MOTOMICHI Interview
In this conversation, Mack Garrison interviews MOTOMICHI, a Japanese-born projection artist and animator based in New York. They discuss MOTOMICHI's journey into projection mapping, the evolution of VJing, and the influence of teaching on creativity. MOTOMICHI shares his exploration of fear as a theme in his art, cultural reactions to his work, and the artists who inspire him. The conversation concludes with advice for aspiring creatives and insights into MOTOMICHI's upcoming workshop on projection mapping.
Takeaways
MOTOMICHI's journey began with graphic design and animation.
He transitioned into projection mapping through VJing.
Teaching has influenced MOTOMICHI's creative process.
Fear is a central theme in MOTOMICHI's artwork.
Cultural reactions to art can vary significantly.
MOTOMICHI draws inspiration from various artists, especially Michel Gondry.
He emphasizes the importance of creating without overthinking.
MOTOMICHI enjoys nature and kayaking in his free time.
He believes in the concept of Ikigai, finding purpose in work and life.
MOTOMICHI encourages aspiring artists to keep creating and exploring.
Chapters
00:00 Introduction to Motomichi and His Work
01:05 Journey into Projection Mapping
05:08 First Experiences with Projection Mapping
07:16 Teaching and Its Influence
11:16 Exploring Monsters and Fear
15:17 Cultural Reactions to Art
17:00 Inspiration and Influences
18:06 Tattoo Culture and Personal Choices
19:30 Hobbies and Nature
21:41 Advice for Aspiring Creatives
23:17 Workshop Preview
24:34 New Chapter
Transcript:
Mack Garrison (00:02)
Hey y'all, what's up? It's Mack Garrison with Dash Studio and excited to continue our Dash Bash Speaker Series this week with the talented MOTOMICHI MOTOMICHI is a Japanese-born award-winning projection artist and animator based in New York. His work is known for the use of black, white, and red with minimalistic graphic elements. Inspired by cryptozoology and mythology, he creates monsters that can be both monstrous and endearing, confrontational and playful.
He's has exhibited globally in numerous museums. He's screened films at all the film festivals you heard of. MOTOMICHI, I feel like you have the longest list of awards I've ever seen here. It's amazing. Thank you so much for hanging out with me today. Yeah, absolutely. You know, I have to admit, and I think I speak for every animator out there. At some point in time, we've always wanted to get into projection mapping ourself. You know, I feel like everyone has always kind of had that.
MOTOMICHI (00:41)
Thank you for having me.
huh.
Mack Garrison (00:56)
So, so excited to have you speaking at the bash this year and doing a workshop on it. How, how did you get into projection mapping originally?
MOTOMICHI (01:05)
How did it, you know, how I got started was kind of funny. So I actually studied graphic design and then I started doing animation. And then, but then I didn't really study like animation. I got into animation by learning Flash. So it was kind of heavy like in the web stuff. And then like, you know, like the friends that went to school with they kind of got into the motion graphics. And then I kind of felt like I missed the ball.
Mack Garrison (01:21)
nice, yeah, okay, I remember Flash, yeah, of course.
MOTOMICHI (01:34)
And then I was like, ah, it kind of sucks. I was like, you I really want to get, I tried really hard. So I started making a lot of animation. That's how I got into like a 2D animation. But then, yeah, well, I mean, yeah, also I was doing a lot of web animation, like flash animation online. And then, but I really wanted to go kind of beyond that. So that's when I actually started submitting my work to film festival. And then, but then I wanted more. And then, and I just thought that.
Mack Garrison (01:34)
Mmm.
Nice, just kind of doing it on yourself, on your own, kind of exploring it.
Sure. Right.
MOTOMICHI (02:02)
And I came across with this thing called VJing, video mixing. And VJing was pretty active that time in New York. So I guess I got to know someone I can remember. then I started showing up, this kind of VJ, get together kind of event. And I started doing VJing. And then always when you do VJing, so you do video mixing. Typically, people think it's VJing for the club. But then, since I did the...
Mack Garrison (02:05)
Mmm, sure.
Yeah
MOTOMICHI (02:30)
I was showing my, I started showing my work in a film festival. Some film festival or something kind of picked up. They saw my website or something, say, hey, your animation is going to be in our festival. By the way, I see that you do v-jane. You want to come and perform for a party. I started doing v-jane, but then the v-jane became more like instead of doing them club, I started doing v-jane on the stage.
Mack Garrison (02:48)
Nice, that's great.
interesting.
MOTOMICHI (02:57)
And so
that kind of became kind of like more like a projection. then that's the time that also later I found that a lot of VJs in, I think specifically like in Europe, like Central Europe, like Western Europe, these lot of VJs started kind of experimenting how you can actually do the projection onto non-flat surface. That's how we used to do it.
Mack Garrison (03:10)
Mm-hmm.
interesting.
MOTOMICHI (03:22)
And that's
where this kind of projection mapping software came in. And then, it or not, projection mapping has a strong root to the VJ culture. a lot of projection mapping software, including the one that I use, is developed by who used to be VJ. So it's kind of like a natural transition. And I was actually invited to a festival called Mapping Festival. And as a VJ,
Mack Garrison (03:39)
So how about that?
MOTOMICHI (03:47)
And somehow it didn't ring the bell. just somehow like I never reconnected the mapping to projection mapping. And then I did a gig, I did a performance with my friend, a musician. So after the performance, the producer came, hey, I'm just want to speak to you. And in the backstage, so now we want to pay you your fee. But would you be interested in us paying you the fee as a part of it as our software called MapMapper? And I was like.
You know, somehow I was, I guess I was in good moods, like, all right, yeah, I'll take it. Yeah, she gave me this copy. And that time is like in CD or DVD. I completely forgot about it. And then like three or four years later, I ended up picking up some, I got this, that time I was living in South America. And then I got approached by local government saying that if I can do some kind of public installation.
Mack Garrison (04:19)
You're like, why not? Let's try it out.
MOTOMICHI (04:44)
And I was like, there's such a thing as mapping. And I remember, I have this free software. I gotta use that. So I gotta look for it and I installed it. I think I can do this. So that's actually how I, so the first projection mapping I did was actually the large scale in outdoor. It was super stressful. Yeah, and it was kind of stressful because I never done it.
Mack Garrison (04:48)
yeah. I haven't even tried it yet. Let me open it up and see what it's like.
Wow, the very first time that every first time you did it, you were like, yeah, I could do this and projected on a building.
MOTOMICHI (05:08)
And I told them I could and then the whole context in Spanish so I had to like That's my third language, right? So it's like I signed in it's like, oh my god, I hope it's you know, then I want to just you know, I don't know I mean like they want to hate me or something. But anyway, so that's it. But then I really got in after that I really got into it
Mack Garrison (05:13)
some translation.
That's
really interesting. love, know, thinking back on it and even just as you described that story, it was always kind of a natural progression. You know, it's like, yeah, I could put some visuals behind the stage. yeah, we can project some visuals in here. yeah, maybe I can do something even bigger. What's interesting to me, well, actually let me ask you this. With that software you were talking about, Mad Mapper, is it still the same thing? Is that still what you use today? Wow, so that's something. So your whole career started by someone.
MOTOMICHI (05:49)
Perhaps.
yeah.
Mack Garrison (05:57)
Basically giving you this free software instead of a payment and you're like sure I'll give it a try and now that's like your career That's wild Yeah, you should reach back out what was the what was the project do you remember what that first one was in South America where you were projecting?
MOTOMICHI (05:59)
Yeah, I know.
Yeah, yeah, I gotta thank her. Yeah.
Oh
yeah, so that was the projection mapping in the center, central part of Kito. And that was, I think, 2012, I think.
Mack Garrison (06:18)
Mmm, okay, cool.
Wow,
okay, nice. And I imagine like, you know, any good project, you do it one time, you get interested, you're excited, and I'm sure someone saw it and said, hey, could you do this next thing for us? And it kind of starts to snowball a little bit.
MOTOMICHI (06:35)
Yeah, yeah.
from there, I started picking up like lot of projects in Ecuador, that time I was living there.
Mack Garrison (06:43)
Nice. And was this becoming your full-time gig at this point? Where you started to enough work and you're like, okay, maybe.
MOTOMICHI (06:47)
You know, I mean, thing is, I've
always been doing various different stuff. These days, I do more, but I would say, yeah, projection mapping or projection mapping related is definitely the main thing now.
Mack Garrison (07:02)
Nice, that's so cool. And I know you're teaching and before our call you were telling me that you were teaching a class over at NYU. Tell me a little bit about how you got into teaching. Were you always teaching while you were doing this or did there was a path that kind of brought you into it?
MOTOMICHI (07:16)
You know,
mean, the first before that, was actually I started I was like teaching, but I'm more like workshop. So I started doing the workshop for character design. Like I since my work is based a lot with the character and then the
Mack Garrison (07:26)
sure.
MOTOMICHI (07:35)
So I got really into this finding out how I create work and how other people can create. So I did a workshop. then from there, since I started doing projection mapping, oh, maybe I can do the workshop. So I started doing the workshop. then when I was living in Ecuador at that time, and I moved back to New York in, what is it, I guess 2016, I think?
Mack Garrison (08:02)
Okay,
sure.
MOTOMICHI (08:03)
And then since I was coming back in and I wanted to have some kind of something, you know, like solid, right? I started, so lucky I got the teaching job in Parsons, Parsons School of Design.
Mack Garrison (08:10)
Yeah, right.
great,
nice.
MOTOMICHI (08:20)
And then from there, I was asked to teach animation class. And then I actually wrote the proposal, say I can teach projection mapping. And I actually wrote the proposal to illustration department, because I wanted illustrators and animators to do it. And they didn't pick up. But the design technology department picked up.
Mack Garrison (08:28)
Have
Interesting.
MOTOMICHI (08:44)
So from there I started teaching there and then now I don't teach at the Parsons anymore, but I teach at SVA and then NYU. But I think it's definitely teaching is something that the kind of, know, like it sounds so cliche, but by teaching it, you kind of teaching yourself.
Mack Garrison (08:51)
great.
yeah, of course. Well, I'm sure it's kind of reminding you how to do some
of these various things that you're like.
MOTOMICHI (09:08)
It's kind of
really like forces you. Like for example, like, you know, we all use Photoshop in our studio, right? We think we know, but then once you do slightly different than you normally do, you have no idea. So it's like, in the first time I taught, I was like, yeah, it's so easy to teach, you I can teach like After Effects and stuff like that. But I was like, my, I just have no idea what they ask me.
Mack Garrison (09:12)
Yes, right.
yeah, right, exactly. You're like, I have no idea how to make this, I forgot.
Yeah,
you're like, I don't even know how to make that. So you're like teaching yourself, which is good. It probably keeps your it keeps your skills sharp, right? It's almost like sharpening a knife. You know, you don't become rusty that way. And I'm sure. here's a good question for you, MOTOMICHI Do you find that what you're teaching to your students also influences your own creative work that you're doing outside of it? Like you discover something new and you're like, I got to bring this into this next project I'm doing.
MOTOMICHI (09:34)
Yeah, so I have to study, which is great. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, exactly.
Yeah, think it's definitely the one of the things that I think is that I'm conscious about is that by teaching
basically like you force yourself to learn something new, right? inside of me, I'm thinking, my God, this is just so useless. I'm never going to use it. But guess what? Once you learn, it's like a vocabulary. can express, like you have another vocabulary to express something. So it's just, you know, it's not like immediate, but at same time, the fact that you already know, it's just basically you already know how to do it. So that becomes part of your kind of like data that you access when you do creative work.
Mack Garrison (10:10)
R.I.P.
Hmm
MOTOMICHI (10:35)
So I think for that way, it's definitely very, like it does influence my work a lot.
Mack Garrison (10:40)
I love
that you're kind of building up a toolkit. think all of us as creatives are always trying to have a bigger toolkit of ways of making things so I could see that. Well, tell me a little bit just to pivot the conversation. You know, I've got your Instagram pulled up right now and I'm looking at some of these really cool creatures that you develop. I mean, you definitely have a style, MOTOMICHI. I see this, you know, red, black and kind of white little monster that kind of keeps coming up throughout all your work in different places and utilizing different spaces.
MOTOMICHI (10:45)
Yeah.
Uh-huh.
Mm-hmm.
Mack Garrison (11:09)
Maybe you speak to me a little bit on the development of this particular character. Where does he or she or them or they come from?
MOTOMICHI (11:16)
So I like to use monsters as part of my work, like core part of my work. The reason is that as an artist, we have certain themes that we always kind of deal with or explore or express. And in my case, I like to explore the feeling of fear.
or like something like the... I mean, yeah, fear is to me like more like universal language. And then the fear is obviously one of them, like, you love and fear and all that. And then the way I see monster is sort of visualized version of our fear.
And then, so I started reading about like mythical creatures and monsters. And then the first time I read somewhere that I think some book I read or can't remember, it said something like, since they, you know, without the access to any technology or science, know, the ancestors didn't have any means to understand or cope with the pains, you know, they have to deal with. And then, so by describing it, like what it is, as a form
of monster creature that makes it easier for them to deal with the loss of their families or the entire town get wiped out or something. So it's easier for them to say, let's say thunderbird, right? Just comes certain time of the year. And because of that, we lose all the crops, let's say. So I really like that sort of aspect of it. So it's sort of like visual language. And then just basically describing what fear is, but in the form of
Mack Garrison (12:30)
Mmm.
Sure.
Hmm.
MOTOMICHI (12:56)
monster.
Mack Garrison (12:57)
You
know, it's so interesting to me. I love that take on it, right? How it's universal. Everyone navigates fear. Everyone can relate to fear. But to ask you another question with it, you you could easily say love, you know, love, everyone knows love, everyone can relate to love. You know, you could have chosen love, but why choosing fear? Is it because there's like a stigma around it? You know, what gravitated towards that you think?
MOTOMICHI (13:10)
you
I mean, I think it's... Yeah, I know. I think it's maybe just because... Because there's something wrong with me. But I think it's... As an artist, think it's... We're all kind of skeptical of one way or the other. And we always look for truth in certain way. And in my case...
Mack Garrison (13:25)
But you're like, man, that is kind of dark.
No, no, no, you're just a creative. That's who we all are, right? We're all a little off.
MOTOMICHI (13:50)
I want to look for something which is very pure and very sincere. And then I think it is, and also the fact that the...
Also that it shows our weakness too. Let's say that, I mean, I can go on and on about it, like fear is something that we can easily be manipulated with. And we all know that how media plays and stuff like that. But I think it's just something about it to me that those stuff that it's easy to talk about love or comfort or pleasure, but then the pain or pain or fear is something that we don't want to talk about. So I kind of feel like this is something that we can kind of explore more.
by admitting or by facing it, I think we can be kind of sincere, nice to each other, I think. Yeah, I really think that. Yeah, just because sometimes, you we will do a lot of stuff that, just because we don't want to face something. I think just facing is very, very important.
Mack Garrison (14:38)
I really liked that. No, it's good.
No, I totally agree. you know, a follow up to that, I'm curious is, you know, you've shown your work all over the world. You've had installations in numerous countries. Have you noticed certain countries or cultures reacting to your artwork in like different ways? Like when you talk about fear, you know, are there any distinct countries that come to mind or how people react to your imagery or visuals that are different from other countries? Have you noticed that?
MOTOMICHI (15:17)
I think the funny thing was that I always been based in New York. I grew up in Japan, but the way I started my career as an artist was actually not actually from New York. My work was mainly picked up in...
in Europe, but specifically like places like Netherlands or Norway or Sweden or Eastern Europe. And then they tend to see, you know, see this kind of images, not necessarily dark or negative, but they tend to see in a way that they're kind of more, you can say they're more open, or maybe they just have different take on it.
Mack Garrison (15:38)
Sure.
Sure.
MOTOMICHI (16:00)
But then they don't really take it as negative thing. They take it as kind of like some part of something. I think that was kind of interesting. And then from there, I started showing my work in the US. But in the beginning, it's always been sort of like northern part of Europe, or like eastern part of Europe.
Mack Garrison (16:02)
Hmm.
Sure, nice.
Yeah,
interesting. Well, and I think you're right. I think there is a stigma around fear and and just what you said a second ago highlights just, know, sort of there's uncomfortability and trying to speak towards it. And so how do you visualize it? How do you articulate that? I love that your visuals are given a medium for people to consider and to speak towards fear through. I think is really interesting. You know, I'm always curious. I'm going to meet you. You know, we've we've
talk on the series to so many different artists and creatives who are so talented in their own right. I'm always curious, who are some of the artists the creators we're speaking with look up to? Who are some of the creatives out there whose work you really love? Who do you find inspiration from?
MOTOMICHI (17:00)
It's difficult. I mean, it changes, right? Like it depends on the time. But I think the first person that comes to my mind is actually Michel Gondry. Also part of it is that they are part of the reason that is that they are because I love music video. And that's something I wanted to do more and I still do. But, you know, just kind of, it's kind of industry changed.
Mack Garrison (17:11)
Mmm.
sure. Yeah.
MOTOMICHI (17:26)
and it's kind difficult to find that. But I think to me, like his stuff is so good that when I look at it, I get jealous. That's how good he is. Even after all these years, I see something, it kind of gives me pain to watch his stuff because it's kind of like, why didn't I do this? Or like, how could he do this? But that's how much I re-adore his work.
Mack Garrison (17:36)
That's a good sign that you're doing a great job if you're getting jealous.
That's great. I love that. I love that. You know, I know you're always looking for inspiration in different ways, too I know you have a tattoo project that I think I saw that Ashley was telling me our producer about Have you done any or have you do you have any of your work tattooed on yourself at all? Have you ever gone that far? Yeah
MOTOMICHI (17:52)
yeah.
myself. It sounds
terrible, but I don't have any tattoo. But I mean, I have a very good explanation for this one. It's just because, you I was born and raised in Japan. And then in Japan, having tattoo is a whole different issue. It's just basically that having tattoo is not considered to be fashion at all. It's almost like, I mean, then we call it a fashion tattoo, this says. But if you have a tattoo,
Mack Garrison (18:10)
No tattoos.
Mmm.
MOTOMICHI (18:35)
put it this way, if you have tattoo, most likely you cannot go to public baths, sometimes you are even prohibited to enter a beach. It's because of this Japanese mafia culture called Yakuza, and they tattoo themselves. then so that we have this sort of like the, like a regulation. then, and that's something that part of the reason is when I go back to Japan, I want to go to the public baths.
Mack Garrison (18:41)
Wow, okay, I didn't realize that.
Sure.
Yeah, of
course, right? You want to do all the things you love to do.
MOTOMICHI (19:05)
And also that's something that I think my parents kind of have had, will have hard time. So that's also out of respect too. So I just decided not to put any tattoo myself.
Mack Garrison (19:15)
You can explore it. can enjoy the creative and the medium just not going on yourself. That's great. Well, what are some of the hobbies that you do when you're when you're not doing projection mapping or you're not teaching? What do you like to do on your free time?
MOTOMICHI (19:19)
huh,
I guess, know, like, is, I don't have that clear boundary between hobby and work. So, yeah, it's kind of a, but, but I actually, well, I moved to, was, I was always living in New York, New York City, but I moved to Westchester, which is suburb of New York. The, one of the reasons that I actually like nature. So.
Mack Garrison (19:38)
That's a good sign, right?
Mmm.
MOTOMICHI (19:58)
Well, since we moved to here, in summer, I like to do kayaking. then I actually, personally, I just like water, just in general. So I like to be closer to water. So we do very close to the Hudson River. So I go for a walk there quite often. I don't.
Mack Garrison (20:03)
great.
Mm.
think there's something
about water that's kind of so relaxing, or nature for me as well too. You we're in such a digital world that when you can break away from it and be in nature and at peace, I love to be in the mountains and hiking as well too. It kind of is reset for me.
MOTOMICHI (20:19)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Exactly, yeah, yeah.
Mack Garrison (20:31)
You know, it's interesting as you were saying that it made me think of, isn't there a Japanese concept called Ikigage where there's like, overlap of what you love, what you're good at, what you need. feel like, I feel like you're, you're checking all those boxes right now.
MOTOMICHI (20:43)
No, I'm not sure.
But I think, but that's, yeah, but yeah, that post has been shared a lot in the social media as I see that. It's funny because when I was growing up, that's one of those things that, you know, the old people say, so we are like, oh, I don't want to hear it. But as me being, you know, more grown up and see this, oh, actually, that's kind of a nice concept.
Mack Garrison (20:53)
Yes.
sure.
That's kind of nice.
It's good. mean, I think you, you know, I'm curious what you would say to this. You know, I find that when you're in life and you're in different stages of your life, there's always advice that you would give to yourself at different ages, you know, having gone through all this creative yourself, explored so much, you know, what would you tell someone who's maybe just getting going on their creative journey? You know, if someone maybe just graduated high school,
or just got out of college and they're thinking about pursuing a creative career, what's some advice that you would give? What's some advice you give to your students?
MOTOMICHI (21:40)
This is also advice to myself and I'll give that advice to myself like five years ago, ten years ago, maybe last year too. But what I always say is just to make something, just keep making something. I think it's kind of, over the years I learned that being an artist is kind of like walking up the stairs and you cannot just jump and...
It's just basically the more you create, the farther you go. And then I think it's sometimes that without just making it so complicated, like I kind of feel like when I was younger, I was too impatient and I was just too focused on sometimes there's something too close to me and sometimes too far from me. But I wish that I had known more about like the, I know, I wish I created, focused on creating more.
than just worrying about how to get my stuff out there or how to improve. Sometimes you have to just keep making it. And then I think that's the...
Mack Garrison (22:45)
I love that. almost
kind of feels like, you know, this day and age with so much social media, there's almost pressure as creatives to make stuff to be seen as opposed to just making stuff because you enjoy it. And I think that's like really important. Just keep making stuff, right? Just keep it moving. Keep trying and exploring. I really do love that a lot. Well, I'm hoping that folks come and explore and take your workshop this summer. We're going to have a great time here in Raleigh.
MOTOMICHI (22:50)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
No, no, No, no.
Uh-huh.
Mack Garrison (23:09)
Maybe you
could give folks a little bit of a teaser. What are we going to get into for projection mapping at this workshop? What are we going to try to do in this workshop, you think?
MOTOMICHI (23:17)
So I just, first of all, I just want to kind of introduce what is projection mapping. And then more like I want to focus on what you can do with it. So the meaning that let's say you're already creator, you already have something that you want to show. And then I want to present like projection mapping as sort of like one of these kind of options you have to, how to show your work.
And then sort of, I'll go through the kind of basic of it, but you know, it's actually projection mapping is super easy. So they can definitely just like learn how to do it very quickly. But it's just, think most like I want to kind of encourage people to actually try it after workshop.
Mack Garrison (23:59)
It goes back to that advice you just said, you just gotta keep making and keep trying. Don't let the friction of something new stop you from creating. Well, I love it. Well, I've been sitting here chatting with MOTOMICHI. He's a Japanese born award winning projection artist and animator based in New York. And he's gonna be teaching a workshop this summer, June 11th through 13th here in Raleigh at the Dash Bash on projection mapping. So if you've ever been interested in learning about how to do it, how to get into it, this is the time and the place to do it. So grab your tickets and MOTOMICHI.
MOTOMICHI (24:02)
Yeah.
Mack Garrison (24:27)
can't wait to hang with you this summer and thanks so much for chatting with me today.
MOTOMICHI (24:31)
Thank you so much for having me.
Hayley Morris Shape & Shadow Interview
In this engaging conversation, Mack Garrison speaks with Hayley Morris, an animation director and founder of Shape and Shadow, about her journey in stop motion animation. They discuss the creative process behind her workshops, the challenges of production, and the materials she uses. Hayley shares her early inspirations, the balance of motherhood and artistry, and the influence of nature on her creativity. She also offers valuable advice for aspiring animators and reflects on the significance of community in the animation field.
Takeaways
Stop motion animation is a time-consuming but rewarding process.
Workshops should focus on creative problem-solving and accessibility.
Finding inspiration in everyday materials is key to animation.
Early exposure to art can shape a creative career.
Clear communication with clients is essential in stop motion production.
Experimentation with different materials can lead to unique results.
Balancing motherhood and a creative career requires flexibility.
Nature can provide a refreshing break from the demands of animation.
Building a supportive community is vital for growth in the creative field.
Investing in the right tools can enhance the animation process.
Chapters
00:00 Introduction to Stop Motion Animation
03:07 Workshop Insights and Creative Problem Solving
06:00 Early Inspirations and Influences
10:07 The Challenges of Stop Motion Production
13:00 Materials and Experimentation in Animation
16:01 Balancing Art and Motherhood
20:02 The Journey of Shape and Shadow
24:02 Nature's Influence on Creativity
27:53 Advice for Aspiring Animators
Transcript:
Mack Garrison (00:00)
Hey, what's up y'all? Mack Garrison here with Dash Studio and so excited to be continuing our speaker series with a talented Hayley Morris from Shape and Shadow. If you don't know Hayley in Shape and Shadow, they're an animation studio of Hayley Morris, an artist and animation director based in Vermont. At Shape and Shadow, they specialize in mixed media and stop motion animation, creating stories that come to life through rich textures, handcrafted details, and thoughtful storytelling. Hayley, thanks so much for hanging out with me today.
Hayley (00:28)
Thanks so much for inviting me to do a workshop at the Dash Bash. I'm super excited to do this with all of you and to meet more people in the animation community. So it should be really fun.
Mack Garrison (00:41)
my gosh, it's gonna be so fun.
And I think on behalf of every creative out there, we're so jealous that you have like maybe the coolest job in animation. Like I feel like stop motion is like what everyone wants to do. And then they realize like how long it takes and they're like, okay, maybe it's not quite for me. Maybe you.
Hayley (00:50)
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, it definitely
is a time consuming process, but I love every minute of it. It's super fun.
Mack Garrison (01:04)
Well, you maybe that's a good place to start for a workshop in stop motion. You know, what do what should folks think about? Is there considering coming to take your workshop or what is the stop motion workshop going to be like? You think?
Hayley (01:17)
Yeah. so I was brainstorming a bunch of ideas and I think when, when coming up with ideas, I was like, okay, this is fairly short, like an hour and a half, I think. And so it made me think about, in animation and the pitching process of pitching your ideas and you don't have that much time to, you know, come up with stuff. So I was like, okay, there's a time limitation.
Mack Garrison (01:41)
Sure.
Hayley (01:43)
let's embrace that and just think about like creative problem solving. So I thought it would be fun to have kind of like an intro to stop motion animation and that you're working with physical materials and thinking on the spot and like coming up with something really fast. And in my own work, I do a lot of improvisational kind of stuff and thinking about how can I repurpose
Mack Garrison (01:48)
I like that.
Hayley (02:10)
materials and come up with creative solutions. So in this workshop, students will be animating on their phones, which everybody has. So it'll be very accessible for everybody to learn how to use phones to animate and learn how to animate frame by frame, which I imagine a lot of people coming to this workshop probably have more computer experience. Yeah.
Mack Garrison (02:38)
Sure, like cell animation or something like that.
Hayley (02:40)
So I think it'll be really cool to see how they translate those skills that they already have, or maybe they don't have any animation skills. don't know who's coming, but I wanted to make it accessible for people with experience and people without experience. So having materials they can work with and just work hands on in that hour.
Mack Garrison (02:51)
It's gonna be a mix. It'll be a mix.
Hayley (03:07)
and learn about the basics of stop motion frame by frame using a stop motion app in the phone and learning about how they can use like limited resources to make something really fun and playful.
Mack Garrison (03:22)
That's so rad
because I feel like there's always like kind of a little bit of friction to trying to get into anything new, right? It's like, well, I don't quite know how to do it. So it sounds like with this workshop, it'll be a digestible elemental take on stop motion to kind of get you started and hopefully inspire you to do more later on, which sounds really good.
Hayley (03:41)
Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I want people to come out of it feeling like excited and that they can do it on their own, you know, in their house or like animate something in the street, like just with their phone, like finding cool patterns and stuff. So yes.
Mack Garrison (03:49)
love that.
I'm so cool. I'm so cool. It's so cool. I do feel like I am cool sometimes. It's
so cool with stop motion. Even you alluded to there at the end, like keeping an eye out for patterns. I bet you're always kind of thinking through like, this would be like fun to play with or put in motion or this material could be really good. Do you find yourself like every time you're just out in the day to day real world, you're always looking at textures or patterns or some of those little pieces.
Hayley (04:23)
yeah, like every day I find something where I'm like, that would be a perfect material or I could turn that into a little film. Like, yeah, just going on walks. I live in Vermont in a pretty rural area. just like going on hikes and stuff, I'm like, I could animate like these textures in the forest here. Like, I feel like I'm always looking for stuff wherever I go.
Mack Garrison (04:46)
I love that. That's great.
I'm curious, Haley, from your perspective, you know, do you have any first initial memories of when you got into stop motion? Like anything come to mind is like, that was the first movie or TV show or first time I saw where I was like, this is interesting. What is this?
Hayley (05:02)
Yeah, I mean, I grew up watching so many movies. Like, I would just watch things over and over and over again. think a lot of the movies that I grew up with, you know, being born in the 80s, a lot of special effects were done in stop motion. like, everything prior to Jurassic Park, like all the special effects were stopped. Yeah,
Mack Garrison (05:22)
yeah.
That's right, was what, Phil Tippett, right? Who did all the stuff. Yeah, super cool.
Hayley (05:32)
So I think, yeah, I was just mesmerized by these worlds that were created on screen and that they were like real physical sets and, you know, whole worlds that were created by artists. So, yeah, I'm thinking about the movies I really liked, like all of Jim Henson's films, like Labyrinth and Dark Crystal and even Neverending Story. Those were all like puppet.
Mack Garrison (05:59)
yeah.
Hayley (06:00)
real puppets and interacting with live action stuff and I just loved those very fantastical worlds that were created. That's not necessarily stop motion but I think that was my first like glimpse of like creating a different world from what we are living in and like I just loved that magic of it.
Mack Garrison (06:21)
Well, I love that they
were like kind of like you said, it wasn't exclusively stop motion, but it was kind of cool how they could weave it into like live action or some of these pieces and how fluid that was, you know, especially as another eighties kid, you know, never ending story. I mean, that was like the peak of the eighties. I feel like a movie I was watching loved it so much.
Hayley (06:29)
Mm-hmm.
Thank you.
Mm-hmm. Yeah, I mean, it's you watch it today still and you're just like this is so amazing like it doesn't seem dated like Everything is so beautiful. I love it
Mack Garrison (06:51)
When did you have like someone
in your life that kind of helped guide you a little bit on that? Or were you just kind of tinkering on your own when you first started and just like, let me just see what this looks like if I try this with my camera.
Hayley (07:01)
Um, well, my mom definitely like encouraged my art making. So as a kid, like I was always drawing with her. She was giving me like sculpey clay and I was sculpting little heads out of clay as a kid. Um, but yeah, in high school, um, I had a really great art teacher that really encouraged me and I wanted to experiment with stop motion. And he like,
made this little independent study for me where I made my first stop motion film just using like a camcorder and stopping and starting the record button over and over. Yeah. And I just, I just loved it. And yeah, it was a great first experience. And then in college, I went to RISD and majored in animation, actually film animation video. And you have to
Mack Garrison (07:38)
how funny.
Hayley (07:57)
do film as well, is really cool, like learning the whole language of filmmaking. And you get to like have a little taste of like everything. So, you know, 2D animation, video, filming with like real film on a Bolex, like all that stuff. Yeah. And it was really, it was a great program. But I took a stop motion class, which I knew was like something I really...
Mack Garrison (07:58)
Mmm.
wow.
Hayley (08:24)
was excited to learn about and I took that and I was just like, okay, yeah, this is it. This is what I love. Yeah. Yeah.
Mack Garrison (08:28)
Totally hooked, I love it so much. Well it feels
like there's always this kind of combination of art and design in the world that we operate in, Art is such a personal preference on things, design, we're trying to create stuff for other folks. And I feel like, especially with stop motion, there's just a lot of gray area right there where it is art, but you're still trying to solve a problem for the client. And I feel like that's gotta be so hard when there's such a lack of do-over opportunity in stop motion.
At a high level, what's some of the planning that kind of goes into some of the stop motion stuff to ensure the clients that you work with aren't going back and having to make tons of revisions later on?
Hayley (09:07)
Yeah, that's a great question and point. I think there's just a lot of pre-planning that goes into it before, you know, starting. I think being really clear with the client about the process, because a lot of people don't understand that you can't just like click a button and change it magically. Yeah. So I think it's, yeah, just being very clear about the process and, you know, having a really
Mack Garrison (09:27)
Right, like, no, that's like locked in.
Hayley (09:37)
Especially for commercial work, like a really tight animatic, you know, having your designs, you know, everything approved, the whole approval process, and then when animation starts, you're like, okay, so everything good once we start. Yeah, because once we start, it's going to be really hard to reshoot because it's all, yeah, straight ahead. It's not like you're doing keyframes and you can go back. It's like the straight of head process that
Mack Garrison (09:51)
Yeah, one last time, just wanna check in, make sure y'all are good with all this.
Hayley (10:07)
You just have to embrace and trust that it's gonna all go well, so.
Mack Garrison (10:11)
And I guess
it goes back to what you mentioned earlier and like improvising, like kind of on the fly. Cause like sometimes I bet you're on set. It's not quite going exactly like you want it to. It's like something struggling to land, right? And you're probably like, okay, we need to pivot from this and do X, Y, Z instead of ABC. Does that happen with regularity?
Hayley (10:30)
Yeah, I mean, I feel like you can plan as much as you can, there's something always comes up where maybe it doesn't go exactly where you're going and you kind of, have to embrace it and kind of like in the moment, like rethink where it could go. so I kind of like that challenge of it. I mean, you can, of course, like, you know, reshoot something, but it's going to add more time and money to a project. But
Mack Garrison (10:49)
Sure.
Hayley (11:00)
Yeah, feel like, yeah, it's fun, embracing the spontaneity of it.
Mack Garrison (11:07)
Well,
and like at the core of what we do, I so much of us are problem solvers, right? We kind of forget that we're caught up in like design and creative and aesthetic, which is great, but it is problem solving at its core. And so I think designers are always kind of on their toes and having to think through stuff, which is really neat. I'm sure with so much experience in stop motion, there are certain materials and tools that are like your go-to now. You know, I just think about, you know, stuff that you work on, whether it's, you know, clay or fibers, like, do you have
Like what are some of the different, I guess, materials you work with on regularity for projects that are kind of like your go-to materials?
Hayley (11:43)
Yeah, I mean in my work I just, I think with stop motion it's like such a tactile medium that you're using real physical materials and using real light to accentuate the textures and you know bring whatever you're trying to do on screen to life so I like working with everything. I think that's what's so fun about stop motion is that you know there aren't any rules you can
Mack Garrison (12:06)
Nice.
Hayley (12:12)
animate absolutely anything. So that's why I love just experimenting and seeing what makes the most sense for each project. lately I've been doing a lot of paper. It's a really versatile material. know, one flat sheet of paper you can fold, can sculpt, you can crumple it, you can turn it into anything and working with that like set range of colors and finding.
you know, sourcing those materials is really fun. But yeah, for each project, it's always like a big puzzle I'm trying to figure out. And usually for client work, they usually come to me with like, you know, a general idea or style that they're going for. So it's usually like, okay, we want, we see you do paper, can you do something within this style? And then I adapt it and make it fit whatever, you know.
Mack Garrison (12:51)
Mm.
Sure.
Hayley (13:11)
The feeling that they're going for is...
Mack Garrison (13:12)
Sure.
Have you ever had to work with some random material? Like, is there anything that sticks out? You're like, that was the weirdest thing. We did stop motion with like the inside of an orange or something. Yeah, I don't know what it is.
Hayley (13:22)
Yeah,
I did get asked to I did a music video for explosions in the sky, like a few years ago and I had a bunch of glass blowers, make these glass increments for me and I animated them and it was really really cool and then I got asked somebody somebody saw that and they wanted to do a pitch for something where I to like replicate water and they were like
Mack Garrison (13:51)
Whoa.
Hayley (13:51)
do
something similar like water in a plastic bottle but have the water bottle look like it's turning from a bottle into water and i was like okay i can i don't know if i can do glass again but what's similar to that and i was like they make like fake glass out of sugar so i like did this whole day my kitchen was crazy i
Mack Garrison (14:01)
Whoa.
Huh.
Yeah, you're
like, didn't know I was gonna be a chemist as well in this profession,
Hayley (14:18)
Yeah, so that was
a challenging one. I was like, okay, so yeah, there's always this challenge of figuring out how to do stuff. And the experimentation of that is super fun. So I made mold, like a mold of a water bottle in full form, and then the increments of it kind of like breaking apart. So I made like clay sculptures of that made them made mold, silicone molds. And then I made a bunch of sugar.
Mack Garrison (14:37)
Whoa.
Hayley (14:46)
melted sugar and poured them into the molds and let them dry and then animated them. So I think that was probably the hardest and weirdest material I've worked with probably.
Mack Garrison (14:51)
That's pretty wild.
Well, and I
bet like with food, there's like the added dilemma of stuff can spoil or go bad. like, I'm sure that affects like how quickly you need to move. Maybe not so much for sugar, but I'm sure some of the other projects you've worked on when you work with food, I'm sure there's like an expiry date on like having to get stuff done by a certain point. Otherwise stuff starts to rot. That's so.
Hayley (15:16)
Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah, you're working
against time. So, yes.
Mack Garrison (15:21)
Time seems to be everything in your line of work, doesn't it? Well, I
love that when you were little, you were talking to me earlier about your mom kind of feeling like you were empowered to try creative, to explore all this stuff. know, ahead of this interview, I was doing a little research and I found the Nouns Fest on your Instagram, which talked about this, you know, shaping clay and how motherhood is shaping you. Maybe you could tell us a little bit more about that. You know, your mom had such an impact.
on you and now you have this film, Blueberry Girl, how do you balance being an artist and a mom these days?
Hayley (15:57)
Yeah, so it's definitely a challenge, I'm not gonna lie. Yeah, my daughter's four years old, and she's not in school full time, so it's definitely a balance of working and watching her, but it's so much fun and I wouldn't trade it for anything. I think being a freelance artist is great that I have these periods of time where I'm super, super busy.
Mack Garrison (16:00)
Sure.
Hayley (16:23)
And then I have some downtime where I can spend a lot of time with her. So I love that flexibility. But yeah, the film for NounsFest was really cool. I saw an ad on Instagram where was like, we fund independent animators. We'll give you a chunk of money to make whatever you want. We'll be super hands off. And I was like, that sounds amazing. I'll try. Yeah.
Mack Garrison (16:49)
You're like, that's like a dream job right there.
Hayley (16:52)
I was like, I'll try, I'll try sending an idea in. And at the time I had been doing these clay loops just for myself to, you know, I always have something going on on the side just to experiment. So I was making these clay loops of my daughter and I, like me as this large figure and her as this tiny figure, like jumping on me and adding her voice on top. And I was like, oh, this would be a perfect.
Mack Garrison (17:05)
Sure.
Hayley (17:20)
opportunity to expand this idea and turn it into something bigger. So I sent in some of those tests I had done with, you know, kind of an overview of what I wanted to accomplish and they picked me as one of the filmmakers. So yeah, it was a really cool, yeah, they, it's such a cool program. Any animator watching this, like, check out NounsFest and submit an idea next year.
Mack Garrison (17:35)
Cool.
Hayley (17:50)
But anyways, yeah, so for that film, only kind of restrictions are you need to use some of the- one or more of the characters, these nouns characters. You can look it up, Nouns Festival. They're these little characters with glasses. And so I had my daughter look at all of the characters that were created and she picked a bunch of them that she liked. Okay, we can work with that.
Mack Garrison (18:06)
Sure. Fine.
Nice.
Hayley (18:20)
And then at the time she, and even now she's really into pretending she's different characters. And she was really obsessed with Willy Wonka at that time. Yeah. And she would just go around the house like saying, I'm blueberry girl. And pretending she was, what's her name?
Mack Garrison (18:28)
haha
Excellent, who wasn't at some point in their life?
yeah,
on Willy Wonka the girl who turned into the blueberry. Yeah. Yeah, that's right.
Hayley (18:44)
Yeah, Violet Beauregard, yes.
And so, yeah, I thought it'd be really fun to have her interact with me and have her head turn into these different characters and use her voice. So, yeah, in the clay animation, she turns into a blueberry, a whale, a tuba, and then I recorded her voice doing, saying all this really funny stuff.
Mack Garrison (19:06)
Bye.
Hayley (19:13)
And yeah, I just really wanted to capture our relationship during this time and also her voice, is just so cute right now. So it's a nice time capsule. But yeah, really, I just fell in love animating with Clay. I hadn't really done it very much before and now I'm obsessed with it. And I think...
Mack Garrison (19:23)
That's so sweet.
Mmm.
Sure.
Hayley (19:37)
Much like motherhood, there's like no manual. And with this play, it's very intuitive and you kind of just have to go with the flow. So, you know, I do the same thing with my daughter. It's just like every day, was just like going with the flow, figuring stuff out. So I liked, I really like that, like freedom of the material and just having it kind of lead the way for me.
Mack Garrison (19:41)
sure.
I love it. Well, I love the kind
of just the free flowing life perspective, you know, with your daughter, it's figuring it out, right? On a day to day basis, we'll get through it and same with the client work, something comes up, we'll figure it out. The clay, let's just let the clay move where it needs to. I think sometimes as designers and animators and creatives, there's sort of the sense of perfection that we're always chasing, you know, just because we wanna make stuff as good as it can be, but something I've really just.
Hayley (20:09)
Yeah.
Mack Garrison (20:29)
learned to grab from our conversation thus far is just how easy it seems to come to you to just keep things moving forward in a certain degree, right? know, one my favorite lines is perfection inhibits progress. And I feel like you're kind of that way too. It's like, let's just keep it moving. We can refine it if we can, but let's just go with the flow, right?
Hayley (20:46)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, exactly.
Mack Garrison (20:48)
I love that so much. Well, let's speak to me
a little bit about shape and shadow. You how did that come to be initially and where does the name come from?
Hayley (20:56)
yeah, so yeah, I've been working in animation since out of college in different venues, but after working at different production companies and freelancing, I was like, I want to start my own thing. so I decided in 2015 to start Shape and Shadow and
Yeah, I mean, I work primarily by myself, but I bring in freelancers when I need to. if budget allows and I just love, you know, being able to collaborate with a bunch of bunch of people on artists that I love. I think one of your questions was like about the logo too. Okay. Yeah. When coming up with the name, I really wanted to incorporate
Mack Garrison (21:44)
Yeah, yeah, just all of it. Curious how it started, curious about the logo, how it all came to be.
