Meet the speakers: Loe Lee
An interview with Loe Lee: an illustrator and art director based in New York
Q&A hosted by Ashley Targonski.
Read time: 15min
Ashley:
Loe, it's great to have you here. I think we can begin by introducing yourself.
Loe:
Yeah, my name is Loe Lee. I am an illustrator and art director here based in New York. Some people I've been lucky enough to work with would be Coca-Cola, the Democrats, VICE, and Uniqlo. I've been both on the agency and the vendor side. One thing that I can usually lend is a bit of experience from both. Recently, I went full-time freelance.
Project with Havas Atlanta for Coke Coffee
Ashley:
How did you get into illustration and art directing?
Loe:
I first started getting into illustration when I worked at an agency called Translation. This was years ago. We did a lot of advertising work. In some of those cases it kind of lent itself to illustration. The first illustrations I did was for a brand back then called Google Play Music. We did illustrated animations that would play together and become social posts. So it was a social rebrand for them. My style back then, since I was just getting into it, was actually mostly vector, especially for animation, but it kind of sparked my, like, "Oh, I can actually do illustration for work." Because before that I was just drawing in my notebook and on coffee cups.
Ashley:
Yeah. It's really cool to realize that something that you love doing can actually be your way forward and how you make money. I know that you create a lot of different illustrations for different platforms like: digital, motion, murals and print, and all kinds of different mediums. How do you balance what to focus on?
Loe:
That's one thing that I feel like I'm weirdly good at. I think because I have a design and art direction background, when I was just doing pure design, I was made to work with all kinds of vendors. So I think that experience of being like, "Okay, well, if I have to break this illustration down for motion, I know what I need to do." Just because I've messed up so many times in the past. For print, I think it's probably not as hard as people think. I think everything is about getting the specs right.
Ashley:
You mentioned earlier that you just went full-time freelance. What made you make that switch from full time? Because I think the last time we interviewed you for a Mograph Lunch, you were just starting at VICE, which is really interesting to see your path to now..
Loe:
I know, I feel like my path is definitely not linear and crazier than I want it to be. I really loved VICE. It was so great. The team was amazing. We worked on a bunch of wonderful projects together. At the same time, I was doing a lot of freelance work. To the point where, if I have to be super honest, I didn't have a social life. I didn't sleep that much. Because after work, I would go home and do work. I would do work on the weekends. Even when I went on vacation and I traveled with my partner or my friends, I was doing work. I was constantly working. I felt like, "It's been kind of tough, I think, on my body for a long time." Doing the freelance thing, I guess I was nervous, because I was like, "Oh, well, I feel like the job is very secure." So many people feel that way. Especially in New York, it's so expensive.
At the end of last year, there was a lot of craziness within the corporate world. There's a lot of restructuring within all the companies. That is also true with the companies I was at. After VICE, I was also at another agency for a little bit. But with all the restructuring, coupled with all the freelance work, I it just wasn't sustainable. It was impacting my health a little bit, which I promised myself I would never do. So I just made the leap within the new year. I was like, "You know what? New year, let's try it out."
Illustrated animation for VICE’s Global Logo ID series
Ashley:
Yeah, that was going to be one of my questions, how do you balance a full-time job and your freelance work? I think that would be difficult for anyone, of course. Especially when it's starting to affect your health. I'm hoping that now that you're fully freelance, that's been a good shift for you.
Loe:
Yeah. I think it's definitely possible with the right parameters. If you're like, "Well, I'm only going to take one freelance job a month."it's definitely a balance.
Ashley:
Yea, and I noticed a theme of your work is mental health. Going into that a little further, I know you focused on sleep towards the beginning. Why was that a focus of your earlier work?
Loe:
This is something that I think I talked about mainly when I first started illustrating. When I was in college, I had this mental health issue that I never really had before. Basically, I had insomnia. It wasn't really something that I had before my twenties. I think a lot of mental illnesses do get diagnosed within your twenties. When I got that, I just suddenly wasn't sleeping for a really long amount of time, and it was starting to impact my life at school. I was passing out randomly. Since I was in New York, I was passing out on the subway. Just because of my sleep, I wasn't regulating it at all. There was nothing really I felt like triggering it. I mean, consciously, I wasn't staying up all night working, right? It's just you tossing and turning, walking around at night. It got to a point where I had to take a medical leave for a semester to deal with it. During that semester where I went to get help, at first, I didn't really know much about mental health back then. That was years ago. I had to go back home to my family, but my family thought I had a brain tumor or something like that. I was going in and out of all these x-rays and scans and MRI seeing what was wrong with me, because, of course, it had to be something physical, right? And then when someone suggested that maybe it was mental, even I kind of rejected it because I never really knew about it growing up. It wasn't really something that was taught to me. The only thing I really knew about was depression and I didn't feel that I was depressed. So to me, things weren't really connecting. But once I learned more about insomnia, what triggers it, how it's not just physical.
