to more interesting projects like magazines and special editions, including cover illustrations for those, which was pretty exciting.
Maybe not the first I was proud of, but one of the first that I felt was really my own creation, was another self-initiated project for a funky 80s party I hosted with some friends. We called it Space Salon. I created both the digital art and the physical art installation at the event. It was a success. People loved it.
Madison Caprara:
Do you have a favorite, or least favorite, type of project? It seems like you dedicate a lot of time to your personal works!
Ayelet Raziel:
My favorite projects are the ones where I can collaborate with others on something cool. For example, our party, or a concert, even an event. I enjoy watching the work come to life with others all while serving the ultimate goal of fulfilling a fun, creative purpose. My least favorite projects? Well, I guess that would be those with a stressful deadline or when the client has a lot of last-minute comments and changes, but I usually end up learning and growing from those as well.
Madison Caprara:
We spoke a little on it earlier, but how important do you feel it is to create your own style as a designer? How do you balance this against the client’s or project’s needs?
Ayelet Raziel:
Maintaining my individual style is very important to me. There’s always a way to uphold it while still meeting the client’s needs. There are endless ways to approach a challenge, so as long as you are flexible, you will find a creative solution that works for both sides.
Madison Caprara:
What has surprised you most about the design industry?
Ayelet Raziel:
Since I’ve been a freelancer, I’ve found my own niche. I now feel less a part of some big industry and more like a person just doing my thing. You can say that’s something that still surprises me. Everyone can find their place eventually without needing to push, even if it takes a little while.
Madison Caprara:
And are there any ethical issues you believe this industry needs to work on?
Ayelet Raziel:
When I was working full-time for other employers, mainly within the print and branding industries, there was often a feeling that junior designers are expected to give a lot of time and energy, and aren’t always properly rewarded for that. I hope things improve in that sense.
Madison Caprara:
Where do you go for inspiration?
Ayelet Raziel:
A lot of my ideas and inspirations come from meditating. Sometimes I can sit to meditate and suddenly have a vision or flash of colors. Music can also very much bring me to that place within because I often experience sound visually in shapes and colors. But really, inspiration can come from anywhere; I try to keep my heart and mind open and seek wonder in everything I do.
Madison Caprara:
Well, it was great getting to know more about you and your work, Ayelet. Before we wrap up, do you have any closing points that you would like to end on?
Ayelet Raziel:
Stay true to yourself. Do what excites you; you’re the one who does it best and that’s what the world needs.
Routes to Raleigh: Dashing from the North
Let’s say that, hypothetically, one or more of you fine folks would choose to road trip to our beautiful city for the Bash. Boy, do we have a (hypothetical) itinerary for you! Parts two and three to follow shortly.
Road Trip Itinerary. Vancouver, BC to Raleigh, NC.
Read time: 5min
(1) Starting Point: Vancouver, BC
Vancouver Financial District. Getty, https://bit.ly/vancouverstockphoto.
To Do: Stanley Park, an absolutely massive 1,000-acre urban park in Vancouver’s backyard. Head over in the morning and spend a few hours exploring the zoo, beaches, and aquarium.
To Eat: Kissa Tanto, tucked away in the upper story of a faded building in Chinatown you’ll find one of the city’s hottest supper clubs. Kissa Tanto fuses the flavors of Japan with the warmth of Italian cooking.
To Drink: The Diamond, a cocktail lounge in the heart of Gastown with an old soul. The Diamond is a cool, laid-back place to meet a friend for a cocktail and apps. Additional fun fact, it was given number 17 in a roundup of the top 50 bars in Canada.
(2) Seattle, Washington
To Stay: Ace Hotel Seattle, a boutique hotel set in former maritime workers' lodging. This trendy hotel in the Belltown district is a nine-minute walk from both Pike Place Market and Olympic Sculpture Park.
To Do: Pike Place Market, home to more than 200 artisans selling everything from homemade baked goods to hand-thrown ceramics.
To Eat: Pestle Rock, Serving up Thai cuisine in the heart of Ballard, Pestle Rock is a culinary gem. Most are used to the taste of Bangkok-style Thai food, think Pad Thai, but don’t come here looking for that. Pestle Rock specializes in Thai food from Isan, known for its pungent, spicy dishes.
To Drink: La Marzocco Cafe, a chic coffee shop slinging beans from around the world and bites from The London Plane.
(3) Minneapolis, Minnesota
Minneapolis Skyline at Dusk. Getty, https://bit.ly/minnstockphoto.
To Stay: Alma Hotel, a 15-minute walk from the central downtown area, Alma is a beautiful, boho-styled boutique hotel. Bonus: the hotel’s restaurant sources its produce seasonally from local organic growers and makers.
To Do: Minneapolis Institute of Art, home to more than 90,000 art pieces, MIA is one of the largest art museums in the U.S.
To Eat: Named after two grandmothers, Sooki and Mimi is James Beard Award-Winning chef, Ann Kim's, newest restaurant located in the uptown neighborhood of Minneapolis.
To Drink: Meteor, in their own words, “An old ass bar with good ass drinks.” Enough said.
(4) Madison, Wisconsin
Madison, Wisconsin. iStock, https://bit.ly/madisonstockphoto.
To Stay: Graduate Madison, located just a block from the university’s campus, Graduate is set alongside Lake Mendota on historic Langdon Street, and just around the corner from Memorial Union Terrace.
To Do: Captial Farmers Market, if you happen to be there on a Saturday morning—on the drive back, perhaps—check out the Danes County Farmers Market around the capital building. There is a large variety of vendors; you can even eat breakfast combining the carts. Enjoy a picnic of your goodies on the capital grass!
To Eat: The Old Fashioned, paying tribute to all things Wisconsin. From cheese curds to 50 local beers on tap, they have it all.
To Drink: Showcasing new and innovative spirits from microdistilleries around the Midwest, The Robin Room is a cozy cocktail hangout in a retro space.
(5) Charleston, South Carolina
To Stay: Hotel Emeline, a trendy boutique hotel located in a restored estate from 1852. The hotel is a minute’s walk from the Charleston City Market and a mile from The Battery defensive seawall. Bonus, doggos welcome!
To Do: The Battery, a pedestrian-only walkway and park along Charleston’s waterfront. You’ll find Charleston’s famous Pineapple Fountain here. Pineapples are a symbol of welcoming in the south, and this fountain is one of the most visited sites in the city.
To Eat: Leon’s Oyster Shop, a relaxed seafood joint serving oysters, southern-style meals, and fried chicken in a cool space with a patio.
To Drink: Félix, a Parisian-inspired cocktail bar and small plates restaurant in the heart of Charleston.
Welcome to Raleigh, Northerners!
The Start of STATE, with Dash Bash speaker, Marcel Ziul
Meryn Hayes had a chat with Marcel Ziul, Creative Director and Founder of STATE.
Growing up in the suburbs of Sao Paulo, Ziul moved to the U.S. in 2007 after working with some of the top studios in Brazil. Read on to learn more about his journey and how STATE came to be.
Q&A with Marcel Ziul
Read time: 10 min
Meryn Hayes:
Today I’m speaking with Marcel Ziul from STATE design, welcome.
Marcel Ziul:
Thanks for having me.
Meryn Hayes:
Marcel is a Creative Director and founder of STATE. Growing up in the suburbs of Sao Paulo, he moved to the U.S. in 2007. As a freelancer, he has contributed his talents to Prologue Films, Stardust, Zoic Studios, Troika, Shilo, Apple, MAL/TBWA, and Bigstar, where he served as an Art Director and Lead Animator on the Bio Channel rebrand.
Marcel’s amazing work is highlighted by several awards and nominations.
Meryn Hayes:
We're so excited. The Bash is getting close. I feel like we've been planning it for so long and now it's actually happening. The more we talk to our speakers, the more excited I'm getting, and the less stressed I'm feeling about the logistics.
Marcel Ziul:
I know. It's exciting. I was thinking the other day, the conference is happening in September, but September is already here. Now I need to take a look at my keynotes.
Meryn Hayes:
It's time to start prepping.
Marcel Ziul:
Exactly.
Meryn Hayes:
Awesome. Do you want to tell us a little bit about yourself and how you got into the industry?
Marcel Ziul:
Yeah. I joined the industry totally out of the blue. I was going to med school, actually, and realized that it wasn't for me. My dad saw me through that process. He owned clubs back in Brazil and I used to do all the flyers for them. He was like, “dude, you love designing, why don't you talk to a friend of mine who has a studio? Maybe he can get you an internship?" I went there, talked to the guy, and started as their PA. I was doing things for shoots, organizing cables, all of that.
I would stay at the studio from 6 AM until I finished my shift at 6 PM. Even then, I’d stay longer to go to the post-production room to ask the guys questions. I was doing tutorials at that time. One day the main 3D guy was on vacation and they had to animate a logo. My boss needed to find a freelancer and asked if anyone knew someone that could tackle it. I said, "I can do it, I've been doing tutorials. I can do this thing." It came out good. From there, I was promoted to the post-production side.
Marcel Ziul:
This was all in my hometown. My town is medium-sized. It has almost a million people and is close to Sao Paulo, but the industry is super small. It's not big, so I wanted to go somewhere else. I moved to Sao Paulo and started working with bigger shops, doing my thing. After that, I went to Rio to work in this big production house. Then I moved to LA. Here I am.
Meryn Hayes:
That's awesome. It's so interesting, I've talked with a few people throughout the industry about this. Sometimes when people are getting started in their careers, they realize something's just not working. For example, you tried med school…It’s easy to think of these times as points where we're failing ourselves.
I started out doing photography and realized halfway through college that I didn’t want to move to New York to be a photographer. I was really hard on myself but realized through those curves of my career path that finding out what you don't want to do is as important as finding out what you do want to do. You find your way to where you're supposed to be through those challenges and moments where you're identifying, “Is this what I want for myself?”
Meryn Hayes:
Med school is a really big deal and hard to get into. Was that a tough decision for you? It sounds like you had a lot of support from your family, which I'm sure helped.
Marcel Ziul:
Well, it wasn't a hard decision for me. You're right about knowing what you don't like to do. It's important. I usually say this to clients when I present something for them, let's say, mood boards. I say, if you don't know what you like, just tell me what you don't like.
Meryn Hayes:
Totally.
Marcel Ziul:
But in regards to transitioning from med school to this industry, I don't think it was a hard decision. It was a moment of clarity. When I think back, my dad had such a vision, that he too realized, "Dude, you don't like this. Why are you going to continue?" It's also hard to be 100% sure of what you're going to do when you're younger. We all carry that pressure and feel that we need to know.
“STATE, meaning the state of mind, or ‘this is your state.’ this is a place where you can come and be yourself…”
No, sometimes you need to make decisions and that's the beauty of this thing, you can just re-correct. When I started working at the studio, I could tell it was right because I was putting in so many hours after work. Let's say I would work in the studio from 9 AM to 6 PM and then at 6 PM, I would go to the post-production division and stay there with the guys. I was putting in all the hours. It was a passion. To me, it was an easy decision.
Meryn Hayes:
That's so interesting. Then what? You moved to LA. What year was that?
Marcel Ziul:
I moved to LA in 2007--I'm going to talk about this in my keynote. The funny thing is that in Brazil, things are so different. There is a lack of planning, not that the U.S. has the best planning efforts, but we plan stuff better here in the States than in Brazil. I got tired of that. I got tired of the disorganization, working crazy hours, and having no weekends for six months. It was time for me to go and do other things. I was in between the U.S. and Australia.
Marcel Ziul:
I had a studio in Sydney that wanted to hire me, but I was really into the studios here in the U.S. I came to LA and met with a studio called Belief. It's old. I don't think people are going to remember it, but Belief was like BUCK back in the day; the go-to studio. Everyone wanted to work there.
I talked to Belief and they wanted to hire me. It was so awesome. I went back to Brazil and said, "Well, I'm moving to the States. Bye." They did all of my paperwork because it's such a big deal. One thing that people here in the U.S. don't realize is that when you hire someone from a different country, it is a big deal for a foreigner. You have no clue. I remember going to my farewell party with all of my friends and family there. Everyone was crying. It's not an easy thing to do. It's not like moving from New York to LA.
Marcel Ziul:
For us, it's a huge deal. I would never have expected that I would be here for this much time, but I love it. I would stay longer for sure.
Meryn Hayes:
So you were working in LA, what led to the start of STATE? How did that happen?
Marcel Ziul:
That's an interesting question. It was mid-2013, until that point, I was a freelancer. I was also doing projects on the side with a friend of mine, Marcos, who's an amazing Art Director and Creative Director--he's awesome, we're still friends. We were doing projects on the side where we would get the overflow work from studios and do it ourselves. We had a space and it was like we were in this limbo mode: do a project, go back to freelancing with studios, do another project, more freelancing. I got tired of it. This whole movement. We weren’t a studio and we weren’t freelancing a hundred percent.
I felt the necessity to create something I could put all of my time into. I talked to a friend of mine about building a studio. He wasn't ready for that. He wanted to be a director. So, I decided to move to New York. I was tired of LA; Hollywood, the flashy people. I wanted to go somewhere else, but then something crazy happened. I was doing my green card at the time and I needed letters of support to show to immigration so that I could stay in the U.S. as a resident.
Marcel Ziul:
I called the NFL and asked, "Hey, you guys tried to hire me in the past. Could you write me a letter stating that?" The guy never got back to me. Two weeks go by, I'm like, "Oh snap." I sent another email. Finally, he responded and asked if I could come by the next day. I showed up and he started talking to me about a project I had no idea about. I asked why he was talking to me about a project when I had come for a letter. I didn’t get it. He was like, "Letter, what letter? Dude, I thought you were here for work.” He ended up giving me the letter and telling me he’d call in a month.
Marcel Ziul:
A month later, he called me with a project. By then I had realized that I did not want to work with a friend of mine. I wanted to build something. My wife came to me and said, "Hey, I can be the producer on the project. Then we can hire other people. What do you think?" I agreed and we took on the first project. We did another one and another after that. We did maybe three to four projects with the NFL when one day, Carlos came to me with an offer.
Carlos was a client of the NFL. He's an amazing friend. I love that guy so much. He came to me with “the biggest project of the season.” No pitch needed, he wanted to give it to me. The only kicker was that I couldn’t work from home. I needed to have a space because he needed to be able to take his boss to an official office. With bigger projects, you need more stuff.
Meryn Hayes:
Show me you're legitimate.
Marcel Ziul:
He gave me two weeks to pull that together. One of the producers on the NFL side was a friend of mine--Joe Nash. He's now an Executive Producer at BUCK, but back then he was leaving the NFL. Carlos suggested Joe and I get together to do the project. Joe came to work as the producer and then we got a space together.
It felt right. We loved working together. We loved each other. We asked ourselves, “Why don't we become partners and build a studio?” Then, STATE was born. It happened out of the blue. It wasn't something planned or structured.
Meryn Hayes:
It's funny. There are a lot of ways to start a studio, but that's similar to what happened with Mack and Cory. They were working at an agency--that's where I met them--they got a project that they were going to take on freelance, and they decided they were going to leave the agency to do it. Then, they started working together and ‘Mack and Cory’ turned into dash. How long were y'all working together on that project for the NFL?
Marcel Ziul:
We worked on the project for about four months. It was huge. We had to shoot and everything. In the middle of this whole project, we liked working together so much. Joe and I were like, “oh man, now let's get a space, and let's keep this going. You're the Creative Director, I'm the EP, let's go.” He started doing business development, and we began to get a bunch of small projects. Like really small projects, but for us it was awesome.
Joe was with STATE for another year, then I think...I don't know. I don't want to put words in his mouth, but I think it was too much for him to be the owner. The responsibility and the hours. Once you become the owner of the studio, there's no more nine to six. It's nine to whatever. Joe decided to leave because he wanted to do something else. He wanted to be a farmer. He went back to Connecticut to pursue that.
Meryn Hayes:
That's awesome!
So, where does STATE’s name come from? How did y'all come up with that?
Marcel Ziul:
It's funny because we had another art director who was supposed to be with us as a partner. The three of us were all trying to bounce names around and what we came with was just bad. We came up with ridiculous names and Joe's mom, she's a consultant for Google, was like, "send me your name ideas and I'll let you know if you guys are heading to the right direction,” as far as branding and recognition go. We sent the names to her and she told us they were all terrible. Eventually, we came up with STATE, meaning the state of mind, or ‘this is your state.’ This is a place where you can come and be yourself, something like that. She liked it! Short, strong, and has good meaning behind it.
Meryn Hayes:
Awesome. In the beginning, those early days, what were some of the challenges you didn't expect to be dealing with?
Marcel Ziul:
Well, there's a funny story. We started our studio. Right? Cool. We booked a few freelancers. I was working one day and one of them came to me and said, "Hey, Marcel, can I talk to you?" All I could think about was how awesome this was. He was running a project at MY studio, and now he needs to talk to me. He comes to me, and he's like, "Hey we need toilet paper." I'm like, "Oh God, this is the shit that we have to deal with."
That was the first wake-up call. I realized that we needed to take care of the space and have things in place. Structured. Having a studio is like having a kid. I mean, I have two kids and love them to death. They are my life, but it's so hard as a parent because it's a 24-hour thing. I'm always there and always taking care of them--they're two and six. The company is the same. If I tell someone who wants to have a kid how hard it is, people will never have kids.
Marcel Ziul:
They'll be like, “Forget about this. You're not going to sleep. You're going to do this. You're going to do that. Whatever.” Having a company is the same.
Meryn Hayes:
Same way.
“…when something becomes a business, a really big business, it loses its soul.”
Marcel Ziul:
It's the same way. There are hard problems. If someone tells you beforehand, you wouldn’t want to have a studio, but I think the biggest fear for me, in the beginning, was the cash flow. We got projects and you feel good, but now you need money to produce the projects. You need to have money to finance the project, then get paid later. We have to develop a system for that. It was pretty cool, but for me, just that anxiety of not knowing was hard. The business side of it was pretty intense.
Meryn Hayes:
I have a four-and-a-half-year-old, and I can totally empathize. I think for so long, I felt like a bad mom because nobody talks about how hard it is. I was just like, “is it me?” Then I realized that nobody talks about it. It's just hard. I like that comparison, that if people talked about how hard it was to start a business or a studio, they wouldn't do it because it is hard.
Mack and Cory, when I met them, they were animators. Now they own this business. They can empathize with the whole mindset shifting from a creative to the business side and how different that is. Do you feel you just had to figure it out on your own? Or did you have resources early on that were helping you figure out the business side of things? Because that's just something that if you're not used to it, it's out of left field for a lot of creatives.
Marcel Ziul:
This is a good question because I never understood what my dad used to do with me in terms of preparing me for the world. He always had his own business and he was always teaching me things. I remember going to my dad’s work helping him at his business and I would complain about something. I'd be like, "Hey dad, did you see that thing is broken?" He would be like, "You already identified that it's broken. Why don't you go and fix it? You know the problem. How do you solve it?" He was always giving me that mindset. I used to hate when he would say that to me.
Then when I started running STATE, I realized how necessary those lessons were, because I saw all the problems and was already thinking about how to solve them. The transition from being an artist to a business owner wasn't that hard for me because I was trained for it by my parents. But if you're not ready, some give up along the way.
Marcel Ziul:
I think the biggest hurdle I had to overcome was learning when to be the creative director and when to be the owner. It's like being an animator and a designer at the same time.
Meryn Hayes:
That's so interesting and such an important mindset because again, you're trying to make the best creative possible. Taking the side of the business, which might impact what you'd say about the creative direction and focusing on the project or the client or the creative or whatever the task is. To your point, you can figure out the logistics or the cost or the extra stuff on the other side, but to focus on the creative, to make sure that it really shines through. That's great advice. How big is the studio now?
Marcel Ziul:
I think STATE has a staff of 20 to 25 now.
Meryn Hayes:
In those early days, how conscious were you of how many you wanted on staff? Was growth more so based on the creative needs for client work and projects?
Marcel Ziul:
Our biggest thing when building the studio was going back to how we started this conversation--we knew what we didn't want to be. We didn't want to be like the big studios because I believe that when something becomes a business, a really big business, it loses its soul. Most of this is because I believe that when clients look at STATE, they can see our soul. They can see how much heart we put into our projects. I always thought that if we got too big, we would lose that component, which is so important to me.
I never thought about having a studio with 25 people. Did I want to have a studio that had 50 people? Maybe not, maybe I'm fine with 25, maybe I'm fine with 20. Maybe I'm fine with 15. To me, it's all about measuring how much heart is still coming out of STATE. If we’re still producing with passion and people can see our soul, cool. If that component starts getting lost, then we're getting too big in terms of structure. But I never had that mindset of exactly how many people we needed.
Meryn Hayes:
That's great. I’ll probably steal that quote. I love that. Measuring how much heart. Sometimes people can get too caught up in the tangible aspect. I mean, I understand businesses have to be tangible for many reasons, but I love the idea of keeping on the pulse of how it’s feeling. The soul of the work that's coming out. So, you were in New York when you started and now you're back in LA. Is that right?
Marcel Ziul:
No. I never moved to New York. I was moving but then…
Meryn Hayes:
Then STATE was born, so you never left.
Marcel Ziul:
Yeah. Never did.
Meryn Hayes:
I was like, “how did you get back to LA?” But you never left.
Marcel Ziul:
Never left. We never made the move, which is something that, every time I go to New York, is the biggest frustration of my life. I never lived in the city. I think I needed that, but it's fine. Now I'm at a different point in my life. I can go to New York anytime.
Just quickly going back to that heart thing, I was talking to a friend of mine the other day. This guy is so amazing. He’s unbelievable. Every time I talk to him, he’s like, “I have three businesses. Now, I have five businesses.” He's always building. At one point, he was going through a rough time. He has a studio back home, back in Brazil. I told him this. I said, "You know what's happening with you? You were putting money ahead of everything. Your end goal is always cash. I can guarantee to you I never put money ahead of STATE, no." I said, “all you have to do is work hard, and love what you do. Do you show up excited about this business? Can people see that through your words? Through your work? Through your conversations? Yes?” If people see that, money becomes a consequence.
“when you say no to others, you're saying yes to yourself. we look at ‘no’ as a crime…those ‘nos’ got me here.”
Marcel Ziul:
Like at STATE, if you could see the amount of work that we say no to because these projects have nothing to do with what we are. They’re just going to be about the money. If it's just money, you lose the soul. We're not doing our thing. It misses the mission statement of the studio which is what’s important. A few days later, he called me. He had gotten rid of two of his businesses and is now just focusing on the studio.
Meryn Hayes:
That's great. That's something that I think is difficult for people, in general, to say no to from a business perspective. Especially for people who are just starting in their freelance career or are just starting a studio. Saying no is especially hard because of the money. Do you think that that's something that's gotten easier? Or would you say that y'all were just as willing to say “no” early on to keep up with the soul of the studio? Has it gotten any easier over time?
Marcel Ziul:
It gets easier. My wife once said something to me that was cool. She said, “when you say no to others, you're saying yes to yourself.” We look at “no” as a crime. My whole keynote at the Dash Bash should be talking about the power of “no”. How “no” got me here. Am I the most successful studio out there? No. Am I the most successful person to myself? Maybe, yes? I'm happy with me. Those “no’s” got me here.
Even the way that you take on rejection is important. For example, I've seen people when they lose pitches. They get so mad. But there's always a victory when pitching. You pitch them something and if you get a “no”, you go back and ask why you got the rejection from your client. Is it because of your idea? Was it because of a business relationship? You find so many important answers through “nos” that we don't even realize.
Meryn Hayes:
I love that. The introspection. It's so easy to get caught up in why you didn't win a pitch or why the client didn't like something. But I really appreciate the introspection of learning from why something didn’t work.
Early on as a Producer, I didn't know how to talk to clients or I didn't know the answer to a question. Just take a breath. Take a minute and figure it out. Learn from whatever the client is saying or the issue and you can move forward. We sometimes feel as if we need to say “yes” or have an answer right away. There's that service side of what we do that pushes people to overcome it or to say that they know how to do something when they don't. To your point of being introspective and taking a look at why we are doing something, that's meaningful.
Marcel Ziul:
When we do post mortem on a project--we do that a lot at STATE--after we finish a project, we get everyone together and talk about it. What did we learn? We did a project for this big client that I'm not going to disclose because, of course, they're my friends, but we did a project for this big client. I was trying to work with them for five years. Five years! Going to meetings, visiting, taking them to lunches and dinners, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, everything. We got the project. That's cool. We start the project. Good budget and everything, and then financially, the project was a disaster.
How the hell we blew up that budget, I didn't understand. Looking back, the client was confused most of the time. They didn't know what they wanted. I think they became so excited about the relationship, that when they got to work with us, they wanted to do everything at once. After we delivered the project, we came back to our post-mortem to talk about it and something that came to my mind was the price of education. We pay for education. You go to college, you pay. You want to take a class, you pay. It's the same thing in business. Sometimes you have to pay to learn from your clients.
Marcel Ziul:
So, we blew up the budget. There's a way to go about processing that. You can either look at it as you blew it up because you did the project wrong, OR you can see it as a learning experience. We were learning how to work with that particular client. Now, if we do another project with them, we know how they work. You can always see things as an absolute failure or you can analyze the negativity that came with it. There's always something that you learn through mistakes.
Meryn Hayes:
That's so true. The value of a project, even when it doesn't go right, is that you learned how to work with the other person, which is different from client to client. Sometimes when you're going through it, it's a struggle. Then you're able to step back and breathe and really look retrospectively. Do you always do post mortems with the clients?
“we pay for education. you go to college, you pay. you want to take a class, you pay. it's the same thing in business. sometimes you have to pay to learn your clients.”