Hayley (21:54)
like animation in it and specifically the kind of animation I do. So like I'm working with physical materials, the shape and then the shadow. I work with real light. So and I thought the alliteration of shape and shadow is like very musical. And I work with musicians a lot. I don't know, I just just really I went through a bunch of names, but that one specifically I was like, oh, this works. I love this.
Mack Garrison (22:21)
It's so funny, one of the harder things I feel like with the opening your own shop is just coming up with a name that you like. I'm sure you probably went through a million different names and you were like, all right, this one sounds good enough. It sounds good.
Hayley (22:23)
Yes.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
I remember like calling my grandfather, who was like a big influence on me too, and just telling him a bunch of the names I was going for and I told him shape and shadow and he was like, those are like the two most beautiful words ever put together. And I was like, okay, I'll go with that one. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Mack Garrison (22:49)
Gosh, you're like soul granddad. Yeah, the nostalgia got you. I love that.
I feel like granddad's grandparents have good influence on pushing folks the right direction. I'm curious, who are some other folks that inspire you? It seems like family is really important. I could draw that from your mom or even just referencing your granddad or your daughter, but who are some other maybe creatives in the field that you just really look up to and you're like, oh, they're just doing some amazing work and I need to give them a shout out on how good their stuff is.
Hayley (23:08)
Yeah.
Yeah,
Well, going back to my grandfather, I feel like he was a really huge influence. He was a music composer for film. So like as a kid, I'd watch him on his piano with a little TV, like improvising music to the visuals he was seeing. And so I kind of do the opposite in that.
I like working with musicians and bands and visualizing their music. I think that was a huge influence just seeing the film world through him. But some artists that have inspired me in animation are Lotte Reiniger, who was a woman, stop motion paper artist in the early 1900s. And she made
Mack Garrison (24:02)
Hmm.
Ugh.
Hayley (24:12)
I actually made the first feature animated film like way before Disney. Yeah. And she worked on a multi-plane, was like what's behind me, layers of glass and doing a lot of paper cutout like fairy.
Mack Garrison (24:16)
Whoa, I had no idea.
Sure, okay.
Is multi-plane,
I'm remembering from like Disney where you can get like depth of field or maybe parallax because it's like different layers, is that essentially kind of the same thing?
Hayley (24:38)
Yeah, yeah, mean theirs was like super amazing with like... Yeah, yeah, like they could do all these crazy camera moves and yeah, like pretty much all of Disney's was done on a multiplane. But yeah, mine's kind of more basic, more like a lot of going in your head. But yeah, it's essentially like a...
Mack Garrison (24:42)
sure, right? The layers and how it could extrapolate and kind of pinch together, of course.
Wow, okay.
Hahaha
Hayley (25:05)
old school like after effects or photoshop if you think about it like layers that you can put you know your foreground middle ground background and i love that i can do you know it doesn't just have to be paper it could be any material so yeah
Mack Garrison (25:08)
Thanks
That's cool. I love that
flexibility and kind of goes back to like, you're always looking to tink around with different stuff anyway, right? Not beholden to just one material. It's literally whatever you can find. Something you mentioned earlier I thought was really interesting is, you go on a lot of walks, you're up in the Vermont area. It's so beautiful up that way. I'm sure nature has a big influence on you and being outside. Maybe you could talk a little bit on, you
why Vermont or like why is it so good to be in a place where you can go on these hikes and step away from work and how has that kind of helped you as a creator be better you think?
Hayley (25:53)
Yeah, I mean in my whole adult life I've lived in cities so I definitely I love cities and like I'm so inspired by cities and moving here was definitely an adjustment for me but I'm like loving it now after being here a few years but yeah my husband's family lives here so when we had a baby and pandemic and everything we're like let's give this a try.
Mack Garrison (26:19)
Let's get out of the city. Too many people around us.
Hayley (26:22)
Yeah, so we moved to Vermont and it's really cool. I mean, I love that I'm able to be like live in the middle of the woods and do what I do like that everything can be remote now and you know sending files like you know if I have to you know go to New York or Boston or North Carolina like I can jump on a plane it's fine but it's so cool that I'm able to you know live in a rural place and
Mack Garrison (26:44)
Yeah, right.
Hayley (26:53)
I found it very inspiring to be, you in the winter, now I'm embracing skiing. So it's like, can go out, get some fresh air doing that. And then in the summer, it's just like a magical fairy land with like waterfalls and stuff.
Mack Garrison (27:08)
beautiful.
I've gotten as close, I haven't been to Vermont, so I'm a less need to get there. I've gotten to like New Hampshire and the White Mountains, so kind of over by the border. So I imagine it's pretty similar. Yeah, so I got up close. Very similar.
Hayley (27:15)
yeah, that's close. Yeah, Very similar. But
yeah, I think it's nice. mean, especially with stop motion, like, you need to be in a dark room, like, by yourself. And so it can, you know, feel kind of stuffy, you know, after animating for like 10 hours, sometimes straight. So like being able to pop outside and go on a hike or like go for a swim in the river is like...
really nice and like good for mental health.
Mack Garrison (27:48)
Oh, I
bet. I mean, I'm just imagining you kind of hunched over making all these little movements for hours on end. You probably stand up and you're like, oh my gosh, my back. I believe it. That's really cool. I've always had an affinity for nature myself and I feel like the juxtaposition of our digital world and what we're doing and being able to get outside is always like that nice reprieve and nice, nice refresh. You you mentioned earlier that you started in 2015. Congratulations on 10 years this year. That's amazing.
Hayley (27:53)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Thanks.
Mack Garrison (28:17)
Does
it feel like it's been 10 years? Do you feel like it's gone quicker than that? Or you're like, I can't believe I'm still doing this.
Hayley (28:22)
I think
it went pretty fast, I mean, I started in 2008, like, working with, like I said, like, different production companies and stuff, but, yeah, it's really cool. It's been 10 years, like, doing this on my own now, and, I don't know. Pretty proud of myself, I guess, for, like, sticking with it.
Mack Garrison (28:39)
I love it. Yeah. Well,
I read this book one time, I think it was Michael Gerber. was like why most small business or the E-myth, why most small businesses fail. And there was this whole book basically talking about some missteps you don't wanna make when you're starting a company. Someone gave it to me when I first started Dash. And a surprising statistic that I learned is that 85 % of small businesses fail within the first year of starting. So the fact that you've been around for 10 years,
Hayley (29:05)
Thank
Mack Garrison (29:06)
deserves a round of applause and a testament to the good work you're making. Here's
Hayley (29:07)
you.
Mack Garrison (29:11)
a good question for you. So you got 10 years now of running Shape and Shadow. know, thinking to someone who's maybe interested in stop motion animation or even just starting their own company, their own creative shop themselves, you know, what's some of the things that stick out to you over these 10 years that would just be important things to keep in mind as you're kind of going off on your own creative adventure? Anything come top of mind that you would give advice on?
Hayley (29:35)
I think not be afraid to pick people's brains. I'm so grateful to all the mentors that I've had that were older than me and had more experience and took me under their wing and weren't trying to keep any secrets. They were willing to help and offer advice. And I try to do the same thing to younger people now.
So think, yeah, don't be afraid to reach out to artists that you are inspired by. And I feel like the animation community as a whole is pretty friendly. And so, yeah, don't be shy with that. And then, yeah, I'd say for specifically stop motion.
Mack Garrison (30:15)
Yeah, 100%.
Hayley (30:31)
think it just requires patience and time and dedication to experimentation. thinking about what you love about stop motion, if you really love the craft of it and making the physical stuff that goes into it, like puppets and sets and all of that, you could pursue just being a fabricator. And there's a whole field of artists that work on the tiniest details.
and if that's something you want to pursue, there's like schools you can go to to learn, learn that. and if you want to, you know, be an animator, think, yeah, just like experimenting and, I think, you know, you can start out animating on your phone, but I would definitely advise getting Dragonframe software. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Mack Garrison (31:27)
yeah, that's like the go-to for stop motion, right?
Hayley (31:30)
And it's like very, it's a very affordable program that I think they just want, you know, to support the community and yeah, it's, it's amazing. It's like changed everything being able to like see what you're doing instantly. so yeah, yeah. Cause when I was learning, we animated on bolexes like and developed our film. Like we didn't, yeah, we didn't know like what.
Mack Garrison (31:46)
Not know you're going down a mistake route or whatever, right? Get it earlier. No, that's good.
my gosh.
Hayley (32:00)
We were supposed to be in the same Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, I think, like when I first started going out on my own, like after I worked at production companies, I was like, okay, I'm going to rack up a credit card and buy myself a DSLR camera, a tripod and some lights. And I'm just going to set up a studio in my house and like make stuff.
Mack Garrison (32:00)
You're like getting this, you're like, shoot, that's not gonna work.
guys.
Hayley (32:29)
And I am I Was I was like I really want to do music videos I'm gonna email some Artists I really like and see if they might want to do something and one that I emailed was like yeah sure that would be awesome um and They gave me like a little bit of money, and I made my first music video and from there it kind of just snowballs where you put your work out and people see it and then kind of just goes from there, so I think just like if you're into stop-motion like
setting up a studio with just the essential things if you can and just start working. Yeah, exactly.
Mack Garrison (33:05)
Go with the flow, kind of the trend of the conversation
today. I love that so much. Well, we've been speaking with Haley Morris with Shape and Shadow, an animation studio run by Haley Morris, an arts and animation director based in Vermont. And Shape and Shadow, they specialize in mixed media and stop motion animation, creating stories that come to life through rich textures, handcrafted details, and thoughtful storytelling. And thank you for the thoughtful conversation today, Haley. And if you want to see Haley, you want to learn more about stop motion, this is your cue.
Hayley (33:30)
Thank you.
Mack Garrison (33:34)
to go out and buy a Dash Bash ticket. We actually are doing workshops this year, which Haley will be leading an optional third day of workshops, June 11th through 13th, 2025 here in Raleigh, North Carolina. If you've never been to the Dash Bash, it's an inclusive motion design vessel that's built around bringing great people together for some great conversations. And especially as Haley is in Vermont, we're in Raleigh and all of you are spread across in the nooks and crannies around the world. It's a great opportunity to come out behind our computers,
Behind the layout where we're doing some stop-motion animation and come hang out for a few days So it's gonna be a lot of fun and Haley can't wait to hang with you this summer
Hayley (34:11)
Yeah, me too. I'm so excited to hang out with you and meet, you know, aspiring stop motion animators or, you know, just animators that want to like add this to their toolbox. yeah. Thank you.
Mack Garrison (34:23)
I love it, I love it. Thanks everyone, have a good one.
Ringling College of Art & Design Demo Duel Interview
In this conversation, Mack Garrison discusses the Dash Bash Demo Duel: a unique competition designed to showcase the talents of motion design students from Ringling College of Art and Design that will now be used at the Bash to highlight the best in the industry to crown a single champion! Guests Ed Cheetham and Dante Rinaldi share insights into the evolution of motion design education, the structure and excitement of the Demo Duel, and the importance of presenting work in a supportive environment. They emphasize the value of teaching in enhancing creative skills and the positive impact of community support in the motion design industry.
Takeaways
The Demo Duel is a competitive platform for showcasing student work.
Motion design education has evolved significantly over the years.
Teaching enhances both the educator's and students' creative processes.
The Demo Duel aims to reduce the intimidation of presenting work.
Community support is crucial in the motion design industry.
The competition format is designed to be engaging and fun.
Students are encouraged to prepare their Demo reels for industry recruiters.
Memorable moments from past competitions highlight the excitement and camaraderie.
The Demo Duel is expanding beyond the college to larger events.
Participation in the Demo Duel boosts confidence and industry readiness.
Chapters
00:00 Introduction to the Demo Duel
03:49 The Evolution of Motion Design Education
07:47 Understanding the Demo Duel
10:42 The Competition Structure
15:21 Engaging the Audience
18:11 Memorable Moments from the Demo Duel
19:47 The Future of the Demo Duel
24:11 A New Chapter
Transcript:
Mack Garrison (00:00)
Hey, what's up everyone? Mack Garrison here, co-founder and director of Content of Dash, and we're back with another Dash Bash speaker series. And I'm so excited to be talking today about the founders, essentially, of what we're going to be launching at the Dash Bash this year, which is the Demo Duel I've got with me two guests who are fantastic, got all the deets for you on what the Demo Duel is. We have Ed Cheetham. He's the chair, Department of Motion Design at Ringling College of Art and Design.
Ed Cheetham (00:00)
Hey, what's up everyone? Mack Garrison here, co-founder and director of Content of Dash. And we're back with another Dash Dash speaker series. And I'm so excited to be talking today about the founders, essentially...
We have Ed Cheetham from the chair, Department of Motion Design, and...
Mack Garrison (00:26)
And then I've also got Dante Rinaldi who is the owner of Inferno VFX and so glad to have y'all hanging with me today.
Dante J Rinaldi (00:33)
Thanks,
Max. Great to be here.
Ed Cheetham (00:34)
Thank you Mack, it's great to talk to you again
Mack Garrison (00:36)
Absolutely.
Now I know both of you, we've been chatting a lot over the past year and excited to bring what has been y'all's baby of this Demo Duel to life at the Dash Bash. But before we get into that and before we get into the Demo Duel, maybe we can take it back a little ways. And Ed, I'll start with you. How did you get involved with Ringling College of Art and Design and really this motion design industry?
Ed Cheetham (00:58)
Well, it's really interesting because when I started teaching, I found out that there was a position open that Ringling was starting a computer animation department. And so I was actually at Century 3 at Universal Studios in Orlando and a friend of mine said, you should go and apply, that you'd be great at it. And so I went and I interviewed and I was actually the first faculty hired for the computer animation department. And that was in 91.
And so we started computer animation and what we were doing was more motion design because Toy Story hadn't been even out yet. So feature length film animation wasn't an option. So we were doing animated typography and title sequences and infographics. And then when Toy Story came out, we realized that in order to get our students to that level of character animation, we had to focus only on character.
Mack Garrison (01:35)
Right.
Ed Cheetham (01:51)
So we pushed aside all the stop motion and all the typography and all the experimentation and solely focused on narrative character. And so, you know, I stayed with that department and, you know, some of my students worked on the first Toy Story. yeah, yeah, it's true. And so, you know, it grew and it grew and, you it was actually called Computer Graphics initially and then.
Mack Garrison (02:06)
Wow, is that right? That's crazy.
Ed Cheetham (02:15)
You know, we realized we had to focus it and we changed the name to Computer Animation. And so I left in 98 and went back into the industry and, you know, I hired the current department head, Jim McCamble. So he owes me one and I guess I owe him one because what he did was when Ringling wanted to expand the offerings, he said, you need to bring Ed back and we need to have
Dante J Rinaldi (02:29)
I'm sure.
Ed Cheetham (02:38)
at that time what was called a broadcast design department. And so we had a lot of meetings and it was like, we can't call it broadcast design. That's way too focused. It's more motion design. And at some point they let us have our way. And in some small little way, I'd love to know that the department was kind of involved in the definition of this industry. Because we were calling that back in 2005.
Mack Garrison (03:01)
Mmm.
Ed Cheetham (03:05)
And so, you know, little by little what happened was that we defined what a motion design curriculum should be. And unlike, let's say, other schools that maybe have started with fine art and they're doing a little bit of animation, or if it's a, you know, a graphic design department that's doing a little bit of movement, we started this department solely focused on getting students into a motion design studio. So I remember saying,
Mack Garrison (03:13)
Mm.
Mm, I love that so much.
Ed Cheetham (03:34)
Yeah, I remember saying to myself, if I could get some graduates at Imaginary Forces, I did my job. And so now we have tons of students that have worked with Imaginary Forces. And it's just so impressive to see where they've gone and the kind of effect they've had in the industry already.
Mack Garrison (03:39)
That's great. That's a good place to start.
Well, we've had full-time staff from Ringling. We've had interns from Ringling, y'all, produce some amazingly talented students. And I think what's really cool, Ed is just how much the college has evolved over the years as motion design has evolved. know, it's, in my opinion, one of the fastest changing industries. It's an industry of change. We're constantly adapting new technologies, new forefronts of creative and what we're trying to push. And so I love that even as you considered what the name
the the name should be as you're moving through it kind of followed the industry, which is really great. Well, let me turn it over to you, Dante. I'd love to know a little bit about your background, know, owner of Inferno VFX, maybe tell us a little bit about that and ultimately how you got connected with Ed.
Dante J Rinaldi (04:24)
Sure.
then kind of like a journeyman, I kind of went to different industries. I was in the video game, AAA video game industry for a while, doing first person shooters on consoles, stuff like that. That was a lot of fun. And then transitioned into visual effects with companies like Digital Domain, and that was actually down in Florida. And as you know, visual effects is pretty nomadic. You you're kind of all over the world. And when the studio was closing up, we were getting ready to say, okay, going to California, going to...
Canada, wherever, Nepal, who knows where the jobs are, they send you. And Ed called me up and he's like, hey, have you ever considered teaching? And I thought, this is kind of cool. I could maybe do this for a semester or a year. And I was there for 10 years, because it's just such an experience. mean, working with Ed by itself is incredible. Working at Ringling, just incredible. The students are incredible. And I found that.
Mack Garrison (05:01)
Sure.
Ed Cheetham (05:12)
Maybe.
Mack Garrison (05:13)
Wow.
Dante J Rinaldi (05:25)
the education, you because I never taught before, teaching enhances your work and then your work enhances your teaching. So it just kept, you you kept leveling up, you know, and like, you know, staying ahead of the emerging tech and say, what's going on out there? What can we do to bring this in and help the next generation of students progress and be competitive and all that? Just an incredible experience. So.
We're still, we worked real close with that and wringling and just love the experience and now we're all together here.
Ed Cheetham (05:49)
close with that and wringling and just love the experience and now we're all together.
Mack Garrison (05:54)
I love that so much and I
love what you said Dante about how when you get into teaching it makes you a better creative I can relate to that so much because it really forces you to focus on what you're doing and why Right so many times we take for granted how much what I've just done it this way and then you start to really think like okay Why am I doing this way? How did I break it down to get to this point to think through doing that and so when you can get better about describing that
Dante J Rinaldi (06:08)
Yeah. Yeah.
Ed Cheetham (06:09)
Exactly.
Dante J Rinaldi (06:18)
Yeah. Yeah.
Mack Garrison (06:22)
Not only does it make you a better creator, it makes you better for clients because you can explain the relationship. All that stuff is fantastic.
Dante J Rinaldi (06:27)
yeah, to
know something you have to explain it and if you can't explain it you really don't know it. And your students are going to be like, hey, where am I? How did this happen? You got to know a lot. So it's great and it's a challenge and it's just a ton of fun.
Ed Cheetham (06:41)
the things that is really important that Dante's bringing up is that, like, one of the misconceptions that people have is like, go into teaching and I'm stepping out of the industry. And that is completely wrong. You're actually stepping right in the middle of the industry because, one, you do have to keep up on everything. And so now you're responsible to...
make sure all your students know as much as they possibly can so it's your job to go out into the industry learn more make more connections get better at what you do and then once again teach so you know it I find it interesting it's like oh yeah I'll retire it's like no no we don't want people who are retiring here we want people that want to do more in the industry so you know
Dante J Rinaldi (07:19)
No, it's the opposite.
Mack Garrison (07:21)
Hahaha
Dante J Rinaldi (07:23)
if i had known it was that
much work, i probably would've ch- no, i'm kidding, but...
Ed Cheetham (07:29)
It's different skill set though.
Dante J Rinaldi (07:30)
It is,
it is.
Mack Garrison (07:31)
No, I love it so much. That's fantastic. Well, let's let's pivot a little bit and let's get into what this podcast is about today, which is the Demo Duel and what the heck is it? So maybe at a high level, I get one of you at or Dante just to run us through what is the Demo.
Dante J Rinaldi (07:47)
Well, it's Ed's baby, why don't you do it,
Ed Cheetham (07:49)
Well, the way it started here is that we wanted to make sure that the students, when they left, were fully prepared to enter into the industry. That's why we do everything. That's why we have the courses that we have. That's why we have the experiences that we have. That's why we have the faculty that have the experience that can prepare these students. gosh, I don't know, is it 2000?
2008 maybe? No, no, no. We started in 2009. So 2011, 12. What we wanted to do was to make sure that the students had their work presentable for their interviews and all the recruiters that were coming to Ringling because we have amazing career services and they have recruiters coming to the campus all the time. And I found that there were a number of students that didn't have their Demo reels ready.
Mack Garrison (08:40)
You're like, what are you doing? Come on, let's get it. They're all coming here. What are you doing?
Ed Cheetham (08:40)
And in fact, they were a little... Exactly.
But they were shy and they think, I can't do it. I can't do it. And so in the senior year, we have a class called Production Studio in which we really give the students the experience of what it looks like and what it's like working in a production studio. So they have like five projects that they have to complete in 15 weeks. So that's three weeks of project. They get to choose from like 50 different briefs and...
You know, we've tried to prepare them so they're ready when they go out into the industry. And so we made this as part of our requirements, is that you have to have a Demo reel ready. So when the recruiters come, you're prepared. And so it's scary. It's really intimidating showing your work in front of people. It's not an easy situation to...
to kind of reveal your work and have people look at it. Exactly. And so I will say this department is very supportive and the students really do look out for each other and support each other and encourage each other. And so I felt it was safe enough to create this kind of competition where everybody has to have a Demo reel by a certain time. And so that's part of future proof.
Mack Garrison (09:33)
course especially to the people that are the ones that are gonna be hiring you the people that you've looked up to for all this time
Ed Cheetham (09:59)
was that we had to have our Demo reels done before that because we're having recruiters here. And so, we thought, well, how can we make it fun? And that's part of our goal is because take away the scariness, make it fun. And so we kind of put this framework in and it was like, how do we show all the reels together and kind of celebrate everybody's successes? Because I'll tell you, even,
Even the ones that get voted out in the first round, they're very impressive. They're really good. And so it's great for the students to show their work and you have all the audience clapping and cheering them on.
Mack Garrison (10:36)
I love that
you mentioned the rounds maybe explain so you know there's rounds there's competitions what's it kind of look like?
Ed Cheetham (10:42)
Yeah, it's kind of like a bracketed competition. tennis competitions where they have multiple brackets. So the first round is head-to-head competition of two students. And so we have about 30 students or 32 students. So there's 16 initial competitions. So we have one against two. We play number one, then we play number two, and then we give the audience like 20 seconds to vote online on their phone, whether they want
that whether they think number one or number two should go on. It's all happening live. And so they have their phone and they choose which one and then we show the results and that winner moves to the next round. So we see all the Demo reels in the first round. And then we, the next round instead of 16 competition, now there are eight. So we go through those eight again and then it's four and then we go through those four then it's two. Then we go through those two.
Mack Garrison (11:12)
So it's all happening live, right? People are watching this, okay.
Mmm.
Ed Cheetham (11:37)
And then we start to narrow down to those last two, and those last two define the winner and the runner-up for the Demo Duel.
Mack Garrison (11:44)
my
gosh, it's so exciting. And I will say I have been to a future proof. have seen this live and it is amazing competition. The cheering that goes on is unmatched. It's really cool. Let's see Dante. Maybe, maybe you can pull up a little visual and kind of walk us through some of the bracket and what some of the technical stuff starts to look like.
Dante J Rinaldi (12:00)
Absolutely.
All right. So yeah, so the big thing is, how do you, when we first did this game, it's like, how do you actually vote? Do you raise hands? That could be chaos and anarchy. So we got together and we said, well, maybe we could try and figure out how to do this online. So I went ahead and this was a great opportunity to kind of learn some coding and some scripting and some back end stuff.
So I'm just gonna sign in to the Demo Duel. Now we call it Demo Duel for this one, but we call the product, the overall product video Duel with online voting. And we could make this available later on. But let me just jump in and just to give you an indication of what we're looking at. So if I sign in, it's gonna say, oh, here we go. Here is one of our brackets. Now this is a work in progress, so the screens are final.
Ed Cheetham (12:47)
Oh, here we go. Here is one of our brackets. Now this is a work in progress. So the screens are final.
Dante J Rinaldi (12:53)
But this talks about DemoDuel 2024. This is kind of like what we were playing last year. 30 players and you could do anything you want to. And if we launch it, you're going to see a bunch of pirates and people are like, what the heck's with the pirates? This is an important note that Ed failed to mention. He dresses in full costume for every one of these
Mack Garrison (12:53)
Sure.
Ed Cheetham (12:53)
It talks about Demo Duel 2024. This is kind of like what we were playing last year. 30 players and you can do anything you want to. And if we launch it, you're to see a bunch of pirates. are like, what the heck's with the pirates? This is an important note that Ed failed to mention. It says in full costume for everyone in
Mack Garrison (13:05)
haha
Dante J Rinaldi (13:10)
events. you know, last year he was a pirate and the theme was pirates and people had to come as pirates and really enjoy it and have a lot of fun doing that. And I think he lost his voice with all the R's that he was yelling out.
Mack Garrison (13:11)
There we go.
Dante J Rinaldi (13:22)
you know and throwing candy so that was just uh... but on the point yeah kind of fun
Ed Cheetham (13:24)
Come on Dante!
Mack Garrison (13:26)
There we go, Ed, now we're talking.
I love that people are just as excited for the Demo Duel as we are for Ed's costume change and wardrobe change.
Dante J Rinaldi (13:31)
Yes, it's one of the highlights
Ed Cheetham (13:32)
Well,
Dante J Rinaldi (13:33)
of future proofed. Absolutely.
Ed Cheetham (13:35)
it's got to be funny though. It's got to be fun because it's so intimidating having your work being evaluated. So if we make it a party kind of environment, everyone kind of assumes that this is going to be fun and happy and joyful. And that's why there's candy being thrown. There's clapping and make it fun. And I think the students really appreciate that.
Dante J Rinaldi (13:52)
Yeah, absolutely.
Mack Garrison (13:54)
I love it.
Dante J Rinaldi (13:56)
So this is what they see when they walk in, whether the theme is pirates or musketeers, and we've done a bunch of things. They see this on the big humongous screen. I know, Mack, you're gonna have a huge screen when this is happening. Yes! Love it! Yes! So I mean, just seeing your work on a wall like that is just worth the price of admission. Just be like, my God, it was so big and so loud. So that automatically makes things a lot of fun.
Mack Garrison (14:07)
yeah, the Dash Bash is going to have a nice big 30 foot screen, highest resolution possible, great premium audio is going to be amazing.
Ed Cheetham (14:10)
Woo!
Mack Garrison (14:21)
Ha ha ha!
Ed Cheetham (14:22)
Hahaha
Dante J Rinaldi (14:26)
So when people walk in, they see the splash screen here and they get the QR code. Because the biggest thing about this game isn't that you just sit there and raise hands or applaud. You get to vote in real time on your phone and we count the votes. That's, think, one of the biggest parts of this is that it's accurate to the audience or whoever around the world is voting. And then the audience gets to actively participate in the game instead of just watching someone's game. So they...
go to the QR code, which basically gives them on their phone a ballot. And they can choose the ballots when it comes up A, B, C, whatever, just A and B really, as they go through. So once we jump in, we get to begin the Duel. And it can go through a little animation. Last year we did a little animation where it populated all the names in, randomly, and people were getting excited, I'm matching up with that person or that person.
Ed Cheetham (14:59)
And they can choose the ballads when it comes up A, B, C, whatever that is. Just A, B really. As they go through it. So once we jump in, we get to begin the duet. And it can go through a little animation. Last year we did a little animation where it populated all the names in randomly and people were getting excited, oh I'm matching up with that person or that person.
Dante J Rinaldi (15:21)
And then we kind of glitched the whole thing out like the whole thing broke, which freaked everybody out. And then it came in nice and loud. Boom,
Ed Cheetham (15:22)
And then we kind of glitched the whole thing out like the whole thing broke. Which freaked everybody out. And then it came in nice and loud.
Dante J Rinaldi (15:29)
boom, boom, boom, boom. Just kind of playing with people's emotions because we're kind of evil. We're evil like that. that all. Yeah, it switches up. Boom, right? So this is kind of like halfway through the Duel itself. And this was a Duel of 30 students and 32.
Mack Garrison (15:32)
I love it. I love it. It's great. Just people just as soon as people think they know who they're competing against it switches up on them.
Dante J Rinaldi (15:51)
So some people got free passes, but basically what the gist is is in every round You see who's there and you can click on you know the battle itself Which brings up the two people they get avatars they get to import their names their videos all that kind of stuff We play the videos which I'll just click real quick and hit escape
So that was super impressive. Everybody's like, yeah, that's amazing. We play video B over here.
Ed Cheetham (16:15)
Yeah, that's amazing. We played video B over here.
Dante J Rinaldi (16:22)
That was very nice. And now people have to vote and then they get a timer. you know, screens are a little temp right now, the fonts are different. But then we put on the music that's like, you know, the Jeopardy music and people are really getting tense and nervous, whatever the case may be. Because, you know, it's nerve wracking. Absolutely.
Ed Cheetham (16:24)
And now people say it has to vote and then they get a timer. know, screens are a little tense right now, the font are different. But then we put on the music that's like, you know, the Jeopardy music and people are really getting tense and nervous, whatever the case may be. You know, it's, it's, it's, it's more of a record. You know, I will,
Mack Garrison (16:36)
guys.
Of course.
Ed Cheetham (16:41)
I will say how important the audio is because we have our, our sound designer and audio engineer here, Kelly Warner, and he plays music while this is going on and doing the countdown.
Mack Garrison (16:44)
Mmm.
nice.
Dante J Rinaldi (16:53)
Yes,
yes, yeah.
Ed Cheetham (16:54)
and all the fun effects, which is really
fun. He really enhances the whole experience.
Dante J Rinaldi (16:59)
So once the timer is over and all that's customizable to your game, you want 20 seconds, you want five seconds, whatever the case may be, then the big thing is behind the scenes after everybody voted on their phone, on their ballot, and like for example, this is bracket 11, I'll go to bracket 11, and I like B, so I'll do that, there's B, it's success. You can't like spam the vote, it goes away. You can't, you can even.
Mack Garrison (17:16)
Cool.
Mmm, that's it.
One vote and it's done.
Dante J Rinaldi (17:23)
It's done. If I refresh my phone and be like, no, you already voted, know, that kind of a thing. Sorry. Already voted. So we try and keep the cheating to a minimum. So then when you view the results, it's in real time and it says, whoa, who won? Nicholas won. Hooray. And so it's it's absolutely accurate to that. You go back to the bracket, automatically adds Nicholas in there and the fight goes on and everyone goes back and turns. It is.
Ed Cheetham (17:32)
You
Mack Garrison (17:33)
haha
I love it. It's the March Madness style bracket for motion design.
It's so
Dante J Rinaldi (17:53)
It is,
Ed Cheetham (17:54)
That's it.
Mack Garrison (17:54)
great. I love it. What do you feel like has been your favorite moment from putting these on Ed and Dante? Like, is there something that resonates, like a particular competition or a win that sticks out? Is there something that you just really gravitate towards when you think about this?
Dante J Rinaldi (17:54)
yes.
Ed Cheetham (18:11)
I remember one. And it was a good thing that we had our guest judges because the last round, it was tied.
Dante J Rinaldi (18:19)
Remember this.
Mack Garrison (18:22)
my goodness.
Dante J Rinaldi (18:23)
There was
a lot of people voting. It wasn't like 10 people. Yeah. And it came up perfectly even and said, there's a tie. And the crowd went nuts.
Ed Cheetham (18:25)
Yeah, mean, there's at least 150 people voting and it was tied.
Mack Garrison (18:33)
Wow.
Ed Cheetham (18:35)
And so we had we have a lot of recruiters that like to come for that evening because they can see everybody's work all at once right and so we had We had the recruiters come in and we had to make them Choose and there were two people from the studio It was Hue and Cry and so we had two people from the studio and they both picked the each one and so we split the prize so
Mack Garrison (18:52)
Nice.
You split it the co
Dante J Rinaldi (18:58)
Yeah.
Mack Garrison (18:59)
champions was that
the first ever co-champion that y'all have had for the Demo Duel. my gosh, how fun
Ed Cheetham (19:01)
Good.
That was, yeah.
Dante J Rinaldi (19:06)
We have like a trophy. I don't know if the trophy's around, to keep inscribing the names in the years of who wins the Demo deal, because it's gotten really popular on campus. It's like, you know, all the future proof week, the convention week is exciting, but Ed's invention of this game is like the highlight and the kids just go nuts, you know.
Mack Garrison (19:25)
I love it. Well, let me ask you all this. So it clearly has been such a big thing for Ringling. It's grown. Everyone knows about it. Everyone gets excited about it. How does it feel to see this start to evolve? know, coming out now at the Bash, it's going to be happening this year here and hopefully in the future, maybe even more places. How do you all feel seeing it kind of evolve elsewhere?
Dante J Rinaldi (19:47)
man, this is just awesome. This is like you're raising your little kid and then they're going off to college and now everyone's gonna see how amazing you think your kid is and that kind of thing. And when you came to us and you were at, I think last year, and you're like, hey, this is fun, this is cool. Let's bring this to our thing. And we're like, absolutely. And to see this thing out into the wild, and I can't wait to see how the crowd likes it because there's just so many.
Mack Garrison (20:02)
This is fun, it's great stuff.
Dante J Rinaldi (20:13)
avenues to explore with this type of format. It doesn't have to be just student reels. Like for example, Mack what you're going to be doing with this is a variation and there's infinite variations that people can say, I like this one versus that one. So that's just so exciting to see.
Mack Garrison (20:29)
I love it And you know what's interesting to me, and this is gonna put the industry on blast a little bit, they better be prepared and be ready to submit some good reels because the students, as we now know, Ed is making them submit for the Demo Duel. You know, it's free to enter the Dash Bash Demo Duel. So I expect to see some good wrinkling reels in there. And I tell you, there's a lot of experience, a lot of practice working and cutting together a reel. And I know our industry sometimes...
Reels kind of become on the back burner when you're doing projects for clients and you got all this thing going on. like, I got to cut together something. So we could see a potential Ringling or other student champion who is focused on reels if the industry doesn't show up, which could be really, really exciting, you know, I'm calling them out, calling you out industry. So maybe Ed, you mentioned this earlier, but I'll toss it back to you. Why do you think someone should enter? Cause you're right. This,
Dante J Rinaldi (21:09)
Yeah, yeah, you're calling him out. You're calling him out.
Mack Garrison (21:22)
is gonna be put on blast, you are gonna be at the event in front of all your peers. What do you think's the biggest takeaway? Why do you think anyone watching this video should consider entering the Dash Bash Demo Duel?
Ed Cheetham (21:35)
Well, know, like I experienced with the students, I think we're our worst self-critics, right? We just don't think our work is good enough. But when you separate yourself from it and you put your work out there, you realize, I'm pretty damn good, right? And, you know, I think you see your work with fresh eyes and you appreciate your work. And I think that's really kind of nice when you're able to sit back and go,
Mack Garrison (21:51)
Hahaha.
Ed Cheetham (22:03)
You know, yeah, I know what all the problems are. I know what all the struggles were. But when you don't have that baggage and you just look at your work, you know, you realize, I did pretty good. I really like that. And you know, everybody's clapping. Everybody wants to cheer. Everybody wants to support. I mean, that's the thing about this motion design industry that just blows my mind, you know, is that everybody wants to help each other. They share information. They support one another. And so I think that you might think it's
it's kind of negative, you know, if you don't win. But you just think, you see the response and it's positive response and you you get your workout in front of so many people and you realize, yeah, I'm pretty good. And it's gonna spark interest in at least one person and you never know where that's gonna go, you know.
Mack Garrison (22:47)
100 % 100
it's well said. You know, I think there's a reminder for us all that we are like you mentioned our own self critics our own best self critic, right? We we we are critical. We want to put out the best of the best but I think something that's a good reminder for us all is that sometimes perfection inhibits progress. We got to keep things moving forward. Put yourself out there. Stop and pause and not what you didn't do but look at what you have done and look at the reel
Dante J Rinaldi (23:14)
Yeah.
Mack Garrison (23:16)
Super excited. Well, everyone, thanks so much for tuning in and listening today. I've been chatting with Ed Cheetham. He's the chair, Department of Motion Design, Ringling College of Art and Design. If you don't know Ringling, you need to know Ed and you need to know the work that their students are producing. We've also got Dante with us as well. He's the owner of Inferno VFX and they have put together an awesome platform for the Demo Duel, which is gonna be launching at the Dash Bash this summer. So on our website, we're gonna end up having the top 16 reels compete live at the Dash Bash this summer.
Dante J Rinaldi (23:17)
Okay.
Mack Garrison (23:45)
for your chance to be crowned the Dash Bash champion. This is open to students, it's open to professionals, you need to submit, not as a studio, this is on you. So this is all the individuals out there submitting and we cannot wait to see all these reels that are submitted. Ed, Dante, thanks so much for hanging with me today. Thank you so much for walking through the Demo Duel and we cannot see, cannot wait to see what it all looks like when it comes together this summer.
Dante J Rinaldi (23:48)
Woo!
Yes.
Ed Cheetham (24:04)
Thank you, Mack.
Dante J Rinaldi (24:07)
Awesome
awesome. Thanks buddy awesome being here
Ed Cheetham (24:08)
That's great. you.
Mack Garrison (24:10)
Yeah, thanks everyone.
Aradhana Bejarano Interview
In this conversation, Mack Garrison interviews Aradhana Baharano, co-founder of Little Labs, an animation studio based in California. They discuss Aradhana's journey into animation, her education at SCAD, the transition from a creative role to a business owner, and the challenges of starting a studio. Aradhana shares insights on networking, mentorship, and navigating client relationships, as well as her excitement for the upcoming Dash Bash conference where she will be speaking about her experiences and the rebellious spirit of artists.
Takeaways
Aradhana's early inspiration came from a book on animation she found in middle school.
Her education at SCAD exceeded her expectations and helped her grow as an artist.
Transitioning from a creative role to a business owner requires delegation and embracing new responsibilities.
Starting Little Labs was a leap of faith, but they managed to keep Disney as a client.
Networking and mentorship are crucial for success in the creative industry.
Contracts are essential to protect against misunderstandings with clients.
Approaching client relationships as collaborations can ease tensions and misunderstandings.
Aradhana finds inspiration in various artists and believes in the power of community.
The Dash Bash conference is an opportunity for networking and inspiration.
Aradhana's talk at the Dash Bash will focus on her journey and the rebellious nature of artists.
Chapters
00:00 Introduction to Aradhana Baharano and Little Labs
03:00 Early Inspirations and Journey into Animation
06:00 Education at SCAD and Its Impact
09:00 Transitioning from Creative to Business Owner
12:05 Starting Little Labs: The Leap of Faith
15:01 Networking and Finding Mentorship
18:02 Navigating Client Relationships and Challenges
20:59 Preparing for the Dash Bash Conference
Transcript:
Mack Garrison (00:00)
All right, what's up all you Dash Bashers? Thanks for tuning into another episode of our speaker series where we're getting to know the speakers that are coming to the Dash Bash. And I'm so excited to have one of those speakers with us today. Aradhana Bejarano with Little Labs, the amazing animation studio based out of California. They got over a decade of experience working on animated content and interactive experiences. She's collaborated with brands such as Disney, Netflix, Google, Snapchat.
Meta and Khan Academy for Kids. mean, these are all just amazing brands to work with. Aradhana thanks so much for hanging out with me and chatting with me today.
Aradhana Bejarano (00:34)
I'm excited to be here. Thanks for having me.
Mack Garrison (00:36)
You know, I
think one good place to start is always kind of at the beginning because it's fascinating to me how everyone kind of gets into motion design. It's such an amalgamation of different backgrounds and experiences. Maybe you take me back to some of those like early animation memories you had where you were like, this is interesting. Maybe, maybe this is a career I might want to pursue.
Aradhana Bejarano (00:53)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, so I grew up in India and...
my introduction to animation was sort of in middle school. I was very, I love cartoons, I love watching animated films, I was really a nerd and geek about it, but it was one day in my high school, my middle school, in the school library, I came across this book, animation book, and it was like the only animation book in the library, and it was like the one, it was just the one, yeah, it was just the one I stumbled on.
Mack Garrison (01:22)
It was just the one, you just read it over and over again.
Aradhana Bejarano (01:27)
the one I would read every day from that fourth on, it was perfectly placed for me. And I read it and I was like, like a light bulb went off in my head. was like, I can actually do this. I love drawing. And it was like the aha moment. And I wasn't necessarily surrounded by people who knew about this. And that book sort of sparked my imagination. And so then I started looking for more information and going to bookstores. And I found the Animation Survival Kit by Richard Williams.
Mack Garrison (01:52)
yeah, that's a classic.
got a copy in here with the office with me.
Aradhana Bejarano (01:53)
That's a classic idea. Yeah,
exactly. And it was overpriced in India, so I couldn't afford it at the time with my pocket money. And I didn't want to share it. I wasn't ready to share it with my family because they, again, so I would just visit the store every week and like read politely as much as I could without purchasing it. I own it now. I have a copy and everything. so that was just my earliest memory of like, this is something I can do.
Mack Garrison (02:00)
no.
Nice, nice.
Aradhana Bejarano (02:20)
It like, it's like almost perfectly like it was meant to happen. I had to stumble upon that book to like learn about it and like, yeah, and get into it.
Mack Garrison (02:25)
How fun.
Absolutely, serendipitous
that you found at the moment that you did. So it sounds like, know, there's not a, at least at the time, wasn't a ton of folks around you in your space and your network knew much about animation. So you're growing up, you're learning about this stuff. You have this passion for it. And I believe you went to SCAD, if I'm not mistaken, right? So was that a big reason that you were like, I need to go check out the US to kind of try to find a path into animation. That's what led you to SCAD?
Aradhana Bejarano (02:36)
Mm-hmm. Mm-mm.
No.
Yes, I might just get...
it
Exactly, yeah, there wasn't a ton of schools or colleges around me. There was sort of like media studies, but not really animation specifically. There was a lot of schools to teach you software. So I did all of that while I was in high school. I also learned Photoshop and all the tools, but not necessarily the foundation to anime. And then it sort of became my goal. I started looking at the US and other colleges just outside of India in general.
Mack Garrison (02:59)
Mmm.
Mmm.
Aradhana Bejarano (03:23)
and SCAD ended up being the one I was the most, like it felt like the right place for me and also needed to be able to afford it and they offered scholarships so yeah, yeah, yeah and they do. it's gorgeous, the campus is amazing, I love that.
Mack Garrison (03:31)
Sure. Hey, there you go. Good scholarship is also really helpful. I love scat. It's so pretty down there. mean, I've gone down a few times for commotion. I think they do a great event. Yeah. Have you have you been to Savannah
before before learning of scat? Did you have any idea about Savannah?