Personal project titled “Time to Recharge.”
When I went back to school for my thesis, I wanted to explore that theme more. So I did this project called A Hundred Ways To Worry. I interviewed a hundred people. I collected their biggest worry at the time and I turned it into an illustration book. And then when you flip the book, it has an affirmation. It was a project where you have one thing that you're really grateful for or you're really proud of and one thing that you're worrying about. And then I also made them into cards.
So when I gave them to the recipient ... Only they know. It's all anonymous. Only the recipient knows their own worry and story. The test was like, "See if you're still worried about this in a year or two." A lot of those people have said, because I know them personally, "Yeah, it's kind of funny because this is something I'm not worried about anymore." It shows that a lot of our worries, I mean, not all of them of course, are transient. That project was received really well.
100 Ways to worry project.
Ashley:
Yeah. That's really cool. Because I think when you're in it, it's hard to step back and be like, "This won't worry me in a few years." How do you feel like that experience made you grow as an artist? Or did it help you at all as you continue to grow?
Loe:
It definitely did. A lot of questions that people ask me is how I got my style. I always tell people there's no formula to finding your personal style. I think that just continuously drawing things that you like, you'll notice yourself gravitating towards certain colors and themes. For me, because I had a lot of anxiety, I tended to draw things that were calming. So a lot of blues, a lot of soft colors, and a lot of themes where it kind of brings it back to this dreaming, calm state. Honestly, that pervades a lot of my personal work today because that's when I'm the most content, just lying at home, putting HGTV on the TV for background noise and just drawing something that calms me down. I think that's just something really prevalent in city life as well because there's always so much hustle and bustle, especially when you go outside your home or apartment when you go to work. So it's just one of those things where that theme at least helps bring some peace into my life. It's something that I want to put into the world.
Personal project highlighting Loe’s style.
Ashley:
Yeah. I love that. As you've been creating your style, it's interesting to see how you've incorporated that into different brands. What's something that you start to think of when you get a new client and you're trying to meld those two styles?
Loe:
A lot of my work recently has been commercial work. I'm trying to put more personal work out there, but it's definitely a balance. At first when I started doing commercial work, I bent a lot to the brands. Especially before, I wasn't as confident in what I was bringing, in my direction or my style. So I was like, "Okay. I'm putting really hardcore branding in there." Because I'm like, "This is for a brand. I'm just happy to be here,"But I think now, very luckily, when people approach me, they know it's going to be a mix between real life and a little bit of fantasy or a little bit of whimsy.
Every single client is definitely different, so I think the key is always to ask those questions in the beginning. Something I always ask is, "How strongly should I be taking from your brand cues or your brand style guideline?" Because sometimes people are really strict, and sometimes they want you to do something entirely on your own. I think one example would be ... Even when I was working at VICE, obviously my style and VICE's style is very, very different. I know VICE is a little bit grittier. Sometimes it can get a little bit gross, sometimes it gets a little bit scary, so how can I implement that into what I bring to the table and meld those styles together? Sometimes it takes a lot of reworking, a lot of noticing little things, like VICE uses a lot of black. They use a lot of gritty textures, things like that. So just noticing those small details and adding that to my illustrations. When I worked with Uniqlo, for example, I think our brand messageswork together really well, positivity, vibrancy, living on the edge of helping people in their everyday lives versus going towards a little bit of fantasy. So when I worked with them, they were like, "Go crazy. Have fun. Do what you do." As long as it pertained to their theme, which was living vibrantly in New York. So it really depends, but it's definitely a sliding scale.
Ashley:
When you were first starting out and you had started to develop your style, was it nice to have your personal artwork on your website? Did that help people come to you for brand work?