Marcel Ziul:
Only sometimes with the clients. Some clients are not open to it. We always do it internally though because there's always something you're going to take away. When you're in the middle of a project, it can feel pretty awkward and uncomfortable. What I learned is that the biggest issue with our industry, there are a lot, but the biggest issue is communication.
For example, let's talk about notes. You get a note from a client that has five paragraphs. All they want to say is to make the composition a little brighter. But instead of saying that in one sentence, they write a novel to you. Communication is a huge deal. Not a lot of people know how to communicate with a few words.
Meryn Hayes:
You have to translate what they're saying.
Marcel Ziul:
Then you read it and realize that all they want is to make that object in the background red.
Meryn Hayes:
It's like…you wrote all that to say that?
Thinking about the business side of what we do is something that's not learned in school. The other thing is communication and providing feedback. I went to art school for photography and we had all kinds of critiques, but it's not inherent. You have to learn to give good feedback. That goes both for other creatives and for clients. To your point, education is so important. Sometimes it's lost on us because we live in this world. We know what feedback we're looking for, but if this is the first time that the clients have worked with us or the first time they've ever done video animation, we forget that they might not know everything. You don't know what you don't know. That education is just so crucial.
Marcel Ziul:
This is so silly. How many times you were on a call and then the client gave you a note and you're like, “Okay, cool. No worries.” Then you hang up and you're like, “I have no clue.” It happens a lot.
Meryn Hayes:
It happened like three times today.
Marcel Ziul:
One way that I learned how to make sure you and the clients are on the same level is just through honesty. They give me a note that I don't understand, I tell them I don't understand it. There was a moment a couple of weeks ago, we were on a call with this huge client. He gave me an explanation of what he wanted and then asked if I understood. I immediately said, no. I could tell that he got uncomfortable. I was uncomfortable too. We were on the same level. We talked through the notes, and he explained it to me again. I went back to the team, fixed the problem, and sent it back. He was like, “dude, awesome, approved!”
Meryn Hayes:
Perfect.
Marcel Ziul:
If I had said okay and went back to my team, I would have had no clue what to do. All you want is to be on the same level as your client so that you can all understand each other, which is hard to do. It's not easy to say I don't understand. We feel the pressure to say we got it. We're so smart. We understand everything you say. No, sometimes there is confusion too.
Meryn Hayes:
Totally. It goes back to what I was thinking earlier, the pressure of feeling you're always supposed to know the answer. You can read the client's mind, it will, to your point, save a lot of back and forth and confusion to just clear the air and be like, “I don't understand.” But it's hard for people.
Marcel Ziul:
It's hard to be vulnerable. People are afraid and that goes back to what I was saying at the beginning. It's so key to feel comfortable being vulnerable. It's fine to not have an answer. I make bad decisions too. Sometimes I don't know what I'm doing and that’s ok.
Meryn Hayes:
That's so important. That's great. Let's see. How has the last year been for y'all? Do you feel the pandemic in the last 18 months has shifted how you work?
“it's hard to be vulnerable. people are afraid…it's so key to feel comfortable being vulnerable. it's fine to not have an answer. I make bad decisions too. sometimes I don't know what I'm doing and that’s ok.”
Marcel Ziul:
Well, yes and no. For STATE, diversity has always been a big thing for us. I have always worked with people from all around the world. I don’t care if someone is in whatever country, different times. I kick off artists at midnight. No problem. If they're in Europe and I want to work with someone there, I'll do it. In that aspect, it didn't change much.
What did take a little bit of time for the team was understanding how to work from home. It took us about one to two months to understand that flow. I have to say, workflow didn't change as much because we're always busy, but I did miss seeing other people. I'm a people person. I miss that interaction. But as far as the studio, it was a smooth transition. I care about how people feel these days, because of mental health, especially Zoom. I can do three Zooms in a row, but I need a 15-minute break after. I’ll even push calls unless it's with a client.
Marcel Ziul:
We had to adapt a little bit here and there, especially with the servers. I'm sure you guys have to do the same, but we had the system already set up. It wasn't that hard. The only big thing that happened was we signed a new lease for a new space a week before the lockdown.
Meryn Hayes:
No!
Marcel Ziul:
We have a new space that no one has ever been to.
Meryn Hayes:
Oh my gosh. That's wild.
Well, we are almost out of time, but I just want to say this was awesome. I am so looking forward to your presentation and hearing everybody celebrate and clap for you. We'll grab a beer after and celebrate. Thank you so much for giving all your insights. You have such an interesting story. I know everybody at the Bash is going to be stoked to hear what you have to say.
Marcel Ziul:
I'm super excited. I have so much respect for what you guys are doing, so whatever I can support I'll be up for it.
Meryn Hayes:
Thank you. We really appreciate that.
Marcel Ziul:
Bye Meryn, bye.
Meryn Hayes:
Bye.
Takeover Tuesday with Sibel Balac
Q&A with Sibel Balac, an Illustrator based in Stuttgart, Germany. She studied Communication Design at the State Academy of Fine Arts Stuttgart, with a personal focus on illustration.
Q&A with Sibel Balac
Read time: 5min
Madison Caprara:
Hey, Sibel! Why don’t you start off by giving a little intro to yourself and your work?
Sibel Balac:
Hi! I’m a Graphic Designer and Illustrator from Germany. Together with some other creative friends, I work in a lovely studio in the heart of Stuttgart. Since I graduated last year with a degree in Communication Design, I have had the pleasure to work on several exciting editorials and commercial illustration jobs.
Madison Caprara:
Did you have an interest in illustrating from a young age, or was it something that was built over time?
Sibel Balac:
Like many of us, I started in design studies because I loved drawing as a child. I quickly realized that graphic design is much more than just drawing. Over time, I’ve learned to enjoy every part of the whole graphic design spectrum, even though I frequently catch myself trying to include illustration in my design projects. That’s why I tended to focus more and more on illustration towards the end of my studies. Besides illustration, my heart beats faster for editorial design, animation, and documentary photography.
Madison Caprara:
Amazing! Now, are you working freelance or in-house for a studio? Either way, how has your experience been?
Sibel Balac:
Right now I’m working as a Freelance Illustrator and Part-Time Graphic Design Teacher at a vocational college. Before that, I had worked in a few design studios and companies as a graphic designer. Both have their ups and downs, still, I do prefer the work as a freelancer myself. We tend to work a lot, whether freelance or in-house, but my experiences have shown me that I feel more motivated when putting time into my own little business. Another part I genuinely enjoy is being independent and flexible in creating your working hours, also the fact that you’re always learning through all of the different kinds of projects and topics you get to work on.
Madison Caprara:
You had said that you’re currently based in Stuttgart, yes? What is the creative industry like?
Sibel Balac:
Design is totally wanted in Germany. Many young people tend to work in the creative field. Still, it’s a really fast-moving industry and people tend to get burned out quickly. I do not think that it is only a “German-thing”, many in our industry tend to neglect their work-life balance easily. Hopefully, this is something we all can change in the near future.
Madison Caprara:
Looking past the burnout, how has living there affected your work for the better?
Sibel Balac:
I think living and growing up in Germany affected my work in a good way. Germany is a multi-cultural country where you easily meet other creative people from all around the world and exchange different work approaches. We also had a lot of international guests at our university for workshops or presentations, it always helps to grow watching others’ work processes. Even though I like to live and work in Germany, nowadays the internet makes it easy to connect with all kinds of people regardless of where you live. Especially as a freelancer who’s active online, and that’s amazing right?
Madison Caprara:
And when you do outsource work or projects, say with U.S.-based clients, how has your experience been?
Sibel Balac:
So far, not much different from clients from Germany. If I’m totally honest, my biggest issue is still the nervousness before every call in English since I’m not a native speaker!
Madison Caprara:
Let’s take a closer look at your work. Your illustrations are so colorful and beautiful! Is there a specific subject matter or genre that you tend to favor?
Sibel Balac:
Thanks a lot! I definitely enjoy drawing women, I love to play with their body shapes. Topic related, I’m open to everything but I’d say I especially like to deal with fashion, feminism, travel, and cultural matters.
Madison Caprara:
What is your biggest critique when it comes to the current state of the art and design industry?
Sibel Balac:
Glorifying overworking. I often get the feeling that people in our industry measure their worth depending on how much they work. Time outs are important for every human being and it’s extra important to do other things other than designing day in and out.
Madison Caprara:
How many hours a day do you think you spend drawing? Do you still have that time to draw for your own pleasure outside of commissions or client work?
Sibel Balac:
Hmm, around four to eight hours, it really depends. Since I just graduated, not even a year ago, I luckily still find some time to work on personal projects. I guess that will change within the years, but I will try to always find time for personal projects.
Madison Caprara:
You’ve sort of touched on it, but just how important do you think it is that artists take time to create for themselves?
Sibel Balac:
In my opinion, it’s the most important part of working independently. Everything starts with personal projects and if you’d like to work on jobs in a specific field you should show your potential and ideas for such projects. It’s a good way of getting closer to your dream commissions. Of course, client work is equally important if you’ve been in the business for quite a while, but from my point of view, you should always take some time to create for yourself.
Madison Caprara:
Where do you go for inspiration?
Sibel Balac:
I get a lot of my inspiration from social media, especially nowadays with the whole COVID-pandemic. Other than that I like to collect art books, visit exhibitions, and travel whenever it’s possible. To me, there’s nothing more inspiring than seeing new things, learning about other cultures, and trying new foods.
Madison Caprara:
Well, we’re about to wrap up, Sibel. Do you have any closing points you would like to share?
Sibel Balac:
Something I learned just recently myself. If you have a passion for something and want to be good at it, just do it! Work on your goals every day, even if only for half an hour. Create the work you want to do to get the jobs you aspire to have. Not every work will be your best, but see it as a process and be proud of it.
Starting a Studio with OK Motion Club
dash’s Producer, Meryn Hayes, sat down with Dash Bash speakers, Amanda Schrembeck and Linda McNeil, of OK Motion Club.
OK Motion Club is an Atlanta-based animation studio that specializes in short-form content. Their goal is to empower other women, non-binary people, and minorities within the industry.
Q&A with OK Motion Club
Read time: 15 min
Meryn Hayes:
I'm so glad that y'all are coming to speak at the festival. Before you signed on, the second y'all announced on Twitter that you were starting OK Motion Club, all of the women in our studio were like, "Oh my gosh, this is amazing." We’ve just fallen in love with the work and with you guys.
Amanda Schrembeck:
Linda was randomly like, "I feel like we should make a Twitter account." It ended up blowing up, more than most of our other channels. We were like, "maybe we should use this more."
Meryn Hayes:
Yeah, yeah. It was awesome.
Cool. Well, I will start, and I'll ask this of both of you. How did each of you get into motion design? What was your journey? How did you end up meeting? Linda, do you want to go first?
Linda McNeil:
Yeah. So I went to school for graphic design. When I graduated, I got an internship, which turned into a freelance position. It included a little bit of motion graphics. While I was working at that studio, I learned a lot more about the industry and got into it from there. That was ten years ago.
Meryn Hayes:
It’s always hard to believe how time flies.
Linda McNeil:
I know.
Amanda Schrembeck:
When I was a kid, I would mess around in PowerPoint and make animations. I downloaded Flash before it was Adobe Animate, and would just mess around with stuff. I think that was my first toe-dip into seeing what the medium could do. Then I actually went to school for printmaking, and quickly realized when I graduated there were not a ton of printmaking jobs out in the world, surprise, surprise. But I still love it dearly. I eventually ended up going into graphic design.
Through that, I don't know...one day, I was like, "I think I want to learn After Effects." So I opened the program and pretty quickly closed it because it was terrifying. But that was when I was a junior designer. I had more time at my job to mess around and learn things. I had also met Linda a few years before that. She and my husband worked at Huge together. So I feel like Linda was also a pretty big source of inspiration for me because I knew that she taught herself and I felt like I could also teach myself. So it went from there. Honestly, just curiosity and online tutorials.
Meryn Hayes:
That's awesome. Also, total aside, I went to school for photography, but I took one printmaking class. It was so much fun. I really feel like with what we do every day, everything digital and on the computer, the complete reverse of that is really tactile. It must be a really good outlet because you get the balance of both.
Amanda Schrembeck:
Yeah. I do miss it a lot. When you spend all day on the computer you do really miss just drawing, and physically printing something. Both of us have hobbies outside of doing this, and we both still have a passion for fine arts. So any way we can try and incorporate it is ideal. If it's through merch, or just having an experimental craft day, that's something we want to get into.
Meryn Hayes:
That's awesome. So, y'all had met, what was the point that you were like, "alright, we're going to start this thing together?"
Amanda Schrembeck:
I actually looked back at our messages the other day, just to...I don't know. You know when there are paths in your life where you have to make a decision that is going to drastically change your life trajectory? I did not think when we sent those messages to each other on Instagram that that was going to be one of those life-changing moments.
We followed Panimation, and they have the same goals as we do; trying to empower women and non-binary people within the industry. To showcase their skills. I think we realized there was nothing like that in Atlanta.
Linda McNeil:
We also just wanted there to be a space for us to experiment outside of work. To do animation and motion graphics more for fun. So when we first started just doing all of the OK Motion Club stuff, we were bouncing ideas off of each other, reaching out to illustrators that were local for collaboration. It really was just for fun.
Amanda Schrembeck:
Yeah. I don't think we realized it was going to turn into what it did. Obviously, I think it was in the back of our minds that it would be awesome if it became something bigger. But deep down, we just wanted it to be a space for us to share work and encourage each other to push ourselves forward. We weren't getting that at our jobs. That's still what it is for us. We want to make sure that we're always enjoying what we do, and that was something neither of us was getting in our nine to five jobs.
Meryn Hayes:
How did you initially set up time and make space to start that while you had nine to five’s and busy lives? Was it hard to get the inertia to really get started? Starting a business and branding yourselves, that's a lot to take on in addition to other work that you're doing and a life that you have.
Amanda Schrembeck:
I feel like it wasn't bad for me starting out. I was so motivated to WANT to work on something else, something that I was passionate about. So, I was excited to come home and make these projects. Also, just seeing the community’s response to them, that's a motivator too. You want to keep it going. But as time went on and it started to become more serious, probably something that we'll talk about at the festival, we realized that it could become a full-time job.
That's when it started to get really unmanageable. It was like, “okay, we got to make a website, we got to finish branding. We have to do all of the unexciting business stuff on the side of setting up an LLC, and a lot of other unknowns.” At that point, it felt like two full-time jobs. But we’re over that hump now.
Meryn Hayes:
Then what about the climate in Atlanta? Y'all said that there wasn't really a studio like this in the area. Is there a big animation, illustration, or general art presence? What's the scene there now? Did you immediately notice there was a space that needed to be filled?
Linda McNeil:
Yeah. There is a meetup in Atlanta called Ease ATL, which was a space for freelancers to get together pre-pandemic. Now it's a Slack channel, but they are about to start having talks again. We're actually doing one with them in September. But the space, there is also a studio called Awesome Inc. that is women run. It's an animation studio, but they do more classic cel frame animation. Work that you would see on Cartoon Network or Adult Swim. There really isn't a space for what we were looking to do, specifically for social content. Like a lot of the Instagram posts that we do, or any of the videos that we've posted. We really gear towards social.
Amanda Schrembeck:
Having worked at agencies, I think we have a pretty good understanding of what a lot of brands are looking for. Quick turn content and eye-catching stuff, which is what we consider as our bread and butter. There will always be a market for that in most cities, but Atlanta is growing as a city as well. It seems like it hasn't been slowing down the past year.
Meryn Hayes:
Yeah, something that we've noticed as well. We're in Raleigh, definitely smaller than Atlanta, not really a traditional place to be, like New York or LA. But, we've noticed which is being propelled further by the pandemic are these mid-market cities. Being a city in the south, it's not like we are traditionally well known for this type of work, it’s really come up in the past few years. Now, clients don't seem to care that you're not in New York or LA, and especially with Zoom, we can communicate anywhere. We can make art anywhere for anyone.
Amanda Schrembeck:
For sure. It's something good for small brands and freelancers that are trying to work with clients in bigger cities. Clients they never would have gotten the opportunity to work with because of where they’re located.
Meryn Hayes:
And it's contributing to the city itself, too. You're supporting the artists and the freelancers that are there while helping to propel the art and community further.
So it was a conscious decision when you started the studio to focus on short-form social content, is that right?
Amanda Schrembeck:
I don't know if we specifically laid it out as, “this is what we're only going to do.” It's just, I don't want to say easier, because we do really intentionally think about the short-form content as much as we do long-form. But it's kind of nice to have smaller goals of, "I'm just going to work on this 15-second animation," then we can move onto another project. You have so many ideas, it's nice to not be tied up for a month working on a single long-form project. That's why I prefer it. We also are working on longer-form stuff that taps into a different area of your creativity and things that we want to do. There is a need for both, and we enjoy both, but we tend to do short form the most.
Linda McNeil:
Yeah, I do feel there is more area for creativity with short-form content. Especially because it's a bit more...the timelines aren't that great, so you do have to be creative with how you approach everything. You can't think of it as, "okay, I have these five weeks to work on this Instagram post." It's like, no, you have a week. What can you do in a week? It's like a shotgun challenge, which is really fun sometimes.
Meryn Hayes:
You're totally right, we work on all kinds of stuff, long and short-form. But some of the projects, no matter how long they are, clients will drag their feet. Sometimes it will take months. So the idea of timeboxing for your sanity is great.
Amanda Schrembeck:
It's a nice check box sometimes, but I do agree with what Linda said about creativity. We like to experiment a lot with new methods, or textures, whatever it is. It's so easy to do that with a short-form animation. We find that even doing weird stuff like that on our Instagram feed attracts clients. They'll message us and be like, "Oh, I saw this post that you did." Usually, it’s just a random, one-off idea that we had. We're able to get work from it because people are liking the things that we're messing around with. It can pay off to experiment with short projects.
Meryn Hayes:
I was going to ask y'all how you found your initial client base when getting started. Were there referrals? Or were people randomly dming you like that?
Linda McNeil:
We both had clients that we brought into the business. Once we did announce, we got a lot of responses, which is great. It's better than launching, and everyone is like, "great job," and you don't get it from anybody.
Amanda Schrembeck:
Definitely a lot of referrals from friends at past jobs as well. Most people know that networking and staying in touch with contacts go a long, long way. We still have the potential to work with the companies that both of us worked at as well. We still have good relationships there. I think we're just kind of navigating through all of the referrals and people who have recently contacted us. At some point, we'll probably start making a list of dream brands that we want to work with and figure out how we can get in contact with them.
Meryn Hayes:
That was another question I had. Is there a...maybe it's not a dream brand, but a dream project type or style? Is there something that y'all are really hoping to work on?
Linda McNeil:
I did some work for Vans. That was kind of a dream client scenario. They were awesome to work with. Another dream would be to work with any outdoor brand, like Patagonia or REI. Just because there is so much you can do with that.
Amanda Schrembeck:
Yeah, we keep throwing out that we really want to do a music video. But then we also realize that could be a four or five-minute-long video. I think we just really like the idea of animating to music, also I feel like most music videos are such an open playground for creativity. Bands let you interpret the music how you want. So I think that's an area that we would like to explore at some point. It just has to be the right fit, and of course, the right budget, because that's unfortunately the hardest part with a lot of musicians. They usually don't have a big budget for a project like that.
Meryn Hayes:
That's awesome. We're just starting to work with a client, they’re a corporate client in tech, and we're doing a narrative piece that turns into a music video. So it's funny that you mention that. Whenever we're done with it, depending on how it turns out, I'll share it with y'all.
Amanda Schrembeck:
Okay!
But yeah, it was one of those things that our team had been talking about. They always wanted to do a music video. It was just a weird opportunity that a corporate client would present us with this option. Right now, it's really stressful because we're trying to figure out how to shoot it, and we don't have any time. Given, we're also throwing a festival in whatever it is...six weeks? Eight weeks? But that's awesome.
Like you said, going back to combining passions of print or traditional design, incorporating music as a part of the work is so important and influential as well. Earlier when you were talking about new styles or trying new inspiration for something, where do y'all feel like you typically get your inspiration or references from?
Amanda Schrembeck:
Probably like most people, social media, or just hanging out with friends. Honestly, I personally like to surround myself with other talented people. Our friend group is so incredible. They tend to inspire me the most. You see them do something, and you're like, "oh, I would love to collaborate with them, or talk with them about something." It's important to not always pull from social media. Get some real-life experiences as well.
Meryn Hayes:
Then what about the name? Where did the name come from?
Amanda Schrembeck:
I was thinking this might be kind of funny to show at the conference, but I'm pretty certain that I was in Augusta. It was Christmas. Linda and I had already been talking about forming this group, but we didn't have a name for it. I was talking to my husband and I said, "what do you think about the name OK Motion Club?" It's like a collective, which is what we were going for. We were thinking that maybe we could add more members to it at some point. We're also not denying that we're not the most incredible animators yet. We still have room to grow. Don’t get me wrong, we think we're good, but there are also other amazingly talented people out there. He was like, "yeah, I think it's cool." I texted it to Linda and she had a very similar response.
Linda McNeil:
Yeah. Our original bio said something along the lines of, "we're pretty okay at animation." Which is like...
Amanda Schrembeck:
...I think underselling ourselves a bit. But we're just being sarcastic.
Linda McNeil:
Yeah. It's also interesting that the name dives into Imposter Syndrome and how people do describe their work. Most people don't say, "yeah, this was the coolest, I'm the best at what I do." Everyone is really humble when they talk about their work, which I think women do a lot, too. Just underselling our worth.
Amanda Schrembeck:
I feel like the name alone does create a little buzz. We have heard people talk about us without knowing who we are. Just really recognizing the brand name now, which is crazy. It's weird for it to be spreading like that. So I think all of that was intentionality around the name, and even the branding itself; the little okay smiley, things like that that we want to become recognizable. At least in Atlanta, but obviously hoping that it spreads further.
Meryn Hayes:
Yeah, that's great. That was one of the things that our team had talked about. The vibe of the studio is so great. And the branding. What was that process like? Did it come naturally as y'all were starting out?
Amanda Schrembeck:
Yeah. I took a crack at the branding because I have a background as a designer. So I sent stuff to Linda, and if she liked it we rolled with it. We still want it to be collaborative though. I want her to say if she has preferences about things. But at first, we went with more of a black letter typeface. We’re both really into skate culture, that's probably another dream project focus. Skate videos or something like that. But we moved away from that. I think pink is just an iconic, feminine color. But at the same time, we still wanted it to come across as not just two typical women. We’re both sarcastic, and kind of edgy, I guess? That sounds weird to say. Tomboy-ish? Something in that vein?
Linda McNeil:
We're not going to call each other girl boss or anything like that.
Amanda Schrembeck:
We wanted it to be a mix of both of those things. More gender-neutral, I guess.
Meryn Hayes:
Yeah, that's funny. Just having just met y'all, the aesthetic and vibe of the website and your branding do match very well.
Amanda Schrembeck:
Thanks.
Meryn Hayes:
We started talking about Imposter Syndrome. Getting into that a little bit more, how have y'all handled that? Sometimes I think to myself, "why does anyone give a shit about what I think?" How have y'all handled that in the past?
Linda McNeil:
Sometimes saying what you are thinking out loud helps. A lot of times, honestly, in our Slack channel, there is a lot of back and forth of me telling Amanda, "I don't know, I think this sucks, I don't think they're going to like this." She's just like, "I think this is awesome." Just vocalizing what your Imposter Syndrome brain is trying to tell you helps. Even when we were starting this, there was a lot of fear that led to the Imposter Syndrome. It's crazy that after 10 years of experience, I'm still like, "I don't know what I'm doing."
Amanda Schrembeck:
Because both of us left jobs that we were at for five years, you really feel like you can navigate that environment with your eyes closed. But then you think, "what if I leave here and suddenly I don't know how to work with other people in the industry? Maybe I only knew that environment really well.” I think that motivates me to want to try harder. To make sure I can prove myself wrong. To prove to these people that I can deliver on something.
The first freelance job I did after quitting my agency job sent me a message after it was done. They said something like, "oh, you've been so wonderful to work with. You've been awesome, and on top of it." Just a message like that is super reassuring that you did a good job, and it makes you want to keep going. Also, another one of the freelancers who, I think he thought I worked there, said, "you seem like you're the only one who knows what you're doing." That made me feel good.
Meryn Hayes:
Getting that feedback or validation is great.
Amanda Schrembeck:
That's really what it is. It’s just getting validation. It’s crazy that you can live in your own little bubble for a while, and be like, "do I actually know what I'm doing? Or am I good at this?" You are. You probably are.
Meryn Hayes:
Yeah. Linda, what you were saying. Saying the imposter feeling out loud. I don't think I've ever felt more like an imposter than when I became a mother. I think it's because nobody ever talked about how hard it was, right? So if you don't see that, you feel like it's just you. That you're the only person going through that hard time. So one of my goals as a working mother has been to talk about it so that when other people experience it, they don't feel the same isolation.
It's the same thing. If you talk about it, someone might see you're running this great studio, and you still question whether you're good enough, or if a client is going to like your work. Having other people see that vulnerability helps them, in turn, to be more able to handle their own Imposter Syndrome.
Linda McNeil:
Totally. I think the thing that leads to the imposter syndrome is your doubt and fear of the unknown. Of not knowing what the reaction will be. Just accepting that any reaction is fine and that you'll get through it. There are so many business owners that I've talked to since we've started this that have gone through the worst. They've told us, "Once you go through the worst, you realize it's not that bad."
Meryn Hayes:
The other thing is, at some point, you realize that nobody knows what they're doing. It looks like they do, that also makes you feel like we're all just struggling together.
Linda McNeil:
Yeah, totally.
Meryn Hayes:
What about advice? This one was from one of our interns, she is graduating from SCAD next year. What would be a piece of advice you would give to young, female designers?