Aradhana Bejarano (03:47)
I've never been to the US before
I came here so yeah it was it was I was just all in mm-hmm yeah I just I remember I painted on my wall I'm gonna get scared that's how I told my parents like this is how I'm gonna get scared you know of course I mean it was it was hard like having your child move across like thousands of miles and they had never been to the US before and
Mack Garrison (03:51)
So you were all in, you were like, I'm going to school here, I'm immersing myself, amazing, amazing.
that's so fun.
Aradhana Bejarano (04:11)
all of that. It took a little bit of convincing, but they eventually agreed to me. And I got a scholarship as well, partial, not full, but that helped as well. yeah, just like, I'm going to do this. This is my dream. I'm going to work.
Mack Garrison (04:15)
I love it.
I love it. Do you feel like
did SCAD sort of live up to those expectations? did what you were expecting in school for animation, was that what you got? Did you get more than you expected? What was that college experience like, especially being sort of an international student coming to the US?
Aradhana Bejarano (04:34)
Mm-hmm.
For me, mean, anything was more than I expected, I mean, you know, it's almost, I mean, coming from a different country, like I didn't have those opportunities. So me coming in on my mindset was, this is amazing. I'm getting to learn what I need to learn. And I had the best experience there. really, it really did help me spread my wings and learn about myself as an artist, but also as a human being and being just such an international college. You know, you meet people from all over the world. It just, it just expands your horizons in all different ways.
Mack Garrison (04:46)
Hahaha.
Aradhana Bejarano (05:12)
So that was great and all the professors were like well most of them I wouldn't say all but like I think there were really amazing professors that helped guide me through the process and honestly college really is like what you make up in I feel like Everyone has the experience that they make of it and so it gave Scott really gave you the tools to explore and then you do what you do with that and Take it out in the world
Mack Garrison (05:13)
I love that.
I love that.
Aradhana Bejarano (05:38)
And so.
Mack Garrison (05:38)
You're a great case study for the university. They're gonna see this video and want a copy of it, because all these are amazing things. But you're right though, I think when you find good mentors that can help support you and guide you, I look back at my time at NC State University, and it sounds very similar to how you look back at SCAD. It's like you get out of it what you put in. So if there's any students listening to this interview we're talking about.
Aradhana Bejarano (05:42)
You
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Mack Garrison (06:02)
You know, it's lean in, talk to your professors, get to know them, ask people around you for that assistance and support because it seems like that sets you up on a great trajectory and of course, eventually in starting your own company with little labs.
Aradhana Bejarano (06:10)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, well, thank you. Yeah, and also, SCAD
so than a lot of the other colleges that I have noticed and interacting with other folks not having worked in the industry. Just like having those conversations like we do have like did have like classes where you're like working on your portfolio, working on your video, you have those conversations pretty early on. So you can you know you're learning all the foundations and basics. I did my undergrad not my post grad at SCAD and so a lot of it is just foundations but you know at some point teachers like and the professors do start talking to you but but how do
want to apply this in the professional world and those conversations really helped me figure out where I need to be. yeah. Yeah, no worry. Yeah, okay.
Mack Garrison (06:52)
I love it. That's fantastic. Well, I don't want to spoil too much from the actual presentation at the Dash Bash this summer. So I'm going to fast forward a little bit. Little Labs exists. You guys are crushing
it. You make some amazing work. In my opinion, it's some of the best that is out there in our space. What I'm really curious about is something that I've personally struggled with and I want to know if you've navigated that and it's being the business owner and less of the creative. How have you navigated this shift?
Aradhana Bejarano (07:06)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Mm.
Mack Garrison (07:18)
that I'm sure you're navigating from like the person who's making this stuff to doing this stuff to now being the entrepreneur. What's that been like?
Aradhana Bejarano (07:18)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
It's been a journey. think when we started off, was, you know, myself and my partner Camila who started the studio. We were doing everything. And it's been a journey like starting to delegate and hand off those things because those are not sustainable eventually. And I've sort of embraced this role of now my role at the studio is different. I'm the creative director and also the business owner. And I delegate everything else. So I am managing people a lot more than I used to. And actually now
embrace it and love it because that's my genius and that's where I'm at in my career at the moment and my my role is more to guide everybody and help them create the best work and so that's that's that's just what I've embraced and I feel like probably you have as well yeah yeah
Mack Garrison (08:11)
yeah, it's interesting because
like I think at a foundational level, once you are a designer and a creative, you were just naturally built around this idea of problem solving. And all you're doing when you're running a company is essentially trying to solve problems in creative ways. And so it's different problems, right? So you got these teams that need this information and you're trying to get them the right direction, say the right things to get them in the right place. Quick question for you with Camilo, your partner.
Aradhana Bejarano (08:20)
Mm-hmm.
Right, it's different problems. Yeah, right, yeah.
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Mack Garrison (08:37)
Have you all always
Aradhana Bejarano (08:37)
Mm-hmm.
Mack Garrison (08:37)
been collaborators? Have you always kind of worked together and this was a natural extension in starting the studio or how that all kind of come to fruition?
Aradhana Bejarano (08:42)
Yeah,
so it's kind of cliche like to meet your life partner at work in this industry because you work so much but that's how we actually met. We met at
Mack Garrison (08:48)
Yeah
Aradhana Bejarano (08:53)
Disney while I was working at Disney. And so we were always sort of working together in a sense. And then what sparked the little labs was you would start collaborating outside of work on things just, you we were having fun with because, you know, at work you do the work that you're told to do. And so you go home and explore. And so that just sparked like our collaboration efforts outside of the Disney work environment. And it just spin and grew into what the little labs is today.
Mack Garrison (09:08)
Sure, right, right.
How fun,
Aradhana Bejarano (09:21)
Yeah. Yeah.
Mack Garrison (09:21)
I love that. Well, it is, the natural progression, right? So you're working together all the time and it's like, well, we might as well just be partners then as well too. That's right. Yeah, exactly, exactly. Well, is with the labs part, what's interesting to me is like, you know, have your day-to-day job at Disney, you kind of have this labs piece where you all are collaborating on the side. Is their intentionality and calling little labs, I mean, is that an extension from that, you know?
Aradhana Bejarano (09:28)
Yeah, right? Yeah. And not with everybody. So yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
it is. Yeah. So the part little came from, know, we were working at large companies and corporations before and this was our space to be little and small.
and we love that, like that's us. And then the labs part was us experimenting outside of our day to day. And that just spin ball into the little labs in that we're, and it is in the sense of what we, who we are now as a team, as we've grown as well, we're always experimenting, always pushing our boundaries as a team and being playful. And that's where the roots of the name come in.
Mack Garrison (10:17)
Mmm.
Oh,
I love it. It's so fun. I'm always curious from folks who are, you know, creatives in house that then end up moving into starting their own agency or studio. Was there like a signature event or a project? I'm always curious. Like what, was it like, oh, this is maybe a little bit more than just a side project. Like maybe this is something we want to do full time.
Aradhana Bejarano (10:28)
Mm-hmm.
With us it was sort of like we took the leap honestly. We yeah, it was was sort of like we we just jumped off not knowing if we have a parachute or not and we're like I mean, yeah, we and we did you know thankful that we ended up having a parachute we were able to keep Disney as a client for us when we when we left the company But we honestly were just just ready to go on figure out our new path We it's sort of like I reached our goal
Mack Garrison (10:44)
Yeah, nice.
I love that analogy, that's great.
Aradhana Bejarano (11:09)
know, a dream, like we worked at Disney and it was like, what's next? What is the next challenge? And we were young enough, I guess, and naive enough to like take that, like, we can do it, yeah. That's right, yeah, exactly. Yeah.
Mack Garrison (11:18)
Yeah, we can do it, right? You know, not thinking about all the other pieces to it. That's so fun.
I feel like, you know, I would echo that same sentiment. You know, when we started Dash, we were both young and in our 20s and probably we're not thinking about all the other pieces that come with it. But let's say for someone who is, let's say there's a listener out there who has been working somewhere, they've been freelancing, and the idea of a studio or starting this collective sounds really, really good to them.
Aradhana Bejarano (11:34)
Right. Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Mack Garrison (11:46)
What's
a piece of advice that you might give them, either based on something you've learned now, you wish you could have done, or something you're really proud of? What would you share for someone thinking about starting their own shop?
Aradhana Bejarano (11:50)
Yeah.
I think making sure that you have the resources to delegate, I think that was like a biggest learning for us on our site that we started to burn out pretty quickly trying to tackle everything ourselves. So whether it's financial resources or just people you can lean into and ask questions, we didn't think that through when we started off. ended up, it was almost like we have a fire. We need to find somebody to talk to you about this. And so perhaps if you have like a network of people
Mack Garrison (12:21)
You
Aradhana Bejarano (12:25)
you can lean into to kind of help you troubleshoot, or whether it's consultants or things like that. And then of course like a client base, like knowing that you you have some sort of confidence in a client base, like you have maybe had conversations with before you jumped in, that could that could be helpful as well.
Mack Garrison (12:40)
Mm.
Yeah, I think you're
right. I mean, I look back and you know, there was definitely the jump in and commitment similar to you all and how we started, but we did have some work that we brought into it. Like we were kind of moonlighting on the side. We had something similar to like the little labs where we were doing some stuff from the work on the side. So it wasn't jumping into nothing. So I think that's important. You also hit on something else that I just, you know, profoundly believe in is mentorship. It's close friends in the space who have navigated it.
Aradhana Bejarano (12:54)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Mm. Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Mack Garrison (13:11)
think there's always a bit of a question mark on, you how do I find a mentor? How do I meet some of these other people? Did you go to a bunch of events? Like, how did you start to network and get to know folks who you had some of these tougher questions to ask?
Aradhana Bejarano (13:11)
Mm-hmm.
Right.
I wish I had a good answer. would have gone to that. I wish Dash Bash was there and I could have gone to that, right? Yeah, yeah. For us, it was slightly different because we were actually leaving a different industry and coming into motion design with this sort of like move. We were in the animation and interactive space. And so we really did just jump off the cliff hoping we'll land into a parachute. We were like sort of freelancing a little bit with studios in the LA area. So we had some of a network and that sort of
Mack Garrison (13:42)
Ha ha.
Cool, okay.
Aradhana Bejarano (13:50)
were able to build off of that but definitely I would recommend like networking and events and going to some of those either in your local community or area or conferences like Dash attending those.
Mack Garrison (14:02)
I think, you know, it's interesting
because I remember when I was getting out of school and I would imagine maybe, you you felt the same way. We were kind of intimidated. It's a big industry. Like, where do I even begin with this? And what I have learned in talking to folks like you and other creatives is just how welcoming everyone really is. And I think a lot of artists just don't recognize right away, just if you reach out, you know, there's a good chance that someone could respond to you.
Aradhana Bejarano (14:10)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Oh, 100%. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Mack Garrison (14:28)
So in that lens, know, I'm always curious just, you know, who are some of the various artists that inspire you? Who has inspired Little Labs over the years? Who are folks that you still are enamored by their work on day in, day out?
Aradhana Bejarano (14:36)
Mm-hmm.
Oh, such a hard question because I feel like, you know, we're all inspiring each other all the time. so there were definitely Ye House was a studio back, you know, I mean, Michigan. Yeah. And they were also husband and wife too. And so they always inspired us to take the leap. And we actually reached out to them and Camila was more connected to Michelle at the time as well. And we kind of were able to ask them questions and help out.
Mack Garrison (14:46)
Mm, sure.
yeah, up in Michigan, right? Yeah, yeah.
Aradhana Bejarano (15:11)
help us out and they were super inspiring to us over time. I mean, almost like everybody in the, even the work I see now, you know, inspires me a lot. On just an all time base, like any artist, like, you know, who's like following their path, being truthful to who they are always inspires me. looking back historically, like Frida Kahlo, Mary Blair, like those, those artists are always very empowering and inspiring for me. Yeah.
Mack Garrison (15:18)
yeah.
Mmm.
You know what's funny is I think
I actually reached out to Michelle at yet house at 1.2 I was randomly up in Romeo just which is a small town just north of Detroit and they're they're close by to it I forget the exact name of where they are, but they're up near there and I was like hey Michelle I'm in town I'd love to come see your studio and I don't know if they've ever had someone like properly come visit their studio So we tried to make it happen Didn't quite work out but they make some amazing work and enter just the nicest people in the world, too
Aradhana Bejarano (15:40)
Mm-hmm.
yeah.
Oh wow. They do. They are
so nice and we've just had a friendship. We've actually never met in person to this day and just we haven't had the opportunity. We either like missed each other or didn't couldn't couldn't make it work but one day. Yeah.
Mack Garrison (16:04)
really? that's so funny.
One day,
I know it's funny for anyone that's like not in our industry when they're like, oh, you're to go hang out with your internet friends. It's like, look, I promise they're really cool. I may not have met them in person, but they're the best. 100%, 100%. You know, I think one thing that you've definitely recognized probably is being a studio owner and I have as well is just our industry is kind of a wild uncertain place. You know, the longer you're in it, the more you can kind of see the volatile swings, the ups and downs.
Aradhana Bejarano (16:20)
They are, and they always are. I mean, it hasn't like disappointed me. So yeah,
Mack Garrison (16:41)
I would imagine that you've got some pretty good stories from over the years. I'm always curious on a good industry story, whether it was like a crazy project you finished, you didn't know you were gonna be able to get done or stuff that went totally off the rails. Do you have a good industry story you could share with folks today?
Aradhana Bejarano (16:45)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Yeah, plenty, but I'll stick to this one without naming names. We had this one client several years ago, right, when we were just starting out and they wanted like all this stuff from us. built, you know, they were launching this new brand. So we did a bunch of branding work, character work, even like toy design.
Mack Garrison (16:58)
Okay, six to one. Perfect, that sounds good.
Aradhana Bejarano (17:15)
We were just starting off as a studio and contracts were not, we weren't like masters of contracts, but because a colleague had recommended us, we sort of slipped on kind of getting the contracts really signed off because they were kind of skirting the issue. were like, oh, we'll get it done. they were like, know, business is always done with a handshake, you know, and which it is, but it was one of those moments which looking back, I'm like, why did we go through with this? But because they were highly recommended.
Mack Garrison (17:26)
Mmm.
boy.
Sure.
Aradhana Bejarano (17:45)
by a colleague we trusted we went ahead and did all this work delivered it and when it came time to payment they were like well you didn't really meet our expectations and and and all throughout we got all this good feedback thankfully we had all of the emails and things to kind of prove that there wasn't a miss because there wasn't really a miss or ever communicated to us that
Mack Garrison (17:54)
no.
Aradhana Bejarano (18:06)
that we had not met their expectations. It all ended up sorting out at the end, but it was a huge learning for us to make sure you have your contracts and stuff all in a row. So it was a little bit our fault, but also, you do kind of come into these situations sometimes where clients want to start a project without signing off a contract. And it's like, as a business owner, you have to make those decisions of how do you make that?
Mack Garrison (18:08)
Right, right.
gosh.
Ugh.
Oh, 100%. Like even as you're telling this story right now,
I'm sitting here thinking about one of our early missteps was the same deal. was like, didn't quite have everything outlined in the contract, had a client that really didn't want to pay us at the end. I think the way that we finally got paid, I'm not proud of this, but I basically called this person every day and was leaving messages that I'm going to call you every day until you pay this. And I think we negotiated.
Aradhana Bejarano (18:38)
you
Mm. Mm. Mm.
you
Mack Garrison (18:56)
a 70 % payment or something like that. I was like, look, if you pay 70%, I'll never call you or talk to you ever again. So, you just, yeah. And I think it's also a good reminder though too, is like even in the lens of the story, y'all were doing everything right. You were doing everything by the books for the most part. You glazed over this little piece and there was still kind of a little bit of a friction point. And I think that's a good reminder for creatives out there that if you're ever feeling like, golly, it's what did I do wrong? A lot of times you are doing it right. And sometimes this stuff just bubbles up, right?
Aradhana Bejarano (19:02)
Right, yeah, he's just chasing clients to make payments.
Mm.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm. Right.
100%. And a lot of times you're working with clients who are not maybe in the industry and know how things are done. And a lot of it becomes having the confidence to educate or like standing your ground on what are your boundaries and limitations.
Mack Garrison (19:40)
You know,
this opens the door to a good question, I think, is how do you and Camilo react or how do you handle a situation that maybe feels tense? Like if something comes up and the client's like, I don't know, maybe they're unhappy about something or something was miscommunicated, but you can tell there's those moments every now and then where it's like, ooh, this doesn't quite feel right. Do y'all have like a playbook or something that y'all do when those situations arrive? What's kind of like your go-to solve for kind of easing some of that burden?
Aradhana Bejarano (19:52)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Usually it's like taking a breath and just hopping on a call and just leaning things out, leaning into our producer as well and like helping them come in. So we're really coming in as a team to service the client at the end of the day and provide the best solution. So we always start with that and we lay out that, you know, we're here to do great work. We're here to navigate this together. And we always look at our clients as collaborators.
Mack Garrison (20:21)
Hmm.
Aradhana Bejarano (20:31)
So that's really the mindset we go into with every meeting and so as friction comes up or there's misunderstandings we we always approach the conversation with that mindset and So far clients are usually very receptive to that because you're wanting to work together Honestly, yeah
Mack Garrison (20:46)
Yeah, 100%. I love that so much. I mean, it really is.
There's kind of an age old stereotype, think, you know, in creative versus clients. But really, to your point, if you think about folks as collaborators, as partners, then when there is a misunderstanding, it just becomes easier to have those conversations. So yeah, I love that a lot. Go ahead. Yeah.
Aradhana Bejarano (20:53)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. And I will say one thing.
There might be a client that maybe is not responsive to that. And in that case, you do have to set your boundaries. And we're like, this is hard. But we honestly, 99.9 % of the times, we haven't had those kind of situations because we come with that mindset. Mm-hmm.
Mack Garrison (21:20)
Which is good. And I think like there's
also to the latter point you said is like, you you got to put your foot down every now and then it's, you know, you should feel confident in decisions you make. You know, I think we all are sometimes a little bit hard on ourselves, you know, wish we should have handled this differently or we could have, you know, in this instance of that particular example, we should have done the contract this way. You know, one of the nice things about making these mistakes that you and I have made is that we learn from them and you never do them again, right? You know, no one's perfect. You figure it out, you kind of move forward, which is good stuff.
Aradhana Bejarano (21:26)
Mm. Mm.
Right.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Right, yeah exactly.
Mack Garrison (21:48)
So let me ask you this, you're coming to Raleigh later this summer, what do you think are you most excited about for the conference? Is it getting up on stage? Is it meeting other people? I'm curious to know what gets you excited about the bash.
Aradhana Bejarano (21:59)
I'm just, you know, in the past years I've realized the benefits like of being at a networking event such as Dash and just the connections and relationships you make. So I'm really excited to meet people and hear the other speakers. Of course, I will be speaking as well, which I'm excited for. But more than anything, just every conference that I go to, I leave just feeling so inspired and empowered and looking forward to what I can learn from that experience.
Mack Garrison (22:05)
yeah.
Sure, sure.
I love that. And I echo that same sentiment.
know, I think conferences are one of the few opportunities where we mentioned earlier, we get together with all our internet friends to hang out and talk shop with people who know about it, which is really good. Well, let me let me do this. What do you think if you're giving a pitch to someone who has who is unfamiliar with little labs and you and your work, what would the pitch be on why they should come see you at the bash?
Aradhana Bejarano (22:27)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm that too, right? Yeah
Mm-hmm.
Sure, so my journey has been a lot about rebellion in one way or the other based on my cultural upbringing and coming to the United States and being where I'm at today. So part of my talk will be navigating that through my experience and I'm excited to share that. I think as artists, we're all sort of rebellious in one way or the other. And I talk a little bit about how I...
I transfer that into the work I do today. So I'm excited to share that and yeah.
Mack Garrison (23:17)
I love it. Love a good little rebellion in the art world. It's going to be great. We're super excited to have you. Just want to give a quick shout out and thank you to everyone who tuned in today. Aradhana Bejarano, thank you so much for the little labs and join us at the Dash Bash. If you haven't gotten a ticket yet, folks, and you're listening to this, what are you doing? Dash Bash is from June 11th through 13th, 2025. It's going to be right here in my hometown of Raleigh, North Carolina. It's big enough where there's always something to...
Aradhana Bejarano (23:20)
Yeah.
Mack Garrison (23:42)
and it's small enough where you run to folks around town and you'll definitely run into a lot of animators and motion designers here that weekend. So if you haven't got a ticket, grab it now. Thanks so much for joining us today, Aradhana, and so excited to have you here shortly with Little Labs. It's gonna be great.
Aradhana Bejarano (23:56)
Looking forward to it. Again, thank you for having me. Can't wait to see you and everybody else.
Mack Garrison (24:01)
Same, sounds good.
Thanks everyone.
Reece Parker Interview
Ahead of his 2025 Dash Bash talk, Reece Parker and Mack Garrison chat about Reece's journey from a self-taught animator to a professional in the motion design industry. He discusses his early passion for drawing, the transition to animation, and the challenges he faced in finding work. Reece emphasizes the importance of mentorship, the need to adapt to industry changes, and the value of genuine passion in attracting clients. He also reflects on his creative influences, the exploration of new avenues like tattooing, and the excitement of future projects.
Takeaways
Reese prefers authenticity over trying to sound cooler.
His journey into animation began with a love for drawing.
He taught himself motion graphics out of desperation.
Cold emailing led to his first freelance job.
Mentorship played a crucial role in his development.
Passion for work attracts clients and opportunities.
Adapting to industry changes is essential for growth.
Inspiration can come from various creative fields.
Tattooing has similarities to motion design in terms of artistry.
The importance of being confident yet humble in new spaces.
Chapters
00:00 Introduction to Reese Parker
01:43 The Journey into Animation
05:11 From Hobby to Profession
10:44 Finding Mentorship and Guidance
15:32 Adapting to Industry Changes
20:00 Creative Stories and Experiences
22:45 Inspiration and Influences
25:43 Exploring New Creative Avenues
29:55 Looking Ahead to the Future
Transcript:
Mack Garrison (00:00)
Hey, what's up y'all? Mack Garrison here with Dash Studio and boy, do I have a good one for you today. I'm hanging out with a talented Reece Parker doing an interview for our Dash Bash Speaker Series. Reece is incredibly talented, also a nice guy, but Reece is a creative person making art for cool people and businesses, directing, illustrating, animating. He's uneducated, lacks any in-house experience and works way too much and has been riding solo for the last nine or so years.
guessing his way through it and loving every minute of it. I'm just reading that off Reece's bio, but Reece, welcome to the podcast, the video cast. You gotta explain yourself a little bit on that introduction and like why those were the choice of words to start us off.
Reece Parker (00:47)
Yeah, I'm happy to be here. Thanks for having me, Mack. I'm excited to chat and just be involved, honestly. I think, yeah, I don't know. The intro is like, I'm a very let my work do the talking kind of a guy, I think. So when it comes down to making a bio, it just felt very real. And I guess that's what I prefer over maybe trying to make myself sound cooler than I am. If I want to look cool, go watch my work. And some people think that makes me look cooler.
You
Mack Garrison (01:17)
Dude,
it is very cool work. And I also just love the authenticity. I think it speaks a lot to your personality. I've been lucky enough to know you now over the last like nine or 10 years that I've been running the studio. But yeah, there's a lot of folks who are listening and this might be their first time finding out who the heck Reece Parker is. So maybe you could just kind of take us back to like some of the early days, you know, like how did you get into animation? What is it?
Reece Parker (01:27)
Yup.
to.
Mack Garrison (01:43)
what part of animation really excites you and what's some of the work you're doing today.
Reece Parker (01:49)
Yeah, good question. Growing up I was always drawing. I feel like I've said this story too many times, I'll abbreviate, but like...
classic kind of creative story. didn't like math. I liked drawing. So there were times like in school, I would maybe fail the math test, but flip it over and draw a portrait of my teacher and they would hang it up on the wall. Like literally that did happen. And I think that that's just like represents kind of my journey growing up. But animation, like we would have sticky notes in class in like second grade and we were doing flip books and I was really into the YouTube stick figure fighting kind
era, you know, I don't know if you remember that. Yeah, that was big, big. So I had Flash and like just kind of dorked around on it when I had time growing up. Among other creative things, I painted grip tape. That's like the stuff you put on top of skateboards. I I would sell that. did paintings and graphite portraiture and just all types of creative stuff. And then I...
Mack Garrison (02:31)
Sick. Excellent. Of course.
yeah, nice.
Reece Parker (02:58)
You know, I was really good at it, but I was also like suburban home, you know, not in like a creative city per se, very like go to college. Just outside of Seattle, a little suburban town called Maple Valley. Yeah, 30 minutes away.
Mack Garrison (03:09)
Sure. Where are you from originally Reece? Where'd you grow up?
Seattle. nice. Excellent.
Shout out to Maple Valley listeners.
Reece Parker (03:19)
Maple Valley.
So I didn't have my eyes on the future of where is the creative work. I was mostly like, I do it because I love it and I probably won't get to do it as I become an adult. And then I just found my way to like...
being intro to motion graphics. Like I saw like a commercial for Coca-Cola or something that I think Seth Eckert did who runs the furrow. So there was morphs and it was like, I was like, whoa, this is cool. Yes.
Mack Garrison (03:39)
Mmm.
yeah.
You're like, whoa, what the hell is this? Like,
what is this?
Reece Parker (03:54)
Exactly. I was like, uh, I want to do that. Whatever that is. And so I learned like exactly that. And I didn't know motion graphics was whiter than just that. was like, that was what I want to do. So I learned After Effects and I learned shapes and I learned kind of those things. And I also brought my years of sketching and drawing and illustrating into kind of that. And then over the years, it sort of shaped my voice, I think, in motion. I don't Yeah.
Mack Garrison (04:21)
that's really cool. mean, like honestly,
I think with our industry, I heard this term from this graphic designer back in the day. His name was like Edward Tufte. And he talks about this like capital T theory, which I really like. It's like, we started this one point and there's like interest. for you could have been illustration. Like I love dueling, love drawing. Then you hit this T, like the capital T part of it. And it's like, Ooh, maybe I can put this in motion. So then you're starting to play around with motion or Ooh, maybe I can direct motion. You're directing. So basically you have all these T's.
Reece Parker (04:37)
Yeah.
Mack Garrison (04:49)
that make you unique. And I think motion design in our industry is probably the best collection of all these capital T's out there with these different backgrounds, different experiences. When did you know that like, like this isn't just a fun hobby, people will pay me for it. Did you have like a first job? Did you like kind of seek it out a little bit?
Reece Parker (04:51)
Yeah.
Well, I mean, again, the time where I ran into motion design, I was at sort of a critical point in just in my personal life. was skateboarding a lot. was graduated from high school. I was not in college or on a path to sort of buff the resume in any way at all. So I was like, once I recognized that, Coke hires artists to do work like this, I was like, okay, I'm just going to do that. And so I worked for like overtime for a
year, like kind of 16 hour days just non-stop just teaching myself out of really like desperation. Because again I'm coming at it like I clean bathrooms at Taco Bell and ride a skateboard. Like this isn't my world. I don't understand this world. So if I can teach myself how to do it and be that good maybe I can get hired. And so at a certain point I had like personal works and like a little portfolio built of no client work whatsoever and I'm just
just cold emailing like jobs off of job boards, not even motionographer, I don't even know that exists yet. It's like indeed and like other general job boards like I could do the work, I could do it and then finally like somebody hired me freelance for like 20 bucks an hour. I didn't know what a day rate was, I didn't know how to charge, I knew nothing. Yeah, yes.
Mack Garrison (06:28)
Sick.
didn't know the process, know anything. You were like, they just need an animation. I gotta make this sucker
for them.
Reece Parker (06:36)
Yes,
and they literally held my hand through it. I think because I was so cheap, they taught me how to do some of it. was really, it's a small little agency in New York. I forget the name of it now, but I hadn't kept up with them. Yeah.
Mack Garrison (06:41)
Wow. Was it a studio? Was it a company? An individual? what? Cool.
That's so funny. so basically
at the time you're working at Taco Bell more or less as a janitor doing animation stuff on the side and you're like, I've got to basically bust my ass on this because I don't have any education on it. It's all self-taught. And so if I'm going to win the opportunity, it's got to be through hustle essentially. Wow.
Reece Parker (07:10)
Absolutely. Yep. Just showing up, doing
the work, learning, and I was so excited and like in love with it that it's a lot of work, but it just felt like necessary. Like absolutely. Yeah, just driven.
Mack Garrison (07:23)
There's a whole generation of kids who could be looking to this listening to this videocast and they're like cool I'm not going to school. Thanks for race. You just ruined all these parents hopes and dreams No, no
Reece Parker (07:32)
I hope not. Yeah, do what you,
yeah, yeah, do what makes sense for you, you know.
Mack Garrison (07:37)
I mean, I think that is a really interesting conversation point though with so many different fields out there that do require a certain degree of higher education. I think motion design has been one of the most amenable and like welcoming kind of everybody. So you get this first kind of gig with a small agency, you would kind of crafted a smaller portfolio website of just some personal explorations.
Did you find that that first gig like really almost opened a door? was like as soon as like almost you had a client project kind of grounded in it that kind of build off of itself.
Reece Parker (08:12)
Yeah, I mean eventually it did it was a bumpy early road For your knowledge, I didn't want to just jump in freelance. I did that because I had to I asked for Internships and like staff jobs and just couldn't land anywhere because I was so Like raw talent, but no knowledge and that was a barrier that was not allowing me to pass like I was getting interviews in Seattle for like
Mack Garrison (08:19)
Mmm.
Reece Parker (08:39)
weird like leadership role like my skill set was beyond my knowledge meaning people saw my work and put me here and then expected me to be here and so i would come in for interviews and be like an intern and so it was like i couldn't land anywhere because they didn't know how to read me yes yes
Mack Garrison (08:45)
Mmm.
You had this raw talent that was like exceptional,
but you had no of the supplemental information to go along with that. So people were like, how is this guy this good, but has no idea about process or organization.
Reece Parker (09:01)
Yeah, exactly, exactly.
Exactly, and I only know that in retrospect with the information I have now, but I didn't get it at the time. I was like, just like, yeah, I could do the work. And anyway, I couldn't get a job anywhere. So I had to be freelance. And then eventually, like one odd job led to another odd job. six months later led to another one and there was huge gaps in between. And then I got an email from Buck, like my first year in like down the line. And that changed everything. Once I went to go work with them in LA, they flew me
I was in studio for a few weeks. I was like booked ever since. Yeah, yeah.
Mack Garrison (09:45)
That's crazy. It's like
an actor who gets the first big gig, right? It's like, oh my God, this is it. Don't mess this up, Reece, you gotta stay focused. I love that. When I was coming along, I think a lot of people experienced that. It's really relatable in the sense that no one ever truly knows all the right process stuff. I mean, I remember my first gig I had at an agency. I remember this guy over in the corner basically yelling like, who the hell is Mack Garrison?
Reece Parker (09:50)
Yes.
Yeah. Yeah, that's exactly. Yeah, yeah.
Mack Garrison (10:14)
And what is wrong with this project file? And I had to like sheepishly raise my hand and admit that I had like comp one, comp two, comp three, layer one, layer two, was atrocious. But what was really nice about this Reece is that he took time and went through and basically showed me the way that stuff should be organized. And I'm forever grateful of it. Like, you know, I know he was upset at the time, but he took space and taught me. So question for you is, you know, during this kind of transition era, if you will, of like creative, finding your way, figuring out the structure behind it.
Reece Parker (10:17)
yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
Totally. Totally.
Mack Garrison (10:44)
Did you have any mentors or did you find and reach out to people to try to get some of that knowledge?
Reece Parker (10:48)
yeah, yeah, I mean a lot of people were, as I began to get...
more hired and become more hireable. Again, I was mostly raw, intuitive talent and like my knowledge was years of putting things together over time. And like all of my clients were almost mentors at that time. I would have creative directors reach out to me and be like, I'll bring you on and I'd be like, great. And then I'd ask them like endless questions or I'd reach out, like I reached out to Alan Lasseter, one of my first years in the industry, like, dude, I love your work.
Mack Garrison (11:11)
Mmm.
Reece Parker (11:25)
and I love your position and how do you blah, blah, blah. And he was really, really sweet and responded. And I'm sure he wouldn't remember that if you told him, but he had a long list answering all my questions. I probably did that a hundred times, to be honest with you. Yeah.
Mack Garrison (11:39)
man, I love that so much. Cause
I feel like, you know, for whatever reason we, we, none of us want to look like idiots. think that's what it is, right? You're young. You don't want to reach out to someone. You don't want to bother them or you don't want to feel like your stuff isn't good enough to even be having that conversation for anyone that's listening to this that might be on the precipice of graduation, whether it's from school or like a school emotion course or something along those lines. What advice would you give?
Reece Parker (11:51)
Totally.
Yeah.
Mack Garrison (12:08)
and how to reach out to some of these folks or how to put yourself out there, the confidence to do that like you did.
Reece Parker (12:14)
Good question. mean, I think looking back at how I did it, I was mostly naive, but I was also really genuine, and I think you could feel that in my approach. I wasn't acting out of any sense of like, owe me a response. I mostly was like, you probably won't read this. that's the case, that's okay. On the off chance, you do read it. Like, I love your stuff, and that's why I'm reaching out. And I think...
that energy you can feel and it's encouraging a response. And I have a lot of students reach out to me on the flip side now where I try my best to sort of honor my early days and be really sort of spend some time answering thoughtfully to them in the same way that I maybe would have hoped earlier. But also like you can't expect.
it to go that way. You sort of have to like, I hope, but if it doesn't, it's okay and I'm going to try again. That's just how, like that energy is necessary and failure isn't failure. It's like you keep moving and pushing and eventually it'll land. Yeah.
Mack Garrison (13:20)
dude, I love that so much. I had this phrase
a couple of years ago that like I just gravitated towards that's perfection inhibits progress. I feel like so much as creatives and designers, we hold stuff in such high regard. It's like, I don't want to put anything out there until I really like it. But you think about all the times that that slows you up.
Reece Parker (13:29)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Mack Garrison (13:39)
You're the student trying to perfect your portfolio. It's not quite there yet. I don't want to reach out where the studio trying to update our portfolio. it doesn't quite have all the projects, the reels, you know, at end of the day. And I think you would echo the same sentiment. People will critique whatever you put out there. You always have 20, 20 vision and doing something a little bit differently, but you just got to keep the bus moving forward, right?
Reece Parker (13:47)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, absolutely. I think I ran into that problem more recently than ever before, honestly, where it's like...
almost inhibiting productivity because I want to over organize or over calculate or over speculate or analyze and it just yeah at a certain point it's too far and you're actually getting in the way of doing the work so I'm kind of trying to remind my brain to go back to kind of the early days of like yes I want to make great work but I also just want to be productive and make it simple you know
Mack Garrison (14:12)
Mmm.
course, simplicity rules each and every day, even with your design and your compositions, I feel like every solution usually revolves about me taking stuff away versus like adding anything new. You know, I think something that's been interesting, especially over the last couple of years, know, AI is such a hard conversation to have in our industry right now. I think just by the fact that like there's more people than ever in the space, marketing companies are turning towards, or excuse me.
Reece Parker (14:38)
Yes. Yeah.
Yeah, totally. Totally, totally.
Mack Garrison (15:03)
companies are turning to investing in AI, which is taken away from marketing budgets. So everyone's kind of working a bit leaner. I think that's from studios, that's from freelancers. So for someone getting in the space, you you had this hustle and this tenacity that I think really led you to these opportunities, got you into the door and ultimately led to where you are now. Did you feel like looking back on that, that there was maybe one single piece of advice or something that seemed to work?
Reece Parker (15:07)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Mack Garrison (15:32)
best when you're trying to get yourself out there. Is it the cold emails? Is it like conferences? You know, looking back on it, was there one thing like, oh, if I could do this over again, knowing what I know now, I would do X, Y, and Z.
Reece Parker (15:46)
It's hard because so much has changed, even in a short time, nine years. The landscape is different now, but what I would say through those changes, what remains is...
Mack Garrison (15:50)
Mmm.
Reece Parker (16:00)
You've got to love the work and putting that love into the work is going to attract clientele and that's true for any service. So like I spent a year rebuilding my site with a developer and just putting so much love into it kind of for no reason to be honest with you other than I really wanted it to be great. And now I'm doing sites for clients that are paying me real budgets. And I didn't do anything other than say on Instagram, I'm redoing my site and I'm here
Mack Garrison (16:24)
Whoa, that's wild, that's cool.
Reece Parker (16:30)
go check it out. It's like that's all I did. Now I have a platform at this stage in my career, but the energy in the through line is the same. Love the work that will attract the clients. It's like I don't have any formula other than that to be honest.
Mack Garrison (16:46)
Well, honestly, it's just authentic. I love that, right? It shows if you care about something, you're putting time and attention towards it. It's reflected in the final outcome. You know, from a studio owner perspective, I have a interesting question for you. You made me think of, you know, there was this long standing, I don't know if it was like a thought or long standing conviction. I think there's a good word that if you are really good at something niche down.
Reece Parker (16:54)
Yeah. Yes.
Mack Garrison (17:14)
Like get really good at this thing and that's what everyone's gonna come to you for. With all this change, you accepted, it sounds like, some of these website jobs. It's like, yeah, it's kind of what I do adjacent to it. You kind of opened it up. Do you feel like that's a change that you're starting to recognize and as you look ahead to like future reach, are you kind of open to saying yes to a bit more and should other people kind of be considering that as well?
Reece Parker (17:19)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
This is a hard conversation because you're going to land.
It's 50-50 whoever you talk to. I do not subscribe to niching down. However, I also don't subscribe to saying yes to everything. The reason I felt it was appropriate to take some of these jobs that are outside of my normal skill set or service that I usually provide for clients is because they said we want it done in a Reece way. We want your voice on it. So it wasn't me acting as some ex graphic designer. It was Reece being
Mack Garrison (17:45)
Sure, sure.
Mmm.
Reece Parker (18:13)
Reece just for a different service. And honestly, as we move through changes in this industry, we start to question what it is that is going to remain valuable for clients. And that's a hard answer. And I'm not willing to turn away projects because they're not like they're not an animated film that are like super artistic, like that might not be valuable right now for clients. And that's okay. I can still kind of be Reece on something else. So it's been really rewarding. And yes, I've had to adapt.
my mind a bit and it's hard to go like, some artists do niche and they're great but like, I don't know, I don't know. It's a hard, yeah, it's a hard question.
Mack Garrison (18:53)
What a compliment
though. mean, like that is, that's a premier place to be where it's like, look, I want your problem solving ability is essentially what they're asking for. And honestly, this is one of the biggest things that I believe motion designers should be advocating for themselves and highlighting about themselves is just how good a problem solvers we are. mean, by definition, we're, multi-disciplinary creatives who are trying to come up with analogies and metaphors for all these different things.
Reece Parker (19:01)
Yes. Yeah.
Yeah, you're right.
You're right.
Mack Garrison (19:20)
So we're naturally good at thinking on our toes and moving quick given the deadlines. And it's why I personally believe that no matter how much change happens over the next 10 and 20 years is motion designers are always going to be employable because the sheer fact that like we can navigate ambiguity, we can come up with solutions and move things forward. And so I think like that's good advice for anyone did here to who's in the space is like, okay, if the technology is changing and maybe the medium is changing, where can there be flexibility and how to kind of present myself in a problem solving way. So I love that. That's really cool.
Reece Parker (19:38)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Mack Garrison (19:52)
Let's see, let's change it up a little bit. One of the things I'm really curious about, you've been in this space now, what is it, nine years? Is that what you said professionally?
Reece Parker (20:00)
Yeah, I think this is the ninth year maybe. Yeah. Yeah.
Mack Garrison (20:02)
my gosh, isn't that crazy? Doesn't it both feel
like the other day and like you've been doing this forever. It's like both like I've been here forever and I just started. I bet dollars to donuts that you've had some wild creative stories over the years from like a crazy client project to something kind of unique. Is there a story that maybe you haven't shared and we don't have to like call anyone out. We can blind it over but I just want to know a crazy industry story that we could share Reece.
Reece Parker (20:10)
Absolutely, Yeah.
Ha
Yeah, I mean, there's wild stuff, a lot of wild stuff, honestly. Maybe one of the more interesting ones was a high profile, actually this has happened multiple times, so maybe it's not even weird. But it's the case of like high profile clients, you have a specific team within that client that you're working directly with, and then at a certain stage in production.
whatever deliverable you are delivering gets to the eyes of somebody above the ladder or up the chain and like shifts everything. Like they don't seem to care at all about the progress thus far and just makes a snap decision. And I've had that result in canceling half a million dollar projects. I've had that result in redoing six figure projects entirely because one color was wrong. I mean, I've had like
Mack Garrison (21:04)
the classic stakeholder.
Reece Parker (21:28)
Wild what multiple wild wild things where it's just if this person had their eyes slightly sooner Maybe it could have saved like hundreds of thousands of dollars, but for whatever reason it just doesn't unfold that way I don't know. Yeah, so I guess that counts. Yeah Yeah Yeah Yeah
Mack Garrison (21:39)
So crazy.
for sure. Absolutely. Someone spending that amount of money and then changing everything at the last minute is absurd.
And you're right, though. I mean, we've navigated stuff like that before. Or the one that always is so surprising to me is the one where the client spends time, energy and effort. You finish the project and it just never goes live. Like we've had a couple of projects we've worked on. They've just like eaten. It's just never gone out. And I'm just like, how in the world could you invest so much time and energy?
Reece Parker (22:05)
Yeah.
Yep.
Mack Garrison (22:13)
and never put something out in the world, you know, it's it's kind of bonkers.
Reece Parker (22:13)
Yup. Yup. I
like that too. Yeah, same. I don't know. I don't know. It's crazy.
Mack Garrison (22:21)
Well here, me this, I always am looking for new inspiration or finding out how folks think and how they tick. A lot of folks look up to you, Reece, for your inspiration. mean, you do some amazing work. I've got your website pulled up here. It looks phenomenal. So I don't know, maybe I need to get you to design our website. I might hire you for that too. But I'm curious, over the course of the last decade basically,
Reece Parker (22:37)
Thank you.
Let's do it.
Mack Garrison (22:45)
Who have been some of the creatives that inspired you? I know you mentioned Alan Lasseter and reaching out to him. Who are some others that you're just like, I love this studio's work or I love this person's work?
Reece Parker (22:50)
Absolutely.
Yeah, I mean, a lot of them come from sort of what I'm calling the golden age of motion design, but I think what it really was was like the little bubble within motion that was sort of the buck giant gunner era. Like my goal was to be as good as them as one artist. And that's a silly goal because it's subjective and whatever and impossible, but.
Mack Garrison (23:18)
You
Reece Parker (23:21)
I really, really looked up to a lot of those guys and still do, the ones that are kind of still doing work. And I know a lot of it shifted and pivoted and that's just the way of the world. But I look back on that era where, you know, every day there was a new piece that like absolutely blew my mind and taught me something or made inspire me to kind of try something new. That's really, really, really valuable. And I think it's different now. My inspirations now come from like...