Loe:
Definitely. I would say that's the biggest advice I give people who are starting out, is that a lot of times people, even for me, too, when I hire for something or when people hire me for something, they want to see the literal thing, which is really funny. Once I was pitching myself for these Subway ads. They were like, "Well, but have you done a Subway ad?" I was thinking to myself, "I haven't illustrated a Subway ad, but I've done plenty of print, so I'm not really sure what the difference is." The difference is there's really no difference. Honestly, now that I've done it so many times. It's just the specs. As long as you work with the specs, it's really the same as any print project.
Hope in the streets of NYC
One thing that I urge is that if you do a personal project, the funniest thing is even if you put it on a mock-up just to show what it would look like, and you post it online, it does get you hired for that specific dream project much easier. I don't think there's any problem putting that mock-up onto your site. I think what’s happening ... at least on my end, after I was doing more mood boarding and direction ... A lot of times, art directors have to do things really quickly. You have a time limit. Sometimes things have to go really fast. There's a quick turnaround.
So when I'm doing a coffee bag, for example, and I see, "Oh, this illustration's amazing, but I have to show some illustration on coffee bags. But for me to mock them up, it's going to take time that I don't have." If I already see on Pinterest, on Behance, or something like that, I can quickly grab it and put it on the mood board and present it, and then find the illustrators who worked on it. It's very easy to grab and see it so literally. It's so easy to pitch yourself and for the agency or the art director to pitch you to the client. Because a lot of clients, they're not art directors, so they can't tell you can do it until they see it.
Ashley:
Yeah. I was going to say, I think some clients ... There's some study about this, where creative people can actually see things in their mind on an object and other people can't. So when you're trying to pitch something to someone who's in an industry that doesn't require that skill, they just can't see it. So that is a really cool thing, if you have it on your website, they're like, "Okay, I already know that they can do this because it's there. I see it. It's tangible." When you get new work, what are clients and projects that you try to take on? How do you differentiate what you want to take on versus what you say no to?
Loe:
I think, definitely last year, when I was super busy, I was much pickier. This year, I'm much less picky because now I'm doing this full time. But I think things that I was really picky about is if it's a project that doesn't really match my style very well, but for some reason they want me to work on it. That happens a lot, actually. I'm not really sure why, but I think they want to see if I can fit the mold. But if the mold is really just so different from what I offer, I don't really take those projects on as much.
I think one other thing is if I see red flags in the process, the pitching process. For me, that would be wanting an answer within ... I know everything is rushed, but if a client or an agency messages me and then I don't answer in an hour, they're like, "Hey, we need this right now." I'll be like, "Hmm. I feel like the process is going to be really crazy." If I don't get back to them immediately, it seems like a fire drill. Everyone's different. A lot of people are probably like, "That's totally fine and normal." But for me, that's an indication of what the process is going to be like.
Or if you get asked so many questions down to the wire, especially when it comes to licensing, I think those are red flags as well. For example, there was one project where they're like, "Yeah, you're just going to do this one thing." And then in the license it would be, "For print." Even though what we discussed was just going to be a card. It'd be like, "Print is vague. It should really just be, 'For this card, for this amount of time.'" And they're like, "Well, we want to include, 'For print,' and leave the timeline open-ended, but the price is the same." Of course that's a big red flag. So you're like, "Maybe this is not for me," because you don't want to get in a place where your card is now a promotional poster which you didn't get paid for. Little things like that. Otherwise, I try to be pretty open to the projects.
Ashley:
Yeah. Sometimes they don't fully know how to build a contract. But it is good, as you were saying, to create those parameters. Be like, "Actually, this should just be what we agreed upon, the card, not all print materials."
Loe:
Mm-hmm.
Ashley:
When you think about art direction or something that would need more of that type of work, do you go about it differently than you would just starting an illustrative project?
Loe:
Yeah, I definitely do. Most times when I do just an illustration and it's a one-off, they know my style and then they come for that specific thing. Of course, they have their own brief and concept, but they want me to do my thing, in simple terms. But sometimes whens a bigger project especially a branding project, they want to see where you will take it. That's where I think the design direction comes in. Because at least for me, I'm very familiar with making decks, especially decks that tell the style and the story of where the direction is heading. So I think that's really where it comes into play. Because then you could be like, "Okay, well, this direction is sliding scale of your style. So here is very commercial. Very, oh, more standard, more commercial, very digestible and approachable"
And then, "Here is something that's really outside of your box. It still has some nods to your brand, but this is really pushing the limit and bringing it a little closer to what my personal style is." A lot of times I like to present one safe option, one wild card, and then something in the middle. When you do those three directions, it's usually a longer deck. It's a longer presentation. It's a longer pitch. But I think for those, it's more like a walkthrough and more of ... Not like a sell, but yeah, it's kind of like your pitch of these ideas, and the rationale behind it. All that good stuff that people are really familiar with when they're trying to sell a client something. And then some of the one-off illustration projects, it's like, "Okay, they're coming to me, I'm going to do my thing, and then we're going to collaborate on that."