Amanda Schrembeck:
Are they an animator or designer? I mean, I guess it doesn't...
Meryn Hayes:
...She's a designer now. She does dabble in animation though and wants to get more into it.
Amanda Schrembeck:
What I learned the most was that unless you have a ton of amazing connections in the world with people that you've met in school, nobody is going to hand you a job. You have to work your ass off. I made a lot of fake projects to fill my portfolio with to show people I knew what I was doing. I knew that I knew what I was doing, but companies didn't. They needed something to go off of. It's true for animators too. Even if your reel looks a little slim, ask yourself, “what's missing? Do I have an explainer-type video? Do I have social content?”Just make up fake stuff. I think that almost goes further because it shows that you have the drive and motivation to want to do something on your own. You're not waiting for a project to fall in your lap.
The beginning is tough. You're trying to fill in all these gaps, it can be daunting and a lot all at once. Make a website, and market yourself, which feels kind of gross. You want people to recognize that you're good. Unfortunately, you have to put yourself out there, and really just make yourself look the way you want for companies. You also have to make sure that you're changing your stuff for different companies so that the company you're applying for feels like you genuinely are only looking at them. It's another unfortunate step that you have to take, but it goes a long way.
Meryn Hayes:
That's great. What about you, Linda?
Linda McNeil:
I agree with what Amanda was saying; putting out work that you want to do, making sure that your portfolio reflects the work that you want to be working on. There have been a few times where I've talked to recent grads that only have their school projects in their portfolio or on their site. It would include something that they're not super excited about. Don't put something on your site if you don't want to work on it. If you're not into UI animation, don't put it on your site. Also, take the first few years out of college to absorb as much as you can. You don't know what direction you're really going into until you start learning. I originally thought I wanted to go into packaging design when I graduated college.
Meryn Hayes:
That's something we talk with a lot of different people about on Clubhouse, or in doing these interviews. Something that’s so important that I've noticed when speaking to others in the industry is that when you get out of school, you have this idea of what you want to do. But in those early days, it's almost more important to figure out what you don't want to do. Very few people's paths are straight. A lot wind their way to where they are today.
I went to school for photography and realized I didn't want to move to New York City to become a freelance photographer like all my classmates. I had to completely pivot. Sometimes people think they're failures, or maybe they took a job and didn't like it. It's not a failure. It's just you pivoting your path in a different direction to help find what you want to do. That’s something that’s not talked about enough. It's not necessarily a failure, it’s finding your way to something you do want to do.
Amanda Schrembeck:
Yeah, I worked a couple of jobs right out of school that weren’t even related to the art industry. I was depressed for a while because I felt like I had just graduated and I was suddenly going to be in the career that I wanted to be in. But I used that as a motivator. “I have to get out of this. I have to do something because clearly just having a degree and a couple of school projects is not enough to get attention.” So it's the process of realizing, “okay, I need to change something.”
Meryn Hayes:
Yeah, that’s great.
One thing one of our illustrators noticed on y'all's website was you mentioned posting talks and workshops through initiatives like Ladies Wine and Design. Can y'all talk more about that?
Amanda Schrembeck:
We've actually done a few talks. I think the first one we did was with MODA.
Linda McNeil:
Yeah.
Amanda Schrembeck:
Or was there one before that? There may have been one before that, but Ladies Wine and Design is a chapter in Atlanta. There are multiple ones. A friend reached out for us to host a workshop for that. It ended up being over Zoom, because it was during the pandemic. She told us that it was the most people that had joined one of the talks. It was nice to be able to teach someone something, and also knowing that we were empowering other women and people within the industry.
We want to keep doing talks like that, and workshops, but it's hard to find time now for stuff like that when we're also trying to generate an income. People will still message us on Instagram even just for referrals of where we learned things. So if there’s any way we can share information of how we got started, those are amazing places to do it.
Meryn Hayes:
Do y'all feel like the questions that people have, or the topics that y'all hear about, have some common themes? Are people more interested in literally the work that y'all are doing, and workshopping how you make something? Or maybe how to start a studio? The business side? Or more of a smattering…?
Amanda Schrembeck:
All of it.
Meryn Hayes:
All of it?
Amanda Schrembeck:
Yeah.
Linda McNeil:
It’s definitely a mix of people in the classes. There are people who are like, "I've literally never touched animation ever. How does this even work?" So I think people are just curious about how we start on something. It's a difficult thing to try and put together because, in our heads, we've been doing this for so long. So it's asking ourselves how we distill it down for someone who has never even opened an animation program before. That can be fun to try and think about how to make it easy for someone to digest. Then we also get questions about who we are, and why we got started. Some might be considering going off on their own someday. It's a little bit of everything.
Meryn Hayes:
On that note, what type of advice would you have to other women or non-binary folks who are either taking the leap to go freelance or taking the leap to start a studio in such a straight, white, male-dominated field? Any advice on something that y'all have learned, or advice to other people as they are moving in that direction?
Linda McNeil:
The best advice is to reach out to people. Even if it's somebody that you think is only interested in illustration, or even a photographer, someone you can get creative jam time with. Honestly, when Amanda and I first met up, I wasn't even really aware she was animating. You learn so much from somebody that is also thinking the same creative thoughts you are. Having that space and awareness too, where it's outside of the white male perspective...
Amanda Schrembeck:
I would probably just say just put yourself out there. I have friends that, on Instagram, they're like, "Well, I make art. But I don't really share it." If you're serious about it, and you want people to take it seriously, you should make a separate account for it. That way you know when people follow you there or engage with you, the art is what they're there for. That was another big driver for us to start OK Motion Club. I felt like when I posted art, people didn't care about it.
Amanda Schrembeck:
I just wanted people to take it seriously. To realize that this was a real thing that I was doing. I found that it helped us a lot to separate the two. Putting yourself out there can be scary, but it can also give you validation of if what you're doing is the right thing to do.
Meryn Hayes:
Then what about advice or, I guess it's less advice, and more like what y'all's wishes would be. We've made a lot of headway in being more inclusive as an industry, it is still dominantly male, but we're making strides, especially with groups like Panimation. How do we continue that? How do we work to be more inclusive moving forward?
Amanda Schrembeck:
It sucks that we have to create these communities to showcase people's work that isn't white male. But yeah, people are having to do that to be able to shine a light on other individuals. It's on more popular platforms that white, cis, male-type work is typically being showcased. Making sure that it's a more equal mix, doing the research, and looking into people.
Panimation even had to do that as well. They weren't featuring People of Color for a really long time. It's easy to be like, "Well, there aren’t as many people online, or we can't find them." Well, look harder, or ask people, I don't know, put out a call for artists. Ask them to submit to you. I think there are other ways around it. You can't make an excuse for it.
Linda McNeil:
Yeah. There are ways to justify that kind of thinking, too, where it's like, "Well, we put it on Motionographer. No women or People of Color applied." That's not doing the work of just putting it all out there.
Amanda Schrembeck:
Are they able to find your call out?
Linda McNeil:
Really thinking along the lines of your work gets better when it's more diverse. All work gets better if it's coming from multiple viewpoints and multiple backgrounds. So, it's on all studios. Eventually, Amanda and I will have to hire, and we're aware we're two white women. So when we are hiring, we have to consider how we diversify that. I do want to mention, even when we were starting our website, we did kind of struggle with putting out us as a female animation studio, putting the name female in there. We were like, "Well, we don't really want to have to be known as an all female…”
Linda McNeil:
We don't want to identify, because, in a perfect world, we'd just be an animation studio. But we are different from most studios because we are two women.
Amanda Schrembeck:
It makes you feel a little icky. I mean, I'm proud of it. I'm definitely incredibly proud of us, but I also want people to come to us because they know we're talented and we're good at what we do. Not because they're like, "Oh, did you hear about the two women with an animation studio?" It's a strange thing to navigate. As long as we stay true to who we are, and make sure that the type of people we're working with genuinely recognize our talents, then it's someone that we'll want to start a relationship with.
Meryn Hayes:
That's really interesting. I totally get that. We shouldn't have to define ourselves. It shouldn't be a big deal, but it is because there aren't any female-owned and operated studios. My hope would be in the next few years that that's not what you're defined by, it's just the work that defines you.
Linda McNeil:
I will say the response hasn't been like, "Wow, look at these girls doing cool stuff." It's really like, "Look at this awesome studio." It's still a battle, but I do see that there has been change. There aren’t a lot of people reaching out like, "what's up, ladies?"
Meryn Hayes:
Just delete that email if you ever get it.
Let's see. What about anything, and maybe this is a boring business question, but has anything surprised you on the business end of starting the studio? Mack and Cory, dash’s co-founders, talk a lot about how they were animators, they weren't business owners. How did y'all navigate early on? Did you have help?.
Amanda Schrembeck:
We've had all of the help. But I also feel like the advice goes in one ear and out the other sometimes because it’s so much. My husband has started a couple of businesses, so he's definitely gone through it a few times. He tells me, he could literally sit me down and explain everything, and I'm just like, “I know that we need to know it, but I don't want to know it. It's not the fun part. I just want to be making things.” But it's fine, it definitely helps to have friends that have gone through it before or previous coworkers. You can pick their brain, which is incredibly helpful. But it's also tough. They don't really make it easy for you to try and figure out how to do it. Nobody can tell you how to do it the right way.
Linda McNeil:
Yeah. It's not how my brain usually works. The times we've met up to go over business stuff, I feel like I'd leave Amanda's house exhausted, because I’m just like, "Oh my god, why do I feel like I'm falling asleep?" We'd be talking for two hours about setting up the business. It's made me appreciate accountants and producers much more.
Amanda Schrembeck:
The most reassuring thing is when they say, "you can change this later on”, or, “you can figure this out later.” The most important thing is obviously bringing money into the business so sometimes we’ll circle back. We have quarterly calls with our tax guy now, where we're just like, "Please tell us that we're not..."
Linda McNeil:
“...That we're not going to get arrested.”
Amanda Schrembeck:
Yeah, getting arrested, or being criminals.
Meryn Hayes:
That's something that we have talked a lot about. You've got to think that during art school or programs that teach art, at some point, you're going to be doing something that you might need a little bit of that business background, right? If you're going freelance or starting a studio, you'll need to know that side. That’s just something that I think everyone who starts within this industry is just like, "Oh, shit, I don't know what I'm doing."
Amanda Schrembeck:
They really should make a business class specifically for artists.
Meryn Hayes:
You would think. We can make a lot of money if we went in on that because it is a huge need. But, to y'all's point, the community, and asking for help, everyone has had to figure it out. It's all about sharing the experience of, "Here is our scope. This might work for you." That common knowledge is awesome.
Cool. Well, I had one more question. Looking ahead, is there a goal that OK Motion Club is going to have X number of people, or going to be in a different city? Have y'all had any goals when you had started initially? Or is it more like, "We're just going to do this and see what happens?"
Amanda Schrembeck:
People keep asking us that, and I think we're just trying to figure out how to run this group with the two of us. We both are maybe scared, the bigger you get, the harder it is to control or make sure it has our seal of approval on everything.
Linda McNeil:
Yeah, we don't want to lose any of the integrity or the vibe of the company.
Amanda Schrembeck:
I don't know. It's our baby. How do you just give that away to other people? If we were to grow, I think it is inevitable at some point for us to eventually hire a few people. But I personally don't have a desire for it to become a massive company. At that point, it would completely change the culture from what we would want.
Linda McNeil:
Our goal right now is to have a studio space. Eventually, we would like to host events or little art shows. Just to have more of a space for people to meet up.
Amanda Schrembeck:
Yeah.
Meryn Hayes:
That's great.
Amanda Schrembeck:
It is cool, though, to be able to bring on other people that have similar backgrounds to us. People that fell into animation, and it became a passion for them. To be able to offer someone an awesome career like that, it’s an amazing thought. I hope that someday we can offer that to a few people, but it will be a very long, thought-out decision. It won't be easily made.
Meryn Hayes:
That stuff, for the most part, doesn't happen overnight. Well, speaking of meeting up, I am so excited to meet y'all in September and to hear more of your story and thoughts. Thanks for chatting with me today. This has been great. We'll talk soon.
Amanda Schrembeck and Linda McNeil:
Yeah, you too!
Takeover Tuesday with Marcelo Meijome
Q&A with Marcelo Meijome, a 3D and Motion Artist currently working at Varjo in Helsinki as a Senior Visual Designer.
Q&A with Marcelo Meijome
Read time: 5min
Madison Caprara:
Hi, Marcelo! I’m excited to get to know you a little better. Could you give us a brief introduction to yourself and your work? How would you describe your style for the readers?
Marcelo Meijome:
Hello Madison! I’m a Visual and Motion Designer, currently based in Helsinki, Finland. Actually, soon to be based in Milan, Italy. I was born in the U.S. to an American mother and an Argentine father. Growing up, we moved around a lot, back and forth between the U.S. and Argentina. I guess that carried over as an adult and I find myself moving around with my wife every couple of years it seems!
My work and style have evolved quite a bit over time I think, and I try to experiment with everything from super-stylized work to realistic 3D art. One constant though has been the focus on motion and animation in my work. These days, I find myself making short animations with inanimate objects, such as chairs, and giving them some personality and life. There is something really satisfying about creating a clean, seamless looping animation.
Madison Caprara:
A bit of a nomad I see! Well, let’s get started. Who or what nurtured your initial creative spark? Did you have any early mentors?
Marcelo Meijome:
I would say my parents played a big part in nurturing my creative spark. They always encouraged me to draw growing up, they let me play a lot of video games, and we would watch a lot of animated movies together. It’s because of these things that I think I knew I wanted to somehow do something related to art and design.
An early mentor for me would be my college professor, Dan Baldwin. He had gotten his Master’s degree at SCAD and has so much great experience when it comes to design and illustration. He really helped to make my work better and to also do a lot of projects outside of the classroom which better prepared me for the agency/studio world after graduating.
Madison Caprara:
It’s always great when you have that initial support from your family. I imagine it makes it easier to go after the career you want. What has been your career path leading up to the present?
Marcelo Meijome:
Originally, I started in the Fine Arts program at Indiana University, but after a year I transferred to IUPUI in Indianapolis to pursue a program more focused on design and computer graphics. After graduating, I felt like I wanted to learn more about animation specifically, so I enrolled in Animation Mentor. While doing these online animation courses, I started working at a local Indianapolis creative agency called Vision Three. This is where I started to really develop a lot of my 3D and motion design skills. Over time, the work there transitioned to be heavily based on real-time interactive applications and virtual reality projects. That’s what led me to being contacted by Varjo in Helsinki to help design for their VR and Mixed Reality headsets. Besides the full-time work, I’ve also taken on a variety of freelance projects on the side when some fun or interesting opportunities pop up.
Madison Caprara:
So, what is it you exactly do for Varjo? Break it down for us!
Marcelo Meijome:
My role at Varjo has been that of a Senior Visual Designer. In practice, that means I help out with a wide range of design challenges and tasks, a bit of everything from UI design, to illustration, to virtual environment creation in Unreal, to motion design for interactive elements, to even functionality prototyping. This role has really given me a chance to improve on some of my core design and motion skills, but also learning and exploring more technical aspects like coding to make early-stage design prototypes. One of the challenges with designing for virtual or mixed reality is that there are no tools like Adobe Xd or Figma just yet to quickly prototype things, so there is a high learning curve for designers to learn something like Unity or Unreal to be able to create and validate their designs in VR. Hopefully, this barrier improves, but at least there are already some concepting tools in VR like Oculus Quill, Microsoft Maquette, and Gravity Sketch that can help with part of the process.
Madison Caprara:
Who has been one of your favorite clients to work with? This can include one you’ve linked up with during your time at Varjo, or even during personal work!
Marcelo Meijome:
I really enjoyed working on a project for Morton Salt. It was for a big interactive video wall at their HQ office in Chicago that was run on three Microsoft Kinect sensors doing full-body tracking. This combined a good amount of UI motion design work, but also creating motion and design for when the application was not in use, so when people would walk by the screens we could create interesting transitions and motion design that would follow the user around. Morton Salt surprisingly gave us pretty free reign when it came to some of this as long as we stayed on the brand colors, so I think we were able to come up with something really cool in the end. This is something I’d like to experiment with some more in something like a museum setting.
Madison Caprara:
That sounds absolutely wild! I didn’t know they were based in Chicago.
As a self-labeled “generalist,” what are your thoughts on the generalist vs specialist debate?
Marcelo Meijome:
I think there is definitely room for both, and they each have their own benefits. From my experience, it helps to try and specialize in a few related things. For example, a lot of motion design positions now require 3d experience. You don’t need to be an expert in the whole 3d software package, but it does require knowledge of many areas like animation, lighting, and rendering. It’s always good to keep an open mind and continually be learning new things, you never know when it might come in handy. This is especially true in smaller studios where you don’t have huge teams with lots of specialists.
Madison Caprara:
Sound like your preference definitely leans towards being a jack of all trades.
In your opinion, what are some things that the art and design world is too focused on, and on the flip side, what are we not focused on enough?
Marcelo Meijome:
It feels like there’s a big focus these days on social media when it comes to art and design. Don’t get me wrong, there are definitely benefits to this, easier to get exposure, share work, get your art seen by a huge amount of people. At the same time, this makes it feel like there’s a constant pressure as an artist that you need to share your work online and promote yourself which can be super draining and leave you burnt out. Like with anything else, it’s about balance and using the tool for your benefit but not letting it control what you do or what kind of work you make.
On the flip side, I would say traditional design and art skills have lost some focus. Everything needs to be more instant these days, so people expect to learn some software quickly and then the great work will follow automatically. I think the understanding of design principles, shapes, color, form, etc are way more important in the end, and learning the software or tool is more secondary to that.
Madison Caprara:
You’re right, social media has its dark side, but it can also be crazy inspiring. I love the connections you can make with people and places all across the world. Where do you go for inspiration when the creative rut hits?
Marcelo Meijome:
The usual social channels of Twitter, Instagram, Dribbble, Behance, and Motionographer can be a good way to find inspiration and spark new ideas, lots of great work to be discovered. Besides that, I find a lot of inspiration from just going out and doing things, whether it’s taking a walk, going to a museum, or traveling, you’re bound to see inspiring things in architecture and nature. I usually get a new idea for a personal project when I’m doing something completely random!
Madison Caprara:
Speaking of random, what’s a skill you never anticipated needing within your career but have found you can’t work without?
Marcelo Meijome:
Organization skills have become crucial for me, and this applies to pretty much all areas of my work. In school, I thought I could just make cool things and then the final deliverable was all I needed, but I quickly realized how important it was to stay organized once I started working professionally; the organization of my files, being able to find things I need quickly, and archiving work that’s been done. Keeping my working files clean and tidy, naming all my layers, grouping things accordingly, color coding things. These are all especially important when working on projects with other artists. I try to hand off projects and assets in the way I would like to get them from others. The worst thing is getting a messy project or file that has things scattered all over.
Madison Caprara:
For curiosity’s sake, do you have any off-the-wall side hustles or hidden talents?
Marcelo Meijome:
I don’t really have any side hustles or hidden talents. I like to play soccer but haven’t found a way to get paid for that yet! I like to learn about history and lots of different topics, so maybe I know a lot of random facts or bits of info that occasionally come in handy!
Madison Caprara:
Is there anything special we can look forward to seeing from you?
Marcelo Meijome:
My dad passed away suddenly back in June this year, so I’ve taken a bit of a break from working on much personal stuff since that happened. I’ve been thinking and reflecting a lot about my dad during that time, what he meant to me and my family and our connection to Argentina. Hopefully, soon, I would like to create something as a tribute for him. He always supported me no matter what I wanted to do, and really pushed me to continue working on my art during the times that I wanted to quit and study something else. Besides this, I want to get back to making more weekly art posts and collaborate on projects with my wife where she will create music tracks and I’ll make an animation to go along with them.
Madison Caprara:
Oh man, Marcelo. I’m truly sorry to hear about your father’s passing. My condolences to you and your family. If you plan on sharing your memorial project with the public, I’d love to see it.
We’re reaching the end of our time. Do you have any closing advice or maybe a statement you would like to share?
Marcelo Meijome:
Try to set aside some time for personal projects when possible. I know it’s not always easy to find the time or motivation to do these, I struggled for a long time with this too, starting lots of things but never finishing them. Start with small and short goals and try not to focus too much on making things perfect. Experiment with different styles and techniques! Almost all the freelance work I’ve ever gotten came as a result of someone seeing some of my more fun personal work. Just be careful to maintain a good balance with your personal life as well, it’s also ok to take breaks and not always feel like you have to be working.
Interview with Dash Bash Speaker, Sekani Solomon
We sat down with Dash Bash speaker, Sekani Solomon to speak on the pressures of being an international student, the importance of scoring internship opportunities, and the difficulties of securing a visa in the U.S.
Sekani is an award-winning Motion Design Lead and Creative Director at Cash App.
Q&A with Sekani Solomon
Read time: 20 min
Sekani Solomon:
Let’s do it.
Mack Garrison:
Let's do it!
All right. I'm joined now by Sekani Solomon. Sekani's an award-winning Motion Design Lead and Creative Director based in New York City, hailing from the twin-island Republic of Trinidad and Tobago. Sekani's diverse skill set in design, animation, and compositing allow him to work at any stage of the production pipeline with a high level of proficiency. He currently leads motion design at Cash App. Welcome to the conversation, Sekani. It's so great to meet you finally.
Sekani Solomon:
Thanks for having me, Mack!
Mack Garrison:
I would be lying if I said I wasn't thrilled and excited to be having you part of the Dash Bash this September. We have such a great lineup, and I'm looking forward to it, particularly after a year of so much isolation. To be able to get the motion crew back together to all hang out again, it's going to be a blast.
Sekani Solomon:
Oh my God. I know. Just seeing people in person in the same building is going to be wild, much less a bunch of motion designers, so I'm pretty excited.
Mack Garrison:
Exactly, exactly.
To start, I'd love to know how you found your way into motion design initially. This is such a melting pot of people with different backgrounds. We have graphic designers, illustrators, coders, and all find their way into motion design. How did you find your way into this career path?
Sekani Solomon:
Like a lot of people, almost by accident. A process of discovery. When I was younger, I used to do a lot of creative things. I made toys using just cardboard and tape. I always wanted to make the stuff I saw on TV. When I was around 14ish, I discovered Photoshop. That was my first gateway to making things digitally because again, the aim was always to make stuff that I saw on TV. This was 2004, they had zero to little resources to create this stuff.
Sekani Solomon:
Eventually, I pivoted and wanted to become a software engineer. Throughout my entire time in high school, I didn't take any art classes.
I was just doing the sciences. In 2008, one of my teachers was working on the high school's website, and I was like, "Well, I did some Photoshop back in the day. Maybe I could help." When I got back online, the learning resources were more...you just had a lot more options. From there, it was a quick process of discovery. That's how I discovered the industry. Photoshop first, AfterEffects, then Cinema, finally going into 3D. It's like this sandbox. You can create anything. That opened my mind up to wanting to create.
Sekani Solomon:
From there, I didn't even know I was doing motion design. I just wanted to make cool stuff. When it was time for college applications, I was still going to apply to be a software engineer.
Mack Garrison:
Oh, wow.
Sekani Solomon:
Then it went quickly from software engineer to graphic designer, then fully graphic design because no one's saying, "Hey, you could have a career in the arts." I didn't know a single person that was doing it professionally.
Mack Garrison:
Right. Everyone who I knew who was doing art professionally was into the fine arts. I didn't know there was a similar purpose to what we were doing, which was so interesting.
Sekani Solomon:
Exactly! Especially in Tobago. It's a small island of 50,000. Very few people do this type of stuff, but I knew I was super passionate about it. I figured, "Well if I'm doing this in my free time, I might as well pursue it and see where it goes."
“…the advantage of an internship, especially when you're in school, is it allows you to fail in a safe environment.”
Mack Garrison:
That's so great. I know you said there weren’t a ton of people doing it in Tobago, but was there any community? Were you able to find some other folks there who were dabbling in motion design?
Sekani Solomon:
Yeah, there were a lot of hobbyists and a few guys who were doing it professionally. I soaked in as much knowledge from them as I could, and they helped to steer me in the right direction. But I always wanted to keep pushing it, and pushing it, and pushing it, which led me to where I am today.
Mack Garrison:
I know you're up in New York City now. I imagine there was a decision made at some point, where you were like, "Wow, okay. If I want to push into motion design, I need to move on from Tobago and maybe go to the States or something like that." When was that moment? Maybe after school?
Sekani Solomon:
It happened when I was around 19. Because we're in the British school system, you can either do five years in high school or seven years within advanced courses. I did seven years in high school, so when I graduated, I was 19 and was trying to figure out my life.
Mack Garrison:
Like every 19-year-old, right?
Sekani Solomon:
Yeah! There's no prescribed course you need to take. Once I settled on wanting to pursue art, it was just a matter of finding the school. Also, trying to figure out a way to get to the U.S., because I knew that ultimately that was the place I needed to be. Fortunately, I had applied to SCAD and I got a scholarship there. I also got a scholarship from Tobago, and my parents paid the rest of the money. I was very lucky to be able to go to school at the Savannah College of Art and Design.
Sekani Solomon:
Coming from the Caribbean to the U.S., I thought everyone was going to be a beast. However, when I got there, I found out that a lot of people were just 19 or 18 trying to figure out what they wanted to do and hadn’t opened the software yet. So I was a little more advanced than a lot of my classmates. I was also older when I started. In my freshman year, I was 20 whereas most people are 18. Even so, the mission was always to get a job before graduating, because coming to the States is one thing, and staying in the States...
Mack Garrison:
...Staying in the States is another, right. Got to get that visa.
“…if you don't land that job in the first year, you're going home.”