Mack Garrison (23:35)
Mmm.
Reece Parker (23:49)
creators on social or designers that are doing logos. It's like, think I've expanded my mind a bit because I feel like at this point it's necessary and maybe that comes back in later years. I don't know.
Mack Garrison (23:51)
Mmm.
It reminds me of the the wine after coffee days, right? The Vimeo channel where you go there and there was always something new, some new inspiration. And that's where I would like collect my Vimeo likes. But I think you're right. I think there's something to be said about finding inspiration outside those traditional channels. So of course you have the Vimeos and the YouTube and now you you have Instagram and TikTok. Well, TikTok for a little bit. I think by the time this might be published, TikTok might be gone. But what are some of the other spots you look towards to inspiration?
Reece Parker (24:06)
Yep.
Yes.
Yes.
Yeah.
Yep.
Yeah, yeah.
Good question. Film, I just saw Nasferatu by Robert F. Kearney and it was like unbelievably rich. Every shot was like a painting. It's just like...
Maybe I write a movie, no I won't, but I'm just saying like, wow, I pull stuff from music and film and art and video games and life. And I'm trying to widen my horizons a bit these days, whereas before I think I was more singularly focused in an era that was really feeding me, but now it's less so and so you have to kind of go, where's the future and where do I wanna? I told my wife, I think 2025 is gonna be like a 2016.
year for Reece which is just like very self-focused doing a lot of different work experimenting a lot really productive because I think that's gonna be fruitful for the years to come.
instead of like abundant opportunity, like kind of chilling, signing checks, like they were those years too and those were great, but we gotta adapt when we need to adapt and it just feels like, you know, it's that time to really kind of explore.
Mack Garrison (25:43)
Dude, I love that the reinvestment in creative, you know, it's like almost in a way you've kind of set yourself on this path. You've been doing the path that you haven't given yourself enough time to analyze. Damn. Am I walking in the right direction? You know, like, should I be dabbling in something else? I know I saw, I think it was on Instagram maybe earlier last year about this tattoo apprenticeship where you're basically getting into tattooing is some of this kind of lending itself to kind of that exploration. Is that what kind of brought you into like trying out tattooing?
Reece Parker (25:55)
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah.
Absolutely. So I was getting tattooed often and my artist was like, I might leave this shop and go somewhere else, but if I had an apprentice maybe I'd stick around. And I was like...
I'll do it man, that sounds really interesting. Like I know how to draw, technically you can give me a pencil and I can do kind of almost anything with it. So I think that my transition and he was like, yeah, and we're like really good friends. So it was a really sweet like acceptance into an entirely different industry and they afforded me a lot.
respect based on sort of my accomplishments in the digital space. And so it was a really seamless and easy. It did not feel like starting over. It felt like, dude, come in here. We'll show you these ways. And when you need to use it, use it. So like for me, it's like five years from now. I don't know what's going on. I just cannot predict it. And if I need to fall back and like really hone in on tattooing, I absolutely can.
Mack Garrison (27:12)
That's so wild.
What do you feel like, you know, to your point, if you have a pencil, you can kind of draw something and draw whatever you can translate it over. Have there been more surprises than you realized on the relationship from like motion design into tattooing? Was there anything you're like, I didn't expect this to have this similar kind of approach, but that's cool that it does.
Reece Parker (27:31)
That's a really interesting question. Some of the...
technical aspects maybe transition in a way that you would or parallel in a way that maybe wouldn't be expected. I mean obviously learning digital software could be compared to like learning new languages. There's a lot of complexity and a lot of interesting like little tweaks and whatever. And I think the tattooing version of that is the machines and which machine and which needle and which type of ink and why and what is it doing and how is it moving and you know they're similar.
But it's also very, like it's draftsman-like. You're sketching a lot. There's a medical aspect that was the most difficult for me, by the way, because all of the art, go like, yeah, I'm art boy. But when you're like, well, this is almost surgery, so be very careful. I'm like, that's a new world entirely. I'm, you know, that, exactly. it's, yeah, connecting what does connect, but also being very reverent.
Mack Garrison (28:20)
Sure.
100%.
Reece Parker (28:37)
about the parts that are completely new and need respect.
Mack Garrison (28:40)
I
love that it's being confident, but not cocky, right? It's like, you know, being confident in your skillset, you're like, I can translate this over, but being humble to the new space you're in and making sure you're continuing to learn. I think all of us could take that advice with everything we do is like, be confident, speak our minds, say what we believe in, but also understand that we're still learning. We're still growing as well too. We don't know everything. All right, I'm put you on the spot with this question. Do you think we could get a live Reece Parker tattoo session at the Dash Bash? You wanna put, you wanna tattoo something?
Reece Parker (28:44)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Totally. Absolutely. Okay.
Mack Garrison (29:10)
on somebody on stage.
Reece Parker (29:11)
I would love to if we can figure out how to make it like above ground and not against the law. So there's like permitting and things that would have to take place before I'd be allowed to do so. But yeah, other than that, I would love to do it. And I actually, there are some people that are excited to maybe partake in that if we can kind of get it to work.
Mack Garrison (29:35)
I love it. I love it. You
heard it here. So if we can get it above grade, above par, we run a tight ship here. We'll do it legally. We'll get Reece tattooing folks. Well, Reece, thanks so much for hanging out with me today. I know a lot of folks are really excited to be hanging at the bash with you. Have you given much thought on kind of what you want to hone in on or any teasers you have for folks who might be attending?
Reece Parker (29:39)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's right.
Yes, Sue.
Honestly, this is my first speaking event. I'm just excited really to be involved, honestly, and I'm also excited to get out. I've got a bunch of kids and it makes it hard to get out to these events. But I think now more than ever, it's really important just to go and be with the community and relate to each other and swap stories and all those things that sort of reinvigorate us in a way that where isolation does not afford. And in terms of what I'll be talking about,
I'm just going to keep it real exactly like my bio. You can expect my bio, but just keeping it real the whole time. Very vulnerable. I think that's my strong suit rather than technical and whatever. that's what I'm bringing. If that sounds exciting, awesome. I'm really excited to see everybody there and hang out.
Mack Garrison (30:44)
man,
we're so excited to have you. It's gonna be such a great talk. It's been great getting to know you over last 10 years, and just seeing how talented you are and how you've gotten more talented. I still feel like the best Reece is yet to come. So I can't see what you're gonna do over the next decade. For everyone listening on this, tickets are on sale right now. You can check it out at dashbash.net and you can join us June 11th through 13th, this summer, 2025 in Raleigh, North Carolina for the Dash Bash and Animation and Motion Design Festival built around creativity, inclusivity, and getting to know all the cool.
Reece Parker (30:56)
We'll see.
Mack Garrison (31:13)
people in our space. Thanks for your time, Reece. Thanks everyone for listening and we'll be back with our continued speaker series. So make sure to check them all out. Thanks everyone. Take care.
Reece Parker (31:23)
Thanks guys.
Takeover Tuesday with Antoinie Eugene
An interview with Antoinie Eugene: a freelance Motion Graphics Animator based out of Tampa who loves to be engaged creatively.
Interviewer: Bella Alfonsi
Read time: 5min
Bella:
Thanks for joining us for Takeover Tuesday, Antoinie! Can you please give us a lil' intro?
Antoinie:
Hi! My name is Antoinie Eugene and I am a Motion Designer who loves to explore the endless creative possibilities in design/ animation and how it can be applied across various platforms.
Bella:
How did you get into the motion design industry? Do you have any formal training or are you self-taught?
Antoinie:
I got into the motion graphics industry after seeing my brothers take on a passion for animation learning. It was extremely inspiring talking to them about the projects they would create from scratch and seeing the work this industry puts out. It made me realize that we see motion graphics daily on our screens and in advertising. I started learning through online courses and Youtube tutorials then took on freelance work doing logo animations the same year. It has been a challenging yet fulfilling ride ever since.
A scene Antoinie worked on for Sarah Beth Morgan’s Film “Between Lines”
Bella:
Do you have any advice for fellow freelancers trying to go full-time?
Antoinie:
Going to events such as conferences and meetups has been an amazing way to meet people in industry and connect on social media or linked in. You may find the opportunity to show a studio owner or producer who's looking to hire what you've been working on!
Bella:
Where do you find inspiration? How do you combat burnout?
Antoinie:
Every work day I like to briefly look at motion channels that post new work. Good Moves TV, Wine after Coffee, and good ole instagram feed has tons of inspiration to pull from and add to my never ending reference library.
Tom Petty Project Antoinie worked on.
Bella:
What would you tell someone who is trying to "find their style"?
Antoinie:
I am still trying to "find my style" and for me it starts with the basics. Getting a comfortable seat with the fundamentals and learning the techniques that set a foundation for you to explore more freely as you progress. We know so many artists for their unique style but need to consider that most of them started with art principles and amateur looking work. It's all a part of the process.
Bella:
Do you have a "dream client" that you'd like to work with?
Antoinie:
A dream client / job of mine is Headspace. I am a long time user of the app and have explored meditation with their courses and Netflix shows. The smooth animations on their social feed paired with relaxing sounds are my favorite videos to ogle at and listen to! Especially with most media being overstimulating these days. I also love the company culture. Of course a company who focuses on meditation would have amazing work life balance!
Another from from “Between Lines” short film.
Bella:
What are your favorite programs to use? Are there any plugins or expressions you use often?
Antoinie:
My favorite program to use is After Effects. That's the bread and butter right there!
Bella:
What's your proudest moment in your career thus far?
Antoinie:
I got to contribute to "Between Lines", a short film and passion project put together by Sarah Beth Morgan. Being a part of this incredible two year journey has been an unforgettable highlight. I collaborated with a group of exceptionally talented women and we came together for the premiere in Brooklyn. I'm deeply grateful for the opportunity to have been a part of such a remarkable experience.
Bella:
What's the future look like for you?
Antoinie:
I am now working with Warner Bros Discovery / MAX and learning a lot as it is my first time actually in an office setting!
Antoinie showcasing the new 3D hand model Mandy who can be customizable to represent different skin tones and genders.
Takeover Tuesday with Elizabeth Gu
An interview with Elizabeth Gu: is an illustrator and designer based in Houston, TX. With an interest in creating worlds suspended between fantasy and reality, she likes to relate these unseen, surreal worlds to the psyche and internal states of mind that are often difficult to express through words.
Interviewer: Bella Alfonsi
Read time: 5min
Bella:
Hi Elizabeth! Thanks for taking over this Tuesday with us. Can you please introduce yourself?
Elizabeth:
First of all, thank you so much for having me! I'm so excited to contribute to this series.
My name is Elizabeth and I’m a designer and illustrator based in Houston, TX. I initially studied civil engineering before taking what feels like a tremendous leap into the design world. At the time, I was working as Art Director at my school’s daily news publication and pretty much decided to take my interests in illustration and design more seriously. After shifting gears, I got my first design internship with Pixel Park. Interning there was super formative to my artistic growth, but also more profoundly - my sense of community in the motion design industry. Shout out to the Pixel Park family, love you guys! <3
Since then I’ve found myself freelancing on projects in graphic design, editorial illustration, and motion design. I feel very fortunate to have landed these opportunities and I’m just excited to continue learning more.
Bella:
What sparked your interest in illustration/design?
Elizabeth:
I spent a lot of time drawing, painting, and dabbling in arts and crafts as a child. So I think the interest has always inherently been there in some way. When I got a bit older I started messing around with digital art and using an Intuos tablet for the first time. Making the switch from traditional to digital was absolutely mind boggling while opening up this whole new world.
As a Chinese-American, I grew up with certain expectations about what my job should look like and the reality of adulthood made anything artistic feel like a non-option. However, when I was studying at the University of Southern California, I came across their animation program and ended up completing an animation minor. So as an adult, I was able to rediscover what illustration and design meant to me while also seeing how art could be applied in the real world.
Illustration titles “Dreamless Slumber.”
Bella:
What inspires you and your work?
Elizabeth:
I love themes of magical realism and surrealism. Both visually and conceptually - things like seeing the ordinary as opportunities for magical moments. As a child, I was enchanted by the kodamas in Hayao Miyazaki’s Princess Mononoke. Or the soot sprites hidden away in the old countryside house in My Neighbor Totoro. Ideas that were saying if you looked closely enough, you would find something sacred and magical. Perspectives of reality can bend.
Also as a general rule of thumb, I try to stay open minded to new experiences. This keeps the flow of inspiration in motion for myself. Seeing new places, people, or perhaps indulging in new food from different cultures. Anything to expand and change your brain is so invaluable for creatives.
Bella:
What advice do you have for artists trying to find clients?
Elizabeth:
I would say to value every interaction you have within the community. Don’t expect anything to be a one-off, and put in energy to stay connected with the people it comes naturally with. Not only do you end up learning a lot from them, but it’s also an immense mood booster when you’re feeling lonely on your freelancer island.
Speaking more strategically, Motion Hatch is a wonderful resource that goes more deeply into the freelance game. Hayley Akins talks about how to build your online presence, warm up to clients, but also how to use your pre-existing network (work smarter not harder). I know for me specifically, I learned a lot about how to phrase cold emails but she has since put out a ton of useful content specific to the motion design industry. Definitely worth checking out!
Frame from one of Elizabeth’s Social Media Explorations for Pixel Park.
Bella:
A lot of your work has a deeper meaning and seems to be expressive of something you've been through. How has illustration helped you through tough times?
Elizabeth:
I’ve always been drawn to illustration that operates like visual essay. Subconsciously, I want my own work to have layers of story that might be interpreted in different nuanced ways. I think it's helped me in the sense that it doesn't require verbal explanation and the healing is in the process. It's like a meditation through the act of creation.
Granted, sometimes my pieces can feel so obviously diaristic I want to take them back because it’s too embarrassing! But then you realize everyone is the same way, stumbling in their vulnerability. So better to have shared than to hide away. It's kind of what art is for - to share and discover that we're all the same in a lot of ways.
Bella:
I love the colors and textures you use. What's your process of finding a color palette for a project like?
Elizabeth:
Thank you! I think working with colors might be my favorite part of the whole process. I usually gravitate towards purpley blues and love pairing that base with yellow or pink accents. Anything that gives off a moonlit nocturnal scene I’m pretty much always partial to. With specific projects where this isn’t the case, I usually first identify the tone and mood. Then I play around with colors that match and I take time to assess my reaction. I try to find ways to use my favorite ones into projects, but I also like the challenge of an unfamiliar color that isn’t in my typical wheelhouse. I’m not a color expert, but the process is often an intuitive back and forth more than anything else.
Bella:
What advice would you give to someone who is "trying to find their style"?
Elizabeth:
I would say a big part of it is honoring your interests and being willing to explore them in your work. I still find this difficult myself when certain visual styles are in vogue and seem to dominate the “look” of the industry. But personal style is ever-changing and takes a bit of time to develop, so it's important to keep creating and investigating what you like. It helps me to see it as creative playtime rather than the pressure of finding your style as soon as possible.
Frame from “Water Memory.”
Bella:
Do you have a dream project or client you'd like to work with?
Elizabeth:
I always have a hard time answering this! I think there are so many cool projects going on, both big and small. I would say story-based concepts that are emotionally explorative in nature would be such a treat to contribute to!
I’ve recently been enjoying sci-fi content like Scavengers Reign which has such immersive alien world visuals. Bladerunner 2049 is another recent watch of mine and I can’t get the striking dystopian set design out of my head. Paired with concepts about the human condition, our relationship with technology, environmentalism, etc. I find any project that touches on these themes so compelling.
Studio-wise, I have also adored Chromosphere’s work. In particular, the short film “My Moon” which explores romantic versus practical love. This is represented in a love triangle with the Earth, Moon, and Sun. The Sun provides light, energy, and color to the Earth while the Moon is less practical. I’m such a sucker for symbolism in the form of celestial bodies!
Bella:
Is there anything you've learned as an artist thus far that you wish you knew when you first started?
Elizabeth:
I wish I understood sooner that the only person I was competing with was myself. As someone who came from engineering where a lot of processes can be more linear with exact steps - I started creating this unnatural checklist fueled by anxiety and comparison. I remember telling myself I needed to work with certain clients by a certain age which was absolutely ridiculous and unfair to myself when I needed the time to switch industries and gain footing. Obviously there are crucial beats to hit such as developing your portfolio, but in large it’s much healthier to be patient with yourself and let your circumstances naturally guide you.
“The Big Role Nostalgia Plays in My Life”
Bella:
Anything exciting coming up that you're excited to share?
Elizabeth:
Client-wise, I designed a piece for Blue Cross Blue Shield of North Carolina that’s out now! Many thanks to Kyle Griffin who animated and also played a major role with design concepts.
And for personal work, I would be remiss to not mention My Shadow which was designed under my mentorship with Dash. Shout out to Meryn Hayes and Meg Snyder for supporting my ideas and offering their sage advice along the way! It deals with themes of the inner child and rekindling a sense of wonder and curiosity.
“My Shadow” Based on a personal dream where a young girl is gifted her shadow.
Takeover Tuesday with David Holm
An interview with David Holm: a 2D animation & illustration specialist from Detroit, Michigan.
Interviewer: Bella Alfonsi
Read time: 5min
Bella:
Thanks for joining us for Takeover Tuesday, Dave! Please give the people a lil' introduction!
Dave:
My Name is David Holm and I am an animator/designer at Boxfort, in Detroit Michigan.
Bella:
How did you get into motion design?
Dave:
I went to school for graphic design originally but always wanted to make cartoons and make short films.
The community college at the time didn't have any classes for 2d animation.
But towards my last semester I won a scholarship contest. Which gave me the funds to take a full year of extra classes. So I took Intro to After Effects and Advanced After Effects(taught by Steve Savalle at the time)
And those two classes really helped me use my graphic design and illustration skills in a new way.
Then a year after graduating college in 2012 I landed my first in house studio job as a motion designer!
A frame David’s reel.
Bella:
What's the workflow like when mixing 2D and 3D styles together?
Dave:
When I work with mixing 2D and 3D I usually like the 3d elements to ground the 2D animations. So the characters will be all 2D animated but the environment is all made in 3D.
I just think mixing the 2d/3d can give you a really unique look and results. I also really like using glass and reflections to get cool random light leaks.
Bella:
I love me a character made from an inanimate object- big fan of yours. How do you give personality to something that isn't a human?
Dave:
Thank you! I really have a wild imagination that lets me give random objects backstories and wonder how this character/object behaves in an animated world.
Every object in my house has been drawn with a face lol
Dave worked with his pals Gunner to create some animated stickers for a unique mint company called Flintt Mints
Bella:
Do you have a favorite project that you've worked on?
Dave:
My favorite project I've worked on is probably Recess or Half Rez, because we collaborated together to mix a bunch of styles together and made something that felt fresh and unique.
Bella:
Where do you find inspiration?
Dave:
I find inspiration in everyday life. I really benefit from going outside and just watching the plants sway in the wind. And see the wild life thrive and just live around us.
Also bringing a mini sketch book around and using it to do quick idea sketches on the spot.
Bella:
What are you most proud of in your career thus far?
Dave:
What I am most proud of in my career would be probably being able to successfully work as an animator/designer and pursue other hobbies on the side.
Recently I joined my friends band and being freelance lets me be flexible to do both. Also, contributing on the Dash Bash titles this year was a highlight too!
It was a dream project to work with Dash and have it be seen by so many creatives.
Frame from Recess, a Boxfort short film.
Bella:
What's it like working at Boxfort? Do you collaborate often with fellow freelancers?
Dave:
Working at Boxfort has been incredible, we have grown a lot in the last year and we have a lot of new creative energy. We do collaborate a lot by giving each other advice or suggestions. And we are also in the process of creating a handful
of new animated short films. We actually just released an animated short for the new Gunner School. You can check that out here.
Bella:
Do you have any advice for being stuck in a creative rut/how to get out of it?
Dave:
If I get stuck in a creative rut, I usually need to take a break from the screen and all technology. Taking a walk in the woods or a park helps me so much to give myself some clarity and motivation.
Music playlists that are made to get me motivated and stay creative help me a lot too. Also exercise a little will give your brain a boost. We like to play hacky Sack to break up the screen time. It gets your body moving and it's fun!
Bella:
Any final words of wisdom?
Dave:
Final words of wisdom would be to write down your projects/to do lists daily. Sketch ideas out instead of doom scrolling social media. Also, you should set aside a day to not be on the computer at least once a week.
Takeover Tuesday with Liz Klein DiBello
An interview with Liz Klein DiBello: a Brooklyn based designer, animator and creative director.
Interviewer: Bella Alfonsi
Read time: 5min
Bella:
Thanks for joining us for Takeover Tuesday, Liz! Can you please give us a lil' introduction?
Liz:
Thanks so much for having me in! I’m so happy to be a part of this!
I’m Liz Klein DiBello, and I’m a Brooklyn based designer, animator and creative director.
I come to motion design with a graphic design background, and it’s a part of everything I do. My work has focused on design-based motion projects like network rebrands and broadcast design, commercials and online videos, but has also included projects that focus more on a collage and texture-based approach which lends itself to projects like explainer videos, PSA’s and more.
Also, I just recently joined the incredibly talented team at Mighty Oak full time as Associate Creative Director!
Bella:
How did your career in motion design begin?
Liz:
From a young age I was always interested in anything related to drawing, painting and crafting, so I guess you could say it started there. There was a chest of drawers in my house filled with all sorts of crafting materials: different types of papers, scissors, pastels, crayons, markers and more (this is probably what started my interest in collage). When I got older and my family got their first computer, I got super into Photoshop and discovered graphic design. Later I found out that I could do this as my career, and that’s what made me pursue a design education.
But for motion design specifically, that part of my story started in school. I was going to the School of Visual Arts in New York for Graphic Design, and took Ori Kleiner’s intro to motion class Junior year. Motion design and After Effects was still relatively new at the time, and I loved the idea of bringing design to life and pairing it with music. Ori would show the class so many examples of great titles sequences and introduced us to the process of making motion graphics. I was super inspired by seeing how others were using this new tool. Senior year there was an option to specialize in motion design and I knew it was the right move for me. I decided to do a portfolio class with Ryan Moore.
During school I had always kind of been working, I was always very practical and really wanted to dive right into real life projects. I was interning at Nickelodeon, but I also started taking on a few freelance jobs here and there. One of my first motion design jobs was a book trailer that was all kinetic type, which was trending at the time.
After I graduated, I found my first full time job at The String Theory, a small studio in Manhattan that introduced me to so many different types of projects– anything from broadway commercials, to billboards in Times Square, explainer videos, lyric videos and so much more.
A frame from Liz’s DogTV project.
Bella:
With expertise in multiple areas, from illustration to art direction, is there a part of the creative process that you enjoy doing the most?
Liz:
The beginning of the creative process is always my favorite. I like to spend time upfront researching, learning, looking for inspiration, and exploring the different directions a project could go. What I find during this phase can help inform design decisions, and the look and feel of what I’m working on. There’s so much potential during this step.
Bella:
Do you have any advice for other artists trying to go full-time freelance?
Liz:
I have SO many freelance words of wisdom! One big one is that community is super important for many reasons- it will not only keep the jobs flowing, but there’s also an element of support that is there. There’s moments where you might feel isolated because you are flying solo. You’re going to have questions about rates, or the hold system, or maybe you just want to bounce an idea off of someone, but you don’t have co-workers anymore to do that with. Panimation NYC is one of those communities, and Dorca Musseb asked me last year to become an admin. It’s such a great space to provide all of those resources, plus just being a way to meet some genuinely cool people, and I’m happy to be a part of that.
Another piece of advice is boundaries during bookings- define them before you start looking for jobs, and stick to them. For example, how many hours does your rate include, 8, 10? What is your overtime rate, and when does that kick in?
Bella:
Where do you find inspiration? How do you combat creative burnout?
Liz:
Of course I’m constantly inspired by the many talented artists and studios in our community, but I try to look outside of the industry as well so I can get a fresh perspective. Some of the best inspiration can come from a trip I just took, an exhibition that I recently saw at a museum or gallery, or just walking around the streets of New York. Music has also always been a huge inspiration of mine– when I go to a concert, I always look forward to seeing what kinds of graphics are on the screen behind the band and what the merch looks like. Music can have such an impact on how something moves and looks.
Inspiration is also one way to fight burnout. Burnout is so real and so important to acknowledge. It’s important to get ahead of it and realize when it’s starting to happen and what your key signs are. For how to recharge, it’s kind of a balance between just stopping to relax fully physically and mentally, but creatively. For the physical/mental part, doing something away from the computer and devices is pretty key- like a hike in nature, or yoga.
Bella:
Your style is super fun and colorful. What would you tell someone who is trying to "find their own style"?
Liz:
Thank you! I would say to take note of what you enjoy working on the most, and try to do more of that. Your style will naturally evolve from there.
I’d also say my own style is still evolving, it’s a long road! So don’t get discouraged if you don’t have a “style” right away. Sometimes you can only see the pattern in your work by looking back at your past work and seeing the common threads.
Frame from Liz’s reel.
Bella:
Do any of the projects you've worked on stand out as a favorite?
Liz:
I don’t know if it gets much better than DOGTV. I had always wanted to work on a network rebrand, and Andrea Pabalan and Darci Manely at thelab nyc approached me to art direct a rebrand for the streaming service.
I should explain that DOGTV is a streaming service for dogs– it keeps them occupied while their pet parents are out of the house, and is actually based on scientific research around reducing stress in dogs. The channel content is actually broadcast in colors that dog’s eyes can see. So it’s a fun project but also serves a helpful purpose.
Our team worked on an entirely new set of assets for the brand that could live on the streaming service, but also in print and digital too. We started with a new logo, typefaces, colors, tone of voice, custom patterns, illustrations, and a brand new photo and footage library. Then we took those elements, and created a new look and feel for the streaming service itself and its content– so everything from bumpers, to transitions and lower thirds, to a sample promo for one of the shows.
We wanted the look and feel to reflect the energetic and unique personalities of dogs, so we went super bold, colorful and poppy. Knowing this was a rebrand for a channel based around dogs, motion was always a huge part of this rebrand and would be something we kept gut checking ourselves against throughout the process. We knew everything we created had to feel like it had the right energy and a playfulness to it.
One of the most fun parts of the project was getting to have a two day photo and live action shoot with over 30 dogs. I made a lot of new furry friends!
Bella:
How do you make yourself stand out among other artists when pitching to a new client?
Liz:
For me it’s not about looking at it as a competition. It’s all about recognizing what you bring to the table and pointing out what makes you and your skills unique, and why and how those things would make the client’s project great. For me, it’s that I can wear many hats- I can design, animate, edit, illustrate, and direct. And I enjoy hopping into all of those roles!
Bella:
What's your proudest moment in your career thus far?
Liz:
I’m really proud of the projects that I work on that give back in some way and use design and animation to serve a greater purpose. I’ve now worked on a few projects that are centered around the importance of elections and voting, a cause that I deeply believe in. I was lucky enough to work on FiveThirtyEight’s The New Bellwethers series, which came out at the time of the 2016 election. Even though the election didn’t pan out as I had wanted, it felt good to be able to contribute to the conversation at that time. Another election based project I’ve gotten to work on recently with Mighty Oak is a spot for NYC Votes. We’re breaking down the process of how to vote to help get more people out there on election day.
And one more bonus proud moment- someone once got a tattoo of a logo that I made. I can’t believe someone liked my design so much that they wanted it with them forever! So that’s definitely up there with my top moments.
Frame from FiveThirtyEight’s The Bellwethers series.
Bella:
Are there any projects coming up that you're excited about?
Liz:
Right now I’m working on a series of collage-based videos for IBM, which I’m pretty excited about.
Thank you so much for the invitation again, it means so much to me. I really enjoy reading these interviews and it’s great to be a part of this series!
Takeover Tuesday with Alejandro Grima
An interview with Alejandro Grima: a freelance art director, motion designer and animator based in Madrid, working for start-ups, companies and agencies around the globe on projects big and small.
Interviewer: Matea Losenegger
Read time: 5min
Matea:
Hello! Thank you for taking time to participate in our series. Can you please introduce yourself and your work?
Alejandro:
Hi there! My name is Alejandro and I’m a Madrid-based motion designer and animator. I was once a jack-of-all-trades graphic designer that worked on digital design, packaging, branding and animation, but 7 years ago I specialized in motion graphics and I’ve been freelancing since.
I’ve been able to work with clients and studios around the globe, and not being restricted geographically and being able to meet people from different backgrounds are some of the things I enjoy the most about freelancing.
When I’m not playing around with keyframes in After Effects, I’m probably discovering new fancy coffee shops, running or taking photos.
Matea:
You have a lot of fun and striking vector work in your portfolio. How did you develop your design style?
Alejandro:
I didn’t really develop a style in a conscious way, I think it has more to do with the evolution of my career: I started out as a branding/digital graphic designer without a proper interest in illustration and maybe that’s how I was initially attached to using simple vectors (also due to the lack of more complex illustration skills). It was later on that I gained interest in more illustrative styles after meeting and working with illustrations, animating their work, and then trying to replicate what they were marvelously doing.
Having said this, I’m really happy that I come from a pure graphic design background, because it allows me to approach each project from a functional point of view and then go for the style that I think should work best. Versatility is key!
A frame from Alejandro’s Lucidity Tech project.
Matea:
On a similar note, I really love your logo and 36 days of type animations. Is there a secret sauce in creating precise and effective visuals?
Alejandro:
I would say trusting the process. I usually get to a result animation I’m happy with after following these three steps:
First, planning everything, doing quick sketches or a storyboard to visualize how everything is going to move.
Secondly, work on the movements, nailing the key poses and how every element interact with each other.
And last but not least, spending time working on the timings of every move, because many times a movement lasting ore or a few more/less frames can really make a difference in the end result.
Matea:
You've obviously honed your craft in Adobe Illustrator and After Effects. Are there any plugins or additional software you like to use in your work?
Alejandro:
Way to many, perhaps! But mainly Overlord (which I find crucial to effortlessly bridge between Illustrator and After Effects), and Duik, Key Cloner and Nudge for quicker and precise keyframe tweaking.
Some of Alejandro’s 36 days of Type explorations.
Matea:
Where do you find inspiration- in and out of the art world?
Alejandro:
In regards to art related stuff, I enjoy going to exhibitions and having a look at anything that has to do with product design and architecture. I even have a dedicated architecture-focused Instagram account because I also love photography and these two subjects collide frequently.
Outside of the arts world, I think what inspires me the most is probably meeting people. I’m a shy person, so it isn’t always easy, but I actively try to push myself out of the comfort zone because I find discovering about other people’s lives, jobs and ways of thinking absolutely enriching.
Matea:
What was your favorite project you've worked on and why does it stand out to you?
Alejandro:
Probably the work I did for Lucidity. I got to learn a lot of really interesting stuff from their team, and they were all a delight to work with. They really know their product and are were able to contribute with interesting ideas while giving me absolute freedom to visualise the information at the same time and could work on some interesting animations and transitions.
Alejandro’s project for Centro Nacional de Golf.
Matea:
You've worked with an interesting variety of clients. What's your favorite type of client to work with?
Alejandro:
Definitely the clients that, because of the nature of the project, make you learn new stuff. For example, I worked on a couple of animation explainer videos not too long ago for a blockchain-based technology and a new pharma product, so in order to being able to translate the information into something visual you have to understand well how this technology works and how that medication affects the body. And, by the end of the day, you go to bed with knowing more interesting stuff than when you woke up.
Matea:
How do you fight burnout and stay motivated to create?
Alejandro:
For me, it’s a balance between routine and the unexpected. While exercising and meditation have become keystones of my mental health, I also try to fit as many activities involving new experiences in my schedule as possible. Be it seeing an exhibition, trying a new sport, getting lost around a part of the city you’ve never been to, or trying that fancy new cocktail bar you discovered last week.
Also, special mention to the occasional chatting with my creative friends Vivian, Lucía and Miguel over a cup of coffee. They’re incredibly inspiring people and their insight has got me out of a creative block more times than I can count (thanks guys!).
Matea:
Is there a type of animation you're interested in exploring?
Alejandro:
I’m always trying to learn new stuff but seeing so many talented people doing so many different things on social networks doesn’t really help with the fact that there are only so many hours in a day (ha!). So one can just set priorities, and my current priority is improving my frame-by frame animation skills. After this, I would love to start playing around with code and interactive animations.
Motion for Wearebold & Somosmejor’s branding of OEI
Matea:
Are there any upcoming projects you're excited to share this year?
Alejandro:
As for commissions, I’m particularly excited about the motion identity explorations I’m developing for a couple of design studios here in Spain. And in regards to personal/side projects, I’m working on my first short film that’s allowing me to explore new techniques. All I can say for now is that it’s about museums and some absurd things happening inside them ;)
Takeover Tuesday Veterans Day Edition with Jeffery Lawson
An interview with Jeffery Lawson: an Art director / Illustrator born and raised in NC who it a bit of a tactile tradesman , lover of all things nature and color.
Interviewer: Bella Alfonsi
Read time: 5min
Bella:
Thanks so much for joining us for Takeover Tuesday, Jeffery! Could you tell us about yourself?
Jeffery:
I am a Veteran, Art Director, Designer, and illustrator born and raised in North Carolina. Most of the work I love making is mixed with fun and a bit of thoughtfulness. I love printmaking and collecting vintage goosebumps books. I am a nature lover and 80’s horror movie aficionado and lover of all things spooky.
Bella:
How did you find your way into motion design? A bit of your background?
Jeffery:
That's a bit of an interesting story! Hold onto your seats, this one's a doozy. My journey into motion design looks like a bit of a treasure map with many points. In the early 2000’s I got started in design learning to be a screen printer and tattoo artist in my local area. Fast forward many moons later I ended up leaving my career in the military and going back to college to be a student.
A frame from Jeff’s Logitech project with Demo Duck.
Bella:
How was the transition from the military to being a student?
Jeffery:
It was by far one of the most challenging periods in my life. I like to call this my transition phase. My most memorable moment, which was the most challenging, was when I separated from the military on a Friday and Monday morning I was sitting inside a college classroom. It was a complete mental shock not only culturally but mentally as well. Having served in two combat zones made it a little harder given the difference between military life and civilian life. For example, there are strict timelines in the military, and transitioning to civilian life you no longer have those in place and must set them for yourself.
Bella:
What did you learn from being in the military that carries over into your career today?
Jeffery:
There are a few military lessons that I still carry with me but the most important comes from an old army leadership manual. For more about this topic, you can google the 4 c’s of army leadership.
Competence - This means being operationally and technically skilled at what the organization does. When one moves up their understanding of the entire process is far more important than technical skills.
Commitment- This means placing heart and soul not only into the organization but most importantly of all its people. For example, A great leader arrives an hour early and leaves an hour after the last team member clocks out. A committed leader takes the time to learn the habits of each team member and then leads them accordingly.
Candor - This means always being able to be candid at all levels regardless of position. Basically, it means being able to be honest about something regardless of how someone might feel.
Courage - This means having not only physical courage but moral courage to say and do what is right even if one must stand up to someone.
One of several concepts chosen for a client pitch for Tango Analytics
Bella:
What do you want to say to those who were in your shoes a few years ago?
Jeffery:
I'd tell them to reference an old proverb that goes like this “Seek and you shall find “. How this relates to your career is as follows.
1- Seek to fill the gap- There's a beautiful video series by Ira Glass that was shared with me called The Gap. In this video, he talks about going through a volume of work to fill the gap between where you are and where you want to be. My interpretation of this is something I always share with my mentees and I want to share it with you. In order to get where you are trying to go you have to fill this imaginary hole with things that are going to make you better. Examples of these things are tutorials, podcasts, lectures, meteors, personal work, feedback, and books.
2- Seek discipline - There's a great book out there that I've read several times called “Discipline Equals Freedom: Field Manual” by Jocko Willink which is essentially the key to filling the gap that I discussed above. The term discipline equals freedom applies to every aspect of your life and if you want more freedom you gotta get more discipline in your life.
3- Seek a village - There's a quote by the motivational speaker Jim Rohan that states that we are the average of the 5 people we spend our time with. My interpretation of this is that during my career so far I've befriended people who share similar values and beliefs as I do but who are also far more talented than me. By seeking a village of people who support you but who can also offer up honest advice it will help you see the chinks in your own armor and make you stronger.
Bella:
What are some of the techniques you use to create the work you do?
Jeffery:
A magician never tells his secrets, am I right? WRONG. To be super transparent I'm all over the place with techniques because I love exploring and experimenting. I will say that I consider myself a tactile tradesman of sorts. I enjoy integrating things that can be done using printed methods or by hand and merging them with digital aesthetics. For example, recently I had the pleasure of creating a title sequence project at Gunner School, and after brainstorming and pitching two directions I settled on one that used scanned-in elements from nature to emphasize the core elements of the movie.
Art Direction Jeff provided for Prisidio vis Demo Duck
Bella:
Do you have a favorite type of project to work on?
Jeffery:
This question is a bit of a hard one! In general, I have a deep appreciation for mixed media art. My interests span from collage to two-dimensional works and even dabble in a small touch of 3D. My preferred project styles can vary, but there's usually a common thread tying them together, and that's the element of enjoyment. Much of this passion is showcased on my website within a category I've named "TIDBITS," where I explore diverse artistic styles.
Bella:
You mentioned schooling and I see you recently attended Gunner School. What was that like?
Jeffery:
Attending Gunner School was a truly transformative experience. I had the privilege of exploring new ways of animation, thanks to the guidance and support of my peers and mentors. This opportunity encouraged my passion for learning and pushed me to unlock my potential. Through collaboration and hard work, I grew into a more confident and knowledgeable individual. This journey left a lasting impact on my life, opening doors to exciting possibilities and shaping my identity and outlook in profound ways.
Bella:
What are your goals for the next couple of years?
Jeffery:
Career:
1- Full-time employment with studio
2- Explore more creative styles of design
3- Publish a book on creative thinking
Personal:
1- Spend more time with family
2- Nurture more creatives
3- Watch more horror movies
Jeffery’s new demo reel.
Bella:
Was there ever a time when you didn't think breaking into Motion Design was even possible?
Jeffery:
Indeed, it's important to remember that every profession has its share of highs and lows, and taking that initial step can be quite challenging when embarking on any career journey. In my own experience, after graduating, I initially had a fantastic internship opportunity lined up, but unexpected circumstances threw a wrench in my plans. After this happened, luckily, I had the awesome support of a mentor whom I met through School of Motion to help me navigate such an event. Fast forward 8 months and with this person's help I had built a portfolio.
Bella:
Who are your personal heroes?
Jeffery:
Please bear with me as I share a touching story about my personal hero, Amanda Russell. Amanda is a Creative Director at CREAM Studio, and she is not only a highly accomplished professional but also an exceptional human being. Her boundless compassion has left an indelible mark on me that I try to emulate to others. Countless times, Amanda's unique blend of creativity and kindness has guided me through challenges in my own career that I couldn't have overcome on my own. In addition to her unwavering empathy, she serves as a deep wellspring of inspiration, embodying the qualities I deeply admire and aspire to cultivate in myself. Her steadfast commitment to creativity and the well-being of those around her should serve as a guiding light for anyone seeking a mentor in their career.
Bella:
Who are your personal heroes?
Jeffery:
Eddie: I was in the desert once, out in the middle of nowhere, absolutely nowhere. Just me, the sand, and silence. But if you know what to listen for, it ain’t silent out there. I heard a music out there I never heard before. In the silence. That’s what I’m after, kid. That’s intense. You dig down deep and touch something like that, people are gonna listen. They’ll listen to you because you got something to say! Not just something to show. You understand?
This quote comes from one of my favorite 80s movies called ‘Eddie and the Cruisers”. Sometimes you have to shut out all the noise of the world so you can hear your own internal voice. We all have an internal compass / creative voice we must listen to and when you add in the many distractions of the modern age it can get quite noisy. Enough to the point where you can't even discern what direction you should point your compass.
Takeover Tuesday with André Leite
An interview with André Leite: a motion designer and pizza lover from Brazil, currently living in Lisbon, Portugal.
Interviewer: Bella Alfonsi
Read time: 5min
Bella:
Thanks so much for joining us for Takeover Tuesday, Andre! Could you please give us a lil' intro?
André:
Hey there! I'm André Leite, a creative motion designer, punk rock enthusiast, and pizza lover, originally from Brazil, but currently rocking it in Lisbon, Portugal.
Bella:
How did your career in the motion industry start?
André:
This a long one…before diving into Motion, I went through various "fun" jobs. I worked at a skate shop, a tattoo studio, and also organizing music shows in Fortaleza (my hometown). By chance, in 2008, a friend invited me to work at a local TV network that only played music videos. I've always had a passion for videos and music, so when I saw the editing suites there, I thought to myself, "This is where I belong, sitting in the air conditioning (Fortaleza is crazy hot!) and editing MTV style segments - this is perfect!”
After learning how to edit, I started watching Andrew Kramer's videos and gradually transitioned from editing to VFX. I dived deeper into my studies through tutorials and books. In other words, I was completely self-taught on this journey.
I then began working at commercial production companies, where, in addition to editing and VFX, I was also required to animate texts, icons, packshots,
transitions, and more. It was there that I discovered the magical world of animation. Although I sometimes worked 14-18 hours a day and even slept several nights on an air mattress in the editing suite, I can say that this period was an intensive After Effects course. I faced all sorts of challenges and never had enough time. I struggled a lot, but I also learned a great deal.
After working some years at the top video production companies in Fortaleza, I moved to São Paulo, the land of opportunities. If you stand still for too long on street corner in São Paulo, a job might just fall and hit your head. After a while, throught networking, agencies and studios were constantly calling me to create explainer videos, which I loved because I found working with animation is much more enjoyable than VFX. I became a freelancer and never looked back. After a few of years, I wanted to challenge myself so, I bought "The Animator's Survival Kit" and focused my studies on character animation. And that's what I continue to do to this day.
A frame from André’s reel.
Bella:
With over 10 years of experience in the industry, how do you feel it has changed over time?
André:
Definitely, the amount of information and softwares is crazy now! Back when I started was challenging to find study materials, especially for those who didn't speak English. It was very rare to come across another motion designer. Nowadays, if you open a pack of cereal, you might even find a motion designer as prize…
Motion design has become incredibly popular. Every client wants or already has a motion video for their company. With each passing day, there is new information and techniques to study. At the same time, I really feel motion design has evolved into a vast international community, where practically anyone can participate, whether they're working in the field or simply appreciating the work. And events such as OFFF or Dash Bash really help to consolidate this sense of Community.
Bella:
What's the animation scene like in Portugal? Are your clients mostly there or do you find yourself working more internationally?