Ashley:
I did want to talk about your mural work a little bit because I really love it and everything that goes behind it. I wanted to talk about your Care for Chinatown project. I don't know if that's still ongoing, but if you want to talk about what started it, what inspired it, and then how that went.
Loe:
Yeah. I actually really want to get back to mural work because last year I just could not do it, because it just takes so much time. Because you have to be onsite for days at a time, which I couldn't do. I couldn't take off from work. But for the Chinatown project, that was during COVID and that's when we started working from home. My family's from Chinatown. That's where they immigrated to in the sixties. So we have a lot of roots here. And I have seen this area change within the last 30 years. My family's still here. I'm living here currently. We're just very ingrained in the culture here, in the neighborhood. But it was during COVID, I think that ... It was no mystery that there was a lot of ostracization and xenophobia here.
Here in Chinatown, as you may imagine, it is an extremely popular tourist site for New York City. It's one of those things that everyone always hits and goes to. But during COVID it was like a ghost town, which I've never seen, ever. Except maybe when I was growing up, when it wasn't that safe back then. But now it's very bustling. I think that during that time there was also a lot of ... There was a lot of violence. There was a lot of vandalism. People were coming to the area to mess with the people here, the neighborhoods here and the residents. It was just really tough and difficult for all of us, I think, because nobody is really supporting the restaurants anymore. It was a really tough time for the Chinatown neighborhood, in general. Dealing with the racism, the lack of business, all this vandalism, which we don't have money to repair for.
There is an organization that banded together, which is Welcome to Chinatown. It's actually a lot of working professionals that are younger, that came together to kind of help revitalize the neighborhood. Because one obstacle that was happening,, is that a lot of the residents that are part of the culture, like the people who own the local shops, are family run. Those families immigrated here to give their children a better life, mine included. They worked really hard And then that's really an older generation that is still there because the kids like me, we have more of an office job. That's what that generation wanted for my generation.So those generations aren't always coming back to do the family business.
A lot of those times, those restaurants or those small businesses, they don't know anything about social media. They don't know anything about marketing. That's not really a thing. A lot of people, they don't even know English. So it's really hard to market an area if you're not physically there. So what Welcome to Chinatown did is ... because they have a lot of savvy people. There's actually a lot of marketing people in that organization. They created the campaign, the website. They throw events. They do experiential stuff. All throughout Chinatown, they plan stuff. When I saw them start doing that, they also rearranged the restaurants to ship food to the hospitals, because there's a lot of hospitals around us as well.
Ashley:
Yeah.
Loe:
Because the hospitals were overworked, and then they needed the food. And then the same thing with the restaurant scene of the business. So that partnership really helped a lot of people. When I reached out to this organization, one thing that they wanted me to do is help do these art projects or these murals within the community and for businesses that wanted them. Of course it'd be donated, and then we would raise the money for the supplies. It was really great.
Sins
Loe Continued:
What I really loved is that a lot of times for these projects, they also f turned into mural workshops. It was all planned out. It would be announced where you could go. You would have to get access, of course there was one mural where we did it in the community center. All the kids there helped out. They honestly painted the mural way more than I did. I mean, they did most of the work Once you showed them what to do, they're like, "Oh, this isn't so hard." And then they were able to take it away. When I say kids, I mean kids in high school.
Ashley:
Oh, I was thinking little kids!
Loe:
I was like, "Ah, painting murals, and then they're swinging the paint brush." That'd be really cute, but I think the people at the offices would not like that ... But no, they're high school kids. They're really interested in art and they're going to go to college soon. I think that was really close to my heart \There's a big organization called CPC. They help the lower income communities here. My family was part of CPC when they were growing up. They took them off the streets. So to be able to help the kids of this generation in CPC, earn more about art and that this is a viable career path, I think that was probably the best part of the whole project. More than just making pretty murals, which is really fun. But just showing that there are ways that you can help the neighborhood and it could be done through design and art.