Sekani Solomon:
Exactly. I did four internships while I was at SCAD. I worked at Loyalkaspar, which is a broadcast studio based in New York, Gentleman Scholar, The Mill, and Imaginary Forces, where I ended up taking a staff position there.
Mack Garrison:
Awesome. That's so great. I think there's something to be said when you're coming into an education system with a little bit of an older perspective. I was the same way. I didn't get into design until I was about 20 years old as well, maybe even 21 at the time honestly. So when I did get in, I ended up at the College of Design at NC State University. It was the same deal.
While there were a lot of students around me who were still figuring their stuff out, maybe going out and partying, my focus was definitely on school. I was like, "I got all the ‘figuring things out’ done earlier. This is what I want to do." I think that gives you an edge as far as staying driven and capturing some of the available internships.
Sekani Solomon:
A lot of the money for college is put into the opportunities. They bridge that gap between you and the studios. You’ll have these studios coming directly to the school for career day and all of that. All you have to do is present the best work to get the internships, so it was really up to me from that perspective. I just needed to perform well. I wanted to maximize that opportunity and get as much experience as I could because the advantage of an internship, especially when you're in school, is it allows you to fail in a safe environment. Even if you're a junior designer, once you've stepped into that professional realm, there are more stakes versus as an intern. Getting to learn in that environment was a good experience.
Mack Garrison:
I think you also had a certain level of pressure sitting on you. You may have a lot of these American kids who, if it doesn't work out, will figure something else out. But for you, you were looking at this as your sole path and career. You knew you wanted to be here, and you needed to get connected with jobs to get a visa. So there was this extra pressure to make sure that you were on top of your game at every point of the way. Always sticking out, securing that next job, things like that. That had to be stressful, I would imagine, and all while you're in school.
Sekani Solomon:
Yeah, I mean it's like if you don't land that job in that first year, you're going home.
Mack Garrison:
Oh, man. That's so crazy.
Sekani Solomon:
This is how wild it is. Not only do you have to get a job, but you also have to get a job that's willing to sponsor your visa. The usual visa most people get is an H-1B. Because so many people apply for that visa, it's a lottery. Even if you do everything right, the best chance you have is a one in four chance of getting picked in that lottery.
I think I applied for that particular visa twice and didn't get it. What I ended up having to do was get another visa called an O-1 visa, which is a more merit-based visa. They make a case for you to show that you're extraordinary in visual. It's a whole process that’s tricky to navigate. Even if you're doing everything you're supposed to, you could still be unlucky and go home.
Mack Garrison:
How much of that process did the companies you were working for help you with? Or did you have to advocate for yourself and educate on the different ways you could stay?
Sekani Solomon:
For the H-1Bs, I got full support from Imaginary Forces. They took care of everything in terms of the application. For the O-1 visa, I decided to take that cost on myself. Just in case I wanted to leave, I didn't want any strings attached, you know what I mean?
It was fine. They were super supportive in terms of providing the information and all that stuff. You have to get...I think it was seven to ten recommendations from other people in the industry. That's why all of those internships were important. I met a lot of people that could vouch for me. If you're not thinking ahead and planning, it could be difficult.
Mack Garrison:
Interesting. Well, it's a great conversation point because I think the perfect example is me as a studio owner at dash. We're a small crew. We only have like 12 people, compared to Imaginary Forces who have a crew of folks up there. As a result, it's not that we couldn't offer an H-B1 visa, but there's more legwork that goes into it when you're a smaller shop.
Mack Garrison:
You bring up a good point that when you're an international student studying in the States, it almost has to be a prerequisite for every place that you're talking to. To be like, "Could you sponsor an H-B1 visa? Are you open to that? Are you prepared to do that?" Because if that is critical, then you only have what...three or four years of internships before you need to land that full-time gig? So every opportunity you have becomes that more important. That seems like a lot of pressure.
Sekani Solomon:
100%. It's the pressure of making good work and progressing in your craft while staying in the States. Fortunately, it worked out.
Mack Garrison:
It did. It did.
Sekani Solomon:
And now, we're here.
Mack Garrison:
Well, I love the background on it because it's something that I think a lot of folks are familiar with, at least that visas are a thing, but the process of it and understanding the back end is really interesting to know as well.
So, you get in. You're with Imaginary Forces. What's the course of action from there to Cash App? You’re putting out some fantastic work with them. Were you going freelance in between those two? Did you go straight to Cash App? How'd you end up getting to where you are now?
Sekani Solomon:
I enjoyed my time at Imaginary Forces. Definitely learned a ton there and worked on a variety of different projects, from main titles to commercials to stuff on the big screen. There just comes a time when you have to look at the value of what you’re offering. You have to figure out how to extract more value for the time that you're spending because when you're staff, sometimes you’ll see a freelancer come in, do less work, and get paid twice as much. Then you're like, "Uh..?"
Mack Garrison:
You're like, "Wait a minute."
Sekani Solomon:
Exactly. It was time to spread my wings. To work with a couple of other companies to see what's out there, but also to have more control over my salary and the value that I brought. I left Imaginary in 2016 and freelanced for a bit. Pretty much worked with all the studios: BUCK, Psyop, Method, Gentleman Scholar.
“there comes a time when you have to look at the value of what you’re offering. you have to figure out how to extract more value for the time that you're spending...”
Mack Garrison:
Making your rounds.
Sekani Solomon:
Yeah, and in 2018, I think this was shortly after I had released Hidden, I got an email from Apple and ended up doing a couple of months over there in the Bay Area. It was my first real taste of in-house tech, and a completely different universe.
Mack Garrison:
Oh, yeah. Totally new vibe.
Sekani Solomon:
For better or worse in some ways. It was like this ‘coming to light’ moment where you're like, "Oh, wow. There's this whole other line of work where people are working more reasonable hours. People come in from 10:00 to 5:00. They're getting paid more." The only tricky thing with Apple is that the work's a bit more restrained. They have their own established way of doing things. You don't always have the kind of flexibility you might have at some other shops. Then the question was, "There's this whole other way to work, but do I want to sacrifice the work I was doing?"
Mack Garrison:
It's almost like it was a shot at your creativity. You were having a nice work-life balance, I'm sure you were getting paid really well, but then there was this push, of course, that we all have as creative individuals. What can we do differently? Can we try something new? And you were probably getting pushed into some of the same directions over and over again.
Sekani Solomon:
Exactly. The way I was rationalizing it to myself was that I could make a bunch of personal projects because I had more time. Also, having come from New York, I was not a fan of the Bay Area. It was such a contrast, especially in Mountain View, Sunnyvale. It's really chill. That was an adjustment. So I went back to New York after that and ended up working on a job for a tech company through a studio.
Mack Garrison:
Oh, man. That's so funny. You can never get away from tech when you're in the animation industry.
Sekani Solomon:
Right? That project, in particular, was just terrible because the creative changed every day and you had to work long hours. I was also thinking, "Oh, wow. I was just working on the client-side, now I'm back on the vendor side." It was just leveraging where I wanted to be, and it wasn’t there. It had to feel like the right opportunity because it's not just about the money, you also want to make good work.
Luckily enough, I got a cold call on LinkedIn from a recruiter about a position at Cash App. I wasn't even really familiar with the company at that point. I think I responded a week and a half later. I went into the office, met with some people, and I thought it was pretty awesome what they were trying to build. I ended up starting freelance there in late 2018. When I got the position, they were just like, "Yeah, make it weirder. Make it wilder."
Mack Garrison:
You're like, "Whoa. This is a big company telling me to make it weirder and wilder." I love it.
Sekani Solomon:
Yeah, and the thing is because Cash App was a small startup company within a larger company (Square), it felt like a small studio. It was pretty unique. After being there for about a month and a half, I ended up taking a staff position because I was like, "Oh, yeah, this is-"
Mack Garrison:
This is amazing.
Sekani Solomon:
Yeah, this is pretty new. Since then, it’s been about continuously creating really, really good work. Now, we've been scaling quite a bit this year, so...
Mack Garrison:
It just seems like you're always putting out something new and incredibly unique with them. I know, from just another creative perspective, to be working for a company that embraces pushing the boundaries of what's possible...that's just the ideal client. I've talked to other studio owners and creators, and there's always a question: Who would be your dream client, or who is the group that you want to work with? Everyone resoundingly says that it's less about the subject and more about having a good partnership with the clients that you're working with.
I think if someone believes in what you can do and what you can bring to the table; if they trust you, your opinion, and knowledge within the industry, you're inevitably going to have some of the best work that's out there regardless of what industry it lives in. Also, it helps that animation is such a great conduit for explaining complex materials. I think about what Cash App does and some of the things they're trying to get around seem like a perfect match for you to push the boundaries and create cool stuff.
“it should always be rooted in an idea and concept that ties back to the brand. the visuals are just a mechanism you use to tell that story or to deliver that concept…the last thing you want to have are just pretty, arbitrary visuals.”
Sekani Solomon:
Absolutely! You see companies, like Microsoft especially, working closely with studios like Tendril and BUCK to create these insane videos to depict their software. I'm really glad to see the companies at this scale embrace these types of visuals because, as you were saying, it does help to communicate and bring excitement and anticipation to the products that they're making. And that can be wild.
Mack Garrison:
What do you think was the biggest factor in making that happen? Because you're right, I've seen it trending. You see Tendril coming out with it. You see other companies watching what they've done for Microsoft, and folks try to replicate that ambient 3D style. What do you think it was that made that big switch? Is it just companies at this point just trying to be as different from one another as possible and things feeling too similar to one another?
Sekani Solomon:
I think a lot of it has to do with social media and the way we ingest content. People are now used to seeing really artful, different things on their social feeds. If you have that cookie-cutter ad, is it going to appeal? I don't know. Also, you don't have to be as scared to try different things because I think people are more used to seeing visuals that feel different. I just think it required some boldness on the client’s part to approve that “something”.
Mack Garrison:
I think one thing you mentioned, which helps a lot, is that you have a foundation with a client who is open to different things. I'm just curious about your take on this. When you're pitching something that's really out there, even at Cash App, I'm sure there are some projects where you're like, "wow, this idea that I have is super strange," or, "super weird." What are some of the steps you take before you bring that idea to the table? Just for any other designers that might be reading this blog later on, what are some things they should consider before bringing something a little bit more out there to a client to try to win them over on it?
Sekani Solomon:
Well, the first thing for me is that it should always be rooted in an idea and a concept that ties back to the brand. The visuals are just a mechanism you use to tell that story or to deliver that concept. For me, that's the fundamental thing. If the idea isn't clear, then that's when it gets lost because the last thing you want to have are just pretty, arbitrary visuals.
I think here, in particular, I'm a bit lucky because that's part of the brand. If there's not a quirk to it, it might feel a little bit off-brand. The challenge is making something that feels strange while still communicating a message. That's a very fine line. It's easy to go weird, and no one gets it or it’s too literal and it’s kind of meh. It's about trying to find the right balance.
Sekani Solomon:
Also, creating things that still feel fresh and new, especially because we're exposed to way more 3D than I think we have been over the years. People have seen stuff. Things are beginning to feel familiar, so how do you keep projects feeling fresh? How do you explore different aesthetics while still meeting the business goals?
Mack Garrison:
Right. It's like this rubber band. You push creative, but then it's got to come back a little bit because it's too far out there. Then, a business tries to pull it back, and it's constantly slowly pulling on each other's sides and moving the process along. It's good to think about.
You mentioned something a second ago at the end of that, which I thought was interesting too. How do you keep stuff fresh, right? How do you find new inspiration? Do you have avenues that you go down when you're just trying to brainstorm ideas? Is it moving away from video and looking at more print, illustrations, and things like that to bring those concepts in? When you have a new project and you're thinking about how you want to approach it, what are some paths that you do for finding inspiration?
Sekani Solomon:
I look a lot at sculptures, architecture, pottery, that type of stuff. I try to get a balance between looking at motion design references, but also real-world things for form, shape, and texture. Motion design inspiration is really good, of course, but if you’re only looking at motion design references, then you're going to keep creating similar things. It's very challenging to create something that feels fresh. Almost everything has been done already.
It's also about bringing your own voice into it. Your spin on whatever that thing is and trying to find a way to push it forward. To make it a little more unique, because even the stuff that you're referencing, someone did that before. You just took it and made it your own. That's fine too. Nothing needs to be the most original thing, but it needs to be...you could take an idea and tweak it 20%, and it feels entirely new because the context is different. That's one way I like to look at things. If the context and idea are different, then I think that does change it a lot.
Mack Garrison:
That's interesting. I love the idea of talking about looking at more traditional mediums, like sculpture, right? Particularly as we think about 3D, modeling, and creating something unique, you can almost look at some of the traditional principles. Ground something, but then because animation can do whatever you want it to, ask yourself how you can break some of the rules that come along with it. That's really cool.
Mack Garrison:
Let's pivot the conversation a little bit. One thing I wanted to ask you about, just because I know you've been really involved in the scene, is non-fungible tokens, NFTs. I felt like I could not get on Twitter, Instagram, or anything for the longest time without hearing something about NFTs. I know there was a huge spike in popularity. It seemed like everyone was participating. They’re still popular, but felt like there's a little more of a dip than there was a few months ago. What are your thoughts on the NFT industry? Do you think that's something that's going to stick around? Are people still trying to figure it out a little bit?
Sekani Solomon:
Yeah, I think NFTs are definitely here to stay, they’re just moderated from what they were a couple of months ago, which was just absolute lunacy. It was ridiculous.
Mack Garrison:
There was just a ludicrous amount of content being made.
Sekani Solomon:
Yeah. I mean I get it. If you're seeing people posting, "Oh, I made $10K. Oh, I made $20K. Oh, I made $50K," naturally it's going to generate a certain level of FOMO that no matter how confident or strong you are, you might fall prey to. Even for me, it was like, "Oh, someone could do a low-effort NFT and make 100 grand. Why don't I do that?"
Mack Garrison:
Yeah. What am I doing, right? You're like, "I'm pilling around making stuff anyway on a Saturday night. Might as well throw this up there and see what I can get."
Sekani Solomon:
Exactly. So, I think they’re here to stay. It's good because it's another avenue where people could generate value for their art, but, for me, it's tricky because it's hard to figure out how people value the work. In some ways, in fact in a lot of ways, it mirrors the actual art world. There's a lot of speculation. It's all about the actual artist. From that perspective, it's not necessarily new. What's new is that it's in the digital realm.
For us who are more commercial artists, having that experience of what more fine artists have to go through was super eye-opening. You have to remind yourself it's not necessarily just about the quality work you do, but also how people perceive it. Whether it's from a speculative standpoint or a, “oh, this is really cool” standpoint. You just have to go into it with low expectations, that's the mentally sound way. Even for me, I made some stuff, and I was like, "I have nothing to lose, so I'm just going to go high and see what happens." Then nothing was sold. I was like-
Mack Garrison:
Oh.
Sekani Solomon:
Very humbling.
Mack Garrison:
It's wild. It's such a hype business, right? If there's hype around something or people are excited about something, it builds it up. People feel like it's going to be rare, that this is a moment and they want to be a part of it. That, to me, is very similar to the art world. I even remember I had this internship early on at this art gallery called The Mahler in Downtown Raleigh. Seeing some of the artwork and how certain artists were valued more than others, and both of them would have the same quality, just with different styles. One artist had more hype that went around them, so when their pieces would get in there, people would come and buy them. It's kind of crazy because both pieces looked good. It's so subjective. To your point, it's now translating into the digital world. That's really interesting.
Mack Garrison:
I haven't done any of the NFT stuff, but what I am excited about is motion design being used outside of traditional deliverables, right? We always have these projects, where it's like, "let's make this video for the purpose of selling or advertising," or, "to live on Facebook.” For me, the thing that I get excited about with motion design is what the future can be. How do we start using it in nontraditional ways? What could we do to activate a space with motion design, or with NFTs? Now people are purchasing it as artwork. It creates a different avenue to utilize it.
That's what's really exciting because while motion design is very new, for the last decade or so the deliverables that we've been creating with it, at least on the commercial side, have been pretty consistent. To have this kind of influx of new energy coming in and a new deliverable...I think it's going to get people excited and also start to get people asking the question. It's like, "Well, okay, if NFTs are happening, what else can be out there? What else could we be doing with motion design?" Which I think is unique too.
Sekani Solomon:
Because now you're creating work solely just to create work. You can express who you are as an artist without the constraints of having to meet business needs or anything else that could be a constraint.
Mack Garrison:
Exactly. Well, that's a good segway to what you think the future of motion design looks like. What are your thoughts, Sekani? As we start to look ahead to where we're going and what we're doing, do you have any idea what might be popular here soon?
Sekani Solomon:
Yeah. Well, the good news is that motion design is everywhere because for the last, I want to say, 18 months, we've been adjusting to our new world. Doing that usually requires motion or some type of animation, so I think there are even more opportunities for people to enter the space. The problem is that people's attention spans are so short that now, especially from a commercial standpoint, when you're creating content, you need to design it in a way to capture people's attention depending on what platform you're putting it out on. It's not like the days where you could just drop something on Vimeo, and people will sit for five whole minutes straight.
Mack Garrison:
They'll leave after ten seconds if it's not exciting.
Sekani Solomon:
Exactly. Now, especially with advertising and designing for social media, it's like you’ve got to capture people within that first two to three seconds or you lose them, which is a challenge in itself. How do you make good content and have visual storytelling with those parameters? That's a good challenge, but there's still traditional media, like TV and YouTube which I think are helpful. You can work with longer durations, like ten to fifteen seconds.
Mack Garrison:
Well, it's interesting. It's almost like I've seen it becoming popular in two instances. You either have a demographic that wants something that's 30 seconds long, and you aim for 30 seconds. Or, conversely, it's really long. Something more like episodic content where you're talking about people watching tutorials or they're looking at brands like they've looked at Netflix and Hulu. Somewhere people will go to stream a TV show they watch. They're going to start doing the same thing with brands that they're interested in.
I know at least from a studio perspective, we've been getting a lot more work. People are trying to become subject matter experts in things or they’re putting out a series of videos that are a bit longer. To your point, you're either trying to do everything you can to condense a story down to be as short as possible or you're working with something that's minutes worth of content. I'm trying to figure out how I can animate something that long.
“I try to get a balance between looking at motion design references, but also real-world things for form, shape, and texture. motion design inspiration is good, but if you’re only looking at motion design references, you're going to keep creating similar things.”
Sekani Solomon:
Right, exactly. This is the thing. I was speaking more to the commercial space, but also, if you're a content creator, people are now looking for good content. If you always just want to make animated videos of longer durations, there are opportunities to do that as well. The bottom line is people are way more receptive to content than they think. Almost every company wants it in some form or fashion. It's just a great time to be involved, especially with the software becoming easier to pick up.
Mack Garrison:
Oh, yeah, and accessible. It's not as expensive anymore. I mean, Scene Cinema 4D dropped in prices. Even Adobe came down. I've never seen more motion designers coming into the space than ever before right now. Particularly with programs like School of Motion, MoGraph Mentor, and the education that's surrounding it now. It feels more achievable for anybody than it was when we were first coming up, which is cool.
Sekani Solomon:
For us, just from the hardware perspective, you can enter because you’re needed... A lot of renderers were CPU-based, so if you needed to scale the power, you needed to buy another machine versus buying another GPU. From that standpoint, it's a really good time. The cost of entry is dramatically reduced.
Mack Garrison:
It's probably why you're seeing more freelancers too. I didn't even think about that.
All right. Well, Sekani, I don't want to give away too much because you're going to be talking here in about a month and change or so. Any little tidbits or secrets you want to share on what you're thinking about talking towards at the Dash Bash this year?
Sekani Solomon:
Yeah, I think a lot of it is going to be about my journey and how I approach the work to make it unique and stand out. I want to talk a little bit about the process because it’s nice to show the fancy visuals, but it's also nice to show how we got there. I think just showing my journey is also important, especially as a Person of Color in a field that's not necessarily very diverse to showcase that you can make it. Obviously, it does require a lot of work, but there are so many opportunities that exist that people just aren't aware of. Yeah, I think it just would be good to elaborate on that a little bit.
Mack Garrison:
I think that's great. We want this festival to be inspiring, but also honest. I love our industry, but there's clearly a racial gap in creative leadership. As we look ahead to the future, motion design is changing. It's going to be changed. It only makes sense that we put people in the forefront who we know are creative leaders and we know are changing the game, and Sekani, I think that's you, bud. So we're excited to have you be a part of our festival!
Sekani Solomon:
I'm very excited. It's interesting. Even though motion design is more accessible, I think in some ways, it could be more difficult. Now you have so much access to the software and the tools, but people aren't learning the things that make motion design great; the storytelling, conceptualizing, design. Those are the fundamentals. You might be using Cinema 4D today, but if another tool were to come out 10 years, 15 years from now, we would have to switch into that.
It also serves as a means to get the idea out of your head, and that's where I always start every project. What's the idea? What are the concepts? And you kind of shape everything around that. That's also something I want to touch on in the presentation; ideas first, concepts, and learning that skill is important. Especially being in a leadership role, so much of the job you would know this, Mack, is just communication and articulating ideas.
Mack Garrison:
Oh, yeah. 100%. 100%.
One of our foundational points to get a job at dash, we have some core attributes, one of them is being gregarious. Not necessarily being outgoing or talkative, but particularly as it relates to design. You have to be able to explain why you did something, your reasoning behind it, why you believe that this is the answer to the problem at hand because, yes, we're making cool stuff. At a foundational level, people are paying us because they have a problem at hand and need us to solve it creatively, right? So, to have staff able to talk through the reasoning of why they're making certain choices and why those choices are solving a problem...that's how you move forward. That's how you get bigger and better projects. So I totally agree with that comment.
Sekani Solomon:
A good thing is, there are a lot more resources. I think it requires more diligence. Again, with School of Motion and all those different avenues, if you're interested you can learn all the things. It's so nuanced and based on that individual's perspective too because I think that's the thing that makes a motion designer unique is your ideas and the way that you approach the work.
Sekani Solomon:
That's why when approaching a project, I learned the process from conceptualization to the final product. That's how I started in motion design when I was younger. I made my own projects, which I think have helped me. Especially now, I could do a deck and I could be like, "Well, this is the concept," as a base for people to work from, but I could also jump in and create stuff. It's been helpful for me.
Mack Garrison:
Ah, that's great. Sekani, I'm so pumped for the conversations here in September. Really enjoyed this conversation. It was so nice to meet you in person. There are so many folks I’ve followed for a number of years, but I have no idea what they sound like or look like, so it's always great to have a quick chat. Particularly before you're coming down here and hanging out with us for a few days!
Sekani Solomon:
Yeah, it's going to be fun, Mack. I'm looking forward to it!
Takeover Tuesday with Elise Leonard
Q&A with Elise Leonard, a Freelance Illustrator, Storyboard Artist, and Art Director
based in Brussels.
Q&A with Elise Leonard.
Read time: 5min
Madison Caprara:
How are you doing, Elise? Could you give us a little insight into yourself and how you originally got into the illustration game?
Elise Leonard:
Hi Madison. I’m pretty good, and happy to be participating in dash’s social media feature! I’m a French/Belgian Illustrator from Brussels, though I grew up in France mostly and spent a few years in Brazil. I moved to Belgium when I was 20 for Design School.
I’m a very curious person when it comes to various topics. I spend a lot of my time learning new things. When I’m not drawing, I love listening to scientific podcasts (I thought for a very long time that I wanted to be a Biologist), reading books, watching tv-series and movies, and making projects on societal topics such as feminism, human rights, gender equality, diversity, and inclusivity. Like a lot of illustrators, I have drawn since I was a child, but I gravitated more to a scientific path in the beginning. It only clicked into my head when I had to make a choice for college. I’m still not sure what made me switch from science to art, but that was a very exciting decision. I first started to work in advertising, then moved to illustration and art direction in a video production agency. I have been a Freelance Illustrator and Art Director for almost one year now.
Madison Caprara:
You spoke about originally wanting to be a biologist. Before the switch, was there any part of you that wanted to turn your passion for drawing into your profession?
Elise Leonard:
Actually, not at all. My dad shared with me his passion for drawing when I was little. He was first an Industrial Designer, but when he lost his job, he found it difficult to live with what he was earning as an Illustrator at that time. He completely switched careers, so I grew up with the idea that drawing wasn’t possible to make a profitable career from. But I’m so happy that I went about forming my own opinion. I discovered that I COULD turn my passion into my profession.
Madison Caprara:
Now that you’re living in Brussels again, how does the city affect your work? Do you draw much from the cultural climate?
Elise Leonard:
Brussels is a multicultural environment. You can meet so many different people with different backgrounds and styles. That’s very inspiring for me. I’m always trying to work with that in my mind, to be as inclusive as possible when I’m drawing characters. We also have a very robust cultural offering: museums, theaters, concerts, exhibitions. The alternative scene is very present and accessible. All allow me to easily feed my inspiration!
Madison Caprara:
And, do you have a favorite subject matter or genre of work to pull from?
Elise Leonard:
I mostly work for the animation industry. I love to create characters, storyboards, and gesture drawings, though I’m still learning how to find the right balance between accuracy (being anatomically correct) and stylization. I find it fascinating to understand how the human body works and try to implement it into my art.
My favorite subjects to pull from are societal and environmental topics. Working on these kinds of projects made me learn so much about the topics themselves. I like to dig deep when learning about a topic; listening to podcasts, reading articles, talking with people. Drawing is my way of taking notes. I believe that you always learn something new when you draw.
Madison Caprara:
It’s always so interesting to hear about the different tactics people use to ingest information!
Moving on, you began your career with a full-time gig, correct? Tell us about your experience as Head of Design for the ad agency.