André:
When I arrived here in 2017, I was primarily working for the Portuguese market. It was great! I made a lot of networking connections, friends, and learned a lot. However, Portugal is a small country, and there aren't many clients with big budgets. So, gradually, I started seeking international clients to not solely depend on the local market. In my case, nowadays, I would say that I work 25% for Portugal and 75% overseas.I believe the studios here are doing the same, increasingly looking for international clients.
An undeniable fact about Portugal is the abundance of talent—there's truly a lot of it! However, when these talents are unable to work remotely, they often move to countries that offer better pay. Overall, I feel that with each passing year, the motion community in Portugal is stronger and more competitive.
Style frame from “Lagunitas IPA Day.”
Bella:
What's your process like for animating characters? What's your favorite thing about character animation?
André:
I'm a rebel who likes to do everything within After Effects, including the illustration, if possible. And I stick to the basic principles of animation.
I normally start by creating simple key poses, sometimes using "stick paths" just to understand what kind of rig I'll need. Once I have a simple rig for the character, I begin animating the in-between frames, and only then do I add details like lighting, shadows, and textures. I usually leave the animation of the head/face for last, I'm not sure why, probably it's just a habit.
Without a doubt what I enjoy the most is the challenge of always doing something new, either animating different art styles or trying out a new character movement that I've never done before. It constantly requires me to put my brain to work, figuring out how to achieve it, and it never gets boring.
Bella:
You've worked in so many different fun styles. Is there one you enjoy the most?
André:
To be honest, I don't have a preferred style, I simply enjoy animating. Nowadays, I have been able to choose
my projects with more aesthetic consideration, which is great! In the past, I animated numerous stock image characters, but now I tend to collaborate with illustrators who have their own unique style. In addition to character animation, I'm particularly drawn to animating technology videos in a UX/UI style, with all that gradients and abstract shapes, I love it!
Gif from the “Make your Flag Green” project.
Bella:
Is there a project you've worked on that stands out as a favorite to you?
André:
Yes! I’ve a project that is very dear to me, and surprisingly, it's a video without any characters. What makes me love this video so much is that it was created from scratch - script to final video by myself, my wife, and my former business partner— a very small team. We had limited time and resources, but it was a lot of fun to work on and it gained quite a lot of views on social media.
Here's the link for anyone who wants to check it out.
Bella:
When you find yourself in a creative rut, how do you get out of it? What or who inspires you?
André:
Well, I strive to remain in a perpetual state of motion, keeping myself updated both online and in the so-called "real world," although who knows if we're already in the Matrix after all these AI advancements. I go to museums, concerts, and industry conferences to seek
inspiration too. Sometimes, I observe people, like people riding bicycles on the streets, and that becomes a source of inspiration for animating a character. I’ve always been very observant, so be careful not to become a reference in my work!
Bella:
What's the proudest moment in your career thus far?
André:
The first time I worked for a major studio outside of Brazil I really felt like I had broken a barrier. After opening that door, international clients started coming one after another, leading to cooler projects, working with big teams and renowned brands.
Frame from the Shillington Manifesto - one of André’s favorite projects.
Bella:
Any final words of advice or projects coming up this year that you're excited about you'd like to share?
André:
Firstly, I would like to thank Dash for the invitation and acknowledge this initiative that, in my opinion, adds a lot to our community. Thank you!! \o/
A piece of advice for everyone starting in this field is to remember that it's not enough to master all the software. We must realize that a significant part of the work is communication. Often, the biggest challenge is understanding what the client truly wants and finding the best way to convey the message. Sometimes, it's something simple, yet powerful. What I mean is that having good communication with your client is more
valuable than spending nights trying to create something overly complex that isn't what the client desires but rather what you want.
Recently, I was invited to animate Colonel Sanders from KFC, which was awesome, because he is such a recognizable character. It was a super complex photo-collage project, but at the same time, a lot of fun. We are still working on the Behance page, but here is the final video. I hope you enjoy it:
Takeover Tuesday with Elyse Kelly
An interview with Elyse Kelly: a filmmaker who unites the unique characteristics of animation with documentary storytelling.
Interviewer: Bella Alfonsi
Read time: 5min
Bella:
Hi Elyse! Thanks so much for taking the time to join us on a Tuesday Takeover. For those who aren’t familiar with you or your work, could you tell us about yourself?
Elyse:
Hi! Thanks for having me. It's an honor to be in such good company with this series.
I'm a director based in Washington DC, as well as the founder of Neon Zoo. I'm best known for my work in the documentary world, but I've done a little bit of everything at this point in my career. Regardless of genre, what I love most is giving a platform to unexpected and untold stories.
I also teach animation at Georgetown University, which I'm told by my partner is my one true love when it comes to anything career related. Who knew!
Bella:
How did your career begin? Did you always know you wanted to be in the motion design industry?
Elyse:
To be honest, I don't know if I would consider myself to be in the motion design industry even now! I'm more of a "floater" (that's definitely going to read weird) between a bunch of different industries in our entertainment/media world.
I did always know that I wanted to work in animation though. Not to age myself... but I fell in love with animation after seeing the 1990 re-release of The Jungle Book in theaters. It totally amazed me to think that grownups could make cartoons for a living. What more could you ask for?
Of course, my journey to get where I am now was anything but linear, and includes everything from mocapping robots to cheesemongering and everything in between. But looking back on it all, it's amazing to think that I essentially achieved my childhood dream.
Style Frame from “Home School".”
Bella:
Tell us about your full-service animation studio, Neon Zoo!
Elyse:
Neon Zoo is a little over a year old now! But really it's much older than that in practice--it was a natural next step to the work I'd already been doing for years, which is directing/producing projects with the most creatively talented and joyful artists you could hope to work with. Definitely make sure to check out our portfolio to see all their credits--hire them, befriend them, and hug them for me if you live in the same city! I have too many Zoom friends... but now I'm rambling.
Building off of my work in the documentary world, our focus at the studio is to create both "impact-driven and artistically-minded content for film, television and the web." If we can use our skills to help uplift communities and important messages, that's where we're interested in spending most of our time.
In addition to that, we're continuing to invest in our community by supporting teammates in telling their own stories. We have a number of projects in development that range from very personal short docs to surreal narrative series to interdisciplinary productions. It's early days for a lot of them, but I can't wait to share them with you all.
Bella:
The motion design industry is full of folks who have extensive schooling and none at all. Do you feel like getting a Masters Degree in Animation and Digital Arts helped a bunch? Would you recommend higher-education for other folks?
Elyse:
Don't do it! Haha. I'm joking. Kind of.
I talk about this a lot with my students who oftentimes feel that they'll be at a disadvantage in the industry for not attending an art or film school. But there are so many different angles to approach a career in our field, especially if you want to direct. And the skills you use most in those roles aren't the ones you "learn" in school: good communication (see every relationship), effective sales (cheese shop), and compassionate leadership (real estate firm).
Grad school is a huge financial commitment; you can't quite wrap your brain around it when you're younger, or at least I couldn't. So what I would say is think about what you're looking to get out of a formal education: is it skills? Contacts? Time? If you have the means and feel that it's worth the cost (in all senses of the word), go for it. But if it's not for you, that's ok. There are definitely alternative places to learn, and build your community.
And while I don't think grad school was necessarily the right fit for me, I did meet lifelong friends and creative partners that I'll always carry with me. That wasn't my "goal" going in, but it's definitely not something I would trade.
Also, I did learn one CRITICAL lesson in grad school: YOU DON'T HAVE TO ANIMATE ON 1s?! (shoutout to Sara Spink and Willie Williams! IYKYK).
Frame from “Johnny’s Home” - a 2018 Annecy Selection.
Bella:
You have a super impressive resume of clients (Netflix, the ACLU, Sony Music, etc.) as well as awards (Emmy, Webby, Addy, etc)! Tell us a little bit about that.
Elyse:
It always sounds so fancy when you line everything up together. What I'll say is that I've been incredibly lucky to have worked for and with incredibly talented people--clients who trust us to bring their stories to life, and artists who pour their hearts into every project that we do. All of that comes through in the work.
Bella:
You are an amazing storyteller and all of the work you’ve directed evokes such emotion. Where do you find inspiration for the stories you tell?
Elyse:
That means a lot. Thanks so much.
The inspiration always comes from the people featured in the work. That's definitely true with documentary projects, but applies to my other work as well. I start by asking the basic questions, "Who is this person? What is their story?" You can tell a lot about someone by the way they tell their own story--their tone, when they pause, what makes them cry (and sometimes more importantly what doesn't). As a director, it's my job to figure out how to translate that in the most authentic way possible. Being the custodian of someone else's story is a lot of responsibility, and not one that I take lightly. Every creative decision is made not just in service of "the art", but with that person and their experience in mind--they are my audience and end game. If I can ensure that our work connects with and respects those people, anything else is just icing.
Letter to Body.
Bella:
How do you get yourself out of a creative rut?
Elyse:
Great question. I feel like I'm continuing to evolve my approach to this. One thing that I'm working to be better at is giving myself the time and space to just "be". There's a lot of pressure as a creative to always be doing, making, creating. I've found that I'm most creative after I've taken time for myself, even if it's just a walk around the neighborhood. It's obvious, but definitely a lesson I keep reminding myself of. I've also learned over the years not to put too much pressure on having to make "my own" work. We pour so much of ourselves into everything we do, including client work, that sometimes that's enough for me to be creatively fulfilled. Plus those client projects help me flex my creative muscles while giving space to simmer on all the personal stuff that I'm excited about.
Bella:
What’s your favorite thing about being a director?
Elyse:
My team. Day in and day out. Their passion and insane talents inspire me, drive me to be better, and really make this job worth it. And to go back to the previous question, definitely help pull me out of those creative ruts!
Bella:
As someone with over 15 years of experience in the industry, where do you think the future of the motion design industry is headed? And how is it already different now than it was 15 years ago?
Elyse:
This is a big one. It reminds me of the classic, "Where do you want to be in five years?" interview question that was always so stressful to answer.
We're definitely at a crossroads in a lot of respects across the entire animation and media industry--insane technology advancements, unionizations, the further commercialization of art, the continued fight to bring more diversity to the table, etc. It can feel like a lot, so instead of a prediction, what I would say is that we need to keep pushing. Pushing for spaces like this that champion unique voices and honest conversations, pushing to give anyone and everyone the opportunity to tell their stories, pushing this artform forward because of the love we have for it. It's been a weird few years, and as cheesy as it sounds we need to continue investing in ourselves and our community because no one else is going to do it for us.
Either that, or we all just escape to one of those Italian villages they've been giving away for free. Who's with me?!
The Speech Wars.
Bella:
Any final advice/takeaways?
Elyse:
I've already talked too much! Thanks for listening.
("Applications" for Italy will be opening soon.)
Meet the speakers: Amanda Godreau
An interview with Amanda Godreau, a Puerto Rican multidisciplinary artist. Through bold work, Amanda lends her creative vision across multiple mediums, showcasing her appreciation for the beauty of design throughout unique spaces.
Q&A hosted by Meryn Hayes and Ashley Targonski.
Read time: 15min
Meryn Hayes:
Amanda, welcome. For those who don't know you, I'd love it if you could give a quick intro and how you got into motion design.
Amanda Godreau:
I got into motion design completely by accident, which is something that I always love to tell people. I think once you're in it, you really start to see that it's everywhere. I went to college originally for coding and then transferred to college in Florida for graphic design, and they just so happened to have one of the best motion design programs there. And a really talented professor found me, and said, "You need to change careers."
I was like, "All right." And it was just, it's been a whirlwind since. I feel like every single year I've learned something really different.
Meryn Hayes:
I think many people can relate to finding their way into this industry. I think this industry gets people from all kinds of career backgrounds, which I think is one of the really unique things about it.
Amanda Godreau:
I completely agree. I think throwing out the plan has been such a good thing for me. I think even as of six months ago, what I had planned just completely flipped. And I think learning to embrace it has only been to my benefit. It's been to the benefit of people around me, and I think it should be discussed more. I don't think you can plan for most things in life.
Meryn Hayes:
Absolutely. Well, that leads really nicely into my next question; so you graduated about a year ago, right? Did you have a lot of expectations of what was going to happen after graduation? I mean, what was the plan?
Amanda Godreau:
I feel like I wasn't entirely sure what I wanted to do when I graduated. To be completely honest, I didn't even know if I wanted to continue in the same field. I was heavily considering shifting to another industry altogether. And I knew the one thing in my plan was to rest. I came out of art school extremely burnt out. And that's something that needs to be talked about more. There’s something that TJ touched on last time at Dash Bash, I remember being a student watching his panel, and that it was a very big moment for me. I remember thinking "Someone who has been in this industry for so long is acknowledging it, I need to pivot and think about how to build rest to what I'm doing."
That was the plan post-grad, was to rest, and recharge because I knew that the aftermath of being so heavily focused on my career. To be able even to say you have a career in college is crazy, right? I realized I needed to allow myself time to be a 20-year-old in my early twenties, and as a result that’s been really beneficial to my career as well, I think.
Meryn Hayes:
That's so important because as we all know, finding inspiration in your art, in your work has to happen outside of your computer, outside of your desk. Being inspired by things, having a life, and especially at a young age. Feeling like you have the freedom and ability to find who you are because at that age you're still figuring out, "Who am I?" I mean, I'm still figuring out who I am. You need space in your life and to not have everything planned out in such a way that it constricts you from figuring out who that is before you really even started.
Amanda Godreau:
Yeah. And that's all to the benefit of the art. I feel like the moments where I had the hardest time making art, creating art, and making art that I was proud of were the moments where I was pushing myself so much that I had nowhere to draw from. If you're not connected to yourself first, you can't make something that's supposed to connect with others. So, I laid aside any professional aspirations I had. Including what studios I wanted to work with and what I wanted to do. I laid it to bed five to six months after graduating because I realized that even if I could do it, I was really going to enjoy doing it. And ultimately, I feel like enjoying the art you're making and your work is the top priority.
Meryn Hayes:
Yeah, absolutely. And in terms of finding your style and what brings you joy and the work that you do after graduation, what was your approach to finding that?
Amanda Godreau:
Finding the work that I enjoy making, I think, for me, has had to do with connecting with so many different people and so many different types of artists. My number one goal this year was to chat with people, learn, and view outside of my lived experience. And that inspired me to make many choices in how I approach my art. I was really fortunate last year. I got to go to Portugal for NFC Portugal. It was just this gigantic NFT conference, no motion designers, I think I was the only of the few ones there.
Even though personally I'm not active in the NFT community, I got to chat with people who are so invested in it, and at the end of the day, everyone's making art, right? Connecting with just people as artists outside of a commercial or traditional background has been so valuable.
Something I started to do as well was to connect with smaller BIPOC and female-owned brands, and I've been working one-on-one with a couple, developing renders pro bono, and just making art with women that I connect with. And that's been a really good way for me to give back, push my creative vision forward, and also feel like I'm doing meaningful work that serves an ethical but also spiritual purpose for me. And that's been really good.
Meryn Hayes:
That's amazing. How were you making those connections with artists after graduation?
Amanda Godreau:
I was chronically online in undergrad; a lot of these connections were friends or people that I had connected with during this time when everyone was online because of the pandemic. I've gotten to travel so much and be like, "Oh my God, we've known each other for four years; we've never met, let's hang out," And that's led to even more connections and more people. And I feel like it's snowballed into this gigantic network of people that I feel like I've known for years, and also simultaneously feel like I don't know it all.
Meryn Hayes:
I think that's one of the things that I am just so appreciative about this industry and this community is that willingness to just chat. I mean, my background is in photography. I ended up here because I found myself at a marketing agency here in Raleigh, which is where I met Mack and Cory who founded Dash. But before I joined, I had been involved in animation and live-action projects, but this whole motion community was completely over my head. And so, as soon as I joined, I just realized how kind everyone was and willing to share their experiences, which I just feel is pretty rare in most industries, but especially in art. I just can't imagine photographers, I don't know, sharing their problems or I just think it's a really special place to be able to find that.
Amanda Godreau:
I agree. I think this community is extremely generous. I think this community overall is extremely humble and I think it's really open. I think there's a lot of room for people to grow in all sorts of directions and I feel like you can almost always find someone to relate to in at least some sense. And everyone's cheerleaders for each other. I don't think, at least the people I intentionally try to connect with and stay in touch with, I feel like everyone's so proud of each other at the end of the day, not just for professional reasons, but for artistic reasons, right?
Something I've tried to make a very different distinction this year is the difference between being a designer and being an artist. I think before this year, I would be a designer and people would ask me, "What's your style?" And I'd respond by saying, "I don't have a style. I follow a brief. I'm a designer, I'm a problem solver." This year I'm getting to explore an artistic side of myself and acknowledging that side, I wasn't open to it at the time, and just starting to understand the difference has been a really big conversation among a lot of people in the community. I think it’s been a really great one.
Meryn Hayes:
Absolutely. I mean, again, going back to your whole life, you're given briefs in college and growing up, about who you're supposed to be or what you're supposed to be doing. And so, for the first time, you're actually trying to figure out, "Who am I?" Both personally and artistically. So, really giving yourself that space on both sides of that coin is just so important.
Amanda Godreau:
Yeah, I agree.
Meryn Hayes:
So, timeline here, so you were in the middle of college when the pandemic started?
Amanda Godreau:
Yeah, I was in my sophomore year. I had done one year in person, at that point II had done one semester of After Effects and one semester of Cinema 4D when then the whole world shut down. That was completely unexpected.
Meryn Hayes:
Yeah. And so, how do you feel, I mean, it's all you've known, so hard to compare, but how do you feel that changed your trajectory of what you were learning or how you were learning or learning from other students?
Amanda Godreau:
I think it completely changed the trajectory of my career for sure. I think as for socially, I don't think it left me with much of a college experience or much ability to connect with other people, but that's a completely different topic in itself. I think what that period of online learning gave me was my career. I started freelancing full-time after my second internship. I completely attribute that to the amazing opportunity that Gunner gave me. They hired me as their intern that summer. I wrote them this very dorky email being like, "I really want to work with you guys, and I can work remotely. I'm super good at it, I promise.
I was able to freelance every single year after that. I think about my choice of going freelance after college versus taking a staff job often.
Had there been more in-person opportunities to be in a studio with people collaborating, looking over monitors, going staff would've been more of a consideration for me. But at the end of the day, when I graduated, everything was still Zoom-oriented. I felt most comfortable staying freelance and meeting new people and teams.
Meryn Hayes:
Yeah, that's really interesting. We were down at SCAD at CoMotion back in March and talking to students who are about to graduate and obviously, there's a lot of opportunities going in staff or freelance and trying to give them some advice about options. And I always like to be very clear that I only have ever done 9-5 staff jobs, agency jobs, or in-house. So, I don't have the freelance perspective of freedoms, so I can only offer it slightly one-sided, and I hate to sound like Boomery, but I just know that early in my career I learned so much by sitting at a desk next to somebody just looking at asking questions, looking at their screen.
And so, part of me just feels for students who are graduating who don't have opportunities like that, or like you said, even now a lot of staff jobs are remote or hybrid and that's like, "Why am I going to go into the studio to then remote into somebody in Wisconsin or California?" And so, just finding out what people want to get out of that first experience after college and trying to find whether that's freelance or staff.
Amanda Godreau:
I think the industry, in general, is going to find itself with a very different type of workforce because of this, I personally have the opinion that it ripples down 100%. You have people two years before me, so many people who graduated in 2020. The industry was so focused on just how to switch and not lose these giant pitches and how we work, which fair, needed to happen but left a gigantic question mark on how students and upcoming graduates view the industry.
Meryn Hayes:
Good leading question. I was going to go, "How, Amanda, do you fix it?" But you're going to tell us in at the Bash.
Amanda Godreau:
Going back to Ringling in March. I found a lot of good insight. I did this amazing long two-day portfolio review with Doug Alberts from Noodle, and we got to talk one-on-one to students, and I really asked them, "How do you feel about this community? How well do you feel about jobs? What's your experience? Do you feel prepared as a senior?" And I got to get all this amazing feedback that I think is really informing how I'm trying to shape this presentation.
I had an existential crisis when you guys asked me to speak because I was like, "How am I supposed to speak to a room of people who have decades of experience over me?" I think my art is awesome, I'm my art's number one cheerleader, but we're in this very interesting time where there's so much more conversation to have about what we can do to support the youngest people in our industry and how that is essential for the better of everyone. That's what I'm interested in right now.
Meryn Hayes:
I mean, well, now I feel bad that we caused an existential crisis.
Amanda Godreau:
No, it was a good one.
Meryn Hayes:
Okay, good. But I think we would be remiss to not think about the younger generation. I mean, there's two schools of thought that we need to figure out how people retire in this industry. That's a whole other thing. But on the other side of that coin is figuring out what has changed in the last two, three, four decades as people have come into this industry. And hearing from people like you or others who are just getting into it. I mean, you have a valuable perspective, and if we don't account for both sides of that coin... We need to figure out how to include all of those ideas.
Amanda Godreau:
Yeah.
Ashley Targonski:
I think what's great about what you're talking about is it's a perspective that not a lot of our other speakers have because they have been in the industry for a while. So, hearing from someone who is newer in the industry, you've gone through all of this, I think it's going to be so interesting to hear you talk about that. And I think that's one of the main reasons we're doing this conference is to have real talks about the industry and really dive into these topics that you wouldn't normally hear.
Amanda Godreau:
I really struggled with figuring out what to talk about because, ideally a presentation, a 40, 50-minute presentation about my work would be amazing. But if I have faith in myself that I'm going to have a very long and probably great career, there's going to be so many more opportunities for me to do that. I think right now, we have a gigantic young workforce that really needs their voice to be heard. Even though this is just my perspective and my interpretation, hopefully, it's a great starting point to get the conversation going. That's my goal.
Meryn Hayes:
Yeah, I love that. Getting back into some of the work, what was it? So, you started doing graphic design when you switched to Ringling, and then a professor pulled you into animation, and pretty immediately, you headed to the 3D space?
Amanda Godreau:
No, I think we did 3D in our second year. So, the year that the world shut down in the spring, we took one introductory 3D class that was mandatory. I didn't even know 3D existed. I just fell into the course, and I was like, "Oh, this is so amazing."
Apart from coding, I was really invested in photography. When I started using 3D and Cinema- 4D, it felt natural. I could understand light, and the physics of it because I'd had to think about strobes, posing, etc. It felt a lot more familiar to me than traditional After Effects animation. I've always considered myself a designer, and I felt like there were infinitely more possibilities for me to design in a 3D space than a two-dimensional one without having also to animate. Animating is cool, it's just not my first love.
Meryn Hayes:
I love that. And I mean, it definitely seems like a natural progression of where your interests and your skills lie. And so, heading into a 3D direction, how have you been able to find clients as you started freelancing?
Amanda Godreau:
I’ve been really fortunate to have had an amazing and generous network that got me up an running while I was in school. It was a very, I think, organic thing. Post grad I’ve enjoyed collaborating with the small businesses that I've been working with independently and that’s been a different experience. It’s a very meticulous, and consistent effort. I have this gigantic spreadsheet, and I did so much outreach trying not to sound like a spam email, essentially me being like, "Hey, work with me. I won't charge you or I'll charge you pennies." And they're like, "This isn't real."
I think I get a lot of young people who are still in college or while I was in college and they're like, "Would you recommend me going freelance?" And I would always say, "Absolutely not unless you have a big network of friends and colleagues” it’s a risky career move that requires you to be savvy not just creatively but financially.
Meryn Hayes:
Yeah, absolutely. Well, that's why I got to think, again, as someone who hasn't freelanced, that just so much of it is about the connections you make. And so, going freelance right out of college to be really successful has to be a challenge. And the amount of connections that it takes and the outreach and the upkeep, I mean, those are just things that they weren't teaching when I went to college. And I just have to think a part of, as you say, as things shift with this new generation, how we teach them has to change too. It's not as it was in the olden days.
I was just telling Ashley earlier today we got a request from a client we've never worked with. It was a recommendation from some Mographers that I talked to literally three years ago. I haven't spoken with them since or really kept up a lot and they just must have mentioned our name to this client and here we are. And so, it just goes to show that those connections and that, they really matter and making a good impression and just reminding yourself that stuff might not immediately turn into a project or a relationship, but three years down the line it might, you never know.
Amanda Godreau:
Yeah, that's literally what I try to remind people. And I also try to remind people that I had a very non-traditional experience. I didn't just go to art school, I went to NYU for coding, before NYU I had a little bit of a stint in a university in Puerto Rico which got interrupted by the gigantic hurricane that we got hit with. That’s what brought me to the US in the first place. Before then, I was always really interested in spreadsheets and finances and business. I assisted wedding photographers for five years from middle school to high school. So, I was really used to working with people who owned their own businesses, doing a lot of the upkeep, the follow-up. I almost feel like the creative side has been the easiest in my freelance journey.
There's so many things that are just soft skills that go hand in hand with freelancing. I almost feel like I fell into it.
Meryn Hayes:
Well, it sounds like, again, you worked really hard, but a lot of the disparate skills all connected to make this a really useful tool for you as you started. I mean, that's something that Ashley and I, producing is just a whole set of soft skills and something that if you go out freelancing without having been in-house or at an agency, you're essentially your own producer as well. And there's a reason why we exist. It's a whole job outside of the creative and not being exposed to what that entails I think sometimes causes people to start freelancing and then they think they're a failure of not being successful when they just haven't set themselves up to be successful because they didn't know it existed. You know? Don't know what you don't know.
Amanda Godreau:
Yeah, exactly. Producing is a whole other thing. I actually considered doing a production internship after graduating because I'm so interested in it. But again, I feel like that's just where my interest lies. Production to me is as interesting as creating and I don't think that's a very popular opinion. I might be wrong.
Meryn Hayes:
We love hearing it, we love to hear that.
Amanda Godreau:
Yeah! Many of my good friends are producers. I strongly believe that the success of a creative project is dependent on the work that goes before you even start thinking about what it looks like. And I think that's pretty cool of you guys.
Ashley Targonski:
Looking at your growth path, I thought it was really interesting that you had a talk with Maxon in 2021 when you were still in school. You've also won their Rookie Award. So, I wanted to see how that journey and experience because you were so new at the Cinema 4D program, but then you're talking about it just seeing it a year later, which is amazing.
Amanda Godreau:
Yeah, I feel like all my experiences have been so surreal. When Maxon reached out asking me to present at their 3D Show I was like, "Are you aware that I've been using this program for under a year?" At that point.
I think I've had to constantly reinforce that I’m deserving of the opportunities that come my way. Imposter syndrome is so real. Sarah Beth did an amazing talk at the Bash last time. I think perspective is the most important thing we can have. I think my art is awesome and while I might not be the most technically experienced person in the room, I have such a passion for design, I feel like I'm very methodical in the ways that I do and that has inherent value…
It really resonated with me when you mentioned about how you appreciated the topic of which I'm speaking on about at Dash this year because it's something that compared to the rest of the lineup of the speaker, is very unique to my experience. I feel like that's how I've approached my career in general because although this is a very young industry and figuring out how people are even going to retire in this industry is a big question mark, looking at what I can give, being like, "Okay, I'm this person in this room, what can I do to not just be of use for myself, but to others?"
Ashley Targonski:
I really love that. And just I think you understand that while you're still in college and it's something that you're living by even today as you continue to grow as an artist, that's really cool because in college I was like, "I don't know what I'm doing." I'm just going with the flow.
Amanda Godreau:
No one knows. Yeah, I think it's so powerful and it's if you don't learn how to do that, especially as women, especially as a Black woman, it's so easy to undervalue yourself. "Oh, I'm not the smartest. Oh, I don't have the most years of experience. Oh, I've never done this before." I think shaping your perspective is vital to existing in this industry as someone who's not typically what you think of when you think of a CG designer.
Meryn Hayes:
That is so important. I mean, I think nobody knows what they're doing and when you figure that out, it helps a whole hell of a lot. I think as women we've spent way too much time doubting ourselves and trying to find space where normally you would be in that place of self-doubt.
Think about all the other things, all of the other time we would have, if we weren't doubting ourselves for every second of every day or every move, or how do we sound in X email? I mean, I have had to do a whole heck of a lot of unlearning to ignore those instincts. When you get in moments of self-doubt like that, where do you go? What's your headspace? How do you combat that?
Amanda Godreau:
I think I just remind myself that my career isn't that important. And I know that sounds counterproductive, but coming from a different culture where work isn't seen as the number one thing you strive for has been a huge factor. I've only lived stateside for four and a half years, and I think people forget that because they don't hear an accent.
In devaluing the amount of importance that I place on my career previously, I’ve been able to shift my headspace to, "I'm going to show up because I want to, not because I have to." At least for me, that’s flipped my mindset into being able to set better boundaries with myself and others work-wise and personally. I also have put a lot of importance into making friends with people who have nothing to do with the creative world. I have friends who are engineers and city planners, etc. Being around people who can separate my creative value from my personal value, especially this year has made the biggest difference.
It’s made me realize the importance of separating your own self-worth to what other people creatively think about you or as a professional. That's been really important.
Meryn Hayes:
Yeah, that's a good point. It's like we're so ingrained in our little bubble that it's a good reminder that a whole world, a whole lot of worlds exist outside of the Mograph community. And again, going back to how the world inspires art, talking with people outside of the community and talking with people in different disciplines, all of that is stuff that can give you an idea or inspire you in ways you weren't expecting. And also, it's just nice to meet people who are not the same as you.
Amanda Godreau:
Yeah, it's so much easier. Like, can we talk about how successful everyone in this industry is? No matter what they do. I remember last year being a senior or graduating and being like, "Oh my God, I'm so behind." I used to be so hard on myself.
It's not until I started hanging out with other people in their early twenties in other career paths, that I got a really healthy dose of, "You need to get some perspective." Because it can be really deceptive to be surrounded by, studio owners, successful freelancers, art directors, and NFT artists who all are financially doing so well.
It’s easy to forget what you do have, and what you should be grateful for. It's been so helpful for me to just sit down and be like, "You're losing perspective. You have ownership of your own time. You set your own salary. You get to pick and choose and say yes and no to work opportunities. And that's not something that most people ever get to do, period."
Meryn Hayes:
Well, I hope everyone comes to the Bash for many reasons, but I hope that that is one thing that people can take away from the Bash. I mean, back in 2021, I just feel like the honesty and the stories we got from our speakers last time were in comparison to all conferences or design festivals. It wasn't just get up there and talk about your work for 45 minutes and, "Oh, I worked with Nike and Google, and look how successful I am." But it's, "Here's why this was a challenge. Here's where I thought my career was over and then I started something new." Or fuck hustle, what TJ said, so having those honest conversations because everything's bright and shiny and if we all look successful, that's great.
But then for students who are just starting, or people just entering the industry, not even just students. You automatically feel like a failure if you're not an award-winning studio owner or you sold an NFT for a bajillion dollars. And so, that imposter syndrome is easy to walk into because you just walk into the industry doubting yourself.
Amanda Godreau:
Yeah, it's so bad. And like Ashley mentioned I was doing the Maxon 3D show. I won the Rookie Award. I graduated I got to have my work in Beeple’s studio opening in North Carolina. I remember that last experience so well because I felt like I couldn't look at my own work on a screen.
I felt like a complete imposter. I was like, "This isn't real.” "I don't want to look at my work." And I had to seriously sit myself down that night and be like, "What's going on? Am I the only one that feels this way? Why do I feel this way?" It’s so easy to think people don’t feel that way about their own work when you’re just experiencing them through social media. I’ve had students come up to me and say "I don't feel great, and I have to feel great to be able to do what you do." And I'm like, "The secret is I'm still learning how to feel great about it." I'm still learning how to accept it, how to not minimize my hard work, how to not just say, "It fell into my lap, or it was just luck."
And acknowledge that there were so many hours put in, so much burnout that happened. Giving yourself credit for the things you’ve accomplished is definitely something that’s been a learned skill. Despite how I might feel sometimes, I can often acknowledge that you can hold two truths at the same time.
Meryn Hayes:
Yeah, I mean, even in this conversation, you said that everything fell into your lap, but you worked really hard and then the right opportunity came along. Those two things, those truths can be true.
Amanda Godreau:
Exactly. I have to catch myself all the time.
Ashley Targonski:
I think that's something I've had to also deal with a lot is imposter syndrome. And I was managing teams and I was still like, "Why are they asking me to do stuff? Because I don't know what I'm doing." And I obviously did. But I think a large thing that you're saying that I really think is great is you are meeting all these people, you're creating opportunities for yourself to have more opportunities in the future. So, just taking every chance you have to be able to have another opportunity later. I think that's so important for when you're young, but then also as you continue to grow throughout your career.
Amanda Godreau:
Yeah, I mean, it reminds me of why I do what I do. Yesterday I had this amazing call with the founder of a brand. She founded a brand for this luxury fragrance spray. They've won all these awards. The founder is also Black and she's manufacturing this in the Bronx which is amazing. When I saw her brand I immediately messaged her, and I was like, "Oh my God, I love your perfume. Can I please work with you? You don't have to pay me. Can I just please help support this vision?" And I got a call with her yesterday, and she's said, "You don't know how hard I've looked for a creative that understands my perspective." "I looked everywhere. I couldn't find anyone." "How do you find other people creatives like you?"
And I remember telling her, "I don't know. I don't really know anyone like me."
That's a conversation I've had so many times. I think even last year, Meryn, when I was on Sarah Beth's Motion Coven podcast, I mentioned the number of times I get on a call where I'm the only woman there, and it’s assumed I'm the producer instead of a 3D designer."
I always ask people, "Hey, does anyone ever know another Black female 3D artist?” Looking at how big our industry is, I can't find someone who looks like me in the same feild. I don’t think that's something that everyone who does have that privilege is entirely conscious of.
Motion Design feels like a family to so many folks in it, or at least that’s a sentiment I’ve heard enough to remember. But it has to feel like that for more than a homogenous group. There was a very visible push for DEI initiatives around 2020 and George Floyd’s murder but efforts have become less and less public as time has passed.
Meryn Hayes:
Well, A, I'll see those people out personally. I think it's also how we move forward holistically for a sustained period of time. Like you said that there was this big push after George Floyd's murder. Everyone posted on social media and talked about bringing in more diverse groups and finding freelancers in communities that weren't of their own. But that push has to continue and be sustained across the entire industry. It's hard to push a rock up a hill if you're just by yourself, right? It has to be the community. And so, obviously, that's something that we've talked a lot about internally.
And I was, back in March, in CoMotion, we had a diversity and equity panel. We were talking and someone in the audience asked how we felt about the industry moving ahead, looking ahead. And I think the thing that boggles my mind is looking at the crowd at CoMotion, looking at Ringling, the minority of people in that group was white men by far. There were more women in the audience at CoMotion, and most of them were not white. And so, I have hopes looking ahead that the opportunities that people are given now, finding communities, like the animation industry can happen at earlier ages, right? In college. But the barriers of cost and equipment and finding places like SCAD or Ringling, I mean, that's a huge investment that communities don't have the opportunity to find.
Amanda Godreau:
I also think that looking at colleges specifically, art colleges, student bodies aren't the best way to project what the industry is going to look like. I think that while it's great to have hope in what student bodies look like, that's not going to change until the people doing the hiring have more knowledge, and perspective to be able to acknowledge what our biases are.
You have to acknowledge it in order to move past it. It might not seem like an issue to most people, because in theory your race, gender, or identity has nothing to do with the technical aspects and ability of doing a job. However, it leaves a gigantic void for mentorship. I want to be an art director, ideally a creative director, at some point in my career but I can't point to what that looks like for a Black woman. I can't ask anyone for advice and be like, "As a Black woman, how did you navigate x, y z to become a creative director?" There's no one that I know of for me to ask. And I've asked. I've asked every single time I'm on a call with a studio, when they ask, "Do you have any questions?" My question is, "Do you know any Black women AD’s, CDs?" I'm actively asking.
Even if I am here moving through my career, the road to success for these career paths is inherently absent.
Meryn Hayes:
Insane.
Ashley Targonski:
This ties into something we talked to Macaela from Newfangled about, but they have created a DIB section of their company. And when they work on projects, they find people in those communities who actually work on those projects and understand. They do the research; they talk to them about their experiences. And I think that's so integral to... That's what everyone should be doing. We should really be understanding, we shouldn't have this person on this project that doesn't know anything about what we're doing. Let's talk to the communities. Yeah.
Amanda Godreau:
I also think that leads to a really good opportunity to talk about possible jobs in this industry that don't exist in this industry. Because listen, I can say all day that my information is in my bio, on my website. But the truth is, producers are often also super overworked. You can't expect them to be reading the bio of every single artist that they're reaching out to. It's impossible.
I feel like that's a huge opportunity in motion design that could lead to even more jobs and a more diverse workforce. Producers do so much, they keep track of so many things.
Meryn Hayes:
I was also just re-reading Bien’s blog post for their Q&A, and they were talking about Double the Line efforts. Do you know about that program?
Amanda Godreau:
I don't!
Meryn Hayes:
It comes from the Association of Independent Producers (AICP, essentially for every job they have, they create a second line item in the budget for whatever it is, cel animation or illustration, to bring on an underrepresented minority group. So, a Black cel artist to pair with a senior cel artist so that they get opportunities to work on a project or on a client work that otherwise they wouldn't get. And then they have that as an opportunity to show on their portfolio, like, "Hey, I did this."
And so, bringing people into positions that they previously wouldn't have an opportunity because they don't have the connections yet. We talked about how important those connections are early on in finding jobs or careers.
Amanda Godreau:
That's amazing. I think that's an amazing thing for a studio to be doing. Going back to the conversation about SCAD and Ringling, I think that also has to be part of the conversation is that while it might be really convenient for studios to hire out of Ringling and SCAD because it's the standard, and you do come out industry ready. I think there are a lot of colleges and programs that are also overlooked that might have equally as amazing talent.
Last year I went to speak to the students at CUNY in Brooklyn. To my surprise when I arrived, I realized that not only was the professor Black, but so was the entire student body. Not only that but mostly black women. This was a Cinema 4D class.
I think that's the only time in my career where I've been in a room full of people who looked like me. I felt really conflicted when I left because they were there, talented, and learning with such amazing questions, and I couldn’t give them advice that was relevant to their experience. I had a huge leg up with going to a private art institution.
I carry some privileges. I feel very conflicted when I’m used as an example for someone who is a minority who’s moving through our industry. I often feel like the worst example. I went to a very expensive art school. I so happened to have my own business in high school that paid for a huge chunk of my college education. I come from a family of academics and had little to no barrier for entry when applying for college." While my experience has value, merit and includes a lot of hard work. No one should be used as a rule for "If they did it, why can’t you?"
Meryn Hayes:
Yeah, yeah. I think that's a good reminder. Just like you said that again, it's setting people up for failure, right? When you don't see all of those privileges that you know you've had and that I know I've had, and other people have had. You don't see that. And when you compare yourself to someone else, "Amanda did it, why aren't you doing it?"
Amanda Godreau:
Yeah.
Meryn Hayes:
Thank you. We're just so glad to have you come in and really can't thank you enough for participating, being willing, and we're looking forward to your talk!
Amanda Godreau:
I'm so excited. This is my favorite conference.
Ashley Targonski:
Can we quote you on that?
Amanda Godreau:
Yeah, totally.
Meryn Hayes:
It's going to be the Bash, the homepage. It's going to be a huge quote. Amanda says...”MY FAVORITE CONFERENCE”
Meryn Hayes:
Cool. Good chatting, Amanda. We'll see you soon!
Meet the speakers: Wes Louis
An interview with Wes Louis: a director, designer, and animator at The Line known for his unique design sensibility and his dramatic action-led animation sequences.
Q&A hosted by Mack Garrison.
Read time: 15min
Mack Garrison:
Wesley, I'm really pumped for this conversation because, well, one, if you don't know this already, you guys do phenomenal work. I mean, the cel work you guys produce, just really top tier, top quality.
Wes Louis:
Thank you, man, I appreciate that.
Mack Garrison:
I was talking to Dotti over at Golden Wolf, because she was at the Bash last time. She spoke on behalf of Golden Wolf there. She was talking about how highly she thinks of you guys and that for a long time you kept winning and losing to each other on pitches. It was just always you guys going back and forth.
Wes Louis:
Yeah, that is exactly right. They would do something and then we would do something, and they would do something but it feels kind of healthy. It's strange to say, because you think to yourself, "Well, I mean they are a rival company," but actually we have quite a good relationship with them. Anytime they have their summer parties or other events, they invite us over. We have a good laugh and a few drinks, so it's a healthy competitive space.
Mack Garrison:
I remember getting out of school and being so green in this space, not knowing anything, but how many people were willing to help me. Even growing from junior up to senior as an animator, and then again, starting the studio, and how people were just willing to share advice. I've never met a space that feels as communal as the motion design space really is.
Wes Louis:
I just think it’s what makes the space a better place to work in. No one's holding their cards too close to their chest. It's weird, because intuitively you’d think keeping what's unique about you secret would be the way to go but, the opposite has benefits. One of our other directors, Sam, always talks to guys from Animade or Moth Collective about all sorts. We all go to the same festivals, hang out and talk. "Well how did you do that or show the best way to do this?" it's a weird but nice little community we have
Mack Garrison:
It feels different, because I feel like it's not like that in the rest of the creative space. Even agencies, I know agencies are kind of cutthroat with each other, but studios, for whatever reason, it's not. I think it's because, as a studio owner, I feel like people start studios because they really love a singular craft.
Wes Louis:
Yeah, exactly, you're coming from the same place. And I think with us specifically, because all the directors of the company, we're all animators or compositors, we all come from creative backgrounds. I think we just have more of an understanding of people that work with us as well. So we understand burnout, we understand what it feels like not to want to work on something that maybe you're not feeling inspired by.
Mack Garrison:
So I run Dash with a business partner. We were both animators back in the day. We animated for basically a decade before trying our hand at running a shop and I think there's a difference. When leadership knows how to animate, you don't put your team in bad situations. Even just understanding what's reasonable, what's not, what's a hard request, what's not, and to be able to talk through that. I think you get into trouble when it gets too much on the business-oriented side of things.
Wes Louis:
Definitely. We worked on a Gorillaz music video with Jamie Hewlett. The turnaround for that, I think it was something ridiculous, six or eight weeks, and we did it because, I mean, it's the Gorillaz….
Mack Garrison:
This is the Humility piece, right?
Wes Louis:
Yeah.
Mack Garrison:
That you did that in 6 weeks. That's ridiculous.
Wes Louis:
Yeah, it was crazy. It was like a six-week turnaround to get everything done. Max and Tim were directing it. Tim's a massive Jamie Hewlett fan, so that's like a dream come true project just landing on his plate. We took the job, but I think everybody, including the directors, worked so hard on it. They were working late, working until 10 o'clock at night and all that kinds. We really understood what our staff was going through and I think they appreciated that we acknowledged that we were pushing them to the limit, but then we also said, "We're never doing that again," because you're breaking the people that are working for you. So while The project gave the studio a lot of street cred, it also made us really examine our working practices because the people who work for us are important. I mean animation is hard enough as it is without you having to come home after hours every night and you're not spending time with your friends and family. So you want to try and find a balance. I mean, sometimes it happens where a crunch happens and you have to stay a bit later, but I think nine times out of 10 it's definitely more of an exception than a rule. Whereas I know some companies are like, "No, you've got to work on the weekend and you've got to work on this, you've got to work that." We try not to do that.