Ashley:
Yeah. I love that there's a community of people that are, like, "Here's how we can help," and that you were able to be a part of that.
Loe:
Yeah.
Ashley:
I was curious, to pivot a little bit, about your thoughts on AI. Especially being an illustrator, is there anything you're worried or excited about with the topic of AI?
Loe:
It's really funny because everybody's talking about this, right? All the illustrators are like, "Oh, my God, the AI is going to make us obsolete," all these things. My old boss was like, "Who says we're not obsolete already?" And I was like, "Oh, my God.." But I don't know, it's definitely interesting. I think there are a lot of ways that AI can help people. There's some people I know that it's actually helped them find, for example, gaps within their resume, gaps within their writing. They're not trying to copy it, but it's helped them learn and improve. So things like that I think is really helpful. But when it comes to I guess the AI generating of images, I do think it can help you generate new ideas if you're feeling stuck. But I think it's definitely a tricky topic. It's one of those things that's like, "I don't really know who asked for this, but here it is."
Ashley:
Yeah.
Loe:
Right? It's to make art, I think, more accessible to a population who doesn't really specialize within the industry. For me, I'm probably not the target audience for an AI art generator because this could go as a direct competition to my work. But I still think that there's definitely a missing element that only humans can create or provide. A lot of the projects that you get, of course it has to do with art, but a lot of it is also about collaboration.
We can only hope that through the proper channels people will want to work with artists themselves. When people go back to the Polaroids and the records, or things like that, even though it's a really weird comparison, you still want to work with people. You still want to work with specific artists and specific agencies and specific companies. So I don't think it'll be a dystopian robot takeover.
Ashley:
Yeah. I think we hit on earlier, people come to you for your style, but then also because of that collaboration. So I think it's, as you were saying, hand in hand. You have to be able to create the art, but then you also have to be able to work with the brand, meld the two brands together, understand your client. There's so much more that goes into that. I know a lot of people are afraid of AI, but I think I feel the same way as you do.
Loe:
Mm-hmm.
Green Day
Ashley:
I just have some questions for advice for illustrators. My first one is, what advice would you give someone trying to get into the industry as an illustrator?
Loe:
I think if you're looking to do more commercial or branding work, putting those mock-ups on the site like we talked about and showing that, oh, you can adapt your style towards these different brands, I think that helps a lot in terms of selling yourself.
In terms of just putting it out there, sometimesI feel like a lot of people put a lot of pressure on social media. Where they're like, "Oh, I'm going to post this artwork," let's say on Instagram. Then they're like, "Huh, that sucks. Nobody saw it." And then you're like, "Oh, What's even the point of doing this?" But I think spreading it across different platforms, you have Dribble, Behance, Pinterest, Instagram, TikTok, all these things.
You never know who's going to see it. Sometimes when I talk to art directors, as the vendor, they'll show me the mood boards. And then the pieces where all I did was put it on Behance or put it on my own personal website, because I was like, "Oh, no one's going to see this. It's a niche little thing that only I like." If I see it on the mood board, I'm like, "How did you find that?" So you really never know how anybody finds you. Because I think someone was like, "Yeah, I saw you on a blog post." And I was like, "Wow, that's so crazy," because that's the last place that I would think. But you really don't know. Or someone was like, "Yeah, I saw your stuff on LinkNYC," which is those charging ports on the street. I was like, "Oh, that's so funny." Sometimes, I think we put a lot of pressure on social media and it kind of discourages us to put the art out there. You never know who's going to see, so I still think putting it out there is fine. It can never hurt you.
Ashley:
Mm-hmm. I think that's great advice. Because it could just be a random passerby looking at something, and like, "Who is this artist?" That's really cool. And then I know that you ... I don't know if you're still represented by an agent, but at one point you were. Are you still represented?
Loe:
Yes, I'm still represented by the same agent, Rapp Art.
Ashley:
Can you talk about the process of getting an agent? And then any advice you would have for someone who's looking for one.
Loe:
Oh, yeah. I think this is something that a lot of my friends ask me when they want to switch to illustration. When I applied for an agent, I went on these industry sites, like ADC or Society of Illustrators or Director of Illustration to see who my favorite illustrators were represented by. That was how I saw this list, or I made this list of reps that I really wanted to apply to.