Elise Leonard:
That’s correct! Just after school, my first full-time job was in the advertising industry. Starting as a Graphic Designer, then graduating to Head of Design, I grew a lot. You have to learn so many real-world things that you don’t at school. For example, how to solve clients' problems and finding the best solution, how to fit into a new style or a strategic/marketing direction, how to deal with stress and planning, how to work in a team and lead a project, how to argue to defend your design choices…I left my first job stronger than I was before.
Madison Caprara:
Is full-time work a path you would initially recommend for others hoping to break into the creative industry?
Elise Leonard:
From my experience, yes. I believe that working at least one year surrounded by talented people who can share their daily experiences with you is very valuable. Working in an agency makes you discover all of the other jobs and responsibilities that are essential to the realization of a project. I’ve learned a lot from project and account managers that I may not have if not associated with an agency.
Madison Caprara:
That being said, was there anything in particular that led you to freelance work? Was it a difficult transition for you after experiencing that team mentality?
Elise Leonard:
I had met great freelancers working in the industry who inspired me to take the leap. There is one community called, L’Enroule (literally meaning “a scam” in French), here in Brussels created by Fabien Rousseau, a Freelance Animator. The group organizes meetups in hopes of connecting all the creative peeps within the city. I went to one of those meetups and it offered so many new perspectives to doing my illustration job as a freelancer. Now, I’m a part of this community and I’m sharing a studio, Château l’Enroule, with six other freelancers.
I was a bit afraid that freelancing was synonymous with working alone from my home, but it doesn’t have to be. Sharing a studio with other freelancers in the industry is like being roommates. You can work on your own projects while sharing the fun part of being on a team! Also, one of my previous colleagues, Simon Schu, made the same decision as me, and we joined the studio at the same time. We try to work together on some projects when we can. I won’t lie, the decision was a bit stressful and not easy to make, but I don’t regret it. Being surrounded by inspiring people made it smoother.
Madison Caprara:
Working remotely myself, it can get a bit hard to be alone all the time, even with Zoom calls and the occasional in-person hangout. I love that we’ve created these coworking spaces for when people need a little human interaction!
On another note, what is something that most hinders your creative mindset?
Elise Leonard:
Self-doubt. When you are constantly learning, you also are always pushing the finish line away from you. Which is great! It’s stimulating and leaves no room for boredom. But your ability to see what works and what doesn’t grows faster than your ability to actually do it. That can be very frustrating and brings a lot of doubts. Will I ever be good enough? There are so many talented people around me, will I ever be able to reach their level? When I’m in that mood, it helps me to look back on my old work and realize the journey that I’ve already made.
Madison Caprara:
There’s that Imposter Syndrome again. Everyone goes through it.
What are some of the strategies you’ve developed for finding inspiration without getting overwhelmed by the work of artists you admire?
Elise Leonard:
Social media has a bright and a dark side. You can find endless inspiration and discover amazing artists, but you can also easily feel overwhelmed and be trapped within that comparison effect. One of the strategies that work for me is to find other sources of inspiration in creative fields outside of illustration and animation. Watching a film, reading a book, going to the theater…they fill your cup without being tempted to compare your work.
Madison Caprara:
Speaking of, what are some of your go-to’s for inspiration?
Elise Leonard:
Behance is a huge source, I like to look at the featured weekly projects.
I’m a huge fan of the chronicle book series, “The Art Of…” I like to dive into those books to explore the behind-the-scenes of Disney and Pixar movies, to see the exploratory sketches, and to discover the ideas that didn’t make it into the film.
Animation, design, and art festivals are a concentrated source of inspiration taking place over the span of a few days. I didn’t get the chance to go often, but I hope to do it more in the future.
Patreon is also a great platform to discover and support artists' work. They share their workflows, tips, tutorials, and behind-the-scenes. It’s definitely one of my go-to’s for finding inspiration.
Madison Caprara:
What about your own work? Do you have an all-time favorite piece you’ve created?
Elise Leonard:
There are many pieces that I really love, but I can’t call any my “all-time favorite,” as my art is constantly evolving, as are my tastes.
Madison Caprara:
Fair! Is there anything special we can look forward to seeing from you in the near future?
Elise Leonard:
My first year of freelance is almost behind me, and I’m very grateful for how it went. I hope for my second year to have more remote international opportunities. I’d also like to work within the entertainment industry.
There are a few ongoing animation projects with Simon that I hope we will be able to share soon, we hope to collaborate more in the future. Regarding my personal artistic projects, I plan to make a series of drawings to celebrate women's diversity.
Madison Caprara:
Well, we’ll definitely be keeping an eye open for that, Elise!
Do you have any closing advice you’d like to end with?
Elise Leonard:
I think that I’ve used the term “learning” so many times within my replies. It’s going to sound super cheesy, but never stop learning. Being an illustrator is a long run. Be curious, surround yourself with great people, share what you’ve learned, and continue to push your finish line far far away from you.
Takeover Tuesday with Phoenix Owens
Q&A with Phoenix Owens, an LA-based Motion Designer, Illustrator, and self-dubbed GIF Master.
Q&A with Phoenix Owens
Read time: 10min
Madison Caprara:
Hey, Phoenix! Why don’t you give us a little introduction to yourself and your work? How would you describe your style?
Phoenix Owens:
Hi, y'all! Thank you so much for having me. My name is Phoenix Owens, I’m an Illustrator, Designer, and occasional Animator. I am originally from a small town in Georgia called Kennesaw but now reside in Los Angeles. I exchanged the yellow pollen for the sunny skies and am loving it!
I graduated from Otis College of Art and Design in 2016, majoring in Digital Media with a focus in Motion Graphics. Now post-graduation, I’ve been working in the design industry for the past five years. I would describe my style as a happy accident that came about by a lot of trial and error. Within my pieces, you will find elongated and curvy body proportions which is a common characteristic that is found in Black excellence, beauty, and acceptance. Additionally, I showcase powerful women. This is a nod to being raised by two remarkable women: my Japanese grandmother, and biracial mother.
Madison Caprara:
I definitely noticed those themes in your personal, illustrative work. It’s great to get a little background on that!
Having graduated from Otis College of Art and Design, what are your thoughts on pursuing a formal education within this industry? Necessary or not?
Phoenix Owens:
I think each person has to answer that question for themselves. Personally, going to art school was necessary to awaken my creative potential. I liken it to those martial arts movies like The 36th Chamber of Shaolin where the protagonist enters the Shaolin training facility to become a better martial artist; I had to do that for myself. I knew if I tried it out on my own, I would find an excuse to give up.
Going to Otis helped me develop the artistic discipline necessary to become successful. Art school is expensive, but it was a worthwhile investment for me. Now I know people who didn’t attend college and are doing great in the industry. My advice is to determine your path and be devoted to your journey no matter what others say.
Madison Caprara:
Other than gaining discipline, was there anything you believe you would not have gained on your own if you had chosen to forgo Otis?
Phoenix Owens:
In addition, I needed to build a foundation of art knowledge. Knowledge is definitely power! At the time, I had an understanding and working knowledge of different types of art styles but I didn’t have the language to understand why they worked. By attending Otis, I was pushed to study art history, fundamentals, and current styles. Not gonna lie, I hated doing all of that homework but I’ve experienced the value of knowledge gained during projects that I’ve worked on. Even though I have graduated, I am an avid learner and I feel once you stop learning you die creatively.
Madison Caprara:
So, you graduated college and landed a full-time gig with PopTV. How did that come about? What kind of work were you doing?
Phoenix Owens:
Wow! You’re really taking me down memory lane with this question. The time of my graduation was very stressful. While I was in college, I was working three on-campus jobs to pay rent and other expenses. Upon graduation, I didn’t have those jobs anymore. To make rent I had to sell some of my possessions. It was a ‘do or move’ situation, meaning if I couldn’t find a job then I would have to move back to Georgia with my family. I decided that my current job was to apply for work every single day, morning to evening. I came upon the PopTV opening while looking on a job board. It was listed as a Motion Designer position.
I applied at 9:00 am and got an immediate response asking for a meeting that same day. Nervously, I took the interview and thinking back on it, I must have looked like a hot mess. I had straight red hair at the time and wore a dress-up shirt and nice slacks to the interview. Never again. So the meeting was with the Creative Services Manager and the On-Air Design Director. Long story short, they hated my portfolio and critiqued the heck out of it. I left the meeting feeling like an amateur and was 100% positive that I wouldn’t get the job. I went back to my apartment, calmed my nerves with my Buddhist practice, and made the decision that I wouldn’t give up. PopTV was where I was meant to be.
Phoenix Owens:
I started studying different broadcast design effects as well as the type of on-air spots PopTV would use. That night I created a 10-second piece that highlighted one of their shows and sent it to the manager and director the next morning with my thank you email. Three hours later I got a call from the manager who offered me a position, but it wasn’t the position I had originally applied for. It was an opportunity to support the Social Media Department.
While working at PopTV, I learned how an in-house design team functions for a network. I tell people I mostly made GIFs and dubbed myself as a GIF Master. I would have to find spots in each episode to GIF out for live-tweeting. At times, the producers would watch the show and give me timecodes to reference or I would watch the episode myself. This is how I became a fan of Schitt’s Creek. I had to watch the episodes to find moments, naturally, I started liking it. Now, I didn’t only do GIFs (which at times it seemed like I did) but I also got to create other content for social media, like tune-in cards and video memes. Towards the end of my time at PopTV, I became the go-to person for on-air, tune-in messaging. So if you ever watched the station during that time, you saw the graphics I animated telling you what show was coming up next.
Madison Caprara:
Wow, mad props to you for taking that extra initiative and going after what you wanted!
What do you think it is about GIFs that make them such an interesting medium?
Phoenix Owens:
I see them as another language or form of expression. One of my favorite shows is The Office, I especially love seeing so many GIFs made featuring Michael Scott. While I know exactly which episode a Michael Scott GIF comes from, the way it could be used in conversation is an entirely different language. The use of an animated picture takes personal expression to another level of understanding and interpretation when discussing dialogues, plots, and themes. I find them quite fun and enjoy seeing the ones I created out in the wild.
Madison Caprara:
Even more importantly, is it pronounced ‘JIF’ or ‘GIF’?
Phoenix Owens:
JIF is a peanut butter brand that can be bought at your local grocery store. It makes a great snack (pro tip) when working late nights on a project or playing video games. So from this GIF Master, it is pronounced ‘GIF’!
Madison Caprara:
You’ve heard it here from the GIF Master himself. Thank you for settling that debate.
You have some pretty top-notch projects within your portfolio. I know you spoke a little on it before, but I’m definitely fangirling over the Schitt’s Creek work. What has been your favorite project to date?
Phoenix Owens:
Not listed on my portfolio site, but my favorite project is a Juneteenth one that I worked on with Creative Mammals. The client happened to be with Disney, who is on my dream client list! So when Creative Mammals approached me to jump on board I didn’t hesitate to say yes. I was designing and illustrating a Juneteenth piece during a time when it had just become a national holiday. I am proud to have been part of such a historic work.
Madison Caprara:
What about the most challenging project you’ve taken on?
Phoenix Owens:
Honestly, I can’t pick one project that is challenging. I feel each project that I am tasked to do poses its own individual challenges. It isn’t so much about knowing how to do something as it is about me facing my inner doubt. My Imposter Syndrome that surfaces every time I start working. Thoughts of: “They made a mistake by hiring me” or “I’m not qualified to be in this position” race around my mind and are quite frustrating. I keep this Buddhist quote close to my heart “Become the master of your mind rather than let your mind master you.” I’m learning to trust myself and my abilities more as I continue to grow as an artist. There is always a solution to any art project.
Madison Caprara:
I have yet to meet a single person, creative or not, who hasn’t experienced Imposter Syndrome to some degree. That in itself is a little comforting. We’re all just out here doing our best.
Now, you’ve pivoted over to freelance work, correct? Have there been any significant hurdles with that career change?
Phoenix Owens:
Becoming a freelancer wasn’t by design. I was working at PopTV when the company became a part of the ViacomCBS merger, and I was one of the people who got laid off in February 2020. I was terrified. In the midst of the layoff, we saw the whole world shut down because of the COVID-pandemic in early March of that year. I was directionless for months as I watched how things were unfolding in the world. Like a lot of people, the unknown was scary for me but I decided to make good use of my time. I started drawing more and taking online classes to expand my knowledge. I saw my time spent learning as training for a battle in the future. I did struggle within my studies, as I have a habit of comparing my work to others. I’m sure a lot of people know this is the fastest way to discourage yourself.
The biggest challenge of starting off as a freelancer for me was that I didn’t see people who looked like me in the industry. When I looked at the landscape of the motion design industry, I didn’t see any Black artists. I felt I was at a disadvantage and that I wouldn’t be hired because it isn’t the norm to see a Black person in the motion design industry. With the tragic passing of George Floyd, reigniting the worldwide Black Lives Matter movement, everything changed for me. It was like an emotional alarm clock that woke up the world. Every industry had to look at itself, and what became apparent was the lack of BIPOC. Because of that, I feel a lot of opportunities are now being given to BIPOC. I even had a studio specifically say they were focused on hiring a Black designer because of their lack of diversity. Personally, it felt disingenuous but I guess at least they were being honest. Now that I have been successfully freelancing for one year, I hope I’m known for my hard work and skillset and not as a diversity hire.
Madison Caprara:
It’s sad that it took a tragic, completely avoidable event to channel that lens inward. Something that now needs to be the focus of these companies, is making sure that they’re not just making these diversity hires for the sake of reaching a certain demographic percentage. The solution requires more depth. Companies need to prioritize educating themselves on this country’s long-standing history of systematic racism as a whole. It’s not enough to WANT to create change, you need to truly understand WHY it’s necessary in the first place.
Pivoting back to your freelance experience, I recently read a study on how out of every professional industry, creative freelancers were hit the hardest by this pandemic. I’ve gotten some pretty mixed reviews on that statement. Some are saying that the emphasis on remote work has significantly opened their client pool. Does this ring true for you?
Phoenix Owens:
I started freelancing during the pandemic. Because of that, I don’t have the same experiences as some of my friends who had to go in-person to studios before everything went remote. For me, I am enjoying this remote working life. I feel it is such a great way to work with companies all around the nation and the world. I never would have believed that I could work for a company in New York or Atlanta while still living in Los Angeles.
Madison Caprara:
I am also a member of Team Remote.
Where do you go for inspiration?
Phoenix Owens:
I don’t have a set place for inspiration, but I know that it comes to me once I stop working and step away from the computer. At times, it feels like I'm always attached to my computer screen. Inspiration seems to strike me at weird moments. I don’t tend to look for it. Listening to music or going to music festivals, traveling, going to museums, looking at fashion trends, talking to people, or watching anime or shows are my go-to places. When I allow myself to relax and immerse myself in a moment, I tend to be more open to creative thought. A lot of times it is a question of “What if” and I would take a picture, write down the idea, or do a quick sketch on my phone. By creating a log of my inspiration I have a library to go back to when I need it the most.
Madison Caprara:
Is there anything special we can look forward to seeing from you?
Phoenix Owens:
I have an ongoing list of creative goals. A few things I will do by the end of the year are learning 2D animation, coming up with a new art style, and starting to sell prints and merch of my work. I find that having goals keeps me excited and focused as an artist. I never want to become stagnant as a creator.
Madison Caprara:
Well, I really enjoyed this talk, Phoenix. Wrapping up, do you have a final piece of advice or closing point you’d like to end on?
Phoenix Owens:
I want everyone to know that it’s okay to be scared, but don’t let that fear hinder you from going after what makes you happy. For me, I don’t want to look back and have regrets that I didn’t do something because it wasn’t worth the challenge. Pursuing your passion and doing what you love isn’t easy. It will challenge you mentally and physically, but those pains aren’t forever. When they pass, you’ll look back on them as needed obstacles for growth.
Be sure to do things outside of work. It helps to have a balanced lifestyle to refuel you creatively. Whether it is playing video games or hiking, taking time away from the screen is therapeutic.
Phoenix Owens:
Oh and one last thing, remember to drink water!
Freelancing 101 with Ryan Summers
Relationship building, mental health, and the art of negotiating; just three of the many topics we discussed with Ryan Summers. Ryan has worked with the likes of Guillermo Del Toro and JJ Abrams and is currently a Creative Director at School of Motion.
Q&A with Ryan Summers
Read time: 20 min
Ryan Summers:
It's hard.
It was less hard for me this time because when I was at BK Kitchen, the last year I was working by myself in two separate rooms. I had two big projects I bounced back and forth from. But when I went from working at Royale to freelancing from home for Odd Fellows, it drove me nuts. The culture was so awesome at Royale. We were playing music all the time. We were playing video games and helping each other with projects. Then all of a sudden, it was just silence. It didn’t take very long for me to be like, this is crazy. This is not normal.
Mack Garrison:
I'm trying to keep the same regimen that I had at the office. Waking up, working out, getting my coffee. Trying to keep some daily structure to it. It's such a slippery slope. Even this morning I woke up, I was like, well I'm working from home, I don't have to work out. I could just sleep a little bit longer. And that's when you start getting dangerous, man.
Ryan Summers:
You need a space that's just for work if you can. Even if it's just a desk to separate work mode. And then, you need a routine. Routine is the biggest thing.
Mack Garrison:
No, that's a really good point.
Thinking about the dash bash; about the demographics that are going to be there. I think there are a lot of people that are either just getting into freelance, rising in the freelance game, or on the precipice of starting their studio. What are some things that folks should be thinking about when they're going off on their own? I’m thinking about how it can catch you off guard when you find yourself in this lonely situation that you hadn't been in before. What are some struggles you think people should be preparing for as they go into the freelance game?
Ryan Summers:
I've been in that position, granted, not in this kind of specifically-geared environment. But the first thing is always runaway and capital. If you have to worry about having enough money in two weeks, you're not going to be your best artist or your best business person going forward. So as much as possible, I try and have that runaway figured out so that there's a safety net. But as much as the financial stuff is important, I think the psychological enemies are difficult no matter what. There are so many factors of, “I've got to learn stuff, I've got to network, I've got to decide if I want to just be a great animator or move into art directing.”
But then when you compile that with freelance or trying to get into a place and then chasing bookings and payment, that's going to be more complicated right now. I think that the best thing I can tell people is to try to create an ad hoc mastermind group for themselves. I know there are lots of buzzwords going around, but if there's a way to try to create some sense of community, even while you're working at home; a shared group of people like you would have in an office where you build relationships...I hate the word networking, but building relationships in this day and age is so important. So that every morning you have somebody to spot check and be like, "Dude, are you a red light right now, or are you a green light? Are you feeling good? Awful?"
Ryan Summers:
What happens is, you'll talk to people online and you lose tone. People right now want to put a good spin on everything and be positive. But if you start seeing people every day or every two days, just visually looking at each other, you know when someone says something but there's something else behind what they’re saying. It's really important to start building those relationships now as freelancers.
You might be stressed out and not even realize it, but if you have somebody else who can be like, "dude, something's up. What's going on?" They can kind of push. Whereas, when you're just sitting at home in your room trying to go down and trying to get work done, it's easy to push way too fast, way too far.
Mack Garrison:
That's a really good point. I remember before starting dash, I worked for an agency for about four and a half years here in North Carolina. I don't think you realize how isolated you become. It's really interesting talking about finding that group of people and just having someone to check in on you to make sure that you're doing okay. That you're not pulling your hair out every day, because you start to lose track of time, and things blend. You're working all the time because the work is right there at home. It's a slippery slope that can get dangerous quickly if you're not cognizant of that.
I also remember some of the pains that go with freelance. What you alluded to earlier was chasing money and trying to get paid. I don't know why this industry is so challenging with that, it's still an issue. Part of it is also, as people get older, we're more cognizant of that. Making sure I don’t forget where I was as a freelancer and how frustrating it was to get paid, so not doing the same thing that other folks did to me.
Mack Garrison:
As far as just tips and tricks, what’s something that may be useful, whether it is for a studio or a freelancer when it comes to getting paid? If the client's not paying you, do you have a protocol?
Ryan Summers:
I end up using this word too much because it means different things for different scenarios. But, it's going back to that relationship. I do open office hours where people can come in to talk. A lot of times we just talk about demo reels or freelance life. I'm always surprised by how many people don’t establish relationships. For example, your first interaction with a client. When you’d walk up to someone - before COVID - you'd shake their hand. That first meeting sets the tone for the relationship going forward. I'm shocked by how many people don't have contracts or deal memos with a list of working requirements. They’ll establish the relationship almost as if they're doing a favor for a buddy versus entering into a work agreement.
So, when you start a relationship - let's say somebody wants to work at dash - you’d say, "Hey, dash wants to bring you in for freelance." The person should immediately reply with, "well, here's my deal memo. My understanding is that you're booking me for two weeks with the option of holding me for two more weeks. This is my daily rate. This is my after-hours overtime rate," with the definition of what is considered overtime. If you don't have your full understanding and expectations set up at the beginning, it's really hard to circle back and say “okay, will you promise me you are going to do this?” I'm shocked by how many people fumble the ball for themselves. Whether they're new to it, they're naive, they're intimidated, or it's a big client that they don't want to start on a bad relationship with. Treat your first interaction with anyone you may be working for or working with as a business relationship. Then, everything else is easier.
Style frame from “GOOGLE: Meet Data.” Animated by Ryan Summers.
Mack Garrison:
So, I think back to when we started dash as partners, Cory and I. We were best friends going into it. We had known each other for four and a half years and were so excited. We still went to a lawyer and got an operational agreement done. Everything was great then, but introducing a business when you're going off together in a partnership can have so many wildcards. Luckily we haven't had anything happen, but having that contract upfront is preparing you should things go south. Of course, the expectation is that it won't, but it gives you something to lean on.
Another thing, I remember being shocked that contracts were negotiable. One time our lawyer was like, "Hey, you could push back on this." And I was like, "really? I just assumed that it was boilerplate, when someone sends you the contract it is what it is."
Ryan Summers:
Absolutely. I'm so glad you say that coming from the studio-side because I think that's rare to hear. I tell people all the time, whether you're negotiating for freelance or negotiating for a staff position, 1.) Everything's negotiable, and 2.) There are a lot of things to consider; you have so many more arrows in your quiver than you realize. It's not just your day rate or your yearly salary. There are other things and tools you have at your advantage so that you're not being leveraged up. Right off the bat, in your contract, you can state that if this project doesn't work out, I would love it if you would try to book me on another job, but if you can’t find anything, release me with my kill fee. Or, it's just you let go of me immediately, so I could go find another booking.
I find so few people run into those situations, I know people who don't use the hold system. You may not get as many offers for bookings, but I know talented freelance illustrators and motion designers that would say, “book me or not, I don't want to play the hold game.” On the flip side, I know others that are like, “man, I've got three holds and none of them booked and now I'm looking at nothing on Monday. I'm going to have to eat this week. Trying to find more work.”
Mack Garrison:
That's a really good comment that you brought there. One of the things that I’d recognized when we initially started hiring freelancers outside of our internal staff, particularly down here in the South, people were just wanting to get hired or not. There wasn't a hold system. We only encountered that when we started getting involved with New York, LA, Chicago. Do you feel it’s more common in smaller or bigger markets?
Ryan Summers:
There are positives and negatives to the hold system. The big thing you have to remember as a freelancer is that you are entering into partnerships with companies that need temporary work. As much as everyone's pushing the freelance manifesto, that it is the one true way to work. It gives you so much more leverage being in temporary work-for-hire situations. When that goes away, they're never indebted to you. In my experiences, the hold system is different if you're talking about the three markets; the Midwest - Chicago for example - New York, and LA. They all have slightly different variations of the system. However, every shop seems to lightly honor it, which is again, completely informal, non-legally binding, and arbitrary.
It’s really confusing and, unfortunately, aimed more towards the person doing the hiring versus the hiree. But as I said, you don't have to follow that. If a company needs style frames done and you're an amazing artist or a great illustrator, they can book you. And maybe they only book you for two days to kind of "hold you." But they have the money to do that. They have the means. It's neat that you said you’ve never encountered it until you started pulling people.
“motionographer awards and ceremonies are not just about highlighting who is the best. they’re to show people that our work exists beyond being used as marketing material for a client.”
Mack Garrison:
Exactly. It's like it's the disparity, and the system itself highlights how broken it is. When there's no consistency and no one's operating in the same sort of game or playing field, it sheds light on the fact that it's not great. The thing that I don't like about it, which you also alluded to, is that it benefits the studio.
That's terrible, there should be more repercussions for a studio if they’re just willy-nilly throwing around someone else's schedule like that. Which is one of the reasons when we first started that we didn't operate on holds a lot. We’d just approach people when we were ready to book. Now, we come into problems with that too. If you're reaching out to someone to book them a week and a half out from when they're supposed to start, a lot of top talent will already be booked up. But the good news is, at least we started to hopefully build a reputation that when we do reach out, we’re serious about the work, it wasn't something frivolous. I think it'd be better if the whole industry started operating like that.
Style frame from “Detroiters - Main Titles.” Animated by Ryan Summers.
Ryan Summers:
As I said, these are all relationships, they need to be built around trust. As long as someone has a relationship with you and they trust you, you can accept the hold system for what it might be. But when you start dealing with a situation where a studio starts spam holding multiple people for a job that may not come because they're pitching, then there's this epidemic of getting held and released with no penalty. For the freelancers, however, there are.
The leverage is in the artist's hands. They just don't realize it. It doesn't take freelancers that much to get a hold of the client they may be working with. And we're all working with the same software, we're all working with the same hardware. If you're working in CG, you're probably putting your stuff up on the same rendering service. Now there's no real magic into how this stuff gets done anymore, other than the people. So, it's a dangerous time for studios that abuse a hold system or believe freelancers are just interchangeable cogs in the machine because the shops are going to be perceived that way pretty soon once it’s realized that the people drive it all.