Mack Garrison:
A hundred percent. We feel the same way. And I think part of it was also that self-reflection after the pandemic where priorities just totally switched for people. It's like, "Look, this is just a job." We like it, I love animation, but there's stuff outside of it. We all have stuff outside of it, right?
Mack Garrison:
I want to get back into some of the stuff you guys are doing at Line, because like I said, it's phenomenal. But maybe take me back to the beginning.
Wes Louis:
Yeah, so my family's Caribbean, St. Lucian. My parents were born over there. But I was born and raised here in London. As a child I was always into animation, just generally, Saturday morning cartoons, anime shows. I'd always been drawn well. I've been drawing since I was five-years-old... and never really put it down. So it was something that I think people thought it would just be a hobby that went away, and it never did. I was doing anything that could probably lead me into comics or animation, any excuse to draw. Graphic design was the closest thing I could find to do that. And even on graphic design projects, I was always trying to do some sort of character design or animation orientated thing. But yeah, I studied multimedia for a bit and I dropped out of that because I just wasn't happy doing the course, so I spent a few years working in retail and doing office work and all this stuff. And I think it was like 27, that I just asked myself the question, "If money and logistics weren't a factor, what would I be doing?" And animation just kept coming back, so I kind of worked my way backwards and just started saving for it and doing odd jobs so I can save money, so I could take a year or two off just so I can do a course in animation.
Mack Garrison:
So you did graphic design, you kind of dropped out of the multimedia side because you weren't vibing with it as much. You wanted to get more into the traditional, kind of cel animation. Is that what was drawing your interest mainly?
Wes Louis:
Yeah that's what it is. Even when I was doing retail, I remember I was working in a store called Hamleys, it's like a toy store, a big toy store in London on Regent Street. And I remember they would ask me to do graphic design things every now and then, but I was working behind the tills. And I remember applying for a job in the display department, where they would decorate displays and all that kind of stuff. And I thought, "Yeah, this would be perfect." And it's funny, the head of display, showed him my CV, showed my work. He is like, "Yeah, you're amazing," all this kind stuff. He's like, "But I'm not going to give you a job." I was like, "Why?" "Because you're too good for here." I was like, "Why?. He is like, "If you want to go and work in this, then get off your ass and go and find somewhere to work, but I'm not giving you a job here." And he refused to give me a job.
Mack Garrison:
Wow.
Wes Louis:
Yeah. There was also a point where I tried to go full-time in Hamleys, because I was working three or four days a week, and my manager at the time refused to give me a job. She refused to let me work full-time. I was like, "What's going on?" She goes, "Oh, I see you..." Because I would do a lot of doodles on till receipt paper while I'm waiting for customers. I've still got loads of them at home. She was like, "I always see you drawing on these receipts and you're just sitting here." And she goes, "Why aren't you going out and looking for real work in what you love?" I didn't really have a proper answer for her, because I was quite young at the time. But she's like, "Look, I'm not giving you a job here." She goes, "If you want to work a few days a week, that's fine, I can't stop you but don't try and apply for any other department, because if you try and apply, I'm going to tell them not to hire you."
Mack Garrison:
No way.
Wes Louis:
They just literally would not let me work full time there.
Mack Garrison:
That's so crazy. It's that early confidence push and kind of validation that what you're doing, what you're creating means something.
Wes Louis:
I think that's what it was. I actually did reach out to her (Her name is Julia) just to tell her thank you for doing that, pushing me. So I think from then I just went into work with more of a focus. I made a decision to become an animator and spent time working and saving up for a Postgraduate animation course at Central Saint Martins in London. It's funny, because when I went to visit the college they'd had the end of year show, and for some reason, that year it was incredible. So I worked so hard to get on that course, man, believing I wasn't good enough to get on the course. I was doing life drawing classes every weekend. I think I was doing it twice a week. And I went on to an art exchange program in Prague with conceptart.org, hosted by a company called Massive Black.
Mack Garrison:
Well it had to be good validation for you on this career path too, because I know when you find something you're really into, you get into this flow state where it's not work anymore. It's all this stuff that you're trying to get better at and it's hard, but it's fun. You're excited, you want to jump in and just learn as much as you can. It's a totally different vibe versus if you're in something you're not digging.
Wes Louis:
Oh, I think that's 100% true. And I could even point to projects I've done where I know the flow state versus not being in a flow state, for sure.
I did a lot of work to get on the course. I even visited the university a couple of times to speak to the head lecturer just to talk. "Ah," he goes, "you again." So I would go up there, spend about 20 minutes with him, keep in mind I lived an hour away from the university at the time. I'm showing him my sketchbook just asking questions “is this good? Do I need to draw more of this?” It really was an excuse to be in that environment with lightboxes and students flippings animation paper. It was the closest thing to an animation studio I'd ever been in and I loved it. By the time I had my interview he was just like, "All right, well let's see how we can get rid of you then." But he was joking, very British humor. He said, "Your portfolio is incredible. What took you so long," sort of thing. So he was like, "Of course we want you on the course.
Mack Garrison:
Right.
Wes Louis:
I had worked so hard to get on the course, because I just thought I wasn't good enough so I didn't take it for granted. I studied for a year. That's where I met Tim McCourt, who was on the same course as me. After the course finished, I spent about six months trying to finish my thesis film, which I didn't.
Mack Garrison:
That's great.
Wes Louis:
I really tried to finish. I thought there was something wrong with me because it was like, "Why can't I finish this?" And I was trying to get a certain amount of quality in a certain amount of time, but I just couldn't do it. Just not realizing that, actually animation takes time and it takes a team. And I'm trying to do this, Disney level stuff by myself.
Mack Garrison:
That's a lot. That's a lot to put on your plate. So you never finished the thesis?
Wes Louis:
No, I didn't finish but I really tried. I worked on it for a few months after the course but it was so much harder trying to do it from home. About 6 months after uni,I moved to Scotland. I was working at a company called Ink Digital on this film called Illusionist, as an inbetweener cleanup artist. I even tried to finish my thesis film there, redesigned the characters and everything. Even at that point, I wasn't very confident in animation. I just couldn't understand how to do it. I remember meeting with an animator at Django Films (that was the main studio for the Illusionist where all the animation took place) She gracefully took time out to show me around and show me her work and process. Within half an hour she said and My understanding of animation completely changed. If you asked me to do my thesis film today, be it two months or three months I’d finish it. I’d know what to animate, what to cheat etc.
Mack Garrison:
What did she say to you?
Wes Louis:
I said, "So what's your breakdown?" She goes, "I don't really think about it that way, I just do the motion. And then I find a breakdown afterwards." She showed me her sketches and demonstrated her method. It just made sense. It was Aya Suzuki, actually. She's gone on to work with directors like Hayo Myazakiand she's an incredible animator. It was just a half an hour chat and it was like things clicked all of a sudden where the things that I was struggling to do weren't hard anymore, because now I understood what it was. And it was just basically her process of how she put an idea down and got the movement down. I think my problem was getting too in the weeds of it, I was trying to understand what's a breakdown, what's a key. I think those things matter when you're passing off the animation to somebody else, but when you're doing it yourself, it doesn't matter that much, you know? There might be some people that disagree with me, but that was just for me, it just made sense the way she went about it.
Mack Garrison:
Tell me about some of the projects that came after that?
Wes Louis:
So when I got back from Scotland, I met up with Tim again and we worked on our first short film together. We spent about a year doing that at a Partizan. We were very fortunate to have a space to work for free as Tim had a good relationship with one of the producers at the time. We thought it would take us three months, it took us about a year. And we got an award from the Westminster Arts Council. So they were giving out money for people to make films and stuff... so I think they gave us 4,000 pounds, which seemed like a lot at the time.
Mack Garrison:
Yeah, of course.
Wes Louis:
I mean, me and Tim weren't getting paid for it, we were doing freelance work for Partizan so we could keep on going. We learnt a lot doing that. After that I guess the project that made me more well known was Super Turbo Atomic Ninja Rabbit, I just went full steam ahead. It was a style of animation I'd never approached before. I've never done anything like it which is ironic because my love of animation really is rooted in action and anime. There was no reason for me to think I could do it except that I just wanted to so I just went ahead and tried. Also got a friend Rina May to do the music and BXFTYS on sound fx. Actually let me backup, I'm jumping around a bit. After me and Tim made our film, we went around looking for work as directors. Turns out it doesn't really work in that way. You don't just go and apply to be a director.
Mack Garrison:
Yeah, right. Like, "I'd like to work here please." And it's like, "No, thank you."
Wes Louis:
Yeah, yeah. "I'd like to work as a director." It's like, "Not really, no."
Mack Garrison:
That's great.
Wes Louis:
I did show my portfolio though and a few weeks later it was like, "Oh, yeah, we like your work we have some jobs on if you're interested. That was at Nexus in London." And I was working there freelance for about a year and Tim was doing freelance at Partizan and some other places. While Tim was on the job, he met with Sam Taylor, James Duveen and Bjorn Erik Aschim, the other partners at The Line. Sam was looking for a studio space at the time and was asking if we were interested in sharing a space, and not even as a company but just people who animate together and have a shared space while working different freelance jobs. I couldn’t really afford it at the time but we had a friend Fritzi who had a desk and she was letting me use it at the time and eventually I took over from her. While at the studio Tim got approached by some of the runners who were at Partizan who now have their own company, Bullion Productions. They got a job from the Ministry of Sound to do a music video for Mat Zo and Porter Robinson and asked if Tim and I were up for directing because they knew we made our short film at Partizan. So it was like, "Yeah, sure." And then the other guys we were sharing a space with, they were just finishing up their film Everything I can See From Here, so we were like, "Oh, if you guys aren't doing anything, we'd like to hire you to work on our project." So the six of us worked on this project together and it went so well. It was an incredible experience. We just said, "Oh, how about we start a collective, we can just consolidate our work and take it further?" That's basically when we formed The Line.
Mack Garrison:
It's perfect.
Wes Louis:
Soon after Bjorn got contacted by Electric Theatre Collective (ETC) to do some concept art and they were asking, "Do you know any animators or character designers?" He's like, "Oh, I actually know five guys."
So we went over there and we were working together for a while. They gave us some funding to make our first official The Line original projects. Amaro and Walden's Joyride and Super Turbo Atomic Ninja Rabbit. Ideas we had for a couple years. We were working on those productions simultaneously and released them a month apart, maybe two. I think that these projects gave us our notoriety. From then we just started getting commercial projects. We were at ETC for about 3 years I think but eventually ended up leaving to actually start our own studio. No hard feelings or anything, it just became harder to function the way we wanted to as directors. We thought, "Let's see if we can start our own company." I mean the options then were, to either leave and try and make some more money to build ourselves back up, and then hopefully regroup again, which probably wouldn't have happened. Or let's just go for it and start a company. So we pooled some money together, got a studio space and our first job came within 2 months and….
Mack Garrison:
The rest is history.
Wes Louis:
... five years later we've got, I think about we have roughly 40 people with us including the 6 founders.
Mack Garrison:
Man, that's crazy.
Wes Louis:
James counted about, over three or four projects, we had about 110 people working with us at one time.
Mack Garrison:
Wow. That's crazy.
Wes Louis:
Yeah, it is a bit surreal, because you're looking around and you're like- "I don't exactly know how this works but it is working, and it's great."
Mack Garrison:
Oh, no, it's really cool. So a couple of things I picked up on there, Wesley that I think is really interesting and I want to poke at a bit is, so you get out of school, you end up on this Illusionist project, you're kind of navigating the process a bit, but then it kind of starts to click. You and Tim, then after the Illusionist, work on your personal project, right. What film was that that you guys were doing?
Wes Louis:
Drawing Inspiration.
Mack Garrison:
Drawing Inspiration, that's right. So you're doing these films or this entertainment side of things and then you end up from that side into kind of the commercial space a bit from there. But I like how when you even refer to the projects you're working on, you're referring to them as films. Everything you do has this artistic lens. And I do think there's this balance in animation with art versus design, right?
Wes Louis:
Yeah.
Mack Garrison:
How did you navigate that as you got into that world and all of a sudden these projects, which I'm sure you had thoughts on, on how you want it to be, is now getting pushback from clients who are paying you for it and they want it done a certain way and you're like, "That's killing the artistic style of it." How does the artist versus designer kind of come into play for you these days?
Wes Louis:
That's a really interesting question. I mean even the short films that we made, people ask, "How do you make the time to make those films and do what you want? It's insane." And the answer is, it is insane. It sounds very cliche, but we were too stupid to know that you're not supposed to do these kinds of things. We made two short films in a year simultaneously, while trying to do freelance projects. And that's crazy, because I was working, I mean we were working weekends, evenings and stuff, and it's not an easy thing to do. But like you said, if you love what you're doing, you don't really perceive it as work, you just perceive it as this thing that you need to get done.
In terms of the commercial side, I think earlier on I would say we did get projects that you'd get weird client pushback. I remember doing a project and I literally had the clients standing behind me while I was doing a drawing.
Mack Garrison:
No! I would've quit. I would've been out.
Wes Louis:
Oh god, it was like the Apprentice. There were about three or four of them and I was drawing a face. "Oh, do this in the lips. Move it, move it. No, push it up, push it down. Make her eyes bigger. Make it smaller." And the drawing, at the end of it, I just remember sitting there thinking, "This is not going in my portfolio, this is the worst piece of work I've ever done.”
And luckily, I mean they kind of doubled back and they were like, "Oh, actually, this is not working." And then I had to redesign it from scratch and they just kind of left us to it. But actually, generally speaking, I feel like our clients have been really good. And I think that's because of the short films that we've made. And I think the thing that we realize is, if we make the things that we want to make and make it high quality, people hopefully will come to us for what we do rather than what someone else does. And I think that brings about a certain amount of trust from our client as well. So if we show them something that we've done that they're interested in. So anytime we get a pitch in, well a lot of the times they will point to other people's work, but it will always have our work in there. "Oh, when you did this on this project, this was great. We'd love more of this and stuff."
Mack Garrison:
It's almost like, concept-wise with references to other things, but stylistically it always comes back to you all. So you know you're in the right lane.
Wes Louis:
Yeah. So actually when we are doing stuff, nine times out of ten, I would say you do get satisfaction from the client work. Obviously it's not going to be 100% your way and I think there's an expectation of that. Look, someone's paying you to do this and you put your best foot forward and say, "Look, I really don't think this is a good idea because," and they do listen and then sometimes it's someone higher than the person you're talking to is like, "No, we definitely want this." "Oh, okay, that's fine." I always take our client projects as a space to learn as well.
Mack Garrison:
Sure, sure.
Wes Louis:
I'm getting paid to learn how to do something a little bit differently and apply it to my own work and to the studio as well. I mean the whole reason we started it is so that we can make our own stuff. We actually put some of our profits back into personal and development projects. We’ve actually got a few in development at the moment and one hopefully dropping late-summer.
Mack Garrison:
Perfect. That will be a perfect time to roll it in for the summer and share it on the big screen here in Raleigh.
Wes Louis:
Yeah, exactly. It's a short. Our films are quite short so typically they’re made in the style of a trailer or a music video, because to try and do anything longer can be quite difficult if you want something really long form. Doing shorts like this gives us a chance to kind of put stuff out there, our own identity and have people in the studio play around on things that they probably wouldn't normally get to do at other studios. We've actually got another director, who is the first director doing a personal project outside of the six of us.
Mack Garrison:
How does that feel? Because I do think there's something about as you progress as a studio or owner, you can't have your hand in everything. You can't always see stuff. Does it feel weird to get to this space where there's a director kind of rolling with something and you're not really sure what's going on?
Wes Louis:
It's weird. I think even just not being hands-on is a little bit frustrating for me. I got into it so I can draw and animate and I'm not drawing and animating anymore. And even people have said to me, "Oh, I don't really see your work anymore." It really is rewarding though, to see an animator go from a junior assist role to directing a project on her own project; leading a team of people, having her own voice and having the respect of all her peers supporting her, I think is amazing. I think none of us are under the illusion that we're always going to be relevant and it's nice to be able to build a space with the resources we have that can trickle down to the next generation. And they create stuff, and they do better than we ever could.
Mack Garrison:
I think, well because you look back and you look at the stuff that you've gone through and you learn about things that you really liked and the people that pushed you. Even your retail boss, don't do this, or your colleague who's like, "Think about it this way," and there's all these moments with these spaces where that's conducive. And so I think as leaders, you try to create that space at your studio. What are the things that you really wanted? What are the things that you can create an area for someone to try stuff to fail and stuff to grow and to learn? And so that's got to be a huge highlight at The Line.
Wes Louis:
Yeah, it is something that I think we speak about we're proud of. I mean, we don't always get everything right, we're still learning.
Mack Garrison:
Sure.
Wes Louis:
But I think more often than not from what people have said, unless they're lying to us, they're comfortable working or they like it, they feel supported, they feel like they've been heard and they get to put their ideas across. We've got this initiative that our development manager has put forward. So basically, we give 10 days to each person on the staff every year to just go in and play. The caveat is that it has to benefit the company in some sort of way. So it could be they go in, find a new system for production or just learn how to draw something a little bit better. Anything they want. It doesn't have to be something they present, it's just 10 days for people to go and play, because sometimes you wait for downtime to happen and sometimes there is no downtime. So it's like, all right, here's 10 days. And actually, some of the projects that we're working on now came from that. In fact, there's about three projects that have come from our exploration time where people have gone away, had 10 days to think about something that they weren't thinking about before, and then they've come back and said, "Oh, actually, I've got a great idea." It's like, "All right, let's make that, let's put some money into that so you get to have a bit of a creative outlet.
Mack Garrison:
That's cool. I love that. And I love the buy-in from folks too, because it makes people feel like they're bought into the studio. They're bringing their ideas to the table and the studio's rallying around them, which is really nice too.
Wes Louis:
I think that the thing with us is that we're like, "Oh, it would be so cool if we had this when we were coming up." We're like, "All right, well let's just do it for our staff." And it seems to be working.
Mack Garrison:
Do y'all feel good where you are now or do you want to continue to expand? Do you have any big, broader goals for the company?
Wes Louis:
It's funny you say that, because we literally are in a kind of space where we're trying to reestablish and just remember where we came from and use that to inform where we're going. So I'm from the Caribbean, as I said before, and what I've been doing is I've started this kind of program with a company in Jamaica called ListenMi, they're an animation company. And basically I just give them an hour a week or hour every two weeks of my time just sharing insight into just how animation works and helping them, in a sense, kind of level up. Because I think you've got loads of animators or aspiring animators in the Caribbean who just don't have the resources or people to teach them.
And I know I learn a lot because I've spoken to people around me and I've got access to certain things. And I guess for me personally, I would love The Line to be one of these spaces where, I don't know, it has some sort of academic program, training, and internship. And that's something that I have started trying out. I don't know where it's going to go. I feel like this is something that could take the next 10 years, it could take 20 years or something, I don't know. But I do recognize that, for instance, you've got places like Korea where the American animation was being outsourced to them and now they've just got incredible studios like Studio Mir for example. I think that's how you grow an industry. And I feel like the dream for me would be, reaching out to these places and training them up so that they can start. Eventually, we can outsource work to them and they grow and get better. And then they can start creating their own works, and then it trickles down to the schools and now you've got a thriving industry. So that's the kind of influence I would like the company to have.
Mack Garrison:
I really appreciate what you were saying on the community side. It's hard to give back when everything costs money, but one thing you can always do is time and attention. And just giving your time back to people knowing that when you were their age or that early part of your career, that that's what you really just needed is guidance. I think that's really critical. And I don't know, I know our industry is so community-focused, everyone's so nice and I think a lot of people are interested in that. And so I hope more people are doing the same thing you're talking about.
Wes Louis:
Right. Yeah, my short ‘The Mighty Grand Piton’ was big for me. I think the biggest shame for me would be if no one from the Caribbean works on it. I mean, voice actors and musicians, all that kind of stuff is not a problem over there, right, but animation is an area where there isn't really a market
Wes Louis:
It would be great to have everyone at a level where we can outsource work, but i've learned making a series isn't straightforward
Mack Garrison:
Right.
Wes Louis:
I think if you can have people out there on our types of productions I think it would be super beneficial. I think the same thing happened with Flying Bark, with Rise Of Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles series. Having that type of project forced them to level up. That show is incredible. Now they’re so good now they can do that stuff by themselves. You know what I mean?
Mack Garrison:
Yeah.
Wes Louis:
So yeah, that kind of actually triggered the idea. So I think me doing it, isn’t about money or anything like that, it's like you said it's about time. It's one thing you talk about and talk about, but then I'm like, "You know what, let's dedicate time to it and make sure it's done. And then let's see what happens at the end of the year." And if at the end of the year where they feel like we've contributed something to them and they've used our resources, and they're able to talk to not just me, but some of the other partners and get some insights on how things are done, And if their work levels up, then I know it's working and I know that we're doing the right thing.
Mack Garrison:
I love it. Well you'll have to give us an update when you come to Raleigh on where some of that stuff is in the process. This was a really great convo. Thanks for hanging out with me for a bit.
Wes Louis:
Nice one, man. Nice to meet you and thanks for taking the time to talk to me as well.
Meet the speakers: Aaron Ray
An interview with Aaron Ray: an animation director and designer with an inclination towards illustrative design and character based work.
Q&A hosted by Mack Garrison & Meryn Hayes.
Read time: 15min
Mack :
Hey Aaron, for folks who don't know who you are, a little bit about you and your background and what brought you into motion design as an industry.
Aaron:
So currently I split my time between doing freelance with studios, whether that's art direction, creative direction, or just doing style frames and stuff like that. But I also have a rep for commercial and music video direction, so I'm kind of bouncing back and forth between those things. How I started was early on when I was into skateboarding growing up, just seeing all the graphics and stuff. And this was late '80s and '90s, but specifically the late '80s stuff when I was a little kid, when I first started skateboarding, the graphics were so bold, colorful, gruesome, funny, detailed and illustrative. I had never really seen anything like that.
So I was like, "This is really interesting and I think this might mean I could draw for a living," that kind of thing. I just drew all the time. And then also going back to skateboarding more when I got a little older in high school and college, we were just filming everywhere we went when we were skateboarding. So I got kind of used to using cameras and the idea of editing a video and then probably somewhere out of there, I started to see title design and stuff like that.
I went to college here in Denver and I went to the Art Institute, which is now defunct, and I initially thought I wanted to make live-action movies. But all I had were drawings and my bad skateboard graphics and things like that at the time. I met with an admission person and she said, “maybe you should go into our new computer animation program.” And I said, "Oh, that's cool. That sounds kind of cool." And this was like '98, so this was early, Toy Story had just come out, Pixar stuff was just getting a name and becoming kind of popular, and so the program was really rooted in visual effects for film and 3D character animation.
And so I went into that program and I was pretty unhappy with it because it was very computer based and I kind of learned throughout my time there that I really like more hands-on tactile feeling work. And I liked more design focused work.
It’s Aaron!
Mack:
Well, it's interesting to me. It's like, all right, so you're a kid, you're growing up in the '90s, late '80s, you're loving skateboarding, so it brings you in from the design side of it. And then I'm just presuming here that you started making little random fun skating videos that ultimately brought you into film. Is that right?
Aaron:
Yeah, I bought a camera, a mini DV camera or eight millimeter, and we would just go around filming and editing. I didn't have Final Cut or anything like that at the time. So it was like in-camera editing or eventually we got two tape decks, and I don't know if you've ever done that, but you can run the camera into one tape deck and you're sort of transferring it to another tape deck and a VHS. So you're doing the editing to a tape from tape deck to tape deck.
Frame from the music video Aaron directred for ’Hands/Heart’ by The Raven And The Writing Desk.
Mack:
That's so funny. Are you putting on the classic dad fade where you fade in and fade out at the end in-camera?
Aaron:
Always. Every time.
Mack:
So I imagine the skating stuff, I mean, it's funny how many people I feel like I've talked to that have gotten into this space through skating because really it was kind of pioneers for recording yourself and recording your tricks. And so it got you into that. That always feels very tactile to me. I mean, skating is just rough in and of itself. And the designs on the boards and the decks themselves are really graphic. And so when you get into, it was the Art Institute that you were in Denver, right. And so you get to the VFX, the 3D character animation spawned after Toy Story coming out, which makes a lot of sense because there's this new push and admiration for 3D. But it sounds like you weren't digging it, you weren't really wild about it, but you just kind of pushed through it and felt like, "Well, I just got to get a degree and get out of here."
Aaron:
Yeah, I mean, I got a lot from school though. I learned the tools, I learned After Effects. At the time we were using 3D Studio Max, so I got a good sense of using the tools and understanding 3D. I kind of forgot to mention, growing up, I was really into music, punk music and just independent music in general. And so even before college I was skateboarding and music was a huge part of my life. And when I was in college, it was kind of pre-motion design too. So there wasn't a lot of that. And I think what I was missing is I really loved record covers. I really loved skateboard graphics, I liked filming stuff, but I hadn't really been introduced to motion design yet. And so, I don't know, I think I burnt out and just couldn’t get excited about what I was seeing in school.
In retrospect, I can look back at it now. And the 3D character stuff we see now, I'm like, "Wow, that's so cool." I wish we'd been kind of pushed in that direction versus just the movie VFX and CG stuff.
But music and playing in bands was really a big thing at that point for me. So I wanted to be a designer in the music industry. I wanted to do album covers and stuff like that. So I got this position as a designer for a small record label, for literally no money. I worked there for about three years. But it was a great experience and worth it in the long run, it actually had a big impact on me.
But streaming music started to slowly take over, and you kind of see the writing on the wall that I wasn't going to be able to continue just doing album covers. And I think it was probably around this time that I first saw, you guys remember a studio called Shilo?
Mack:
Out in San Diego or something, right?
Aaron:
They were California and New York City. But they were amazing. I think that's the first time I saw work that I would've considered motion design. There was one piece they did in particular, It was this kind of white cityscape thing. No materials, just white and what do you call it, Ambient Occlusion And the camera's just moving through and it's got this really experimental edit. And there was just this cool hiphop kind of beat that everything was cut to, and there was typography integrated and there were hand drawn doodles popping out everywhere. I was like, "Wow, this is cool." And it was 3D and 2D kind of mixed.
Mack:
That's so neat. I do remember Shilo. In fact, they were an inspiration for me when I was in school. I was like, "Oh man, this place looks amazing. I want to go work here." It does feel like it's a good segway though, from album art into it, right? Because album art seems equally as weird, off the walls, could be a mixed media of a lot of different things.
I'm curious about your take on this, because you worked at that job where you said three years, the first one that they weren't paying you initially and then they're paying you a little bit. And there's a big conversation around the industry even today, right? It's like, "Don't take unpaid internships, don't do work for less than what it costs."
And then at the same time, I hear you say about how much of a big impact that made on you. I mean, I think about some of the work that Dash has done over the years that has opened the doors to other projects. And some of those projects weren't the highest paying gigs, but we said yes to it because they seemed cool. I don't know, just any thoughts on that idea in the space on balancing stuff that you're into versus saying yes to some things?
Frame of Aaron’s work with New Belgium.
Aaron:
I think if there's a benefit to doing something for no money or low money, then I think it's worth it. But I think each person has to weigh those options. For me, I just knew working in music design is what I want to do and this is my foot in the door, so I'm going to do it and I'm going to work hard to do it.
I guess the point is I will do stuff for lower cost if there's a creative benefit or if it will help me learn something new etc.
I’ve had projects before where I’ve thought "I can't believe I'm doing this for this much for the budget, but I think I'm just going to, I'm trying to ignore that and just keep pushing through it because I think the end product's going to be cool." But again I think you have to weigh the pros and cons of each situation because just because you have a cool end product, that doesn't always mean more work or anything though right?
Mack:
I think you made a really good point, Aaron, that you have to judge it against what you're interested in, what you want to do. And something for someone might be too low, but for others it might be the right fit, because I've heard a little adage as well, it's like don't ever undercharge. But we get projects sometimes that look really cool. We want to say yes to it, but they have a third of the budget that we would normally take on. But if it looks cool, it's like, let's do it and let's make it happen. I think it's also a big difference though, in what you're out there to try to do. And I think one of the reasons I love the motion design industry so much is it's really full of passionate creatives.
I think at the end of the day, there is still this desire to make cool badass work. And not all the time some of these groups out there need a helping hand. And if you can do it creatively, I think that's great. So I think ultimately it just kind of depends on everybody kind of where they are in their life, what they want to do.
So, sorry, I didn't mean to hijack the story there for a bit, but it was really interesting. So you leave the record design stuff, you kind of see the writing on the wall, that might not be a long term endeavor, and you had just discovered (Shilo) and this amazing work they were doing the kind of mixed media stuff. And so at that point, you really didn't know too much about motion graphics or motion design itself as a field, correct?
Aaron:
Yeah, not a lot. I mean, maybe motion graphics was a term at that point, but I don't think I was too familiar with it. I guess around that time I was approached by somebody who knew this company that was looking for an art director. And so I interviewed there and I moved from the record label and I got a job at this other place and they were a parent company for a bunch of skateboard and youth lifestyle kind of brands within it. And so I was an art director there where I did snowboard graphics and apparel graphics. I did packaging for footwear and box design and stuff.
And that was also a really cool stepping stone I think for me, because again, I'm learning more about the print design stuff still, but it started to get bigger than just doing record packaging. I went to China to do press checks on snowboard graphics, I art directed national Ad campaigns. So I just learned I think my whole experience from college up through this job was just learning different things and they're all really interesting and fun. And maybe, I don't think I was thinking too much about the future really at this point. I was just kind of going along for the ride and everything was interesting. I was learning new stuff every day. But during this job we started creating more video content and stuff. And then I started getting back into using AfterEffects and then motion design. This is actually the period when I first noticed Shilo, but then a bunch of other motion design studios were kind of popping up.
So yeah, I started doing more After Effects stuff and kind of got back into it. And then during that time is when I, actually taking a step back, at the record label is where met one of the partners of my future company Legwork. Actually two of my partners. But I went to this other job and they went their own way and we kind of parted careers for a bit, but it was during this new job when we started talking again, and then we started talking about maybe starting a company.
Mack:
Oh, nice. Were you guys doing moonlighting on side projects together or was it always like, "We'd like to do that," and maybe this company Legwork, what it ended up becoming is how you could do that?
Aaron:
We probably spent six months to a year just planning it out, designing our logos and crafting our “brand”. We all kept our jobs while we planned it. We designed the initial Legwork logo and then we built our first website. We quit our jobs before we launched the website, And I don't know if we were doing any big projects at the time, I think we went cold turkey and quit our jobs and went right into Legwork. And for me it wasn't that big of a deal because I still wasn't making that much money, But my two partners left better paying jobs to start Legwork, so they had more at stake.
Mack:
You're like, "I'm already broke. Why not just keep doing this?"
Aaron:
I wasn't worried at all. So yeah, I kind of feel bad about that for them!
Frame for Aaron’s “Kiss my airs” campaign for Nike Toronto’s Air Max Day to celebrate 30 Years of Air Max .
Meryn:
Do you feel like y'all had a certain dynamic? To start a business with someone that takes a lot on both sides. Do you feel there was, I mean obviously y'all thought about it because there was six months leading up to it. Was there a lot of thought in terms of what Legwork would become in those early days? Or was it just like, "Let's jump and we'll see where we land?"
Aaron:
Yeah, that's a good question. I think I was idealistic about what it would become or what we wanted it to be. And I learned later, maybe nine years later, that if I was to start a business again, there are definitely things that maybe should have been different. But yeah I think the three of us had a good dynamic. One of the partners I was pretty good friends with because I worked with him probably for a year or so at the record label, and we all kind of ran in the same circles and had a lot of the same friends. The other one I also met at the record label, but he was just a freelance website designer that would do stuff for the record label so I didn't know him as well. But all of us came from the local music scene. And so we weren't the best of friends, but I think we were good enough friends and trusted each other enough to be comfortable with it.
But again, I think we were not thinking that far ahead. I didn't think, "Oh, what happens if you get in a fight with one of your business partners or something bad happens?" In my mind I was just thinking It was going to be a small studio where we had cool screen printed posters on the wall. I was just thinking more about what it was, where I was going to be sitting during the day. Being inspired by all my design books around me and stuff. I didn't really think about the business that much. I just thought we were going to create cool work all the time.
Mack:
Oh my gosh, that's so funny. I did the exact same thing, Aaron, when Cory and I started Dash, it was like, "Oh man, it'll be so rad. We can just hang out all day. We can make cool stuff."
We didn't talk about the fact that we'd be nitpicking each other's emails on how we write to clients. I mean, it’s just dumb shit like that the first year of any studio as you're working through the business stuff has got to be honestly some of the toughest.
Aaron:
Yeah. Was it just you two at first for a while?
Mack:
It was, we just had the two of us, so there was no third party to make a decision, although I guess Meryn kind of came in and is kind of making some decisions for us now, which has helped. Thank you, Meryn :)
Aaron:
Yeah. Well, so the three partners' situation was what it was and it was pretty good. And I think the three of us actually made sense because I was kind of coming from video and animation and illustration and also print design. But then the other partner was a website designer, and so he knew the website design and development world. And then the other partner had a business degree and he was like at the record label, he kind of managed the books and planned tours that kind of stuff. So he just kind of had more of the business mind. So we're like "Oh, this makes sense." But the crazy thing is one year into that structure, I think it was 2009, we brought on three additional partners.
Mack:
What was the impetus for that? Just cool people that you wanted to bring on?
Aaron:
We needed to fill out what we were doing with additional skill sets. One of our friends was a really good developer, so we brought him on and then we didn't really have a sales person, so we brought on this other guy to run sales. And then we needed another developer at the time that did a different type of development. So we had a front end developer and a back end developer.
“If This Then Domino’s” is a website that uses IFTTT technology that allows customers to automatically order Domino’s pizza every time a particular situation occurs.
Mack Garrison: Interesting. So the early days, you guys, what's really interesting to me is that even though it was kind of like you didn't have a long term plan, you did have a lot of really talented people and even as a small entity, you kind of had these different divisions of the company where kind of people were responsible for. And so how would it go? Did you guys develop processes to work together? Would each person go do their thing and bring information back to the table? Sales guy's like, "All right, I got us a project. Who wants to handle it?"
Aaron: When I think back on it, I was the only one who wasn't really from the website world. And so I think in a lot of ways I was just sitting there kind of doing my own thing and if something came up where we needed to do an animation or an illustration, that would be what I would do. I also was handling a lot of the company branding stuff, so I was just working on the visual side of the company and logos and that kind of stuff. But yes that’s essentially how it worked, but really the 6 of us each made up one part of what a full team on a project would be - so in those days we all kind of worked together on each project rather than one person doing a project and another person on a different project.
Mack:
Interesting. So the early days, everyone has their job, their niche, they bring their experience they have to the table. Were a lot of your clients in the books initially? Was it more kind of in the music space or that same kind of stuff that you had talked about? You were in the kind of album artwork, there was skate stuff, the sort of punk side of things. Was that still a lot of the work y'all were doing in the early days?
Aaron:
Yeah, kind of. So I left my job, the place was called Collective, but I left that job on really good terms. So I gave them two months' notice. I said, "I'm quitting, I'm going to start my own company." And they were super cool and supportive and they gave us work. They had stuff to do that they couldn't really do internally anyway, so they just gave that to us.
One of the brands was this old, I’m sure you've heard of Airwalk. They used to be a legit skateboard brand in the '80s and early ‘90s, but then they turned into kind of an “affordable” mainstream brand, So they brought us on for the brand relaunch website which was a really progressive website at the time. That was one thing about Legwork and Matt Wiggins, who was our developer/partner, he's like this genius developer. Okay, sorry, side note: I'm jumping back again here because this is right when the first iPhone came out…
And the iPhone killed Flash. So Matt, and all these guys came from the Flash development world and the iPhone basically didn't allow Flash, so it kind of killed, developers had to switch gears and start using HTML 5.
And so Matt was such a genius developer that he started figuring out how to do HTML 5 websites that felt like Flash. So we did the first Airwalk projects. And it was just really cool and experimental, we were winning awards for it, and then we also won an award for our own website.
I don't think awards really matter so much anymore, but maybe they do more so in the web world. I'm not even sure these days, but back then, winning those awards, we won at SXSW for our website and then the Airwalk site won maybe a Webby or FWA I think. And that actually got us quick name recognition in that world. So we're definitely known as a web company initially and I struggled a bit because I was from the animation and design side. And it took us a long time, I think to even be known as doing animation. That was kind of an interesting journey for me personally.
Mack:
Well, I can imagine, because as anyone knows who's run the studio, there's ebbs and flows on different types of work. So you know, you may find that you're a particular type of designer, you're getting a lot of type of work coming in, but then there's a pivot and then you're kind of like, "All right, how can I help?" And you're in this kind of space to give me more work, why everyone else is overloaded. And that's going to be a hard thing to kind of navigate. So when you guys, you won, so really the growth came from winning some of these awards, getting the recognition with them, landing some other jobs and then landing those bigger jobs got you more recognition and it kind of became more of a snowball effect on how stuff came in. Is that more or less how the growth happened?
Aaron:
Yeah, I think winning the SXSW award for our own website, I think within a year we had a rep for the studio, like an LA based rep. And so they immediately introduced us to bigger agencies. And then we started doing a lot of work just with bigger agencies, almost right off the bat.
Mack:
That's really fun. Well, especially, I know there's a lot of folks out there who talk about whether they want to be repped or is that a good thing or a bad thing. It sounds like for you all, that was a real big key in moving forward and taking on some bigger projects was the award and then getting representation. Do you think that's accurate?
Aaron:
Yeah, for sure. I think times are, I know it wasn't that long ago, but I think times were different in the industry then too though.
I think the industry was less saturated with small and mid-size companies back then too. So I think we were a bit of an anomaly because we did interactive and animation. So that was definitely unique for the time. I even think now it's a little unique and I feel like if I do ever start another studio, I would probably do that again.
Mack:
I think being, at least from my perspective, is a little bit shifted cause we are a general studio. And so I like the idea, I mean, we're still in the lens of just animation or live action, but we still, we're not just 2D, we do 3D, we do a bunch of things.
I think variety is important, honestly, I think what keeps animators on their toes, you talk about your partners having to learn like HTML 5, kind of pivoting completely and then it discovers a new way of doing things. I think that's how studios evolve and last is you have to mix it up a little bit
Aaron:
Yeah, I think you're totally right. Having those two different disciplines when we were slow and on one side we could make up for it on the other side of the company. But in terms of the motion stuff, it was a gradual growth. And we got bigger and bigger projects on that side. And then I think by the end, it's interesting, I talked to a lot of people, some people knew us only as an animation studio then.
Mack:
Huh. Interesting. So, I don't want to spoil anything from your talk that could be coming up.
Aaron:
I think I've already spoiled half of it.
Mack:
Well good. Well, this will just be an accent then to what's coming up. So Legwork continues to grow. You guys talked about the beginning that you really didn't have any kind of a long term plan. It was just like, "Oh, we'll do this. This is good. Oh we'll do six partners, this seems good," right? And you grow a little bit. Did people kind of come in and out for a bit at Legwork? Did some of those partners stay? Was it kind of fluid where folks were coming in and out of the studio for a bit?
Aaron:
In terms of partners, we were pretty much all there until 2016. Having six partners sounds insane to me now, but we did a really good job of working together for that amount of time, which is a pretty long time for six people to stay friends and business partners.
In the beginning we didn't really have any employees. We had a couple interns, maybe a year or two years in, they came on And our first intern became an employee and was with us for 8 or 9 years!
And it's funny, I think one of our selling points early on, and this is no offense to producers because I fully changed how I think about this over the years, but my partners were like, "We don't need producers, we're a small tight-knit team. We're all pretty senior level at this point and we can just do the work. We can talk directly to clients." And I actually think a lot of our clients liked that. And I think that was a bit of a selling point for us for a while. But as we got bigger and bigger, we brought on bigger and bigger projects we brought on producers. And I would never do that again, I value producers so much now. It's insane.
Mack:
Well as soon as you spend 75% of your day writing emails instead of working, you're like, "Wait a minute. What happened here?
Meryn:
And a level of objectiveness that's just like, it's really hard to separate yourself from the art or what you're making and that layer from the client to you, a little bit of protection from yourself.
Aaron:
Definitely. Even now, just working as an independent, I have the producer at my rep company and he does most of the corresponding work. We'll do meetings, creative meetings and stuff like that. But when I do a check-in, I'm like "Here's my deck, here's my stuff for the day" and he’ll send it over. Often when a producer is the middle-person, they're just passing an email over and then getting the feedback. And sometimes that can get muddy if the producer doesn't communicate it correctly. But it's been great Rob the EP. And I actually really like that process because I can stay kind of focused on just doing my work.
Mack:
Well, there's a lot more to talk about here, Aaron, but I think it leaves a lot for what's to come, the presentation. And I know Meryn and I both really enjoyed chatting with you today and getting to know a little bit of background. I'm super excited to be hanging at the Bash this year.
Aaron:
Awesome. Cool. Well, thank you both very much. Looking forward to meeting in person and I’ll talk to you soon.
Meryn:
Awesome. Thanks, Aaron.
Meet the speakers: Sekani Solomon
An interview with Sekani Solomon: an award-winning Creative Director based in New York City
Q&A hosted by Cory Livengood and Ashley Targonski.
Read time: 15min
Cory:
So, you're kind of a unique case in that we were going to have you speak at the Bash two years ago, and it didn't work out in large part due to Covid. I think our readers would really love to know a little bit about your background.
Sekani:
I guess I was always interested in creativity and just arts in general. And so when I was younger, let's say around 10 or so, I was always drawing Dragon Ball Z, or cartoons, or my favorite anime at the time. And then when I was in high school, I was like, could I really perceive this as a career? It seemed like the answer was no. So I actually dropped art. And then around 18, we were rebuilding our school website, and I was like, well, I used Photoshop several years ago, maybe I could help with this. And then I kind of reentered the space, and saw that they had significantly more resources on the internet, how to learn this stuff. And it was suddenly a lot easier.
And so yeah, I just kind of jumped in and went crazy, just doing a lot of photo manipulations. I think back then that was the hype, and then decided to take that on the next level with learning After Effects. My mind was blown, because again, at that point this was a foreign thing that I'd never seen anyone do. It's always something I wanted to do, animate. So that was mind blowing for me. And then that evolved into Cinema 4D. That's when I started incorporating some 3D elements into the work. At that point, it was time to apply for college. And so growing up on a small island [Tobago], if you really wanted to have a promising career, at least in the arts, you have to leave. And I knew that.