When you see someone, you're like, "Oh, I really love this artist," and they're represented by Rapp Art or Debut or something like that, you want to apply. At least for me, I had to cold apply. Of course you get mostly silence. At that point, I just started doing illustration. I always thought when I got a rep that I'd be like, "Oh, my God, my life is set. I got a rep. They're going to be throwing me work constantly. I'm totally set." When I finally got into Rapp Art/Mendola, I was ecstatic, because I really love a lot of the artists in there. I love the whole team now. They're so great. I couldn't live without them now.
But there's definitely a reality check in that, just because you have a rep, it doesn't mean that you're going to get a constant stream of work. You still have to put in the work to get work. A lot of people are like, "Oh, I just want a rep so I don't have to do this outreach pitching anymore." And I'm like, "No, You're going to be doing that still. Make no mistake, that is still happening." At least for me, I think a lot of the work I get is 50% myself and 50% the agent. There's a lot of agencies where if you get the work yourself, you may not have to pass it off to your agent. It depends on your contract.
That's part of it too. They've thrown me a bunch of really great projects. I think that's a great way of how I got started. But now, it's more like 50/50. I would say I got my first really big project from them. And then once you do a good job on that project, then I think more projects start rolling in. But instead of depending on your agent to get you work, you guys are working together in tandem to get work together.
Ashley:
Yeah. I didn't even realize, when I first got into the motion industry, that agents were a thing. So it's so cool to see that it could be a good partnership for people in the industry.
Loe:
Yeah. I think for anyone looking to be represented, I would definitely do a deep dive on the reps you're looking at. Because I love Rapp Art. And then there's other ones that have over a hundred people on the roster.One thing I hear is that if there's a lot of people on the roster sometimes you can get lost in the list and you don't get any work. The agent doesn't know you as well, you're new, so you don't always get mentioned.
If that agent who has 500 artists doesn't really remember you in that moment, and they always pitch the same, let's say 100 people, then I would say, yes, that is tough, because that's something that I've heard from other artists. But at the same time, when you have a roster that's 10 people or 20 people, it's much harder and more competitive to get in, as well. So I would do research on what you want.
Ashley:
Yeah. I think that's great advice. For someone who is struggling to find their style or niche within the industry, do you have any advice for them?
Loe:
I think my biggest advice is always just to keep drawing. You don't always have to share what you draw. I know an artist that's like, "I really like Adventure Time." And then they started drawing a lot of stuff like Adventure Time. But then eventually, as they kept drawing, they're like, "Well, I like different things. I'm a different person." So eventually they start going more in the direction of what they like.
When I started drawing, I really liked a lot of black and white ink artists. Because I didn't own an iPad or anything like that, so I was just drawing on ink and paper. I didn't learn illustration either, so that's the way that I started. I always list an artist named Maggie Enterrios. She's also known as Little Patterns on social media. I was in love with her drawings in college. I've told her this. So I was drawing just like her when I was in college, in my notebooks. But of course, if you look at my style now, it is just so different from that. I also love artists like Dave Arcade. I love movies from Studio Ghibli. I think you take all these inspirations and you eventually find what your own thing is. It's kind of annoying to say, because that's not the easy way. It's just like, keep doing it, keep doing it, and it takes so long, but it's really the only way. It's like learning how to cook. It's like, yeah, you can do a quick workshop on how to cook these things, or you could do a quick training, but to really find the nuances of it, and find what you like, and discover, "Oh, this is my way," you have to just keep doing it.
Ashley:
Mmm-hmm.
Loe:
As long as you keep drawing and finding things that you like, what make you unique, you'll eventually find your own themes, things that you like to draw, ways that are more comfortable for you. You'll find it, but you just have to actually put in the work to doing it. You know?
Ashley:
Yeah. Kind of like learning the rules before you break them.
Loe:
Yeah, exactly. That's the way I did it, anyway. I was kind of emulating a bunch of people I liked. And then eventually you become confident in what you like and your direction, and you find yourself. In a cheesy way.
Ashley:
No, I love that. I think especially with media now, seeing all of these different artists and being inspired by so many people, I think that's a great starting point. Find what you love that's out there, and then build off of that.
Well Loe, it was great to meet you and I’m really excited for you to speak at the bash later in the year!
Loe:
Yeah. It was great talking to you too. Good to meet you!