Mack Garrison:
That’s a great point. And it's something that we've been having internal conversations about as well. If you look at the industry as the whole, it's pinching, right? On the top end, you have the clients that would typically go to agencies for full turnkey creative help; website, branding, motion, whatever. But now those in-house teams are getting better. They're starting to hire motion designers, ultimately they just don't need as much work. What that means is that instead of going to the agency for everything, they're going to go directly to the studio for the motion work. All of a sudden, you find studios like Dash that are now competing with smaller agencies for the same type of work.
But then as you alluded to on the bottom end, freelancers are also getting better. So now, some of the bottom projects that we still take on are being taken by freelancers. So, you're getting this tension in the industry. And to your point, I think it's okay NOW because there's plenty of work going around, but it makes you wonder what the future of this industry is going to look like. Is it the smaller studio shops and freelancers that are going to flourish? Is there a world where the bigger agencies still exist? I don't know. What are your thoughts when you think about the future of motion design?
Ryan Summers:
I'm super excited about it. I know that's a weird thing to say right now, but I think there's one additional factor to what we're talking about. A traditional, large motion design shop, especially the agencies, is not only getting attacks from the top and the bottom, but they're also getting stretched out in the middle. Because as an agency, they're full service; they do everything short of ad buying, which is kind of like the mystery box of our world. But as you said, a studio has a team full of people so that they don't have to go out to a large motion shop. They don't trust the large agencies as much as they used to, but the agencies themselves are getting gutted out from the inside. We know where peoples’ eyeballs are and we know how to attract their eyeballs in terms of commercials or whatever you may be doing. However, they don't understand social media. The landscape is changing so fast. Agencies don’t understand advertising.
Ryan Summers:
Because of the eyeball shift to streaming and social media, every six months there's a new service. TikTok is it now, it used to be YouTube. Agencies can't see bumpers, so they're losing their authority. They're getting their lunch handed to them on what used to be an easy way to make money because they don't know where to go to even advertise.
It's a really scary time for them, but it's a huge opportunity for us because we speak that language. There are a lot more people working in motion design that are closer to the target audiences and know what to make for them. So, there's an incredible opportunity to create trust now from the people making it to the people who need it. At the same time, the amount - I don't call them screens anymore - but the number of canvases available to us, is big and only getting bigger. It's going to skyrocket in the next four to five years. Places that our work is going to live and need our kind of agency, our understanding is going to just skyrocket. So I think it's an awesome, but difficult, time while we're trying to figure it out. The opportunities are huge.
“this is the one creative arts industry that I can think of where we put so much time into the work, but the amount of time that the work exists is negligible.”
Mack Garrison:
You bring a really good point on the medium and how motion design lives in the world. I think for a while it's been relatively consistent on what the programs you need to know are to generate the content. Whether it's Maya, Cinema 4D, After Effects, whatever. But we're on the precipice of all this new technology. There’s this perpetual learning that you need to do. A lot of people have preached about being good at one specific thing while the jack of all trades-type person, the generalist, is kind of dying. But I see that coming back because of all the new technology that's coming out. I think the success of a future motion designer is someone that is flexible and can be an avid, nimble learner when trying to adapt to these new things.
“there are just enough people now who've been in our industry that are either desperate for a community or they’re looking for the next step. people want to see their work recognized.”
Ryan Summers:
I agree. Motion design used to mean it was the umbrella for anything that moved, right? So it meant photography, it meant still frame, it meant videography. It meant knowing typography. It meant knowing hand skills, collage, 2D animation, 3D animation. And no one ever expected anyone to know all of those things. That's why teams were so interesting, and that's why each studio had a specific signature. You would go to Digital Kitchen because they had this very cinematographic style, but it wasn't very graphics-oriented, it was editorial. Or you’d go to Imaginary Forces for another look. Then there might be two or three studios that did high-end 3D, but they wouldn't be the people you'd go to for 2D animation. Now, everything has solidified around, “it's going to be done in After Effects, it's going to be done in Cinema 4D if it's character animation, there are two styles of character animation if it's CG, it's going to look like it came out of Red Ship.”
Having constricted to a really specific definition of animation, to now exploding back into what it used to be; where motion design is the overarching umbrella, where you can do anything to make anything move. The tools that were inaccessible in the 90s and the early 2000s now everyone has access to. Not just software, but access to cameras in a way we never had access to before. You can work with editors in a way you never used to be able to before. That's why I always talk about voice and vision being as important as your established relationships and the hardware or software that you use. That being said, I do think there's going to be a demand for people who have a specific way of seeing things or a specific way of making things look.
Mack Garrison:
That's a really good point. I've even been guilty of it myself. You get that project request that comes in and it's a certain type of client. For us, we deal with a lot of IT stuff. So it's like, okay, here are some examples of other videos that have been made, that probably fall into exactly what this should be. Right? And it's a safe play. I think what ends up happening is a cycle effect where someone comes up with a style. That style gets recycled around by everyone in the industry. People like it, so we keep pushing it forward. It's safe.
What ends up happening is when we're looking for inspiration, we tend to look only at what other videos are being made. What the top people are making right now. So limiting, right? So, there's not that much diversity in the variety of work that’s being made. Whereas I felt like to your point in the 90s when people were still experimenting, there wasn't a right way because there was so much still left to figure out. Work was constantly being evolved. That's what I am excited about with this technology growth. Hopefully, it will break us away from this reuse cycle.
Style frame from “Pokemon — BREAKTHROUGH.” Animated by Ryan Summers.
Mack Garrison:
What advice would you give for someone trying to push away from having a set style? What are some things folks should be doing to try to push that innovation?
Ryan Summers:
I think the bottom line is just allowing yourself to do it. Maybe this is me being too personal, but actively allowing yourself to realize that in this career, it's okay to be a capital-A artist. I don't think there are a lot of people who feel like they've been permitted to say that. Some people are like, "Oh, I work in cinema," or, "I'm an after effects animator." But I don't think most spend their days thinking about, "Oh, I want to say this about the world," or "I'm interested in this look that I found from this photographer from the 60s, how can I take that and work with that methodology in Redshift, or 3D?"
For example, most people in 3D right now over-light everything. It's the same thing that used to happen in early CD animation for feature films where people were like, “I have to build all this stuff, then I have to texture everything, and then I have to light it so that when I light it I need to show everything that I made, because otherwise, why would I ever have made all that stuff?” And it wasn't until someone like Roger Deacon came into feature animation and asked why everything is over-lighted? If you're doing this in a feature film, you would only put the light where you want people to look. You had only used lighting to make people feel a certain way. All of a sudden with "How To Train Your Dragon" and "Wally" and the many films after that, by bringing in real-world cinematographers, people started using the tools in a way that allowed them to portray the emotions that they wanted to express.
Ryan Summers:
That's just one example, but it was because people who were looking for software-based solutions finally allowed the art to creep back in. That's the first step to all of it, right? You talked about the echo chamber, and the inspiration paralysis right now. There's so much going on and we're all responding to the same thing. For example, I’ll ask another designer who they like, and if somebody says, "Oh man, I love Ash Thorp." I'm like, "Okay, cool. Do you know why Ash Thorp is Ash Thorp? Go back and look at the three people he was inspired by and find out who those people were working with."
Ash Thorp loves Katsuhiro Otomo, the guy who created Akira. So go find other people that inspired Otomo. He loved Stanley Kubrick. Find out who Stanley Kubrick's cinematographer was and find out who those people started with and look back. Being able to present full references that no one else has, that's liberating. That's exciting. And it gives you an advantage.
Mack Garrison:
You're touching on something that has become a bit lost; the whole research side of things. It's a constant balance between art and design. We design something for someone for a purpose...to get them to like it. At the same time, the art is an evolution of what we would like. It has been a mix of different styles, with different periods over the years. I think, as opposed to some traditional mediums where people would study various periods and have that art history knowledge to build off of, a lot of what we do is being condensed to a week, a few days, or a 24-hour period to come up with an idea for a piece.
Rather than looking back in a nontraditional way of research for what could be done or looking back at periods that can echo a client’s sentiment for something, we go to Vimeo and we look at what's on there. One of the things that we should advocate for now is more education in some of the art periods themselves. Look back in history to what you're talking about. Who are other people inspired by, what was their history, what were they inspired by about that history?
Ryan Summers:
And that's why I think, allowing yourself to say, “I'm an artist,” means that even if you did...let's say Dash gets some call tomorrow from Marvel for their next movie, like "Black Panther 2."
Mack Garrison:
Yeah, sign me up.
Ryan Summers:
Sure. Right? But the problem is you have to have the pitch in by Friday. Or, let's say Monday because we have a weekend. If you aren't thinking like an artist and you don't have interests outside of motion design, the only thing you can do in that amount of time is two things. Either A, "What do I know that the software can give me right now and solve for that?" Or B, "What do I know everybody else is doing that I know somebody else has made so I can figure out how to do it? And let's do a variant of that.”
Ryan Summers:
But if you’re thinking as an artist, the time that you've spent to create a pitch, the time needed to show what you're inspired by, isn't based on the time you're given when initially assigned the project. It's based on how long you’ve spent thinking for the last seven years about things that interest you; things that you love, things that you don't know anything about but catch your eye. So if you think as an artist, you're always thinking about these things. Even if you are only given a two-day turnaround, the artist who was like, "You know what, I love macro photography, but I also love textiles and fashion. And you know what else? There's something interesting about AR in terms of how people interact with technology."
So, all of a sudden when a client says, "We need a teacher that looks like it's influenced by alien technology and we need it in two days," you have a wealth of ideas to pull from. Allow yourself to be an artist. All commercial artists still have personal projects that they want to do, and that's what feeds into the work they do when hired by others. Then, the for-hire work hopefully gives them enough money and time to be able to go and reinvest that back into a personal project. We've been so detached from that. People are being taught that deeming yourself an artist or saying that you have personal projects, is like a dirty word. You're being selfish or you're taking money away from your company and I believe that couldn't be further from the truth.
“the bottom line is just allowing yourself to do it...actively allowing yourself to realize that in this career, it's okay to be a capital-A artist.”
Mack Garrison:
Oh, I love it. That's a great description. I think we've lost a little bit of that art form. Or it's been commercialized to the point where you're just doing internal art projects that look good for the brand. So you're starting to cater your art to the masses as opposed to just experimenting and trying new things. All the while building that library of knowledge in the back of your head.
To change the subject, one of the things we talked about in the very beginning was moving into freelance, the importance of community, and finding a group of people. With you doing School of Motion, I know you will echo the sentiment on how great and connected our industry is. We're both fortunate to have found ourselves in an industry that's so welcoming and helpful. Do you think that's one of the reasons why festivals have started?
Ryan Summers:
I think it's a direct reaction to all the stuff we've talked about. This has been a nascent industry that is finally starting to grow up. I asked at Camp MoGraph, "Who feels like an impostor?" Everyone raised their hand and I said, "That's cool. That's a good thing because none of us have made it through an entire career arc yet. We're all imposters. We're all trying to figure it out." There are just enough people now who've been in our industry that are either desperate for a community or they’re looking for the next step. People want to see their work recognized, right?
This is the one creative arts industry that I can think of where we put so much time into the work, but the amount of time that the work exists is negligible. We make stuff that is so difficult to make in such a short amount of time, in really inventive ways, yet we throw the pipeline away and start all over again on the next one. It's sad to think about. And every other creative arts industry recognizes the work being done in such a special way.
Ryan Summers:
Motionographer awards and ceremonies, for me, are not just about highlighting who is the best. They’re to show people that our work exists beyond being used as marketing material for a client. The systemic nature of our work causes a lot of the awful psychological problems we've started to see. People are burnt out, scared. People don't know what to do next. They’re leaving the industry because they don't feel fulfilled. I think having award shows and the awards themselves aren't that important, but the byproduct of them is. Even more important is the festivals, where people are getting together and we're not talking about software or how to make the next hot look. We're talking about what it's like to be in an industry working together as artists. That's what's awesome.
Mack Garrison:
You hit it on the head there. When we had the idea of doing the dash bash, a lot of that originated from those early conferences we went to and how enjoyable it was to meet people in the industry that are exactly like you. Blend did their first conference about a month after we started Dash. When we went, there were all these superstars that we looked up to. For us, man, these were our heroes, these were the people we wanted to be like. All of a sudden we got to recognize that they're just people like ourselves. You can go up and have these great conversations.
That's the biggest thing that I tell people. When they go to these conferences, whether it's the Dash Bash or anything else, don't go in there and just be handing out business cards. Get to know people, become their friends. Ultimately, people want to work with who they like, right? So if you have these great friendships, then naturally the work is going to come from them. Take the time to just hang out and connect in what can sometimes be a very solitary industry.
Ryan Summers:
I always say I hate the phrase networking because I don't think it’s accurate. When you go to those things, you're making friends; you're finding community. Like-minded people. Maybe you're looking for a mentor? And that's what I love about Dash. It reminds me of when I hear stories from the people who went to the first couple of Comic-Cons for the comic book industry when it was just in a basement of a hotel somewhere. It was so cool to sit and just talk to other people who settled in at a drawing table. Right? Just slaving away at comic book pages.
Mack Garrison:
We're all just in it together. Trying to figure it out. I love it. That's a really good point to end on. Let me ask you this. Have you given any more thought to the workshop itself? Anything you want to tease the public with?
Ryan Summers:
Absolutely. I get asked all the time by people about what their next steps should be, and a lot of times people think they want to be an art director, or they ask how to become a creative director. A lot of times it's surprising what that job entails. It can be very divorced from all the work you've done up until the point you asked that question. Just because you're an amazing animator, it seems like people get pushed into the direction of an art director. But you don't end up animating all that much. I hope to be able to create some type of environment where people can start to understand what it means to be an art or creative director; an interactive slice-of-life insight. So that's my tea.
Style frame from “Jump the Line - Starbucks.” Animated by Ryan Summers.
Mack Garrison:
Awesome, man. I'm excited about it. I'm going to be in attendance with my notepad out taking notes.
Ryan Summers:
Awesome. It's very cool. Very cool.
Mack Garrison:
Thank you so much for taking the time. I know with everything going on, everyone working from home, I appreciate it. This has just been a blast, just catching up a little. We’ve got to do this more often.
“...there's no real magic into how this stuff gets done anymore, other than the people.”
Ryan Summers:
Definitely, man. Thanks so much for reaching out. And I'm super excited. All this stuff will get itself figured out by September, for sure. I think it's going to get a little worse than it is right now, and it's going to be a little weird because we're not used to it. But if everybody's taking it as seriously as it seems like it is, I think we'll be okay.
Mack Garrison:
I know man. I feel the same way. Be smart right now so it's not a problem later on.
Ryan Summers:
Will do. I appreciate it. Thanks for calling.
Mack Garrison:
Yeah, absolutely, Ryan. Talk soon, man. Stay safe. Don't touch anything.
Ryan Summers:
Yeah. You too. Take it easy. Bye.
Takeover Tuesday with Angelica Baini
Q&A with Angelica Baini, a Multidisciplinary Designer and Art Director working in Los Angeles.
Q&A with Angelica Baini.
Read time: 10min
Madison Caprara:
Hey, Angelica! Can you give us a little introduction to who you are and what work you do?
Angelica Baini:
I am a Designer, Motion Designer, and Art Director, currently living in Los Angeles. I moved here in 2017 from the 305 - Miami. When I was in Miami, I was working at Univision for their explainer department at Fusion.tv. I started as an intern, eventually moving my way up to overseeing many of the works that came from there. Then, I got an opportunity to work at BuzzFeed LA, after which I went to work in social media advertisement, but finally decided it was time for me to go freelance.
Madison Caprara:
Miami! Tell us about your upbringing. When did you start gravitating to the art and design industry?
Angelica Baini:
Originally, I was born in a small town in Italy and came to Miami when I was four years old. My mom is Nicaraguan, so there are many influences in my personal art that stem from both cultures: Classical and Contemporary, Magical Surrealism, and then of course Art Deco which is huge in Miami. I think I was drawn to art because I was a lonely child. I was always occupying my mind with drawing and creating.
Growing up in Miami, I got into design after being exposed to the graffiti that I would see on highways and overpasses. When I was about 12 years old, I would try to replicate those letterforms and make custom drawings for my friends' binders in school. That eventually led me to the art of Graphic Design. There’s a book called Fadings: Graffiti to Design, Illustration, and More. It really changed my life. I went to New World School of the Arts for Graphic Design but ended up double majoring in Motion Design after discovering Vimeo and Art of the Title.
Madison Caprara:
Now, looking at your personal style, it seems that you lean into 3D typography work. What attracted you to it?
Angelica Baini:
When I work with typography, I see a whole story developing in my head revolving around type. I think about mood, time period, and feeling. In terms of pushing my typography in a 3D direction, I have always loved experimenting and have been using Cinema 4D for quite some time. It just felt natural to create these stories in a new medium. Recently, I’ve been messing around with the Oculus Rift so pretty soon maybe you all will see me push towards a virtual reality direction….that’s if I stop playing a million rounds of Beat Saber, of course.
Madison Caprara:
I have to ask, do you hate Helvetica?
Angelica Baini:
I actually quite enjoy the font, I think I lean more towards Neue Helvetica Pro 93 Extended Black. It’s bold and I like it! The font I hate the most is Myriad Pro, when it just shows up on my screen screaming that a font is missing, it feels like it’s mocking me.
Madison Caprara:
Century Gothic or Verdana are my go-to’s. I’m not sure what that says about me.
Is there anything in particular that stands out as instrumental to your education and growth as a type designer? Maybe a person, course, or another resource?
Angelica Baini:
As a Type Designer, I was mostly self-taught when creating fonts. I picked up this book called Designing Type which had very good fundamentals on what to do and what not to do for type. From there I started learning Glyphs App which had a lot of great tutorials on the site. It led me to create my first font, MARINA.
Madison Caprara:
It’s still really hard for me to wrap my head around the fact that people such as yourself create completely new typefaces.
Let’s pivot over into your art direction! What has been one of the most challenging things you’ve experienced as an Art Director?
Angelica Baini:
I have always valued quality over quantity, but with social media, quantity often is the priority. It doesn’t leave a lot of space for experimentation or solving things in effective, beautiful ways. Also, I think art direction has a different meaning to different people. Some people view it as pitching and copywriting, but for me, it’s all about concepting visually. That’s where I prefer to put my effort!
Madison Caprara:
Speaking on visual conception, tell us a bit about your creative process. How long does it usually take to create and execute once you have an idea?
Angelica Baini:
In my personal work, once I have an idea I love gathering a lot of reference images. I go all out with the Pinterest boards! If I am building a simple 3D scene it can take a couple of days, but if I decide to make a full animation, it can take a week or longer because of rendering, etc. Octane is a huge helper. For making custom fonts, the longest I’ve taken is six months. That might sound long, but large font families can take years! I get obsessive with the kerning, spacing, and adding extra glyphs. Because I’m now freelancing, sometimes I’m booked on shorter projects. For those projects, I have to think a lot more quickly.
Madison Caprara:
And do you primarily work solo? Have you had any collaborative projects?
Angelica Baini:
Unfortunately because of the pandemic, I am working mostly on my own but I definitely love collaboration. I think in the past when I was working on explainers, it was very collaborative; working back and forth with scriptwriters, design, and animation. With my freelance work, the projects are mostly bigger productions, so they require a lot of collaboration.
In terms of personal projects, I love to collaborate with friends and other artists. I have an amazing group of art school friends, and we’ve done a few short films and comics. Lately, since being stuck at home, I balance a lot of different ideas with my partner who does motion and art direction as well. It’s been helpful to get a quick second opinion.
Madison Caprara:
It’s always great when you have that support system of like-minded people backing you up.
What do you love most about your field of work?
Angelica Baini:
What I love is that I’ve been able to jump on a variety of different projects throughout different industries. I’ve been able to work in news, social, gaming, etc. Along the way, I have met so many great people who have inspired me.
Madison Caprara:
On the flip side, are there are any negative traits or attitudes within the industry that you would like to see change?
Angelica Baini:
Yeah, the industry is still very much male-dominated. I hope to see a better balance. I definitely think there should be more opportunities given to BIPOC, Women, Queer, Gender-expansive people! We need to hear different stories and learn from other leaders.
Also, 3D in general is a field that is very tough to get into because of the expenses of the programs and equipment. It’s very costly. I would like to see it be more accessible and easier for others to break into.
Madison Caprara:
So, accessibility and inclusion!
From your vantage point, where do you see the future of this industry heading?
Angelica Baini:
Ultimately, I see art and design heading in the direction of creating with compassion and empathy in mind. Designing for good, and better causes. Working for companies that have the same values as you do.
Madison Caprara:
I love that for us!
Pivoting back to your creating process, where do you usually go for inspiration?
Angelica Baini:
As much as I love going to the internet to browse for hours - mood boarding - I think the best inspiration I get is when I take a break and go outside for a walk or just do something else. Lately, I’ve been really interested in making my own textures for some of my 3D pieces. I’ve been going out and photographing things. When I am outside, I start to notice so many details that I don’t usually notice when my vision is being consumed by the computer.
Madison Caprara:
And is there anything special we can look forward to seeing from you in the near future?
Angelica Baini:
Definitely! I am thinking about working in Substance Painter and expanding what I learned there into a short film soon. I’m really looking forward to collaborating with others on this!
Madison Caprara:
It was great getting to know you, Angelica! Wrapping up, do you have any closing advice or statements you’d like to share with the readers?
Angelica Baini:
From experience, anxiety would always hold me back from jumping into things that made me uncomfortable. It is in that discomfort where I have found growth. Moving to LA was very tough the first couple of years, I’m not going to lie. Here, finding a reasonably priced apartment with a parking spot and AC is a luxury! If you all choose to dive into something, it can be hard in the beginning, but things will work out. It’s also important to try to build your community of artists because ultimately they will help support you to continually learn, grow, and push yourself.
Q&A with Dash Bash Speaker, Jorge Canedo
dash’s, Mack Garrison, had a chat with Ordinary Folk’s owner and creative director, Jorge Rolando Canedo Estrada. Read on to get his take on starting a studio, portfolio vs. paying projects, and the importance of industry camaraderie.
Q&A with Jorge Canedo
Read time: 15min
Mack Garrison:
So maybe a good place to start would be, how did you get into Ordinary Folk? Where did Ordinary Folk originate from? Were you always thinking about wanting to start a studio?
Jorge Canedo:
I had the idea before I went to school. I had this bug in me that it would be cool to start something from the ground up. It never became real until after having had the experience of working at different studios. I worked at Buck, and then Giant Ant. Afterward, I decided that I was going to go freelance and got the chance to work with a bunch of other studios. Those experiences solidified my desire to start my own.
I didn't have a name for us for a long time. Then, I was reading a book and the last chapter talked about our role in the world. It talked about how people try to make it feel like making designs is going to change the world when in reality they won’t. At the end of the day, it's what you do, how you do it, and who you do it with that matters. Then, he quoted Gandalf. Something to the effect of, “it's the small deeds of ordinary folk that make a real difference.”
Jorge Canedo:
I was working as an Ordinary Folk incorporation for some time, but it was just me. Then we had a big project come in and I was like, "Oh, I could use some help." So I brought Victor in on a six-month contract. That six-month contract became a year contract. The year contract became a year and a half contract, but I still hadn't hired him because I was just so scared. Around that time, a lot of things fell into place. One person that I had worked with on other projects as a client said, "Hey if you ever need help producing, let me know." That was Stefan.
Shortly after, his department got dissolved so he was looking for a job. His last day was on a Friday, and his first day with us was the next Monday. Around the same time, Greg decided to come and visit out of nowhere. We had started talking seriously about hiring more people, so we hired Greg, hired Victor finally, and then decided to launch the studio.
Mack Garrison:
Wow, it sounds like it all happened pretty quickly. There was planning and thought, but it sort of was like, “all right, now's the time.” Do you feel like that's accurate? That it just came together?
Jorge Canedo:
I think so. It was stewing in my brain for a couple of years. Then in six months, we were doing the thing.
Mack Garrison:
How do you feel all of your past experiences have influenced what you're currently doing at the studio?
Jorge Canedo:
If I hadn't had the opportunity, if Jay wasn't as open as he was when allowing me into the core team of Giant Ant; seeing behind the scenes, and even being a part of more executive decisions. Without that experience, I wouldn't have felt as comfortable as I was to go on my own.
Ordinary Folk’s, “School of Motion: Manifesto.”
Mack Garrison:
When you started Ordinary Folk, how much of a plan was there around your work culture? Was that something you were cognizant of as you were starting to build it with the team that you wanted to bring in there? Or, did it naturally happen?
Jorge Canedo:
I was very, very conscious about it. Mostly because at the time I started Ordinary Folk, we had just had our second child. I knew that I wanted it to be a place where I could drop my kids off at school, come to work, and then be home for dinner-type thing. A place where if we wanted to do personal projects, we could just carve some time during the eight-hour day and make it happen.
A lot of times we will say no to projects because we know that they’re going to eat our souls. Or sometimes as a team, we will do these projects, but after we're going to do a whole bunch of other fun things or we'll close the studio for a week so that everyone can make up the time with their families. We do try to be family-oriented, and that doesn't just apply to our own, but also to us treating each other as a family. We're in it together. I try to keep it as close as possible. So in many ways, that dictates the people that we work with.
Mack Garrison:
One of the things that constantly surprises me is just how many new things pop up that I would never have accounted for in running a studio. You think you have a general idea of what's coming and what to plan for, but then there's always something unexpected. Is there anything that sticks out to you on your anniversary of Ordinary Folk that was surprising?