So I started off actually not being convinced that I wanted to do art. I didn't think that could be a viable career option. So I applied to schools for a software engineering degree, and then actually switched to graphic design and then motion media after I discovered SCAD. I ended up getting the scholarship from them, because I had a portfolio of work already because I was just kind of obsessed, and doing it in my spare time. Got a scholarship locally from Tobago. And so I ended up going to SCAD, Savannah College of Art and Design in Georgia. And then during my time there, I had four internships before I graduated. I worked with Loyalkaspar, Gentleman Scholar, The Mill, and Imaginary Forces, and decided that Imaginary Forces worked similarly to how I did, where they wear a lot of hats and jump all around the production process. And then in 2018 I worked at Apple, so it was my first time working in house at a tech company, which was a whole new world. It was eye-opening because I hadn’t worked directly for a brand, and so seeing people at least there work less hours, and could value their time more with a higher day rate.
Sekani is an award-winning Creative Director based in New York City
Cory:
One of the things I wanted to ask you about a little bit was what drew you to move over in-house? It sounds like briefly with Apple, but more specifically I guess recently with CashApp and now Block. And what do you see as the pros and the cons of that approach? And clearly you've stuck with it for a while too, so is it something that you like?
Sekani:
Yeah, no, great question. I think seeing Apple was great, but at the time it didn't feel like someplace I would've stayed full-time, just because they're such an established company, and the checks and balances are so rigorous. Not necessarily ideal for me, but back of my mind, I was looking at what Microsoft was doing in the space. And I was like, wow, it's really cool to see a brand like Microsoft adopting this small New Age 3D motion design approach to showcase their work. It would be cool to begin to try to start something like that at another company if the situation provided itself.
And so later on that year at the end of 2018, I got a message on LinkedIn about this company called CashApp, which ironically I wasn't familiar with at the time, and I was at Buck at the time, and their offices weren't too far from each other. So I did a little interview over at the Square office and then walked over to Buck. And the conversation I had with them was just talking about where this brand could be and how we could interject 3D and motion graphics into it and elevate it. And the idea of being at the ground floor and being able to help shape something was really enticing. Though they had zero 3D pipeline, zero 3D infrastructure, there was nothing.
Snippet of the whacky things Sekani has rendered at Cash App.
Sekani:
So literally starting from the ground level when you're talking about processes, even equipment, pipeline, everything had to be built from scratch. But I think doing that on top of having a brand that was very creative allowed a lot of flexibility.
Cory:
Yeah. A willingness to let you do your own thing to a degree, or at least shape some of the stuff, versus being stuck in the Apple way or whatever company it might be, right?
Sekani:
Yeah, yeah, exactly. Which allowed me to express myself creatively while pushing a brand. And I used to do a ton of short films, or personal projects, just because I didn't feel like I could get my creativity out there. But now it's like I don't even feel the need to, because I put so much of that work into these projects.
Cory:
Can you talk to us a little bit about what is the relationship between Block and CashApp? I know that's sort of a recent development.
Sekani:
That's a great question because my role has actually changed. I no longer work at CashApp specifically, at some point we wanted to create a parent brand per se, just because the company was scaling and we had acquired a few companies, so we already had Square and CashApp, and we had a acquired TIDAL, the music streaming service, and then we had two of our business units called TBD and Spiral. And so we still had the Square name, which we called the seller business unit, so it wasn't really clear. So we figured maybe creating a corporate brand, to help kind of clear that up. Just to return ownership of the brands back to the business units. And so I was pulled into that project, which was a beast to say the least. But yeah, let's just say it was incredible, and I was the only 3D person on it per se, so I worked on the logo launch film, so it was a very intense project.
Coming from that, I was given a new opportunity to co-lead a new team, a foundational team that lives outside the business units, that work with all the business units at the company. And we're calling it Creative Studio . We created a film called Reimagine that encapsulates what the team wants to do with our partners, essentially reimagine what their creative can be.
Cory:
Oh, exciting.
Sekani:
Yeah, our first piece that we created. And I think it's going to be really interesting because obviously we've seen a lot of cool things come from companies, but typically they're outsourced. So this is a piece that was fully created internally, by internal designers, so quite excited about that.
Cory:
Yeah, that's a pretty big shift from walking into their office and having to build their entire infrastructure at CashApp, to now creating teams and overseeing multiple brands worth of content. That's cool..
Sekani:
Yeah, no, we pulled in some really talented folk recently, Chris Phillips from Buck, aka Phibs, used to lead 3D design over there. And Zachary Corzine, an amazing designer. He's decided to join us as well.
Cory:
Oh, cool. In your work with CashApp, and before Block, just knowing that that was a lot of time and a lot of work, were you involved with more than just motion graphics? How involved were you with things that were outside of the animation landscape?
Sekani:
A lot. From our investor letter that went out, doing the covers for those, I've done a lot of different projects, whether it be maybe a visual for an event we were doing, to animating on a campaign, to in-app imagery. There's a lot of diversity in the ways that 3D and design can show up, which was nice.
Cory:
Yeah. I've also seen that you've done a little bit of work with Maxon and C4D, showcasing things, and doing demos and stuff like that. How do you like working with them and how did that relationship form? A lot of people use C4D, but not everybody gets to go hang out with the people who make it.
Sekani:
Yeah. Actually, it's funny, in 2014, one of my college professors, he was supposed to speak at NAB and he couldn't make it, so he let myself and another buddy of mine, Jason Diaz, go, and we were these young kids presenting at NAB, and from there I had a relationship with them, and presented at a few SIGRAPHs after that, I think 2016, 2018, maybe 2015, and a couple NAB conferences as well. They're great guys, so it's always good to just have that platform to walk through the work and showcase things, which is nice. And obviously when you're a freelancer, it's a lot easier. But I haven't done one in a while, just because I think with the work that I do now, there's a lot of legal constraints and approvals I have to get to even talk through things externally.
Star Wars: The Last Stand is a dynamic, gritty, full CGI depiction of battle warn storm troopers facing off against an unknown enemy.
Cory:
One thing I noticed when I was going back over our last interview from 2020, was you and Mack talked a little bit about the NFT space, and I was just personally curious if your feelings on that have changed at all in the last couple years.
And you know, you were, I believe, and not to put you on the spot, but you quoted as saying they're not going anywhere, they're here to stay. And you might be right, but I'm just wondering if between 2020 and now, you've thought any differently about that, in our industry, you've got Golden Wolf getting acquired by Doodle and things like that. I'm just wondering where your mind is at with that sort of space.
Sekani:
Yeah, I do think they're here to stay, but the scale, as you can see, has dramatically changed. I mean, even though it did allow a lot of artists to make a lot of money at the time, a lot of it was just funneled by pump and dump schemes and bros using artists as a way to make money. And if you're fortunate to be used in that way, then good for you.
I think people really got tied up into this feeling that it was all about the art, which in retrospect, at least now to me, it's clear that it had nothing to do with the art, but the value that it could generate, which really just mimics the fine art world under all these Van Goghs and those types of pieces, people pay millions of dollars for them, not just because they're beautiful works of art, it's because they're very valuable pieces, and an easier way to store value then maybe it stocks or something else.
So I mean, I'm sure there are collectors out there that genuinely care about art, but I do think a lot of them are just doing it for monetary gain, which, it's fine, but I think we shouldn't fool ourselves into thinking this is just some liberating thing. And I think a lot of artists probably discovered that when they did their taxes.
Cory:
Yeah, no, that's really well put. I mean, it's no surprise it's the same shift that's kind of happened with cryptocurrency in general, and in some ways even calling it a currency these days, it's more like a stock. It's more like that kind of speculative stuff, which is, again, as you say, totally fine, as long as you know what you're getting into.
Sekani:
Yeah, no, exactly. And I think even Bitcoin per se, I think there is a lot of good utility, but no one looks at it for a utility. It's for the value or the money they could make. And it's like people make a use case for it, oh yeah, NFT has a utility. And I'm like, okay, so this puppy will grow ears and legs. I don't know. Me personally, I'm like, okay, this is just a way for people to make a lot of money.
Cory:
Yeah. I like what you said, if you manage to cash in on that, then good for you.
Sekani:
I've just seen a lot of good artists get looked over, haven't sold anything, and quickly I realized it had nothing to do with the art. But you know what, if you've become notable, it's just the real world art scene. It's nothing new here. People have been doing this for years, so it is what it is. But the thing that I always thought about was, I never saw longevity in it, and we just never knew where the space was going to go. I think 2021 was just a wild year. And even me, I was getting an immense amount of FOMO. I really questioned, what you're doing, it's like okay, you could just sell a JPEG for $300,000. Why am I doing this job? It was pretty wild to see. But who knows? I think for some people, that might be the type of thing that may not happen again. If you were able to cash in, then yeah, I think that's amazing..
Cory:
Well, there did seem like there was this really interesting inflection point where it was, you have all these artists who normally make work for other brands, and for commercials, and for advertising. And there was this period of time where they could just make the weirdest thing they wanted, whatever they wanted, and it could look crazy, and people were really into it.
Sekani:
Yeah. Because then, at that point, you're more so an artist. If you're a motion designer, at least to me, inherent in the world of design is communication and problem solving. This is like, if I'm just making art, that's more like, I don't know, an expression, or you're not necessarily trying to solve something specific. You're creating a story or a narrative, which I think is also fine. But yeah, I guess maybe I've just drunk the Kool-Aid too much. To see the amount of hours that I put into this craft, and at least the job that I do, I like the idea of building towards something. If I could tell the story of this product that could help change the way technology is operated, or better a product, then I like having somewhat of an outcome like that.
I guess maybe at this point in my career, I just like the idea of being able to move, because this is the thing, working at a company, when you work at a studio, you kind of deliver the work, and success is based on the craft and the messaging of the work. But the tech, you could put something out, you see all the metrics and you see how it performs, which I think puts a little bit more pressure, not for it just to be beautiful, but obviously for it to function.
Cory:
Yeah. That's a really, really, really interesting point. And especially when you're at a studio, you put out the work and then you move on to the next one. You never even have to think about that again. Whereas now you're building on top of the last layer, on top of the next layer, that kind of thing.
Sekani:
The craft and the quality is very important, but it needs to also be valuable. And that could depend on a lot of different factors, but it's just something that you have to think about. Whereas if you're a freelancer at a studio, you don't need to really think about it. It's more so a creative director's job, or someone else that's not working on the craft.
Cory:
Do you find your day-to-day these days mostly managing teams of other artists, or are you still getting in the trenches and making stuff yourself too?
Sekani:
I'm doing it all. I'm pretty much still in the trenches, still crafting stuff. I actually have a render going right now.
Cory:
Is that by choice or is that by necessity?
Sekani:
By necessity. This team is really small. The amount of work that we are tasked with is pretty insane. Right now we're working on a series that's minutes long and it's all 3D. But I think the technology that we're expanding on is really interesting. At least for me, it's like I have to be able to work at a macro and micro level. So think big picture about the story in the narrative, and then be able to massage the animation on a specific item or something like that. It's an interesting challenge. You have to wear a lot of different hats.
Cory:
Yeah. That's exciting though. Just to get in the weeds a little bit, out of my own curiosity, because I like Cinema 4D a lot. Do you use cloud render farms? Do you prefer one render engine to another? Or what's your sort of go-to with C4D when it comes to wanting to get the look that you're going for?
Sekani:
Yeah, well, I like Redshift just because I used to use Octane, let's say 2016. It was quite buggy back then, and Redshift came and it was super stable and it had all the tools I wanted. I also used to use V-Ray. So Redshift had a more familiar workflow just because they're both biased renderers, and they kind of have the AOV workflow that I liked.
I typically comp a lot of my stuff, regardless of how good the renderer is, I'll always put it in Nuke. And you can try to do something to push it. And so I usually could achieve the look that I want to, at least close to, between the combination of the render and doing some comp work. But people have been saying really good things about Octane lately, so I'd be curious to jump back into that world and see how it goes.
And in terms of rendering, we are recently just building out some new pipelines. We bought a bunch of computers, and we want to get everything that worked up so we could have just our own personal render farm. It's just easier for us too, because we get to keep all information on our servers and not have to extend notes of third party renderers.
Cory:
Good point. I'm sure there's a lot of privacy concerns with that kind of thing. Plus those cloud renders are great until they're not, and then you're kind of out of luck.
Sekani:
Yeah, yeah, exactly. It's just nice to be able to submit a render to deadline. Just don't have to think about - all right, I got to patch this up, to upload it, and yeah, it could get a little taxing.
I know AWS is developing new tech. You could spin up renders or render nodes directly in deadline, and then there's a render token thing that Octane uses, and it's going to be really helpful in the future where you could render things by blockchain technology, which is interesting. And everything's encrypted, so no one else can see the data, which is pretty cool.
Cory:
Are you mostly remote these days with Block and CashApp, or do you guys have an office presence at all?
Sekani:
Yeah. Well, it's fully remote, so you don't have to come into the office if you don't want to, but I try to go in at least twice or three times a week. We have two offices in Soho, one for CashApp and one for Square. But just after two years of working from home, it is nice to actually be around people, have a conversation with people and discuss things. And just even discussing creative: typing feedback or having conversations via Slack is good but also having to, “Hey, are you available for a call?”
It's just so much easier to walk over to someone's desk and have a conversation, you can point to the screen. So just getting some of that feeling is great to have in person than the rapport you build, and that camaraderie you get, it's pretty nice.
Cory:
I wouldn't mind asking you a little bit about maybe some advice for people who are up and coming in the industry. Do you have any pieces of advice or things that you did, you think, in your youth that you wouldn't do now?
Sekani:
I think it's good to start at a studio. I think if you find a good one, it's good to be staff. You get to learn a lot by working with a lot of people. Also, if you're in college, it's good to do internships, because it provides a more risk averse way to learn. I think when you're a freelancer, there's a lot more pressure for you to perform. And so if you're an intern, the expectations are different, it's like, oh yeah, he's an intern. We're not expecting anything crazy. So it's a good way to learn without the pressure.
Also, if you're a motion designer, I think it's better to narrow down your skillset a little bit. You're a 3D motion designer, which does both animation, or in design, design animation, or you do one or the other, or you're 2D, or maybe you do a little bit of after effects and 3D. It's hard when you say you can do both, unless you can really do both very well, and there's 100% people that can, but from a marketing perspective, it's easier to get yourself in the door with a few things. And when you get in there, you're like, well, by the way, I can actually do this stuff, and the other.
Always seek mentors of people you could ask questions to. And what else? Just make a lot of work, make the work that you want to create. But also, and this is a thing I see when looking at candidates, a lot of portfolios are just built on a lot of random tests, or a lot of abstract stuff, without the thinking or design behind it. And if you're looking purely for craft, then that's great.
Cory:
I do think that's one thing that, at least in the portfolios we've seen that come out of Savannah, that come out of SCAD, they seem to do a pretty good job of having students not only showcase the final product, but also showcase the thought process that got them to the final product. I don't know if that was the case when you were there, but it's something I've been impressed with, their program.
Sekani:
Yeah, no, I think that's really good. They really teach you the process of design, and that's where I learned a lot of my chops from, because I never took a 3D class when I went to SCAD. It was all about design and storytelling, and how to build a narrative, and ways to keep things exciting, and that type of stuff. So yeah, I think if you could have some of that process in your portfolio that could show that, Hey, I can not just make things, but I could think about it conceptually, and this all makes sense, then I think that makes it a lot stronger. In your portfolio, that is.
Cory:
That's interesting, yeah, that you learned the software on your own time, and learned more of that fundamental stuff at school.
Sekani:
Yeah, yeah, exactly. School I think is for learning some of the soft skills, and there's so many resources online to learn the software, but it's really hard to find a course that teaches you about the principles of design, and how they're applied, and storytelling. Those more nuanced things are more difficult to learn. And then there's a matter of taste. How you develop that over time. That just takes time. I mean, I think that's where, when you say this person's talented, I think some people innately have good taste.
Cory:
I'm just curious, out of your whole body of work, is there any project that you're the most proud of, or one of the most proud of, and maybe why?
Sekani:
I think the projects I'm usually most proud of, are the ones that, if I had an idea and a concept and I was able to execute on that successfully. Maybe my film, maybe Hidden, is always up there for me. I think I had an idea for a narrative and I saw it through, and I kind of made the whole thing myself, which was just in my free time. Which was interesting, because back then no one was really using models and cloth [like that]. And now obviously that's the trend. So you look at it now and it feels like what everyone else is doing. But I was fortunate enough to release that before it became a fad. But, I try not to be too precious.
Hidden is a short film about self appreciation.
Cory:
Yeah. Yeah. Well that's so important in the industry, you know? Can't be married to anything, especially if you're dealing with a client.
Because I also came from an in-house studio before working with Dash, and I think one thing I realized is, it's very easy for a brand to get stale or one track, because there's a point where you're focusing more on how much can you release, versus what's the quality, and what's the meaning behind it. So how do you continue to push the brand, and what do you think through when you're thinking about that?
Sekani:
I would say it's just about how the team is organizing the type of people that they're bringing in and just knowing what to keep in house, what to outsource. And at some point, if people just have to be honest, what can really be churned out? And sometimes it's better to put out less and have better quality than to just oversaturate the market.
Cory:
Great. Thank you. Well, this has been really great, thanks for chatting with us.
Sekani:
Yeah. Awesome. Thank you guys for taking the time to chat with me.
Meet the speakers: Macaela VanderMost
An interview with Macaela VanderMost, Founder & Executive Creative Director of Newfangled Studios. Under Macaela’s leadership, Newfangled Studios combines the strategic thinking of an agency with the craft and artistry of a production company. Whether they are creating social campaigns or developing short-form brand films, Macaela, and her team use storytelling and design as vehicles to combat stereotypes, amplify underserved communities, and move the needle forward for her clients.
Q&A hosted by Cory Livengood and Ashley Targonski.
Read time: 15min
Cory:
Hi Macaela, it’s great to see you and interview you for the Bash - we'd love to just know a little bit about what your career looked like before Newfangled. How you found yourself in the motion design space and the studio space even before you started your own, and what that journey looks like?
Macaela:
Sure. I started my journey as a video editor and I worked in reality TV. Anyone who's been a video editor knows that you're the one who ends up staying up all night long, because everything up until that point has had delays or questions around it. And I started feeling a little bit frustrated with that and thinking, well, maybe I actually want to be a producer because I could see the problems at the top. Also, I was in my early 20s. So at that point in my life, I “knew everything” and I could see that I would be a great producer. So then I pivoted to starting to become a producer, and I got a gig as a predator, so it was like a producer/editor on a reality TV show.
Cory:
I've never heard that term before. That's really great.
Macaela:
Oh, it was a thing back in the early 2000s. People were predators. Then I realized that actually it's neither producing nor editing that I want to do, it's creative direction. So it took me a couple of wrong turns to get to realize that I wanted to be a creative director. And that was because I started freelancing, I realized that TV wasn't for me and I really wanted to do advertising. And so I started freelancing at an ad agency and I would be the person in the edit suite working live with a creative director. And they had all the ideas and the vision, but they didn't have to execute every detail themselves And I was like, that's what I want to do. I want to be the ideas person. And so I pushed forward with what I knew how to do and knew how to get paid for, which was editing until I had more gigs than I could handle.
And I decided, okay, when that was the time I'm going to start my studio. So starting my studio meant, say I wasn't going to come in person anymore. Because at the time it was only in-office, and nobody took projects remotely. It just didn't happen. I said, Nope, I'm a studio now, so if you're going to hire me, I'm going to do it in my own space and I'm going to have an intern who's my assistant, and I'm going to put a TV in the room and you can come in and sit with me and this is my edit suite and you can hire me this way. And so some of the people who worked at that big ad agency thought, okay, cool. I'll hire Macaela. She's a post-house basically.
And I started getting gigs that way. I'm not a designer, but I've always had an eye for design and an ability to direct what I wanted it to look like and be able to see it in my mind's eye. At all the places that I worked, there was always a motion graphics component to the editorial work or the branding or the lower thirds or the show open and close. So that was always sort of part of what I did. And I surrounded myself with a lot of people who did that, and I would partner with them to get things done.
And then over time, and this was back in 2009, I realized, okay, if I want to start getting bigger jobs, we need to do the production as well because then I'm going to be able to do the post. So I started partnering with more people who could do production and then got one job at a time. I built it up to what it is now and was able to build it starting out with literally nothing. I didn't have any money or any equipment or anything. I just knew people and was a decent editor and can pull things in. And then I had producing chops so I could do the budget and the schedule and manage the job. And now we're 32 people and we have all the great equipment and resources and wonderfully talented people, and we handle all the way from creative; through concepting, live action, sign, animation, editing, and then the project management along the way.
Cory:
That's fantastic. So even with the live-action work, you're doing that in-house, you're not hiring out other crews and other things like that. I mean, your equipment, your studios, and your... Fairly mixed.
Macaela:
Typically, the way it works with live-action is that you would have staff producers and staff directors, and then the particular crew, you're going to hire out the right camera person for the job. The right gaffer, the person who's going to do the lighting, the hair and makeup artist, all those people are going to be freelanced. But for the most part, we have our go-to people who we've worked with over and over again. I mean those people really wouldn't be staff anywhere that you went.
Cory:
Yeah, that's similar to our experience too with our live-action, which is a little less than you guys, but yeah, it's a very similar process.
Macaela:
So you have your producers and directors in-house, and then you pull in your freelancers for the shoots.
Cory:
When you started was that the goal, going from a single person to a company?
Macaela:
Yeah, it was always that I was going to grow a studio. In fact, this is my third attempt at a studio.
Cory:
Oh wow.
Macaela:
I started Phatcaddy Productions when I was a teenager, and then I started MVM Post, and then I started Newfangled and Newfangled was the one that took off. I have always wanted to be an entrepreneur. I never thought about anything else. I never even considered anything other than entrepreneurship.
Cory:
That's great.
Macaela:
Yeah, there was really never, it never was like, oh, should I or shouldn't I? It was just like, this is what I'm going to do. And I just kept trying different angles until it happened.
Macaela VanderMost, Executive Creative Director, Newfangled Studios
Cory:
These days the inclusion and diversity components of a company have become, and I guess this is a good thing even though sometimes it has bad parts, trendy. But I wonder for you, is that always also part of the equation as far as bringing in underrepresented people as you built Newfangled in particular, the studio that made it? Or is that something that's just more of something that everyone's coming to terms with now and getting more visibility around?
Macaela:
So I'd say we started around 2011. So maybe it's just the stages of survival and what you're thinking about. But at the beginning I was just thinking about getting better at my own skills and getting jobs and partnering with the right people and getting the work done. And it wasn't really as much on my radar. And also I didn't feel very empowered to have a voice back then. And then in about 2011, I started getting a little pushier with my clients about being inclusive, specifically with casting, with the way that we drew characters, with storylines, with inclusive language, not always being ableist with your language or not always being heteronormative with your language.
But at that time I still wasn't... It's a journey like anything else. I was still at the beginning of my journey and then I put out the series Untapped, I think that was in 2016 maybe. So still far before what happened to George Floyd, when everybody realized that this is important. But at the time, that was when we first started really pushing hard beyond the LGBTQ and women or female-identifying people and really expanding it out. And we started doing a lot of pro bono work in the disability community. I think my horizons were just broadening, we were growing up a little bit as a studio. I was growing up a little bit as a human, by that time I was in my mid-30s.
And once I started to have bigger clients and more confidence that when I said something, they would listen versus always being afraid that if I pushed too hard, they were just going to go elsewhere or that I was going to come off as annoying and pushy. And it really had a lot to do with building my own personal confidence and as building the Newfangled brand, people would trust me because they trust my brand, so we started pushing harder and harder and making it more of our core identity. Untapped, I think, gave us some of that credibility.
We opened up the 3% Conference with that video, and we included some really big players from some really big companies that were part of that. And all of that was, we didn't get paid to do that. We just did that on our own time because we wanted to. I think that was really the catalyst for crystallizing it as a core value of Newfangled. But again, it was all an evolution because Newfangled wasn't started by hedge fund people, and here are the core values and our identity, what we're going after with this big business strategy. It was really like...
Cory:
How do I pay rent?
Macaela:
Yeah! I was just this dork who was obsessed with making videos and I did nothing but that for a really long time until it grew into a thing that is bigger than me.
Untapped: Macaela’s Fight for Equality
Cory:
Well, and that's really, that's where the confidence to be able to make those, as you said, okay, now people know my brand and they know that I'm the expert and speaking as an expert on this, you get a lot less pushback I'm sure, than the annoying person you were worried about.
Macaela:
And also it's just the relationship with my clients. I mean, at this point, whether it's about DEIB or anything else, I'm very comfortable to, after the big meeting in front of everybody, call the cell phone of my client, and be like, can we offline about this? And I have that relationship with people. Whereas when you first start out, you don't and it can be scary to do that, to take a stance.
Cory:
Yeah, that's a really good point. Did you ever run into situations with clients where they were pushing back against that? Or have they all been pretty open to those conversations? How do you navigate?
Macaela:
Before 2020 it was constantly a battle.
Cory:
Interesting.
Macaela:
Even post-2020, there are times when we get a lot of the, wow, let's just do it both ways just to be sure.
Cory:
And you know that they're going to pick the other way. Right?
Macaela:
Yeah. I think typically before 2020, for the most part, the people who I was surrounded by had similar values to mine, but maybe not the passion to push it forward. And so while they wanted to see representation in the work, they didn't care enough to stick their own neck out. So I might have put something forward that maybe seemed a little risky to them in terms of will every stakeholder in the whole wide world, including middle America, be happy about this? No, let's just not take the chance. Let's just do the safer thing. So while it's not that, I don't think that anybody I was working with was a bad person or inherently racist or homophobic or any of those things, I think they just didn't care enough to take a risk and say to their boss, I stand by this and here's why. It was just easier to say, that seems a little forced. That was a line I'd get a lot. It seems a little forced.
So I would get pushback for that reason. Or they would say, let's do it with and without. So it started in early 2011 through maybe 2015. It would be a hard no. Like I'm cool, but other people might not be. So let's just be safe and take it. And then 2015 ish to maybe 2020, I get a lot of the, let's just do it both ways. I'm cool, maybe they won't be. And then from 2020 and beyond, all of a sudden it's like, hey, in the brief, let's just make sure we're being diverse. And everything is like this has to be a diverse cast. And it's like the cast is one person. I'm like, do you know what the word diverse means? Making your one character black didn't make you diverse.
Cory:
Yeah.
Macaela:
From 2020 and beyond, it was a mandate, even though they didn't know what they were talking about, and they would just call everything diverse. It just meant we don't have all white people. It's been a journey. We're all on a journey.
Cory:
Yeah. And when you get that pushback as a business owner, an entrepreneur, you don't want to say no to a contract or you've got to pay your staff and things like that. I mean, this is a delicate question but just wondering, how often do you acquiesce? Do you say, okay, we're going to do it your way, even though I know it's not the right way? Or is that something you had to do more of before and less of now?
Macaela:
I would say in that benchmark before 2015 where I became very confident in my viewpoint and not really worried if I was going to get the next gig or not.
Cory:
Yeah.
Macaela:
I would do, I mean, I went as far as editing myself. Personally, I was asked to be in the video and then they asked me to edit myself out of the video because not everybody wanted to see gay people.
Cory:
Wow!
Macaela:
So I definitely cried in the bathroom after that one.
Cory:
Yeah.
Macaela:
I would just do whatever they said because I wanted nothing more than my studio to take off. And these were big brands. Out of the gate, I was working with big brands and so I was intimidated. After 2016, I think partly because I had made this big public stink with Untapped, I just felt empowered to be like, no, I'm not doing that. And I did many times. I did take it both ways. I'll give you another just very personal example. We were doing a shoot for a company and there was a scene and it was like two parents picking up a baby out of a crib and nuzzling them. And so it was at the time I had a newborn baby.
So I volunteered my baby for the shoot and she was in the scene and I cast a lesbian couple. They weren't really a couple, but I cast them to look like a couple. And the scene is, they pick up the baby and they're kind of nuzzling the baby out. And this is when clients were remoted in, this is probably, well, I know which baby I'm talking about. So this would've been 2018. My daughter was an infant. And I get a client comment on the other end from someone who I know well and is a good person who said, Hey, I love that we're being diverse, but could we just get it another way? Could we just have a man and a woman? And I didn’t happen to have a second set of backup actors. So one of my producers who just happened to be a very good-looking guy was like, I'll do it.
And he stepped in with the more feminine looking lesbian of the couple and pretended it was their baby. And then for the whole rest of the shoot, every time that we had the lesbian couple cast for something, we'd shoot it that way and then my producer would step in and pretend to be the dad and we'd shoot it the other way. And that was kind of that mid-ground where it was “get it both ways”. I still made sure that the lesbian couple ended up in the cut, but I was riding the line during the shoot, even though I was pretty upset about it. And it was pretty awkward for my producer who knew what he was doing and knew me.
Cory:
Yeah.
Macaela:
It was pretty awkward for him. But there were a lot of things like that where it was like, I want to do this, but I'm also afraid that I'm going to get in trouble. So can you cover my butt and make sure that you just have the white straight guy in the shot too? And then I would fight the battle later in post. So sometimes it's just a matter of picking the time and place, but still getting to the same end goal of that is what ended up being in the co.
Cory:
Yeah. That's a crazy story. I'm glad that it worked out in the long run though. That's great.
Macaela:
There's just a lot of things like that. It's just very, very, very common that it's the, just get it both ways.
Cory:
And these days you have people on staff who DEIB advocate roles on staff too. And what does that role sort of entail and how does that play into the production, your client work?
Macaela:
We partner with Joy Channel who works as an extension of our staff to push our DEIB mission forward. So for diversity, they help us with qualitative and quantitative studies, so they conduct listening sessions with the staff about what any of the issues are. They do the quantitative, they keep track of our industry benchmarks and where we are so that we know, hey, we're doing good here, but we need to work on this over here.
So that's more on the diversity part. Equity is really about making sure that people have access to the tools that they need and can advance in their careers regardless of their background. And that can be anything from just something that really recently came up from a survey last week. We have some people who don't have great eyesight, and when we're screen sharing, we weren't sending out the deck in advance. We were screen-sharing the deck and sending it out after. That's an equity thing. Some people don't have great eyesight and they couldn't freaking follow along, but they felt embarrassed to say, I can't see it. So that's just an example of things that can be that simple that are about equity. Another example is when we went remote. I’m in my 40s, I have a house with a home office and a yard.
It didn't occur to me that not everybody has a private place to work. And at the time, my designers, I was like, here you go, take your workstation home. And it was two monitors and a giant tower and they were like, cool, I'll put this in the kitchen with my roommates. And so it was an equity issue that we uncovered by social listening. Where I needed to get certain people laptops so that they could go have a place to work. So things like that. That's the equity piece. Inclusion is really about how you include everybody's opinions, viewpoints in an environment where it's one very subjective, two, some people are just loudmouths on my staff, and some people are incredibly introverted. How do you make sure that everybody is included in the conversation?
And then also it’s about belonging. Inclusion is about, “Hey, we want you here for professional reasons. We value your opinion. We think you're good at what you do.” That kind of thing. Belonging is more about, we want you here because we like you, you feel like you belong. You're a part of this team. And it doesn't mean that you're a part of this team because we have a homogenous culture, but you're a part of this team because you uniquely bring something valuable. And we have people who are on the autism spectrum. We have people who are super outgoing and love to be social. We have people who came from very modest, low socioeconomic backgrounds, and we have people who went to Ivy League schools and come from generational wealth. Plus racial plus LGBTQ plus and age, how do you take all those disparities and create a culture where everyone feels like they belong?
We're still working on that, especially in a remote culture. But that was something that we needed to deal with as a studio because we used to all be in person and we used to all be pretty close, hung out, and we were kind of homogenous in that way. We might have had different genders and races, et cetera, on our staff, but ultimately we liked the same things we joked around in the same way we all lived in Boston, we went to similar colleges if not the same college. So we had all of that in common. And as we try to become a more diverse company, it's not going to be like that. And we're remote, so we have to be more intentional about the belonging aspect of it. So what they do is they do things to facilitate all of that internally.
And then for our clients, if someone comes to us with a campaign and we want to make sure that there's representation from whatever community that the campaign is targeted toward or whose story we're telling if they identify with that, they help us otherwise, they help connect us to the right people.
Cory:
Yeah, that's fantastic. I'm taking notes. It's great. I wouldn't mind learning a little bit more about your pivot to remote working too. Do you still have a physical office at all or are you fully remote at this point? And sort of how you pivoted that and the cultural aspect of that, the belonging aspect of that is something that we are struggling with, everyone's struggling with. And if you have any advice, frankly.
Macaela:
I wish I could say we've cracked the belonging aspect of it, we haven't. What I can say is that we're actively trying. But going back to when we went remote, it was probably the same story as every other studio. We sent everybody home with their big bulky machines. And we made a spreadsheet that wrote down what everyone took home.
Before that you could be remote one day a week, that was our policy. So everyone had one of those orange LaCie hard drives issued to them, and we had a VPN where you could VPN into the server and download something if you forgot it. But it was painfully slow. I mean, really, it was like if you needed an AfterEffects project file, you could grab that. But if you were trying to edit or something, definitely it wasn't going to work. So we had a little bit of infrastructure set up to be able to work from home, and that was it. Since then, we tried a whole bunch of different things that didn't work until we landed on something that works pretty well for our studio. It's robust now, but a lot of it is because we get security audits from some of our clients.
Cory:
Think of something else. Yeah.
Macaela:
Yeah.
Ashley:
That's really cool to hear that y'all have created a system where you're able to do a lot of that without it being such a huge pain point.
Macaela:
Yeah, it's really not a pain point at all anymore, but what it takes is dedicated resources. So we have two outsourced IT teams, one that is specific to the data center in Lucid Link and Iconic workflow, really the workflow for artists. And then we have another one who is specific to more general IT, making sure that our security and all of that kind of stuff is up-to-date. So we have two different IT teams, but then you need a point person, which is why we hired an operations manager.
Cory:
Yeah, that's currently me. So again, taking notes.
Macaela:
My God, you need a Kayla, that's my operations manager.
Cory:
We're getting there. I wonder a little bit too when it comes to some of the work that you're doing, is it mostly around producing packages of deliverables that you're handing to clients? Or are you pushing more into placement and strategy and some of those decision-making processes that go behind what to do with the videos that you're creating at Newfangled, or do you stay in your lane as it were?
Macaela:
No, we're very much involved upfront. We have a seat at the table with the media agency, so we don't place the media, but usually, before the media plan even comes in, we'll make recommendations based on the brief and say, oh, well, this could be really cool if we did X, Y, Z. And then once the media agency comes in, we'll usually have a phone call with them and talk about where your media plan and our creative really push one another. But we started getting credibility with that because we got this project with Google where we're creating the playbooks of how Google can best use the different social media platforms. And we're creating, they're these hundred-page decks that explain everything about the platform, how you can use it, the different ad formats where creativity and ad formats can intersect.
And then we work directly with those platforms to build them out, and then Google uses that to train their teams. So because of that project, which has been ongoing for a few years, we're the people who do that. We really have become experts in all of these different ad units. And then it ends up turning into a lot of consulting work also for Google. So for example, Google has hired another agency to do, I can't say too much about it, but a large project that drops in the summer that everyone will see when it comes out, and there's a TikTok component to it. And so any creative that's going to go on TikTok is getting run by Newfangled for notes and consultation. Then the pre-pro book is being run by us, and then we'll do the edit for it because they know that we really understand the ecosystem of TikTok and not that we're completely reinventing what they're doing, but we can nip and tuck and nudge in different directions to make it more social for us.
Breakdown of Newfangled's Google Chrome Integrated Social Campaign
Cory:
That's really interesting.
Macaela:
The understanding of the social ecosystems is our superpower I think.
Cory:
Is there any advice you might give someone who is a freelancer now who's decided to or is trying to decide to take the leap into creating a studio, making that pivot?
Macaela:
A couple of things. I guess if you're already successful, you probably have a decently large body of work. Edit it down. I don't need a portfolio with 50 examples of your work on it. Be really particular about what you put out there, have a really badass reel. I think that's super important. But probably the most important thing is the relationships. So you're only as good as the last gig that you did. If you phone it in on a project, a studio owner or a producer is going to know it, clients are going to know it, and they're going to feel it. Be willing to go slightly out of your lane. If you're an animator, I know that you know how to mock up something in Illustrator, be willing to do it, even if I've hired you for the day as an animator. And I think those are the types of things that help you go from being a successful freelancer to having a studio. Because if you do those things, and I know you're going to work hard, you're going to put in the extra effort. You're going to treat us with mutual respect and kindness. You're going to push for it to be more creative, but you're going to stay on brand, you're going to do all those things that that is what the studio owner wants.
Then trust is built. And once you have trust, I mean, that's when the relationship can take off to anything. And you have to remember that, you might be working with someone who is at such and such a job now that person is going to move up the ranks and move on in their career, and they may take you with them. So many of the most important clients that I have today were not very senior level. And they were working at an ad agency when I met them, and now they're executive creative directors at some of the world's largest brands. So it's really treating everybody with that respect, regardless of where they are, and being really honest and not taking on more than you can handle so that you can do everything really well and then let it build on itself.
Cory:
That's great. Great advice. Yeah, a lot of our clients are born out of those similar relationships. I knew this person at an agency I used to work at, or I used to work with them at this company, and they quit. And then two years later, we get a phone call from them when they're somewhere else.
Macaela:
Yep.
Cory:
Never burn the bridge.
Macaela:
Yeah, exactly.
Cory:
That's great. Just one last question, as someone who you mentioned at the top has tried to start a couple of studios and failed, frankly, but succeeded in the long run, what would you say to someone who's sort of struggling right now, someone who's new in the industry, or just hitting up against that wall, is there any advice you might give someone to get back on the horse as we mentioned earlier?
Macaela:
This might sound rough, but the truth is that this is a hard industry to break into and that the people who are successful almost make it their entire personality. You have to eat, sleep, breathe, and dream it. If the passion is not burning inside of you for it, my advice would be to take those skills and apply them to another role. If you are completely obsessed with it, like, you would rather do tutorials than hang out with friends. You can't watch anything, commercials, anything because you're thinking about “how did they make it?”
Then I think I would just say, just keep going. You continue to make yourself ready and then the door will open and you'll be ready standing in front of it, but you can't wait for the door to open to get yourself ready. So I think it's really just about knowing that level of passion. It's just an industry where you're not going to succeed unless you're completely addicted to it and have that much gas in the tank, which is why I was able to start the studio in my 20s that I probably couldn't start now.
Cory:
Well, thanks so much for taking the hour with us and talking through your career we really, really appreciate it!
Macaela:
Yeah, thank you. Bye.
Meet the speakers: BIEN
An interview with Ricardo Roberts, Executive Producer, and Hung Le, Creative Director of BIEN. Founded in 2017, BIEN pioneered a unique methodology called Inclusive Motion Design (InMoDe™) that helps brands be more profitable and effective through accurate representation on-screen and behind the scenes.
Q&A hosted by Cory Livengood.
Read time: 15min
Cory:
Good to see you both! So I'd love to hear from both of you what your careers looked like before BIEN. Where were your paths before they converged into this endeavor?
Hung:
So yeah, I started my journey in Houston, where I learned graphic design. I was in a really amazing traditional graphic design program at the University of Houston. I think my path is very relatable for a lot of people in the industry because I did not come from a very prestigious background, both in education or starting at a big studio. I started out at a local university because that's what I could pay for and learned graphic design, print design mainly. And I think upon graduation, and I think obviously all of us at that point in school, you look at everything and you get inspired by motion design. But I did not choose that if you will.
It's just that in my first job out of school, I had a few different offers either from web design and then there's a TV station, local TV station. So my professor, I remember, told me, "What do you have to lose? Even if you don't like it, you just quit six months later." So I went with her advice and I went and worked at a local CBS station and got myself familiar with what the heck is motion design and from more of a TV, network news perspective too.
So after that, I just went on and worked at a local production, live-action production house. They needed an artist, like a graphic designer or motion designer to be on staff. And the title was super enticing. "You'll be the Art Director." And I was a couple of years... Not even that, a year and a half out of school, and I'm like, "I'm going to be the Art Director."
Cory:
That's awesome.
Hung:
But I would direct myself because there's nobody else there.
Cory:
I was going to say you're the Art Director, but you're probably also the motion designer and editor, the-
Hung:
The Rotoscope artist. Yea, whatever they needed. So titles don't mean anything. So that's where I worked. And the pay bump was so great from my first job out of school living in Houston that I thought that was it. I felt good. My family is still in Houston, so there was no need for me to go anywhere. So I felt fairly settled and stayed there for, I stayed at that job for over five years. And then that's when I guess the needle rose when I felt like, I guess, I didn't have anybody to bounce ideas to. I just went to mograph.net to learn stuff from other people.
So I guess like, I'm going to want to try to freelance, and I put my portfolio online. And then at that time, mograph.net was huge. So if you wanted to do something in motion design, with AfterEffects you go to mograph.net, so that's where I was. Ricardo found me on mograph.net actually in those early days when I put my portfolio up. And then the other person who contacted me was a producer from Chicago. And I still had my full-time position at that time because I just put it up. People tell you, you don't quit your job and look for new work, right? You gotta prepare.
Hung:
So they hit me up and said, "Hey, we got this job. We need AfterEffects artists. Today's Wednesday. We want you to show up in Chicago Monday. Can you do it? Actually Sunday." And I say, "Yeah, sure, of course, I'm ready."Because to me, I think normally I would not do that to other people. If I worked for you, Cory, that would be terrible, right?
Cory:
Yeah.
Hung:
Last minute. But I think you have to understand the context is that I have been a small fish in somewhere that, at that time, if you want to do cool work, you have to be in New York, Chicago, or LA.
Instagram – For The Fans by BIEN
Hung:
So to me, at that point, I just said I could not turn this down. This was free Harvard Education waiting for me. So that's when I said, I said "Yes," and I apologized to my bosses at the time and just picked up and went. And from then on, I started freelancing, and that's when I met Ricardo on mograph.net and started working with Ricardo and Myriad Media in Raleigh on a freelance basis. And I just freelanced at different shops. Digital Kitchen was the biggest shop that I worked at. They would fly me up to Chicago, and I stayed there, worked there on commercials and things like that, for months on end.
And I also freelanced remotely for a lot of studios in New York, LA. And you have to understand that my portfolio was all oil and gas at that point. That's what the Houston portfolio was if you worked in Houston at that time until now. So my portfolio was just full of a lot of oil and gas work, I did not have any big studio, no Nike on my reel, none of that. So I felt very grateful to have the opportunity to be a freelance storyboard artist to contribute to big pitches for different studios. And I worked remotely for years until my wife and I decided to move to New York, and we moved up to New York, spent five years there working at different shops onsite and offsite, continued to work with Ricardo at Myriad and then moved to LA, and started BIEN with Ricardo in 2017. So I'll pass the story to Ricardo there.
Ricardo:
Yeah, so I actually never wanted to be a designer or be in animation, period. I wanted to be a recording engineer. So I was and am very much into hip hop, and just music in general, that has always been my creative outlet. So after I graduated from high school, I went Full Sail in Orlando. And it was funny because, A, I never thought I was going to be able to go to college. To me, it just wasn't going to happen. But ended up being able to get some loans and grants and stuff like that and was able to go.
So I was down in Orlando, I was learning audio stuff, but I was also learning video production stuff, and then also digital media stuff, which is kind of how they encompassed everything, design, and animation. And at the time, it was like DVD programming with Macromedia, all that kind of stuff. And it was in the beginning three months of school where you sort of learn everything. And I was like, "Man, why am I going to school?" Because Full Sail is expensive!
So I was like, "Why am I going to school to be an audio engineer?" And I already knew a lot of the stuff that they were teaching us. So I was thinking, "I'm going to pay all this money. I'm going to go out of school, I'm going to go to New York and get a job as an intern in some studio making $9 an hour getting coffee for DJ Premiere." And I was like, "Well, if I switch my major, I can learn how to do all this design stuff and make all this stuff and then I can apply it to my record label or whatever I want to do." So I always had an entrepreneurial mindset.
And so I just switched my major to digital media. It was a crash course in design and animation, and we learned character animation. So I was animating characters in Maya and Softimage and in 3D Studio Max. So I did that and I was like, "Yeah, 3D animation, that's going to be my career." But I quickly learned when I moved back to Raleigh, there ain't no 3D animation work happening in Raleigh…this was like 1998.
Ricardo:
So I was working at a Spanish-language newspaper. I was doing print layouts for the newspaper, and then my boss at the time said, "Hey, one of my buddies has a video production company. Why don't you go talk to him because you're not right for this job." He was looking out for me. And so I talked to these guys and it ended up being Will at Myriad Media. So we met and we hit it off. They were awesome. And they were like, "Yeah, you can come on board and do more 2D animation."
So long story short, I started working there in September of '98, and I really had to learn AfterEffects on the job. And it was really an internship for, I think I had three days a week. So I was learning AfterEffects. I was cleaning the office, I was doing whatever to become invaluable. That led to me working with them for many, many years.
Ricardo:
And I found Hung, we met online, as he mentioned earlier, found Hung, and then brought him in as a freelancer at Myriad. And that's how things really took off. That's when we met.
And then Hung said, in 2017, I wanted to get back to my roots in motion design, and I really love the idea of building a business from the ground up. So I wanted to just start over. So Hung and I joined forces, we started BIEN, and the whole idea is to do motion design, but do it through the lens of diversity and inclusion.
Cory:
Yeah, I think that they're relatable stories. I mean, at least for me, because I never studied any design or any motion or anything like that. I figured it all out after college and similarly just put work together. And then obviously Ricardo, I worked at Centerline, which is for those reading, a sort of competitive agency to the one you were at for five years and ended up leaving and starting from the ground up too. So I do think a lot of people look at these superstars who have these big brands, you mentioned your Nikes and all this stuff. But a lot of people who are in this career are starting out at these other...so I really think that both of those stories are really relatable to people.
I think that's a great segue to talk a little bit about BIEN and your methodology, the inclusive motion design. I'd love to learn a little bit about what that means as far as, from your point of view, I know that you've got a lot of resources about it on your website, which is really fantastic. So maybe talking a little bit about what BIEN is and what is the sort of positioning you're taking, the position you're taking on the inclusive motion design?
Ricardo:
So basically, when we started BIEN, we did a lot of competitive analysis and research, and I was working heavily on branding, marketing, and strategic positioning. So I knew we had to find something that made us different. There are so many studios out there that do amazing work, and Hung and I just kept going back and forth, back and forth, we can focus on this and that.
And we really just, when we drilled down to it, we realized, "Hey, we are both immigrants and we have a very different POV from most people." I'm originally from Ecuador, and so I moved to the United States. I didn't know any English, I only knew Spanish and I grew up, in what I would consider a multicultural household, and with a multicultural worldview.
And then the other part is Hung and I both have this urge to do more with our business than just commerce, and more than just creative output. For us, it's really important for us to feel like we are making some kind of a difference through our work. Because again, so many people... You can do amazing work, and the creative is so important, but also at the end of our careers, we want to look back and say, "Hey, we made a difference." It could be a small difference, but we made a difference. We want to be social activists in a way, through our work and through our business. So that's why we settled on inclusive motion design. And so for us, it's inclusive motion design, which we also call it InMoDe.
So InMoDe basically has two pillars, representation and accessibility. So for representation, that means a diverse team behind the scenes to create inclusive content on screen. So it's all about inclusive and accurate representation in the final product, through the character animation or whatever, even if it's live-action. But to us, it's really important to ensure that the behind-the-scenes team is also diverse. And that's something that we all know that our industry struggles with, like many industries. Like the Tech industry, or maybe all industries in the United States, honestly. But motion design seems to be particularly afflicted in that it's not very diverse. So we want to change that. That's our whole reason for being.
And then the second pillar is accessibility. So we know that the world's largest minority group is people with disabilities. So whenever we design, whenever we create, we create with that in mind. So that's like 15% of the world's population. So for us, it's all about design with, not for, that's kind of the whole motto. And that's a quick way to summarize what inclusive motion design is. And our "Why" as I tell everyone is we're doing this because we want to see the industry become more diverse and we want to make a difference. We want to create change, give back to our community, and we want to see more underrepresented artists in our industry and thriving and doing well.
Cory:
There's an image on your website, that I like, which is symbolic diversity versus true diversity because I think that these days, and ultimately is a good thing, diversity inclusion has become trendier. More people want to be a part of that conversation. But I think that image really sums up that a lot of people still maybe phone it in a little bit, like the symbolic versus the true.
Ricardo:
Yes.
Cory:
And so I wonder, how do you have a conversation with a client about this topic in a way that makes them want to be on board with it and not feel like they're being lectured or attacked or what have you?
Ricardo:
It's so funny, Cory, people come to us because they know that's what we focus on. That is our positioning, and that's where we have expertise. So we don't really run into client pushback. If anything, clients have pushed back and said, "Hey, we want this to be more diverse."
I thought at first we would have a lot of pushback, but honestly, I think especially since George Floyd's murder, that's when people really started to seek us out, because we are minority-owned and because inclusive motion design, or anything in the inclusive and diverse space, became more important, more sought after. We haven't had too many issues with that, honestly.
Cory:
That's excellent.
Ricardo:
Yeah.
Cory:
Yeah, so it sounds to me like a smart move and the thing that's helped is, you have positioned yourself as that's your space. And so no one's coming to you and getting surprised that you're bringing this up in a conversation, right?
Ricardo:
No, no. And from day one, we identified a category that no other studio was playing in or owning. So we knew, "Hey, we're going to create this new category and we're going to own that position in the marketplace." So you're exactly right. People come to us because they say, "Hey, they are the inclusive motion design studio." So they know from day one what we're going to focus on and what we're going to do for their brand or their company.
Cory:
I'm curious, from a production standpoint, when you're going through the normal steps of any kind of video-based project, what is different about a project that has this sort of mindset than let's say, a project that didn't before George Floyd or before all that?
Or is there a component to your engagements with clients that is education, not just production? How do you educate a client who even if they come to you and want this, they might not know how or they might be doing it the wrong way?
Ricardo:
Yeah, I mean, that's a great point. I think at the beginning of a project, we always try to find out what the strategy is. Who's the audience? Who are they trying to reach? And then we build a team based on that. So that's the whole design with a, not for, mentality. So once we have that in place, we always come to the client with various ideas, but we always try to push the envelope. And when we first started, we realized sometimes if you're doing a certain type of tech explainer and maybe there is no character animation, we realized maybe we're not going to be able to do something on the screen. So we started thinking about things behind the scenes. So giving an opportunity to an underrepresented designer or animator, or using a certain voiceover talent, like someone with disabilities, we'll use them as a voiceover talent.
It's really, honestly, a lot of behind-the-scenes things that we do. And then we tell the client and they say, "Oh, wow, I haven't thought about that. That's really interesting." But then in terms of when we do character illustration, we always do things through the lens of ethnology and just make sure that whatever we design is accurate and realistic, and it's a realistic portrayal of that particular population.
So when we put those forth in front of a client, then we talk about it, we tell them why, and we tell them, "This jaw line or this nose style comes from this region, and here's why." But in general, it's kind of a mix of both. We're telling them some things, we're also doing some things, and then showing some things.
IBM – Human + Machine by BIEN
Hung:
I think we kind of approach the client with the mentality that it's a collaboration. We have our expertise, you have yours, and we want to solve this problem together, your business problem together, while creating social impact in the process.
And social impact might not have anything to do with your product that you're trying to put out there. It's the social impact that is happening behind the scenes. I think the key thing to keep in mind is for Ricardo and I, we really hone into how tactical our process is. We don't want talking points. We don't deal with things that are just talk and not walk. It has to be very tactical. So it's built into the business. The way BIEN operates, how we operate as a company from the inside out to the production process, to pre-production. Every step of the way, we have this methodology built in, in a way that would be inclusive to the staff and also to the process and to everyone involved.
Now, I think that's the key is that it's not just a talking point to get the client to buy in, and we do it on screen to satisfy that. It's what we do behind the scenes. And I would say that at this point for us, that process is owned by everyone. The producers own it, and they come up with their own processes and their own things. So we are not the ones who are there to say, "Let's follow this structure." The structure evolves, the methodology evolves because our team evolves it, and each one using their own expertise and live experience evolves it differently.
Cory:
Yeah, that's excellent. I love the thought that the final video might just be a bunch of cool shapes and texts, and there's really not an obvious place for there to be a diverse or inclusionary system to it. But that's the veneer, it's the people who put it together. It's behind the scenes. That's great.
Hung:
Our aim, I think, as a studio, I'll call it our top-level claim, and I'm not saying we are there yet, but our top-level claim is that BIEN wants to do top-level quality work, just like many top-level studios out there. But when you look, you peel back the curtain, you find a very diverse team behind the scenes making that.
That's the way we elevate the industry, changing it one person at a time and making it better.
Ricardo:
Yeah, and that ties back into our desire, our "Why" is, we want to see the industry become more diverse. And like Hung said, tactically, we're doing all kinds of stuff. Like, we have an apprenticeship. So we wanted to initially do an internship, but we felt like that was not enough. And internships are great, but if you can't afford to not work a real job over the summer and take an internship wage, which we all know, like a stipend, you can't live off of a stipend, especially in a larger city. We thought that an apprenticeship where we can pay a living wage would be much more advantageous for someone who is just getting started in the industry. And so, instead of a shorter internship, our apprenticeship is 10 weeks and then it goes on six months after. And so we also give our apprentices, what we call a motion survival toolkit, which is Hung and my knowledge and then the studio's knowledge on all of the boring, basic business shit that new newbie designers and animators don't know when they get out of school.
Like how do you submit an invoice that has all of the correct information so you can make sure you get paid on time? How to handle a late payment? How to get work? How to email people?
Cory:
Yeah.
Ricardo:
All of these things, we basically have this toolkit and it's like, "Here, go use this." And then anytime during that six months after the apprenticeship concludes, we want you to stay in touch with us, stay in touch with your art director or your producer or Hung and I. And we give advice, we do portfolio reviews, we do all of these things just like this is about going above and beyond because that is the way they make a change.
And we do that because we identify that at our level, at the senior level, diversity is very scarce. However, at the junior level, we're seeing a lot of diversity. Like Hung and I, we also teach inclusive motion design at Hyper Island, which is a creative school based in Stockholm. And in that class, those students are extremely diverse. And I think there's maybe 65, it's 65% female.
So it's amazing. So there's this new crop of talent that's coming in, and we want to do what we can to make sure that they succeed and that they go on to flourish in our industry.
Another thing I always like to talk about, and I always tell studio owners, and I'm telling you Cory, because we think it's important for us to look at what we do as. We view ourselves as a bridge studio. So it's not about what we can do for talent, it's what we can do for that talent so they can go on and succeed in the industry. So how can we be a bridge between us to bigger and better opportunities?
So what we do is, we practice something called Double the Line. Double the Line was originally an AICP concept. AICP is the Association of Independent Commercial Producers. So they do live-action work, but they started this initiative called Double the Line. And basically what it is, is you take a line item in a project budget and you double it. And so you bring on a junior talent and they shadow a senior talent. We found out about that initiative and we've adapted it and really brought it into the fold of our process at the end.
We do that on almost every project where we can, but it's a way for us to identify that very, very junior diverse talent and give them an opportunity. So they're able to come onto a job that they would not have gotten hired for otherwise because they don't have the portfolio, they don't have the experience. But we give them that experience, we give them that portfolio piece so then they can go and they can say, "Hey, Cory, look at this thing I did at BIEN". And so it's about taking a risk. It's about extending opportunities that may not have otherwise gotten extended.
So that's why I say, man, if you guys would think about doing that, all of us together, we can be a bridge studio network so that we all have a similar mentality. And for us, it's not just about BIEN, we want to spread InMoDe throughout the industry. And these little ideas that Hung and I have been implementing, they're not that hard to put into production. It's not crazy. And when we say double the line, if you can bring someone on for an entire project, that's cool, great. But a lot of times you can't, right? The budgets are not there, we're small studios. So you can bring someone on for a certain phase. It could be for help with storyboards, it could be for one character animation if it's cel animation. So it's these little small little plays, these tactical things that we want to spread throughout the industry. And hopefully, over time, it'll make a change, make a difference.
Cory:
I love it. When you do those sorts of programs or when you're shadowing you in a situation like that, what does that look like? I mean, are they literally making stuff and getting paid for it by the hour, like a freelancer on the day? Or are they Zoom sharing with your artist and just watching how they do something? How hands on is that?
Ricardo:
Yeah, it's kind of both.
Hung:
That part is part of production. They will have the hands in the project and it depends on the level of skills and experience. They could be working on something smaller or larger. So they will be in the production like a freelancer, just any other freelancer, that's equity and equality or in one. So when you put that person in production, it's not so much about what they are doing on that project. They could be animating just a tiny little bird in the background, but the soft skills they are learning, being in the same job, seeing how the art director is doing that scene, seeing how other seniors, say cel animators, are doing that. They're learning from that day to day. They're learning from the process and they will be part of all those conversations with the team.
So our hope is that, we only laid out the options and people can pick that up themselves in all the soft skills while on the job. And then at the end of the job, they can put this in the portfolio and say, "I worked on the job for this X brand."
Cory:
Yeah, I think that's great. And it is really important. We do internships usually twice a year, and it varies from one to three people, depending on our needs and stuff. But it's really important that we always put interns on client work. It's not just getting the coffee or doing the cool social media stuff for Dash. I mean, we do cool social media stuff too, of course, but throughout the course of an internship, you will definitely work on the client work.
And it's similar reasoning. It's like, people need to experience a little bit of that pressure of, "This is a real project for a real person. I'm involved in this actual client work." And then after the internship they're able to say, "I worked for this brand, I worked on this video." So I do think it's a great idea and it is definitely something that we want to do more of and have always tried to make part of our workflow when it comes to junior level people, especially interns or mentors.
Hung:
Totally. And I would say that Ricardo and I would never claim that we came up with these ideas. It's more like, if you can say what is unique about our approach, it's about us really being boots on the ground practicing many things, where other people practice one or two.
Cory:
Oh, yeah. And normalizing that stuff too, just making it a normal part of the workflow…
Ricardo:
And I'll tell you, Cory, to me, why I think internships and apprenticeships, they're so powerful, but Double the Line may be even more powerful because you can bring someone on for just three days, right? But those three days of their work will certainly add value to that project, AND, they also get to see everything going on in Slack.
We work in Slack, right? And so they see all of the production stuff happening in real time and what has happened before they got there. So they already have that inside view of a big project, and then they're contributing for those three days. And then another project comes on, we can hire someone else or that same person, and we always try to vary it up, but it allows for more variety. So when you have an internship... Because as you guys know, it's a lot of work on the studios' part as well. When you have that internship or apprenticeship, it's a long commitment.
But Double the Line can be a week, it can be two weeks, it can be three days, and it can be done for copywriters, it can be done for illustrators, animators, cel animators, 3D, whatever.
Cory:
That is a really interesting point because an internship could be three months, and that does take planning. And so there's something really cool about, "Hey, we're going to drop you into this project for this week, and you're going to get to absorb as much as you can absorb and then walk away." That's really cool.
Hung:
Yeah, I would expand on that a bit to see, okay, that's something everyone can do. But what we would do is with... We think about that process and say, "What can we do to improve this process?"
Pretend, Cory, if you are new, you've never been on a production before. If you are thrown into this process, you are going to be facing this giant blob and you're going to wonder what the heck is going on. So we kind of see that coming, and what we would do is, we do a pre-call with that junior. So if we have a kickoff set for Wednesday, then a day or so before we can have a pre-call with that junior where we say, "All right, do you know what the term cel animation means? I'm just throwing out some things that are kind of technical and unique to the industry, that if you're not, you haven't been exposed to, you wouldn't know. They get to see all the materials beforehand so they can see if they have questions.
The moment you can clear that out for the junior before the big kickoff, then they will feel more inclusive, there's a sense of belonging by the time they get on with the team, because they're not that new kid on the block. They know what everyone else is talking about.
So those little nuances are what we thrive on. That's the before, and what about after? So we think about that deeply.
Ricardo:
And it's funny you mentioned that Hung. What we're trying to do in essence is fast-forward someone's career by a year or two by giving them this inside track and not just saying, you know how it is, "Any questions?" A junior's going to be like, "No." They don't want to look dumb.
Cory:
Yeah.
Ricardo:
So we're telling them like, "Hey, look like we want you to ask questions. We need you to ask questions, and we're going to tell you some things that open up the conversation." But it's really maybe what we all wish we had when we first started, is sort of, not so much a employer/employee relationship, but a mentor/mentee relationship. That's really important to us.
And then one other quick thing that we've started doing is, this is an idea that we borrowed from the tech industry. They kind of brought it to the forefront, recording diversity metrics for our studio, but also the projects that we do. So I mean, I should have said our staff and then also any freelancers that we hire. So we look at those stats after every job, and a lot of those stats suck. I'm just being very honest. A lot of the stats are not what we want them to be, even though that's our focus, and we're actively recruiting people from underrepresented populations. So we use those numbers as that's the cold hard metrics. Those are the numbers that we can't run away from. And our producers, everyone on the team has that mentality of, we want to improve these numbers. We want to move the needle on, I wouldn't say every single job, that's the hope, but it's more like on a yearly basis.
Cory:
Well, you mentioned it before, it's not just talking the talk, it's walking the walk. And that's where the data, I'm sure, comes into it, where you can actually go back and analyze that and see. You're also proudly, it seems, a decentralized sort of global group. I mean, you have staff all over the world, all over the country. I wonder if you could talk a little bit on how, was that an active decision?
Was that a COVID decision? I know you and Hung are both in LA, but a lot of people are everywhere else. And so I wonder if you could talk a little bit about that kind of mindset.
Hung:
I can touch on that first. So I think that what's unique about BIEN, when Ricardo and I came together and thought about the industry, is that we were both outsiders, right? I mean, I think I did not know what the Beatles were until I was like, I don't know, 14 or 15, because I lived in Vietnam in a post-communist world where all western media was kept out. But what that afforded me, learning design, going to industry, is that I don't see anything the same way anyone who had an education here had. So that POV, that lived experience helped me tremendously in terms of being more critical of the work we do as motion designers and studios, the kind of stuff we put out there to the world, talking down to other cultures in a visual way, and I will call that the imperialistic point of view. Because we can't escape it. It's just what we lived in, in here. It's what we learn.
So from day one, when Ricardo and I put the company together, we said, "We need diverse perspectives. We see this remote working thing..." I work remotely in Houston for all studios around the world, I mean the country. Back in the, I don't know, early 2000 or whatever, when that was not a thing, right?
So it was working, and I worked for Ricardo's company, Myriad, for years remotely. I didn't meet Ricardo until, I don't know, 10 years after I worked with them or something like that. So we knew that model worked. So from day one, we said, when we put a team together, it is not going to matter about where they are. It's more about what perspective they are going to bring into the studio. And just like anything, you work with someone freelance, at first you kind of click, you see something, you click, they like you enough, and boom, you're a team. And that's kind of how we are right now.
Cory:
How do you handle the logistical issues that come along with that when it comes to meetings or having a company culture that's sort of on the same page and things like that?
Hung:
Totally. We try to put names to everything so that it sounds legit and that it's easy to remember. So that's inclusive time zones. That's like, what does that mean? That means you have to be respectful of... If we put one of our art directors in Spain, for example, if we are going to have that art director on Delete The Project, then all meetings are going to happen at AM Pacific or whatever that is with the client. And the thing nowadays is, I don't know, I'm sure your clients too Cory, but a lot of companies you work with are global time zones.
Hung:
They deal with that daily on their end. It's like they have colleagues in the UK they talk to. So it's been normalized in a way that you just have to know that you work around these things. And then we just start to implement more asynchronous tools like recordings and stuff that you can set for people, be crystal clear on your feedback, step by step, things like that. And we've been doing it for five years and we never fail a delivery. So I think it's working out fine.
Cory:
Yeah, that's great.
IBM – Glow by BIEN
Ricardo:
I'll just add to that too, just in general, our worldview, my worldview, Hung's worldview, we've always been international. That's how we think. We think globally, and so access to amazing talent around the world is something that appealed to us from day one. It's like, why limit to a certain geography? If someone's super talented and someone can bring a different POV, a different cultural nuance to a job, then that's the type of person that we want to work for or work with.
And if you think about it, the world's just getting smaller and smaller. And then COVID, like really, I mean, won't say there's no such thing, but there's almost no such thing as time zones and international barriers, because we're also used to Zooming and being connected just on various devices and via email and Slack and all that stuff. So just figuring out how to do it asynchronously, I think we've got that down pat.
But I will say there are challenges with culture. Our culture is robust and it's phenomenal and it centers around inclusive motion design and it centers around doing amazing work and telling great inclusive stories, but it is difficult. It's not the same as if you're all in the same room. So there's pros and cons, and we just try to lean into the pros.
Hung:
Also, we try to avoid the extremes for sanity's sake. Because in production, honestly, if you have someone in New Zealand, then they will say "Goodbye, have a good weekend on a Thursday." So obviously in reality, that doesn't work every time. Certain jobs you can do that, but when deadlines are looming and stuff like that. So I would say we are very global, but we are also very conscious of what makes a project realistically doable.
Cory:
Well, it goes back to being tactical, as you say. I mean, we had a project with a short timeline, and so in that sense, we were able to hire a designer in Australia to design our frames that were then ready for our animators in our morning. And so that would've worked out well from a tactical perspective despite the time zone. In fact, because of the time zones, because we could be designing while we were sleeping and animating while we were awake, essentially. And so there are always these weird little cases that pop up where you can move those pieces into place exactly how you need them, which is really cool.
Ricardo:
And you can always choose, you can look at the negative side of it or the positive side of it. If you lean into the positive, you can figure out ways to use it to your advantage.
Cory:
I'd love to hear any advice you might give someone who is thinking about moving from either a job or freelance into entrepreneurship, into starting a studio. Is there anything you might have told yourself when you were starting looking back?
Ricardo:
It's a hard question.
Hung:
Yeah, I mean, from my perspective, and this is just being really, really tactical, I would say that I would not have done it if I did not have Ricardo as a partner. Because I would say that I did not have the portfolio of a superstar in our industry who can attract a lot of talents around you and build a studio from scratch. I was grateful to have Ricardo to know the business side of it so that we could team up and make something together. I don't look at what we did as forming a company as an ego thing. It was more like a necessity.
I think that in our industry in particular, ageism is a big thing. Designers and animators, when they get to their forties, have to look at alternatives in terms of what they can learn, how fast they can learn, how they can adapt, and whether they have built up all the steps necessary to lead to their final season of their career or not.
So I think that that's kind of important to think about is, if you are young and you're thinking about entrepreneurship or owning a studio later, then you have to build all the necessary steps up to that point. And if you haven't done that, then you find yourself in a very tricky situation. So I would say it really depends on your will. The only thing I have to offer, honestly, it's just like I'm very good at making something out of nothing just because of my background. What I lived through, that's kind of my superpower in a way, not my design skills.
Ricardo:
We just make it work. And just real quick too, for any upcoming designers, I want to piggyback on Hung. Thanks for saying that, man. But I think you have to, most creatives, are like, "Oh, my work's going to sell itself." I think you have to really be prepared. If you're freelancing in particular and then want to start a studio, you have to get your portfolio, it has to be technically sound and follow best practices to get clients. And then you just have to really brush up on sales. Those two things are so important because the creative is just going to sit there because there are a million different portfolios that look as good or better. So you really have to focus on what is your positioning, what is your marketing strategy, and what is your sales strategy. Who are you? Who can you sell to? And then, you know, try to find market fit, try to find what clients would hire you, and then you try to replicate that and then expand from there.
Cory:
We really, really appreciate your taking the time to chat with us today. And it's really cool learning how the butter is made, seeing behind the scenes.
Ricardo:
Yeah, Cory, man, we're super excited I can't wait to come back to Raleigh, man. I miss it.
Cory:
Yeah, great. We're looking forward to it.
Hung:
Thank you. Bye
Meet the speakers: Ozlem Akturk
An interview with Ozlem “Ozi” Akturk, an Annie Award-winning creator, cinematographer, and producer in stop motion and mixed media with over 15 years of experience in film and animation.
Q&A hosted by Meryn Hayes & Cory Livengood.
Read time: 15min
Meryn Hayes:
It’s great to meet you! I would love to hear a little bit about how you got into cinematography in the first place.
Ozlem Akturk:
Well, in the first place, I was always into art and also photography. When I was a teenager, I saved up money and bought my first DSLR camera. It was a Pentax 35mm SLR camera. From there, I started shooting in black and white, still photography. I loved it, but I also had a love for movies. First I tried to get into art and photography, but then I had the chance to listen to a lecture at a university when I was young and they did animation and also 16mm film workshops. That experience made me realize that there was the possibility to study film and animation.
With that knowledge, I started looking for Universities all around Germany with the focus on film and animation. I love stop motion, but it was a niche everywhere, and mostly in Germany it was more of one. I found a place in Stuttgart and went to study there. I studied film and animation. We could do everything there: animation, filming, motion control. That got me way closer to working with the right tools, that made me realize I would love to do a real stop-motion short with fellow students.
Looking back, we all thought, "Oh, this is so great," and we are great. No, looking back it's horrible. Stuttgart also has a big animation film festival, the biggest in Germany. They invited international people for lectures and there was this guy Christian De Vita who was working on Fantastic Mr. Fox as the storyboard artist. After his lecture, I went to him and asked if he had contacts or knew if there's another stop-motion feature film planned.
It was indeed, Frankenweenie. He gave me the line producer's email address. I applied, a month later he replied back and said, "Yeah, we are still in pre-production. We are interested. It's happening in London." I was in Stuttgart. "Are you interested in moving to London?" I'm like, "Hell yes!" Then that's how my journey started. I went straight into Frankenweenie and what a dream. Because of my technical background, the camera crew wanted me to be there as a trainee.
They loved what I was doing and I worked my way up to become a camera assistant. Yeah, it was two years on Frankenweenie, because again, stop motion takes such a long time, but it was magic, wonderland.
Cory Livengood:
What are some of the differences between your live-action, traditional cinematography and pivoting over to stop motion?
Ozlem Akturk:
Well, as I mentioned, stop motion takes a lot of time. Live action, you shoot, have a little discussion and then you just continue shooting. On stop motion, depending how long the scene is, a second is the animator has to shoot 24 frames. If it's animated on ones, if it's animated on twos, it's a bit faster, 12 frames. But it's time, it's actually time. And a huge amount of details you put into it. It's less forgiving when someone kicks just a bit of light. If the light bulb pops and you have to replace it, you can immediately see the change. In live action, you don't have those problems.
Cory Livengood:
Is The Tiny Chef shot on ones or twos or depends?
Ozlem Akturk:
It's mainly shot on twos. On feature films, it's mainly on ones., but they have the budgets to do it. The other thing is whenever we have motion control, we have to do it on ones, because otherwise, the camera moves frame by frame. If the animator doesn't animate the second frame, you will see that.
Cory Livengood:
I would love to know a little bit of the inspiration. What inspires you as a cinematographer in the outside world? What do you see and bring to your sets?
Ozlem Akturk:
Oh, well, it's always nature, isn't it? Although I also like to get inspired by other people’s work and art as well and think internally about how to adapt it to my scenes.
Cory Livengood:
He does live in a stump, I guess that makes sense.
The Tiny Shef’s Stump
Ozlem Akturk:
Yeah, nature is one of those things. We always try to get some dapples, so it looks like from the top, light is coming through. Who knows? Through plants or leaves. I'm trying to get some structure into the background, some dapples with the lights, so that has a nice wrap around it. But then again, I work on a really small set, where it's sometimes really difficult to get the lights properly in. You just have to cheat a lot or sometimes you just go with it.
The other thing I love is when you can put practicals in it. Nowadays, LEDs are so helpful and powerful despite their small size. We sometimes have...oh, I have to build my own little lights and just put it into the scene, which I also love just working with miniature.
Cory Livengood:
Yeah, that's interesting. How much overlap is there between you and the set designer and fabricators and stuff like that? It sounds like you work hand in hand.
Ozlem Akturk:
Yes, that is right. We are in such close communication. Every time, we have to. There's no way around it. Yeah, it works perfectly. Jason is amazing, he's our production designer, and he's doing such great work and is very hands-on.
The Tiny Chef on-set.
Cory Livengood:
How did you end up meeting Adam Reid and Rachel Larsen and coming up with this idea for the Tiny Chef? What was the synthesis of that idea?
Ozlem Akturk:
Well, I worked with Rachel on Isle of Dogs. We became friends and then after Isle of Dogs, everyone went their own path, but on Isle of Dogs, she showed me she had that green little puppet, but she didn't know what to do with it. So that went back into a box. In 2018, I wanted to do a live-action cooking show, my own project, because I was burned out from doing jobs for other people. I was like, it's not satisfying anymore. I was like, okay, let's focus on your own project. Because I was pushing it away and I was looking for a proper kitchen location, I was on a location scout.
Then Rachel was in New Zealand doing another animation series called Kiri and Lou. She was working there as an animator, but she started on her Instagram account doing miniature food. It looked really real. That just gave me the idea. I instantly contacted her, I was like, "Girl! Let's do a stop-motion cooking show, and your character, let's call him the Tiny Chef. He's the main character."
She instantly loved it. From there, we instantly got on Facebook, social media, Instagram, and YouTube to get the name, and see if that name was available. From there, we grabbed everything, and kicked it off. I told her, "We need an apron, we need a chef's hat." She did it. The next day, she built a chef's hat, but she didn't have an apron.
Cory Livengood:
It's really blown up so quickly too, which is just really crazy.
Ozlem Akturk:
Yeah, it was crazy. It was crazy. I instantly booked the flight to New Zealand and we were like, "We're going to bloody do this," and we did it. The moment I went to New Zealand, I helped again, setting up, lighting the first kitchen set. We did a couple of clips.
Matt Hutchinson is the voice of chef and that's Rachel's sister's husband. He always did that voice and she was like, "It might fit," and it did. It's crazy how everything just came together. Adam saw what we did and he wrote to us. Rachel knew Adam from a festival. He helped us with the website and that's how we came together.
Cory Livengood:
That's crazy. The moral of that story to me just seems like putting yourself out there, meeting people, and just never letting go of those connections. Or not being so worried that something's going to happen right in the moment, but you can come back to it years later. The fact that the Tiny Chef puppet was put in a box and it was later on, here's the idea. Like you said, meeting people at a festival or on a job or whatever it might be, and just cultivating those connections with people..
Ozlem Akturk:
The other thing is you don't have to do it alone. We are surrounded by so many creative people. If you find like-minded people and you feel like you can work together, then definitely do it as a team. It makes such a big difference to go through challenges together and push you up together.
Meryn Hayes:
What do you think about the Tiny Chef that just struck everyone?
Ozlem Akturk:
We had the idea, we wanted kindness and a change, showing people should be kind and also environmentally friendly. We are wasting so much food and we use so much material. We wanted to integrate it with him, as representing him as a soul of the earth and being kind, gentle, loving animals, avoiding littering everywhere, and just being mindful towards the future and hopefully doing a great impact on kids especially, but then we got so many grownups as followers, which is so funny. But it's great. I love that it attracts every age group.
Meryn Hayes:
I also love that with the world being so chaotic at times, just a reminder that being kind and reminder that we've got one earth. All of that kindness is important, and especially instilling that at such a young age for kids, it's just so important.
Ozlem Akturk:
Yeah. That's also why he's vegan. It's not that you have to be vegan, but just to introduce it to people who don't have a clue what it means.
The Tiny Chef making soup.
Cory Livengood:
It definitely normalizes being vegan or being vegetarian, which is cool. What was it like when Tiny Chef went from a social media phenomenon to television?
Ozlem Akturk:
Well, the thing is, every storyline has a truth. It's all the things we went through, it took such a long time to find a network. I say a long time but on the other hand, if you compare it to other creators, we are in a fast lane.
Normally, it takes a minimum five years until you might get a show. We had a high interest of networks, but again, it took so long and it was such back and forth. That fear. Are you going to get it or not? We thought, we just put it in and he goes through the same story. Yeah, it's actually what we lived through.
Meryn Hayes:
How did that production timelines change from when y'all were doing it on your end and then for Nickelodeon? Did that change your process at all?
Ozlem Akturk:
Oh, yeah. You have to wait for approval and that takes a long time. You see it, and on social media, we have an idea and we instantly just flip it over and make it so we are just on it. That's how we also build up the social media accounts so quickly, because we are not discussing too much. We have a brilliant idea. Everyone is laughing. Every time when we know everyone is laughing, that's the idea. We just do it.
On the TV show, you have to wait for approval and have discussions with executives in LA to get the go. You have to understand the show was shot in Manchester UK and being in the UK and working with the 8 hour time difference just made it slower too before getting an answer.
Cory Livengood:
You attracted Kristen Bell, which is really funny. I love that she's a regular on the show now and also a producer, is that correct?
Ozlem Akturk:
Yeah, she's also a producer, she's helping us. She's amazing.
The Tiny Chef and Kristen Bell on S1 E1 ‘Pancakes/S’Mores’
Cory Livengood:
Yeah, I know. It's hilarious. I was just watching before the interview. One of the episodes where they're just chatting on the phone with each other, Tiny Chef and Kristen just cracks me up. It's so funny. Did she just see it on social media and decide she wanted to be a part of that? How did that relationship form?
Ozlem Akturk:
Jackie Tohn found us first because she was obsessed with miniatures and she introduced us to Kristen Bell. Jackie Tohn is really good friends with Kristen Bell. Kristen Bell contacted us and said, "Hey, love what you're doing, and let me know if I can help you guys."
We are like, "Hell yes." We met with her. As you know, she has the production company, Dunshire Productions with Morgan Sackett and a couple of other creatives. She was saying how she could help us. We were instantly, "Yeah, all right. Let's partner up." As a person and Pro, she's amazing. No bullshit.
Cory Livengood:
Well, stop motion takes so long to do, that you don't need everything else to take so long to do. You just need to cut to the chase.
Ozlem Akturk:
But it still takes such a long time. I wish people would react quickly, but no. Especially again, when so many people are involved, you have to be patient and it's okay.
Cory Livengood:
Some of the things I really like about the cinematography of the show, you mentioned one of them, which are the practical lights that you've integrated into the sets and stuff like that. I think that's really cool.
Another thing I like is the depth of field. There are a lot of shots that have a lot of focus depth to them, which must be difficult to achieve. I don't know if there's any tips or tricks or ways of shooting that you've found or anything that allow you to achieve results that are a little bit more traditional feeling in that sense.
Ozlem Akturk:
As in live-action, you have a focus puller, second camera assistant. On this one, you have just an animator. What I do is, if it's really a difficult shot, where the character moves back and forth, then I work with the animator, because he will need to animate the depth of field too.
I will go with him through the points where he starts and ends, and a third point for the middle, I line it up on the lens, mark it up, and also show him how to do it. Because another thing is when you make a mistake and you have to redo the frame, you have to go back with the focus too. But the thing is, because it still lenses, the lens breadth in it. If you go in the wrong direction, it might jitter. I had to tell him that he goes over the point and then goes back in the right direction, so it goes in the right direction again when he rotates it.
Cory Livengood:
The attention to detail that I have to overshoot just to push it the right way so you're in the right groove to animate your focus. That's really interesting.
Ozlem Akturk:
But then again, if you have a bigger budget because, in feature films, we don't let the animator do that. Dragonframe is a stop motion program, which also can control the motion control. Then it's all automated, but again, you have to speak to the animator again to find those start and end positions and the middle point, but the difference is you have the tool which does it automatically
Another thing you do on a feature film, you block it through with everything, just a rough block just to see the focus hit the point. Then he goes for the real animation, but again, on TV stop-motion, you barely have time to block it. You have to go straight to it. Then the safest thing is the animator just does it himself. They are so good, but then again, it adds to the timing for him to finish the shot.
Cory Livengood:
Another thing you do a lot of, which is interesting, is to have Tiny Chef interact with real people in the same shot, which is really cool. I wonder, how much post-production work goes into some of those composite shots, or maybe just in the show in general when putting it together after the shoot?
Ozlem Akturk:
It all depends. The easiest is when they don't cross. That's really little post-production. It's just finding the places where it's the easiest to cut around and then getting the color to the same ratio, so you don't see the line where it's merged. The moment where they cross live-action and Chef, we will need to use a blue screen. Then, of course, that's more work for post-production to clean it up. But yeah, I love it. Just having the challenge and seeing him in the real world.
That's why we are also looking into new technology. Hopefully, who knows? Another thing is we would like to do handheld shots and hopefully build a CGI pipeline to have more and more in crowded situations and outside. We would take plates, film them, and then integrate the CGI into that scene. Hopefully, in a year, you have to always update your knowledge and technology and also implement it. Of course, we are going to keep doing what we love. Stop motion is always our first love, but we also want to push quality, and challenges and want to make sure people think he's real.
Cory Livengood"
Yeah. He is real. What do you mean?
Not only even in the world of video, but you also have books now. What's in the future for Tiny Chef, as far as just the universe goes?
Ozlem Akturk:
Well, the world is our oyster, right? It would be amazing as just said, if we can integrate more into the world and interact more with people outside being in a restaurant. Then the other thing is we would love to do a cooking game or maybe also... what would be amazing, a virtual reality game. People can be in his stump and have to do things as a chef. I don't know, that would be amazing, but continue building his universe.
Meryn Hayes:
I just hear all that and have to think through the business potential and the licensing and the contracts, and as someone who comes from a creative background, how do you navigate that side of this, which is the financials and protecting the copyright? A lot of the people that are coming to this festival, if they're freelancers, they've come into this as artists and are trying to learn the business end as they go. What advice do you have for people on the business side?
Ozlem Akturk:
On the business side. When we started, we knew we didn't want to sell the chef. We wanted to keep the rights as much as possible. That was the first mission. Without anyone agreeing to it, we weren't ready to go and contract with them. We protected our idea. We were really hard with that, but then on the other side, we had the leverage because a lot of people don't have we could build him up on social media and make a brand out of it. I think a lot of creative people struggle with that.
It's tough. They are all sharks and they want to take it away. It's sad, but it is what it is. The thing is, if you have a project where you are behind it with heart, you have to weigh in. If you take the money, you have to play with their rules. Or are you going to try it the hard way and go your own way without any financial help? Then hope you can sell merchandise and make money like that and support yourself, but that's really a long way and hard as well.
We tried that, but our problem is again stop motion, you have to see it as live-action because everything is physical. You have to build it. It's the same people we hire, you would hire for live-action to build stuff. It is expensive and we needed more investments. We said, "Okay, we need the network." That helped a lot, but again, our first mission was to protect the idea.
Meryn Hayes:
It sounds like you and Rachel and Adam had talked about that, the heart or the money, which is a very hard balance, especially early on. You need the money, but coming to the network saying, "We're keeping him, we're keeping Tiny Chef," that's great.
Ozlem Akturk:
Well, when we started, we were working on other projects and we did the extra hours at night. On the weekends, we still do weekends and nights, but anyway, we did the normal jobs or freelance jobs just to get money in. Then we focused on our free time on the Tiny Chef. We were like, we’re going to continue like that, but we're not going to sell it, because we desperately need money.
We protected it really, really well. Nickelodeon was willing to go with our needs and wishes.
Meryn Hayes:
Good for y'all. What advice do you have for someone who's just getting started or wants to get into stop motion or want to make their version of The Tiny Chef type passion project? What advice do you have for people?
Ozlem Akturk
If they want to see the professional side, I would say apply at one of the big studios, Laika or ShadowMachine ... these are in Portland. If you are in LA, then they're smaller stop-motion companies. There’s also Stoopid Buddy Stoodios, Bix Pix, and Apartment D.
I would say just write them, write to everyone. Be specific about what you like to do, but be willing to do anything when they ask you. You have to go through that process. Ask questions, a lot of questions. People are so kind, especially in stop motion ... they're amazing, seriously. Yeah, they're all chill and they will take the time and show you. Nothing to be afraid of. If you want to do it yourself, you can do that too. Nowadays, it's so easy, even with your iPhone, you can connect it with Dragonframe and take stop frames. You don't even need a fancy camera. Then just an easy light setup. Again, whatever you have in the house, if it's like a desk lamp or something, use that just to get a feel about how it works. If you want to become an animator or building stuff, just do it.
Again, there are so many tutorials on YouTube. You can find so much if you Google, it's ridiculous. But if you want to have professional insights, you should try to apply at those companies. Get the connection and networking game on.
Meryn Hayes:
I love hearing how welcoming the community is. I think it's really special that in these communities, people are so willing to help other people who are trying to get into it or offer advice. I think it's just one of the reasons why we do the Bash, is to let the community have a point where they can meet and talk and ask questions and get advice and help. I just love hearing that the stop-motion community is as welcoming.
Ozlem Akturk:
Yeah, it is. Everyone's so nice. It's unbelievable. I never worked in a kinder environment.
Cory Livengood:
This has been a great conversation. We really, really appreciate it.
Ozlem Akturk:
Oh, I appreciate you guys. Again, respect what you guys are doing and it is such a pleasure meeting you.
Cory Livengood:
Yeah, likewise.
Meryn Hayes:
Really excited to see you in July!