Jorge Canedo:
Yeah, the part that sometimes is hidden is dealing with people. Each person has a different way of taking feedback, responding to a brief, or solving a problem. All those things are so individual-specific. Being a good creative director at A studio doesn't necessarily mean that I'm going to be a good creative director at ANY studio. It's knowing how to properly direct a specific person on your team. Learning how different it is with each person, each individual, and each personality is probably one of the biggest surprises I'd say in the work-sphere.
Mack Garrison:
That's interesting.
Jorge Canedo:
Another thing has been trying to understand our holes and how to go about filling them smartly. There's been a temptation for us to bring in a bunch of animators for a single project. That struggle to keep the culture, keep the team small, and not to get too much into the new, shiny thing is always an effort.
Mack Garrison:
Definitely. For us it’s been, how do you scale your creative without losing the "it" factor? How much do you balance? Do you guys find yourself saying no to a lot of projects? Or, if the client is the right fit with the right budget, do you guys make it work?
Jorge Canedo:
We do say no a lot. Honestly, most no’s have been because of timelines. We try to keep a healthy work-life balance. If they ask us, "can you do it in three weeks," we'll try to push to do it in five weeks. Sometimes that happens, sometimes it doesn't, which means that we're fairly booked for one to two months in advance. Unless it's something incredible that we all want to do, generally the timeline doesn't work so we have to say, no.
That being said, I think I try to involve everybody as much as possible before we say yes to a project. Is it creatively fulfilling? Is it something everybody believes in? Does it benefit us financially? If we say, "okay, this project is going to be terrible, but we're going to be done with it in two weeks and it's going to be really, really profitable." And by terrible, I mean boring.
“it's the small deeds of ordinary folk that make a real difference.”
Mack Garrison:
...bad?
Jorge Canedo:
Just, very simple stuff that we could do in our sleep-type thing. When everybody seems to be on board with it, then we do it. On the other hand, this project came in and it was a pitch. We generally have a rule of no pitching. The team seemed to be okay with doing it and they were willing to sacrifice the extra time. But I wasn't. There were a lot of red flags that the team maybe couldn't see, from a production point of view. For example, the way they were managing communication.
I was like, "You know what? Even though this could be really cool, I think the safe bet is to stick to the projects we have and try to protect the team from this and ourselves." So, we ended up passing on it, and I'm not going to lie, it hurts. I feel like it could've been awesome, but you have to make the right choices. The hard choices.
Mack Garrison:
I find that one of the lessons that I've learned in the four years of doing dash is that I felt so obliged to say, yes, in the very beginning. As we've grown, I felt more comfortable saying, no. It's a hard thing to do, we still struggle. We have those same things you're talking about where it's like, “this is a cool project, but is it pressing our timelines? Is it pressing our process and how we go about stuff?” But, even when you say, no, to those things, it's still in the back of your mind.
You brought up something that I think is interesting; the balance of projects that pay the bills and keep the lights on for the studio versus the projects that are great portfolio pieces. Do you feel like you have a good grasp on the percentage of the work you're taking on throughout the year that just keeps the lights on, as opposed to the percentage of work that you feel like is portfolio-worthy?
“Epic;” partnership with Stephen McCaskell.
Jorge Canedo:
That's a great question. Because we've intentionally kept it small, we've been able to be picky. It's a blessing that we can say no to projects. A privilege that I don't take for granted, and it's a privilege that I feel like we may not always have. But because of that, I feel like we're still in the honeymoon phase. If there’s been a piece that we haven't been able to show, it's because the client hasn't let us. But everything else has pretty much made it into our portfolio.
Mack Garrison:
That’s great.
Jorge Canedo:
The only thing that we haven't shown is NDA stuff. This was for Google, or whoever. It can only live once, and once it's viewed it needs to be burned after reading. It's a shame because we were really happy with them. But other than that, I would say about 90% of our pieces have made it into a portfolio.
Mack Garrison:
That's fantastic.
You've brought up something I think is interesting. It's something I know I’ve struggled with in certain moments: when you're working with a big client and they have certain stipulations where they don't want you to show the project. Do you guys add a fee to that? Have you gotten any advice on how to handle a project when it's like that?
“being a creative director at A studio doesn't necessarily mean that I'm going to be a good creative director at ANY studio.”
Jorge Canedo:
Yeah, we're trying to set up a system for that, because more and more have been. We have a list of questions that we send before saying yes to any project. Are we going to be able to say that we did it? If not, then there's a conversation that it's going to cost you X more. We don't have a percentage necessarily because it's very much case-by-case. But even if we can't show it, we're going to put all of our efforts into it. In the end, we're making it for you.
Mack Garrison:
It's such a shame because our industry is so visual, and a lot of our work comes from what people are able to see in our portfolios. For the most part, clients only hire for what they can see, which is always a struggle.
But that's an interesting point. Let's pivot the conversation a little bit. Coming off of Blend Fest, I felt like you went from the talk of the town on where you wanted to go, and inspired us of course to do the dash bash. But I'm also seeing Camp MoGraph popping up, you have Half Rez in Chicago, I think I may have even seen that F5 is coming back. Why do you think there's such a resurgence in the popularity of these motion festivals? What do you think it is that gets people so excited?
Jorge Canedo:
That's an excellent question. I've talked with people in different industries; the film industry, the editing industry, even the gaming industry. There's something special about the motion design industry, in which it started with such a basic entry-level. You can watch a video tutorial and start moving stuff. It makes people connected online and it builds the foundation of a community that I dare to say is unlike any other; where people are very open, and willing to help each other out, answering questions, sharing things, and complimenting each other. That's what we saw on Vimeo. It’s how everybody got to know each other and see each other's work. So, it's just a natural consequence.
The way I see it, we're hanging out online. We might as well do it in real life. It's a reminder of why we do it, to get people excited again about what got them interested in motion design in the first place. All these various things. There's Mouvo, there's NodeFest, and there's so many more happening all over the world. It's great to see now. This is not just a Blend thing, this is a community mentality because we want to get together and see people's work. I don't think that's going to go away.
Mack Garrison:
I love it. Honestly, for us at least, dash started, let's see, what year was the first Blend Fest?
Jorge Canedo:
2005. No, 2015.
“there's something special about the motion design industry...you can watch a video tutorial and start moving stuff. it makes people connected online and builds the foundation of a community that I dare to say is unlike any other.”
Mack Garrison:
It was like September 2015 right? So, dash started in October of 2015. We were one month in when we went to Blend Fest. I remember as an upcoming studio in the middle of Raleigh, North Carolina, the middle of nowhere for most folks, it was so important to me to be able to go somewhere and connect with all these people that I'd known online but had no idea what they looked like. To be able to get their advice.
It was an incredibly helpful thing for an up-and-coming studio. Which is, of course, one of the reasons why we wanted to put this on. To give back to the community. As a final question before we can let you get out of here, after putting on Blend Fest for the last five years or so, what advice would you give for the dash bash that we should consider as we're finishing up our planning?
Jorge Canedo:
Just one?
Mack Garrison:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Or, maybe a couple of key takes. Highlights, not to scare us.
Jorge Canedo:
I think that one thing that we keep remembering is that ultimately it's not really about networking. It's not about your speakers. Don’t get me wrong, those are important things. In some ways, those are your selling points. But, at the end of the day when you're there, it's about the people; making the people feel special. Be worried about the experience of someone coming in. How do they feel? How do they feel they’re being treated, like we're happy that they're there? Think of it as a party and you're the host, more so than you’re creating this networking event where you're going to come out with free contacts and merch.
Focus on the people. Like the way you speak of your studio; the culture, being a people-center. Bring that to the festival. That is one of the main things that Teresa, who is the other brain behind Blend, always cared about. Of course it's also one of the things that Claudio and Sander focus on, the four of us always tried to make the festival one we would love to attend. Another thing I keep going back to again and again is to make sure people remember the inspiring talks. Unfortunately, that's not the first thing people talk about when they experience Blend. They're talking about, "dude we had waffles and there was a band at the end!"
Mack Garrison:
Right!
Ordinary Folk’s, “Keep Looking,” for client, Desiring God.
Jorge Canedo:
Little things like that make people feel special, and I think that's one thing that I would say is very important. Be a good host.
Mack Garrison:
That's a good takeaway. We're excited about what's going to come this September. I’m looking forward to hanging out with you and everyone else who descends on Raleigh. Man, it's going to be a lot of fun. Well, Jorge, I can't thank you enough for hopping on a quick call with us for the interview.
Jorge Canedo:
It's worth it, man. I'm excited. I think you guys will do an awesome job, and I'm very excited for you guys.
Mack Garrison:
Awesome, thanks so much, Jorge. Say hey to the studio for us.
Jorge Canedo:
Will do. Bye.
Mack Garrison:
All right. See you, buddy. Bye.
A collection of some of Ordinary Folk’s favorite moments from their favorite projects thus far. Original music by Ambrose Yu
Things To Do In Raleigh, Part Two
We hear that good things come in pairs. You’ll have an entire weekend to romp around our city this September, make sure you do it like a true Raleigh local.
Find our first list here.
A list of cool Raleigh to do’s.
Read time: 10min
(1) Grab a bite…
Address:
413 Glenwood Ave, Raleigh, NC 27603
Details:
“The Cortez is a fresh seafood and small plates experience with a freshly kept selection of tropical cocktails that draw on their food memories travels through the years and Mexican-American heritage.”
Address:
428 S McDowell St, Raleigh, NC 27601
Details:
“Poole'side Pies specializes in Neapolitan-style pizza. Cooked in their 6,000-pound, Marra Forni wood-fired oven, every Poole'side pizza is crafted using local flour, house-made mozzarella, and organic Bianco DiNapoli tomatoes. Yet while they're pretty serious about their pizza technique, their decor is all about the laid-back vacation vibes-an airy, swimming pool-themed space marked by sky blue banquettes and a 52-foot skylight. Pair it all with a refreshing spritz, or a pour from the Italian-heavy wine list.”
Address:
603 W Morgan St, Raleigh, NC 27603
Details:
“A contemporary, stylish eatery featuring easy-going international dishes, cocktails, and a relaxed vibe..”
Address:
222 S Blount St, Raleigh, NC 27601
Details:
“Bida Manda is a thoughtful gathering place celebrating the diverse food traditions and culture of Laos. The Sanskrit ceremonial term for father and mother, Bida Manda, was created out of the deep love and appreciation of food and its power to bring people together.”
Address:
411 W Morgan St, Raleigh, NC 27603
Details:
“Morgan Street Food Hall is a new lifestyle dining concept; not to be confused with a food court. It features local eateries and restaurants as well as local food retailers. Morgan Street Food Hall introduces the concept of cross meal ordering, where different meals are enjoyed in a shared seating area.”
Address:
315 Blake St, Raleigh, NC 27601
Details:
“A lively, new Japanese restaurant and sushi bar putting modern spins on Japanese classics. Stop in for creative sushi rolls, bento boxes, and other Japanese eats in modern surrounds.”
(2) Buy a round (or two)…
Address:
319 W Davie St, Raleigh, NC 27601
Details:
“Focusing on craft beer and cultivating an active lifestyle in the community, Crank Arm Brewing is a locally owned brewery in downtown Raleigh, NC.”
Address:
201 W Martin St, Raleigh, NC 27601
Details:
“A chef's barroom and restaurant. One part Whiskey bar, one part world-class Southern kitchen born in downtown Raleigh, NC.”
Address:
222 Glenwood Ave, Raleigh, NC 27603
Details:
“A place where you can find farm-to-table creations with the Latin American roots of their chef’s, mind-blowing cocktails. Their menu is designed to share, providing a unique and affordable experience full of good memorable moments.”
Address:
330 West Davie Street, Raleigh, NC 27601
Details:
“Located in Raleigh’s famous downtown Warehouse District, this bar and arcade is home to hundreds of arcade-style games, including 70+ classic and modern arcade cabinets, over a dozen pinball machines, and 175+ console games. They have a full liquor bar with 24 rotating craft drafts.
Address:
614 Glenwood Ave, Raleigh, NC 27603
Details:
“A rustic-chic bar offering 350+ beers on tap and modern comfort fare in a bi-level space with a patio. Fun Fact: they’re in the Guinness World Records for having the largest selection of draft beers available in a single restaurant.”
Address:
616 St Marys St, Raleigh, NC 27605
Details:
“Cocktails, hookah, and apps. Enough said.”
(3) Have a sweet tooth..?
Address:
327 W Davie St, Raleigh, NC 27601
Details:
“An artisan chocolatier offering self-guided tours, plus a cafe for chocolate bars, bonbons, and espresso.”
Address:
104 Glenwood Ave, Raleigh, NC 27603
Details:
“A cozy, stylish bakery whipping up bespoke cakes, cupcakes, pastries, and espresso drinks.
Address:
2261 New Hope Church Rd, Raleigh, NC 27604
Details:
“La Horchateria was created to bring traditional Latin sweets with an American twist to the city of Raleigh. We recommend the mini concha ice cream sandwich and the churro sundae.”
Address:
3801 Hillsborough St, Raleigh, NC 27607
Details:
“A hip coffeehouse with baked goods, local art exhibits, and open-mike nights.”
Address:
500 E Davie St STE 107, Raleigh, NC 27601
Details:
“Benchwarmers Bagels makes great bagels using fresh-milled, pre-fermented heirloom grains, extended fermentation, and a wood-fired oven. Their spiced honey cream cheese is both literally and figuratively FIRE.”
(4) Get out there…
Address:
4601 Avent Ferry Rd, Raleigh, NC 27606
Details:
“Lake Johnson is a recreation area with 5.4 miles of trails around a lake, along with boat rentals, picnic areas, and fishing hubs.”
Address:
223 S West St, Raleigh, NC 27601
Details:
“A hidden gem in Raleigh, known for the best skyline views! Not only is it free to visit the Dillion, but you can also bring your own food and drinks (as long as no event is going on). Find the entrance right next to Barcelona Wine Bar’s patio. Take the elevator up to the 9th floor, walk through the public lobby, and enjoy the views.
Address:
8801 Glenwood Ave, Raleigh, NC 27617
Details:
“A state park that covers 5,599 acres nestled between the cities of Raleigh, Cary, and Durham. If you’re a hiker, trail runner, bicyclist, or equestrian, this is your place.”
Explore Downtown Raleigh
Details:
“Downtown Raleigh has tons of free things to do and see! This includes murals, museums, a free tour at the Capital, and Glenwood Sout.
If you’re looking for a good place to take a souvenir flick, some of our favorite city murals are:
407 Glenwood Ave, Raleigh, NC 27601
201 E Davie St, Raleigh, NC 27601
428 S McDowell St, Raleigh, NC 27601
310 S Harrington St, Raleigh, NC 27601
Find the full list of public art spots here.
Address:
126 E. Cabarrus St. Raleigh, NC
Details:
“If variety is the spice of life, then the Lincoln Theatre is serving up a lot of spice. This music venue hosts everything from local artists to cover bands. The tiered space guarantees you’ll be able to see the stage while having plenty of room to dance.”
(5) Shop local…
Address:
2402 Clark Ave, Raleigh, NC 27607
Details:
“Minimalist gold and brass jewelry, handmade by Sophie Wiseman-Floyd in Raleigh, NC.”
Address:
501 E Davie St, Raleigh, NC 27601
Details:
“North Carolina’s First Cocktail Bitters Company, established in 2012. Their cocktail bitters and shrub syrup concentrates are hand-crafted in small batches from 100% maceration in organic, non-GMO alcohol, with no glycerin, chemicals, or dyes. Glass pots or wood barrels are used exclusively in the storage and aging of their products.”
Address:
719 N Person St, Raleigh, NC 27604
Details:
“A small, independent bookstore in downtown Raleigh.”
Address:
18 Glenwood Ave, Raleigh, NC 27603
Details:
“Raleigh Vintage specializes in quality vintage clothing, home goods, and natural apothecary. They offer vintage for a modern, sustainable lifestyle.”
Address:
14 Glenwood Ave, Raleigh, NC 27603
Details:
“If you're dipping your toe in the vinyl pool or looking to complete your collection, this is the place for you. Sound Off carries a large stock of 12" LPs, 7" singles, and an always-changing selection of vintage receivers, amps, speakers, and turntables.”
Address:
1818 Oberlin Rd #103, Raleigh, NC 27608
Details:
“Cap the day off with a cap’. Idle Hour is a boutique coffee shop serving delicious coffee and sandwiches.”
Takeover Tuesday with Megan Pelto
Q&A with Megan Pelto, a freelance illustrator in Portland, Oregon.
Q&A with Megan Pelto.
Read time: 5min
Madison Caprara:
Hi, Megan! Thank you for taking the time to speak with me! Why don’t you tell us a little bit about yourself? How did you find yourself getting into the illustration game?
Megan Pelto:
Hi! I am a freelance illustrator, originally from Massachusetts but have moved around a lot while working on my career. I love hiking and getting outside, so if I am not drawing I’m usually somewhere outdoors. I have loved drawing my whole life and spent a lot of time, from elementary school through high school, creating art. I really gravitated towards illustration as I loved the storytelling aspect combined with drawing. I ended up majoring in Illustration at SCAD, but when I first chose that major I was still learning what I wanted to do with it.
Madison Caprara:
For those who may not be familiar, how would you go about describing your personal style?
Megan Pelto:
My style is pretty fun and combines simple shapes with chosen details. I like using different textured brushes and limited colors. Focusing on the outdoors and cozy scenes within my work is pretty standard for me, but I also feel like my style is constantly growing and changing! I used to work only traditionally, a lot of pencil drawings and paintings, so when I started to work mainly digitally at the end of college, my work shifted too.
Madison Caprara:
As technology continues to expand, do you believe there is still room in the game for those hand-drawn, or in your words, “traditional” illustrations, or is it all about the digital designs now?
Megan Pelto:
I think there will always be room for hand-drawn work. I am not sure how much so in the motion design industry, as a lot of projects do need things to be easier to animate and thus digital, but I know many artists who still do hand-drawn or a mixture of the two. That will always remain even if a lot of careers in animation or advertising tend to lean more towards the digital.
Madison Caprara:
I think I would have to agree with you, Megan.
Pivoting back to the topic of style, how important do you think it is to have a strong, recognizable aesthetic?
Megan Pelto:
I believe it can be a benefit but it is not a requirement. I have worked with amazing artists with a large range of styles. Some are super-specific, while others are skilled in a variety of areas. Being able to do both is a good skill to have, it takes a lot to have your own style but it also takes a lot to be able to jump into new styles for different projects! In my personal work, I have an overall style, in my client work, however, I work in a wide range of styles.
Madison Caprara:
It’s all about that adaptability!
Where are you based right now? Are you still in Massachusetts? Either way, what is the industry like there?
Megan Pelto:
I am based in Portland, OR, but I just relocated here from LA in March of this year. I had moved to Los Angeles to be able to work in the motion design industry. It was the necessary step to be able to work with all of the studios I admired. Now that I am in Portland, there is still a strong industry here but on a much smaller scale when compared to LA. I work remotely for the most part and hope to continue to do so moving forward so that I can work with studios both in Portland and beyond!
Madison Caprara:
You work primarily freelance now, correct? What has been your overall experience? Good? Bad?
Megan Pelto:
I have been working fully freelance since the summer of 2019. My experience has been really good, but it did take a lot of time and work to build up to that point. Prior to this, I did freelance for two years after graduating from SCAD in 2015. From 2017-2019 I was on staff at BUCK in LA for two years before transitioning back to freelance. I think freelancing in motion design is awesome, but I know it is also different than freelancing in other creative fields.
Madison Caprara:
From the two-plus years of experience you now have, do you think working as a freelancer is a suitable career path for a graduate just beginning their career, or would you suggest working for a larger company or agency first?
Megan Pelto:
I really think it can depend. When I graduated I wanted to try freelance right away, but that was hard to do. Though I had majored in Illustration, I took a motion design elective class my senior year and fell in love with that work. Prior to that, motion design had never been talked about or mentioned as a career path for illustrators and wasn’t well-known in my department. That may have changed since I graduated, however. I spent the majority of my time working on personal projects, while consistently contacting new people and researching opportunities.
After graduation, I had moved to Chicago and was looking for opportunities there. I ended up interning at Digital Kitchen for seven months which really helped me get some studio experience. It’s there that I learned from people what freelancing in motion design was like. I began freelancing after that but it was tough getting enough consistent work to feel comfortable, especially when having to afford to live in a large city.
Megan Pelto:
I had been freelancing for two years, hoping to break into the motion design industry. While I had had bookings with studios, things changed when I received a two-week freelance opportunity at BUCK LA. After that, I decided that I would move to Los Angeles to freelance and really pursue working with all of my dream studios. Shortly before my move I heard from BUCK and was offered an internship which led to being staff a few months after arriving in LA. Being on-staff at BUCK is what truly helped me take that next step, so I do strongly believe that working at a studio can ultimately help your freelance career. By having to illustrate every single day, I really saw self-improvement. I was working with amazing designers and ADs who helped my work grow. Also, it was pretty invaluable to meet people in person and form connections, which I find to be harder when working remotely or even when freelancing at a new place each week.
Madison Caprara:
Great advice all around. Do you have any other tidbits you would give to those just beginning their career?
Megan Pelto:
It’s not fun to hear, but I really encourage just giving it time. Be patient! Even though it was tough for two years before moving to LA, I was still able to freelance full time as an illustrator by being careful with money. Also, don’t hesitate to reach out to people in the field, most people are really nice and want to help! I have connected artists with studio internships and freelance work in the past and always strive to help, whether it be through advice or passing along an email. Always keep trying, I probably applied for jobs at BUCK at least four times before ever hearing back about a freelance job with them, so it's always worth it to keep pursuing even when you feel like you aren’t getting anywhere.
Madison Caprara:
In my experience, some of the best advice is the hardest to swallow.
So you went from studying at SCAD to working at BUCK, to now doing freelance work in 2021. With how crazy this past year has been, how does the external affect your art?
Megan Pelto:
It definitely affected my passion for creating personal work. I am really thankful that freelance work stayed just as busy, but the year certainly took a toll on my motivation. It was healthier for me to take a step back from personal work. I really value getting outside, so feeling a bit stuck in my hot LA apartment far away from any family was a hard year. Remember to take some pressure off of yourself. I let myself take more breaks and just focused on getting through. It was difficult, but I am grateful for being able to work and stay safe when many could not. My personal work hasn’t really picked up again yet but I think as things continue to improve, I’ll continue building motivation. Right now, all I want to do is be outside and I’m okay with that!
Madison Caprara:
And when you find that motivation hitting, where do you go for inspiration?
Megan Pelto:
Outside! Nature is my biggest inspiration. I love to draw the things I enjoy, like trees and cozy cups of coffee. Also, I am often inspired by other artists' work. I truly just love to draw, so sometimes that entails trying to come up with an idea just to have something to work on.
Madison Caprara:
Outside…I should’ve known!
Do you have a top three favorite illustrators list?
Megan Pelto:
I definitely don’t have a top three. I love so many illustrators' work and so many different genres. Often I tend to have favorite illustrations versus a single artist. I have all kinds of stuff saved on my phone and it’s made up of so many different types of creatives. My favorite work does usually come from motion design, be it the studios or individuals that work in the field, so much amazing work is made in this industry and I will always be grateful to be part of it.
Madison Caprara:
Looking forward, what does the rest of 2021 look like for you? Is there anything special we should be looking out for?
Megan Pelto:
I am keeping 2021 very open! I have worked on some really fun projects with places like oddfellows, BIEN, BUCK, Facebook, and SodaStream. I never know what work I will be able to share, so I am just excited for the fun projects I have had and will continue to work on this year. I am not making long-term work plans as I am leaving more free time to finally get to travel to see my family in Massachusetts.
I plan to head to the East Coast in July and then backpack with some of my family in the North Cascades in WA in August. I also am still super new to Portland so I am excited to continue to meet people here and explore all of it and try new hikes each month. Work is still important and I love what I do, but after last year, other things are my priority for 2021!
Madison Caprara:
Yes! I’ve noticed that the balance of work and life is a little skewed within this industry. More priority needs to be placed on the mental health upkeep of all you creatives out there.
Well, we’re reaching the end of our time, Megan. Do you have any closing points or statements you would like to share?
Megan Pelto:
Whenever possible, strive for a healthy work/life balance! Motion design is often 10a-7p which can be late hours compared to most jobs, so make sure to take time off or take a long walk on slower workdays. It’s good to put a lot into your work but put equal parts of that energy into your personal life as well.
Discussing the Evolution of the Animation Industry with TJ Kearney
We sat down with TJ Kearney, Global Director of Content at Work & Co. and former founding partner of oddfellows, to speak on the debate of being a generalist vs specialist, the growing importance of social media, and more!
Q&A with TJ Kearney
Read time: 20min
Mack Garrison:
I advise others, but I also need to listen to it myself. I was talking to someone the other day, a student, about how whatever you put up on your website is what people will ultimately hire you for. Advertise what it is you want to do. dash has done a really good job of defining a style that we're good at; colorful vector, snappy, bubbly-type animation. The problem is, we've started to notice that that's the only recurring work we're getting from people, but we can do a lot more.
So, one of our goals this year is to push into creating stuff that feels different than what's already on our portfolio. To try to say, "Hey look, yeah, we can knock this explainer video out of the park for you, but here are some other things that we can do as well."
TJ Kearney:
You and I were talking about this the other day. It doesn't matter how talented your studio is, even if you have crazy stuff on your reel that brought the client to you in the first place. They can still reach a point where they say, "Well, have you done this exact thing? Have you done animated food?" And you're like, "Of course I can do that, but I don't have it in my reel." That can be a deal-breaker. Sometimes people want to see that one exact thing.
As you said, you have this one style, so clients are only seeing that one style. We ran into that when I had a studio. We started only doing 3D, eventually, we started hiring cel animators. Suddenly, we couldn't win any 3D work because we had nothing to show. It’s something important to think about as you're curating; what you're putting out into the world. Make sure it's leading to the next thing, rather than just showing what you've already done in the past.
Mack Garrison:
How'd y'all get out of that? Was it just that emphasis and focus on creating new work that showed you could do a more diverse style?
TJ Kearney:
It was a mixture. In the beginning, we’d sneak it in wherever we could, even if it wasn't a part of what the client asked for. Then, a lot of it came down to personal projects and putting up work that aligned with what we wanted to do. I also think it was a result of how we built our staff.
We were 3D heavy in the beginning, but as we grew our staff, we started adding people that augmented that team and added to it. As a result, our aesthetic changed, and the work we started putting out reflected that. But then we almost went too far in the other direction where it's like, "Okay, well now we haven't touched 3D in six months plus, so now it's harder for us to sell in 3D." That's fine if you don't want to be doing that, but if you want to have a diverse range, then you have to be continually updating the work while making sure that you have a consistent flow of multiple types of work so that people can see what you’re capable of.
“it’s something important to think about as you're curating: what you're putting out into the world. make sure it's leading to the next thing, rather than just showing what you've already done in the past.”
Mack Garrison:
I've been surprised how much social media has started to influence our projects and the work we're landing. You mentioned posting little personal pieces or side projects to show what you're capable of doing. I feel we've been focused on just putting a lot of stuff out on social media for exposure within our communities so that people know who we are. It's impacted a lot of the clientele that follow us.
I can't tell you how many times I've gotten calls that have been like, "Oh, I saw this post that you guys put out the other day. It looks like it's the perfect fit for this project that we're working on. You want to talk about it?" I never thought that social media would have pivoted to a point where it has such a direct impact on our work.
TJ Kearney:
I try to keep in mind that the people who’re hiring you more often than not are the art and design directors. They're always pulling you for reference, and not necessarily just you, but also pulling from socials. Years ago, your only options were to go to a rep and see what the rep presented to you. Go to Motionographer. Go to Stash. Go to these places that were highlighting a select few. Now, the middleman has been cut out of that whole scenario. Art directors are looking at Instagram just as much as anybody else, and they're the target.
The trap there and the thing I get worried about is the pressure to constantly update your socials. What ends up happening is you put out a bunch of work more frequently, and it's not as high a caliber as it used to be. However, I lean more towards consistently updating while not feeling the pressure that you have to put something on every day or even every week. Once or twice a quarter is fine. Make sure you have a presence out there, but also make sure what you're putting out is differentiating you because of its higher quality.
Mack Garrison:
I feel the same trap of assimilating into a particular style. Things get saturated, as far as where people are trying to find inspiration. Work starts to look similar. You have a couple of big players that come out with something that looks relatively unique, then, all of a sudden, you get a million copycats that push in that direction. As an industry, that's one area that we can improve; pushing new avenues. Though, I do feel motion design is one of the few areas bridging this gap between all of the different fields. You have new technology coming out; people coming into it who have a background in code, graphic design, illustrators, designers. It's a hodgepodge of people that get into this field.
TJ Kearney:
That ties back to the social media posting everyone’s pulling from. You've got two or three different routes; you’ve got direct-to-client work, working with an agency involved as a middleman between you, or, you're working with a studio that you're running everything for them. You run into issues less with that third one. The other two have art directors that have been selling through to the client. Even if they're internal, they’ve been selling an aesthetic before you even get to the table. They've had weeks or months worth of conversations to get the budget unlocked. Usually, they’ve been pulling the same work that everybody else is. By that time, their higher-ups are already expecting something to look a certain way and it becomes that much harder for you to push.
Unfortunately, some of that gets taken out of your hands at the studio. A lot falls on your client relations; getting yourself up the food chain so that you're having that conversation early on before things are locked in. I think that this is where it gets interesting. Right? You've got studios - Golden Wolf is a great example - where they have an aesthetic and a theme. You know what you're buying into. Then, you have some more diverse studios. That's where you’ll get a broader spectrum to get hired. At the same time, they may come to you with a very clear direction before you even get your chance to put your stamp on it.
“25th Anniversary” — Cartoon Network
Mack Garrison:
100%. Even just saying, "Golden Wolf," everyone reading will picture exactly what that style of work is. I'm sure it's the same deal for the clients who want to hire them. It's like, "Well, we know we can get diversity in what we want our final project to be, but, in general, we want it to be in this style. So let's go to the best of the best who does that."
On the flip side, if you're more of a generalist, you might not be the go-to studio to do that. Ultimately, it depends on how you want to position yourself in the market. I'm curious about your take on this as well. Now’s the time if you’re a specialist. Be good at something, get hired for being the best at that. But, if you're looking for more long-term security in the industry, I think being a generalist makes more sense. It gives you ultimate flexibility while allowing you to pivot with new trends and technology. Do you have a thought on which is better?
TJ Kearney:
I think better is an interesting term. It comes down to your individual goals, whether at a studio or as a freelancer. Either is a gamble. If you're a generalist, you're probably not going to make as much due to your wide spectrum. The good thing is that you're going to get volume, so you'll have more opportunities come to you. But I wouldn't be surprised if the budgets go up. Right?
Instead, when you start to see the budgets go up, that’s when you have a hyper-focused type of team or individual. You especially see this in illustration where you’ll have an illustrator who's popular and has a distinct style. They could be three times the price of any other illustrator, but the client wants that one style. So, they're going to invest in the more expensive person. The problem is, you're waiting for clients who want that one thing or that one look. The phone will ring a little less frequently when you're that specialized, but you can charge a premium for it. That's all well and good when times are really good…
Mack Garrison:
...when that style's really in.
TJ Kearney:
That's the thing, it has a time limit. That style's not going to be in for the entirety of anyone's career. For that reason, I think being a generalist is safer. For freelancers, it comes down to where you want to work. If you just want to make sure you're making a paycheck, or you want to work at agencies, being a generalist makes a lot of sense. They’re going to have you work on tons of different types of work. If you want to work at a studio, most studios are looking for hyper-focused individuals. They have a need. They're trying to augment or add to their team. So many animators that are coming out of school right now, if you want to get into a studio, you have to differentiate yourself. It comes down to the individual's goals; depending on what you want, where you want to end up, and consistency versus quality. Those are the decision-makers for where you put your energy.
“it comes down to the individual's goals; depending on what you want, where you want to end up, and consistency versus quality. those are the decision-makers for where you put your energy.”
Mack Garrison:
That's a really interesting take on it. Using them as a continued example, I think about Golden Wolf. The type of person that would go there is very specific. On the other hand, I think about all of the random projects that come in the door. For some, it's more beneficial to have people with a multitude of skill sets. We may have someone working in pre-production who’ll then be animating the next day. Or, maybe they're conceptualizing some stuff. Having people that are versatile and can hop around is helpful, but maybe you don’t necessarily need to be versatile in a bunch of different styles, but versatile on how you take that style and apply it to different areas of the process. Whereas, in an agency, you may be more involved in all different areas, a studio you might be more specific.
Let me ask you this, TJ, let's say you're starting a studio. You open it up. ‘TJ Kearney R Us,’ or whatever it's called. How do you think you would approach it? Would you do anything differently? Would you be hyper-focused? More of a generalist?
TJ Kearney:
A few things, I would not hire based on skill set, but based on personalities. I’d build a team that works well together with skills that benefit one another. Then, I would learn to sell around that. What I've learned throughout my career is people buy into hyper-focused and well-running machines. Anyone, any client can go hire an animator. They do all the time. So, why do they need you?
You've built a unit, a team, that works so well together that they pump out work at a higher caliber than any freelancers or group they could bring in. That's the difference. When I first started, there were really big egos and a lot of assholes in the industry, to be honest. People could get away with that because they were buying into the fact that there were only a handful of people that could do the work. So, there were a few people that made a ton of money. They could treat their assistants like crap and get away with it because they were the only ones that could do it.
“Great Sleep” — Casper
TJ Kearney:
Let's be honest, we have an oversaturated market of talent. There are so many kids graduating, young talent coming out that's affordable. But, that only gets you so far. It's the teams that work well together and are going to make something better than any thrown together team can.
What I've learned the most out of all the companies I've worked with, is the importance of finding what you're good at, focusing on it, and becoming a leader in it. That means, for the most part, that you don't pivot, but when you do, you go all in. Those are the biggest things; team personality and makeup, finding what you're good at, making sure you stand out, and even if you take on and you are diverse within the walls of your studio don't sell yourself as a bunch of different things.
Mack Garrison:
I love where this conversation is going. Sometimes with direct to client projects, a lot of the clients are used to working with agencies. They're used to working with groups that have more capabilities than what a studio might offer. But the industry is shifting and some of these bigger companies are gaining in-house teams. Despite that, clients don't necessarily have the need for a big turnkey agency. They want to go to a studio for their animation needs, however, they're still wanting more of what they've gotten from an agency. Of course, it's just like a cheaper price because you're coming to a studio.
It's really important not to water down your focus and to be good at one thing, you know? As soon as you start to become too broad - you start doing media buys or try to become the motion studio that transitions into an agency - you’ll start falling short on promises and what you do well. Off that same line, aside from bringing in creative roles, what are some other roles you think are crucial that motion studios out there might overlook?
TJ Kearney:
I'm going to be biased to producers. I'm a producer.
Mack Garrison:
Right.
TJ Kearney:
There are a lot of studios that started with just creative, that's the biggest mistake. You need a strong producer that can handle tough conversations with clients, lawyers, and accountants. Especially when you're a small company. The reality is, you're not going to have an HR department. So they've got to fill in as HR and office management as well. They wear all these different hats. That's step one.
Step two...having a partner. You don't necessarily need to hire in-house accountants or anything like that, but having a financial partner that can guide you is something that's often overlooked. Also, lawyers are really important partners to have on hand. Then when it comes to augmenting your staff, I would focus on writers and developers. Having developer partners is going to open up the doors for a lot of where the industry's headed next. When I was starting, everything was television. TV and cinema then started evolving into digital and the web. We’ve had this golden period of making a bunch of online how-to and intro videos, but we're seeing those budgets get cut in half. Right? Now, we're trying to figure out how to get scrappy. But rather than fighting each other over the scraps at the end, why don't we focus on what's next?
Mack Garrison:
That’s a good point.
“what I've learned the most out of all the companies I've worked with is the importance of finding what you're good at. focusing on it, and becoming a leader in it.”
TJ Kearney:
That and media buying have been my focus. Most studios don't, but I think it is really important. Here at Work & Co, I have a content team, development team, and our design team. Also, a company that we purchased, called AKDM that does all the media planning and buying.
Mack Garrison:
You know, I think there's tension in the industry. Bigger agencies are getting smaller. You have freelancers who are becoming more capable. Kids are coming out of school who are doing phenomenal stuff. So, the industry is kind of pitching. What used to be brought into work for the studio is now getting taken away by freelancers and some of the top-tier studios are now taking work away from some of those agencies. There's going to be a lot more partnerships starting to happen. Because branding is going to be a really important element of this, but so is systemizing the motion.
We had a piece we worked on with a brand agency called New Kine, they needed us to come in and help with the video. So, it became like a partnership, we were brought into the conversations. It was all transparent, and in the end, we went our separate ways. They were able to deliver on a client's needs without having to take on the overhead or manage something that was out of their wheelhouse. I think there's going to be a lot more of that, particularly as shops become smaller while trying to be a little more nimble.
TJ Kearney:
I think you hit something important there. A partnership has to be a partnership, not a vendor relationship. When that branding studio brought you to the table, it was about both going to conversations together. When you're building these relationships, I wouldn't wait until the need arises. Then, you're scrambling. Instead, I would get ahead of it and build those relations now so that when the opportunity comes up, you're already fluid. You're used to working together and you know how it's going to work.
Mack Garrison:
That's a great analogy. That preparedness, thinking ahead is the biggest thing. It's easy to get caught up, especially when you're busy with projects that you're hyper-focused on. One of the things that I've learned from running the studio is that you have to be looking ahead; what projects are coming in, your revenue stream, is there going to be slower months? All are imperative and are examples of why having good management is so important.
What might be a good thing to speak on is the producer role. For myself, my role is pretty blended. I'm a producer, a creative director, an accountant, and I'm also writing company. It's all over the place, but a true producer role. What are the expectations of a producer?
TJ Kearney:
The true role of a producer varies by their level and specific title, right? You have junior producers, studio producers, broadcast producers, and digital producers. You also have senior and finally executive producers. Everybody has their different title. At a junior producer level, you're learning on the job. My expectations are you’re taking notes in the meetings, you’re checking in and making sure the shots are getting done on time while also reporting back. This will vary depending on the size of the company.
Standard producers can handle one to two projects by themselves. They escalate things to the executive producer and are the bad guys when needed. They're always going to have their scopes vetted by a senior or an executive producer before they go out. But I’d expect to be able to hand them a project and run the day to day and make sure it gets done.
TJ Kearney:
Senior producers are going to do all that, plus be able to handle multiple projects at a time at a full load. All the while, mentoring the younger producers. Finally, you've got your executive producers. In my mind, they’re the parents of the studio or team. Their job is to build that team to deal with inner conflict, make sure to find opportunities to grow staff members, and ultimately looking ahead to ensure there's work every day for that team; planning for the next quarter, making sure the work that's going out is leading to the company goal and creating opportunities that lead to the type of work that the studio wants to stand for. They're the ones that are going to be having the tough financial conversation. They're the ones that are going to have to deal with someone getting let go. All of those heavier situations.
“29 Rooms” — Refinery29
Mack Garrison:
There's not always a right answer for something. Sometimes a new request comes in that you’ve never dealt with one before. When you get situations like that, what's your solution strategy? For unprecedented situations, how would you advise some younger producers?
TJ Kearney:
When I started, I was frustrated. I was always told this industry is about who you know, and I didn't know anybody. I worried about breaking and making those connections. The hardest part when you're a young producer is realizing that producing comes with time. There's nothing you can do about it. You have to work your way through a bunch of different projects to start understanding what's needed, what unforeseen things to anticipate. That knowledge only comes with repetition and experience.
Another thing, every team you work with is different. A lot of times you'll see a producer who's like, “well, I had this team that was able to do this in two weeks.” Your new staff may take four weeks to do the same task. So, it's about knowing who your team is, what they can do, and how well they can do it.
Mack Garrison:
When you're a producer, you're talking about experience and how you need to build experience to make decisions. For someone who's up and coming, particularly maybe if you're the sole producer at a studio full of creatives, you may not have a mentor. How do you make tough decisions when you feel like there's nothing that you can back it up against? Is there a methodology you do in this situation?
TJ Kearney:
Getting back to what I was saying before about not knowing anyone, build a network that you can bounce ideas off of. They don't have to work at your studio. We all are guessing. It's the Wild West. Everyone's just making it up. The rate of what something costs is whatever you can get away with at the end of the day. So, it's tough to say, “here's the set of rules to use for producing,” because they don't exist. My whole career, I haven't had to deal with print. So, when I have a print ask, I have producers I can reach out to with that background. They help guide me. The misnomer that a producer should know everything isn’t possible.
Mack Garrison:
It's great to hear you say that. I think about when I was first getting into animation and motion design, I was a junior animator. As you get older, you gain more experience and realize that, to your point, no one in the game knows what they're doing. Everyone's just figuring it out. Once you conclude, it gives you the confidence to handle difficult situations consistently. The biggest thing that I've learned is whatever decision you make, make it, learn from it and be consistent with how you approach that in the future.
TJ Kearney:
Exactly. The difference between a junior producer and somebody seasoned, is a junior producer tends to fake it till they make it, pretend like they have all the answers when they don't know what they're talking about and do it as tight of a budget as they think they can get away with; all the things that bite you in the ass. Every one of them.
When you're a seasoned producer, you've got nothing to lose. Your job is pretty secure because you're a very senior person in this industry. So when you're at that level, you're able to say like, I don't fucking know and that's okay. I’ve made a fool of myself several times by just pretending I knew what I was talking about. When you're more senior, you don't sweat it. You say I need more time. You say I need to ask some questions first. I'll get back to you. You pad your budgets because you know that whatever you think it's going to take, it's going to take more than that.
“a partnership has to be a partnership. not a vendor relationship.”
Mack Garrison:
That's so accurate. It’s all about learning from experiences, which might be a good segue to a question for you. Are there any key moments of mistakes that have stuck with you?
TJ Kearney:
There are a few. At my very first job as a producer, I was working in visual effects and finishing house. We were finishing spots, big national broadcast spots, and stuff. We had to get ISCI codes so that we could play everything. ISCI codes are becoming rare, but at the time I had no idea what the fuck ISCI code was. I was too embarrassed to ask anyone though. Then, I did a Google search for ISCI and saw some definition of it as a password. I just went in, really confidently, to the client. I was like, "Yeah, let's set that password." They were like, "What are you talking about? That's not what an ISCI..." The client had to teach me what was in the room. You’re better off asking upfront, than being embarrassed after the fact.
Also, early on, my scopes were light, especially in assumptions. Remember, just because a client may have had animated thoughts before, doesn't mean they know what it takes to do what we do. I’d say, "We'll deliver you a spot, it'll be 60 seconds." That's about it. What I didn't build in back then was, "This is the style that we're locking in on." Or, "This is the round of reviews." A costly one for me was a really big tech job early on. We were supposed to run, around eight to ten weeks. In the end, it ran for eight months.
Mack Garrison:
Oh, wow.
TJ Kearney:
The client was frustrated, they felt the scope was deliverable space and we hadn't delivered against what they were requesting. I felt it was time and material space, but the scope was too loose to prove either of us right. Just made this uncomfortable situation. Do all the tough conversations before you get started. Make sure your contract is buttoned up. Make sure you've thought of every possible left turn that's going to come along the way, that it's written into your scope so that when it comes, no one's caught off guard, which happens a lot.
Mack Garrison:
That has to be a universal mistake. I'm cringing a bit because I look at what our SOWs were when we first started. What we send now is drastically different. I was guilty of the one line, "Here's the price, here are some references." I'll break things out line by line, to even storyboard style frames, keyframes, animatics to show the process, and what we're building into that. Laying out review times, because even with the best intentions, something always comes up. You just want to make sure that when there is an issue, you have a roadmap on how to handle it.
TJ Kearney:
It's brutal. Important things that get left out there are about breaking things down for granular. For me, I set out the ideal review cadence that I'm anticipating for the whole project within the contract itself, including how many hours the client has to respond with feedback before the change order kicks in. What I get asked a lot by younger producers is, "We're still only doing the number of reviews that we agreed to in our contract, but the client's taking a week to get back to us every round, and we're losing all this time." If you haven't built that into your contract, you screwed yourself.
Mack Garrison:
Right. Particularly on those event-driven deadlines, it's contingent on them responding. That's lost production.
When we first started the company, I remember reading books. Gino Whitman had this book, “Traction.” It spoke about systems and organization, as a creative, I didn’t think it was for us. I turned an eye towards having stock prices or systems for how we quote things out. But, the more I've grown in my position, the more that I've learned to like systems. They create an efficient machine. What are your thoughts on systemizing? Is it good or does it take away from the quality?
TJ Kearney:
I see two sides of that coin. I can tell you what I do now. I have boilerplate signs that are four different tiers of projects. If we need to turn out something quickly, we already have a keynote built that says, "Here are some examples of that style. Here are the deliverables that typically come with that style." Then, I give ranges. I won't get granular at that point, it's more like, "Okay well, that type of project typically costs $xx." Whatever it ended up being, you should anticipate the project will be between $xx and $xx. That's a variance in price there, comes down to music, video licensing types of things, or how intricate we get with the animation. We have a range there, to where we can scale back if this budget's the issue, or we can scale up if quality is the goal. From there, I try to use those to present what their feedback is and what they're reacting to. But, you don't want to pigeonhole yourself; presenting references the same, limiting your team. You could just fall into a pattern of repetition which is problematic in itself. By keeping everything a little more bespoke, you leave the door open to other styles and opportunities.
The other benefit to systematizing is consistency. The last agency I was at, every bid that went out was wildly different. The rates were different. Even if the ask was the same, depending on which team you were working with, or which producer happened to do that scope, you would get back different rates. That isn't so much a concern when you're a small studio, but as you get bigger, that's problematic. You don't want one client coming to you multiple times with the same ask and getting three completely different rates, it makes you look unprofessional.
“Video Awareness” — Twitter
TJ Kearney:
By systematizing things, as you grow and you add producers to your team, you're ensuring everything that comes out of your studio is consistent.
Mack Garrison:
That’s accurate. I think back to what we were charging when we first started, we're four times those rates now. Partly because, initially, you're like, "I don't want to go under." But being confident to say "No" to projects that you know aren't the right fit, that was hard. Knowing you had the time to take on the project, but it just wasn't quite enough money. One thing we found helpful was to have a baseline retainer. That was a pivoting point, maybe a year or two, where I started to think we could start to push to do what we wanted to do. Do you feel the same way? Does every studio or agency need some sort of retainer model? It seems like a good safety net to have.
TJ Kearney:
Yeah. Like anything else, there are pros and cons. The trap with the downside to a retainer system is the perception, "The client owns you," at that point, right? I’ve seen where the expectation on the client's side is like, "Well, you're part of our staff now. If our staff works overtime, you better be ready to turn on, work nights and weekends for us." I would be very hesitant to fall into that trap, but that said, your company is going to be far more stable with retainers than it is without them because you can start to plan out the year.
I see this all the time, where a studio ramps up when they're busy, then all of a sudden they've got a bunch of people sitting around with nothing to put them on. I think that retainers are scary to a lot of people because they have no idea how they're structured or how to negotiate them. It starts to be a more viable option, as you become established and build a rapport with a specific client.
“The Junebugs” — Produced by TJ Kearney
Mack Garrison:
Well, that's a really good point.
I'm looking forward to having you down here in October. You’ll love my hometown, we’ll be getting y'all some barbecue.
TJ Kearney:
I'm excited, man. Thanks a lot.
Mack Garrison:
Great catching up, and enjoy the weekend, dude. I'll talk to you soon.
An Open Letter to Dash Bash Attendees
dash: from two to twelve and everything in between.
Let’s roll back the clock to 2015. The Supreme Court affirmed same-sex marriages. We found water on Mars. Australians FINALLY gained access to Netflix. And with all of the other life-changing milestones…dash was born.
It was an unseasonably cool summer evening when dash was first conceived. A few beers led to an honest conversation about motion design and the direction that co-founders, Mack Garrison and Cory Livengood, wanted to take with their lives. They had met five years prior while working at a content marketing agency in Raleigh, NC--an agency they had both just left.
Cory, a Senior Animator, is self-taught and proud of it. His background in stage and film production at North Carolina State University gave him a knack for solving problems. This, along with his easy-going and charismatic personality, makes him a great fit for a motion design company that demands critical thinking and a cool head.
Mack, a Raleigh native, is an optimist and dreamer. He found his creative direction studying at North Carolina State University’s College of Design where he fell in love with animation and motion graphics. As an Animator and Creative Director, he has been exposed to a myriad of concepts—this allows him the ability to clearly articulate direction for a wide range of clients and creatives alike.
Cory Livengood and Mack Garrison
The Bash to end all bashes.
So, what were two (recently) freelance creatives to do? Hop on a plane to NYC and attend their very first Motion Design conference, of course! These conferences highlight some of the most unique and interesting work being created within the industry, but it wasn’t the recognizable names or the incredible projects being exhibited that struck them. It was how welcoming everyone was; Big wigs of the creative world chatting it up with two “Average Joes” from Raleigh--lending advice and genuinely wanting to hear their story. The positive experiences really stuck with them. It had made an industry that had once felt so massive a little less intimidating and more familial.
Fast forward again to 2021. Mack and Cory have now surrounded themselves with a team of passionate, hardworking folks who are dedicated to sharing their creations. This October 15th will mark dash’s sixth birthday, and we’ll be celebrating in style at The Dash Bash on September 23rd and 24th. Why a Motion Design festival you may ask? The studio would not have been half as successful without the connections and wisdom gained from hangout opportunities such as F5, OFF fest, and Blend. It’s now our time to give back to the community that has given so much to us.
Offering the festival in an atypical environment is a nod to the city that we love so much. Because let’s not beat around the bush, Raleigh isn’t exactly an LA or a Chicago. What it is, however, is a perfect example of one of the many changes happening within our industry. Modern technology is beginning to break down many of the barriers of the Motion Design world. It’s no longer a requirement to live within those larger markets to make a name for yourself.
Dylan Carrow, Mack Garrison, Cory Livengood, Meg Snyder, and Meryn Hayes
Continuing on.
Our intentions for this fall’s festival are not only to take the long-overdue time to reconnect with the community that we have been isolated from this past year and a half but also to raise our group consciousness. We spoke of change. Change is good. Change is growth. Change is constant. This industry has begun to change for the better, but we would be remiss to not acknowledge why it has been made necessary in the first place.
Present-day Motion Design is a multi-directional world of possibilities. Rising students today have the unique opportunity to choose from a number of career paths: 3D motion graphics, publications, UX, branding, sometimes work that completely resists definition or categorization. So yes, this field has an incredibly diverse range of professional foci, but the industry itself has historically (and presently) not been as inclusive when it comes to who is doing the creating. Motion Design as a profession cannot survive if it doesn’t represent the audience it’s meant to target. With Black Lives Matter, the Me Too Movement, and other social justice initiatives, it’s time we self-assess our own industry to acknowledge both the good and bad happenstances. While things are steadily changing, it’s time we recognize that as a whole, Motion Design has been lacking in diversity. Particularly when it comes to leadership positions. As a result, the Dash Bash is prioritizing a diverse range of speakers and topics to be discussed. It’s time we diverge from the traditional vision of what it means to be a leader in creative. It’s time to show exactly where this industry is heading. We’re excited, we hope you all are as well. See ya’ll in September!
The full dash crew