Kirsten Noll Interview
Mack Garrison interviews Kirsten Knoll, an executive producer at Scholar, who shares her journey from a young artist to a successful producer in the motion design industry. Kirsten discusses her educational background, early career experiences, and the importance of community and mental health in the creative field. She offers valuable insights for aspiring creatives on breaking into the industry, the differences between freelancing and in-house production, and the key attributes of a successful producer. The conversation also touches on the challenges of burnout and the significance of setting boundaries in a demanding industry.
Takeaways
Kirsten Knoll is an executive producer at Scholar with a diverse background in animation and design.
She emphasizes the importance of community and support in the creative industry.
Kirsten's journey includes a transition from design to production, highlighting the need for adaptability.
Asking questions and seeking help is crucial for success in the early stages of a career.
Freelancing offers exposure to different styles and approaches, but in-house work provides structure.
The motion design industry has evolved significantly, with more voices and opportunities than ever before.
Networking and building relationships are essential for breaking into the industry.
Successful producers must possess strong communication skills and the ability to navigate difficult conversations.
Setting boundaries and managing stress are vital for preventing burnout in the creative field.
Kirsten plans to discuss mental health and community support at the Dash Bash.
Chapters
00:00Introduction to Kirsten Knoll and Her Journey
03:10Early Experiences and Education in Animation
05:55Transitioning from Design to Production
09:04Navigating Early Career Challenges
11:53Freelancing vs. In-House Production
14:56Reflections on a Decade in the Industry
16:54The Evolution of Motion Design
21:03Breaking into the Industry
26:01Key Attributes of a Producer
30:58Navigating Burnout and Setting Boundaries
35:54Community and Authenticity in the Industry
38:03New Chapter
Transcript:
Mack Garrison (00:00)
Hey, what's up y'all? Mack Garrison here with Dash Studio and we've got another round of speaker interviews for the Dash Bash and I'm joined by Kirsten Knoll. Kirsten is a Los Angeles based managing executive producer, heading up the award winning creative production studio Scholar with extensive experience working with top tier industry defining brands. She's passionate about design driven, excuse me, design driven and multidisciplinary narratives. Her diverse portfolio has brought her around the world from Eastern Europe to Central America.
with production expertise in the full gamut of pipelines, including live action, design, animation, and VFX. What does Kirsten not do? Welcome to the show, Kirsten. So glad to have you here. Of course, I don't even know if this is a podcast, it's a vidcast. Some people were listening, some people were watching, but yeah, super pumped to have you here. The amazing work that you all do at Scholar. We're so pumped to have you at the Bash to jump into this.
Kirsten (00:39)
Thank you for having me back!
Thank you, thank you. I will keep this here and say I'm not cool, so I don't know what to call it either. And that's my initial plug for why you should come and see me is I'm super not
Mack Garrison (00:57)
Hahaha
Kirsten (01:02)
saying, hi. So I'm not cool, I'm not hip, I know this about myself. No, I have no idea what to call it. I feel like someone will.
Mack Garrison (01:02)
Come see me talk, I'm not very cool.
Well, I love it. mean,
honestly, we're all kind of a little unhip and kind of nerdy to be in the creative and motion design animation space anyway. You need to be a little quirky. So I think honestly, it's apropos and fitting for us. yeah, maybe we can just jump in it right off the bat. I'd love for you to give a little bit of background on kind of how you got into this space. I'm always curious what are some of folks earliest animation memories, production memories and kind of how you got into this space.
Kirsten (01:18)
true.
It's true.
So that's a great, great question to kick it in with. So let's see, I am an artist by trade. I've always been into art ever since I was little. I feel like I did all the things to be fair, music, dance, drawing, all of it, my poor mother running me everywhere.
Mack Garrison (01:54)
running you everywhere, always going to the store buying different things
Kirsten (01:57)
Exactly,
Mack Garrison (01:57)
basically.
Kirsten (01:57)
just she's like, please, please stop. Not really. She's like very, both my parents, very encouraging of the arts. My sister is also an artist, a producer as well. So I feel like that's the constant question too, is like, how did we end up with two producers? No one else in our family has taken a creative path. Like it's like, have like, know, attorneys and that type of thing. So think that we're all just like, we took a hard left.
Mack Garrison (02:10)
Hahaha
that's so funny. Does the family
at least understand what producing is at this point? Like, have you had enough Thanksgivings that they get it? Okay, that's great.
Kirsten (02:23)
Yes. Yes, they
do for the most part. My mom's pretty good, especially my mom about, you no, this is actually what she did. And this is what she made very, very proud to always texting me, did you make this one? And I'm like, yeah, mom, I did, I did. Or no, no, we didn't. And then she's like, well.
Mack Garrison (02:38)
You're like, we actually lost that bed,
Mom. Thank you.
Kirsten (02:39)
And she's like,
well, it was done well. And I'm like, yeah, OK, cool, rub it in. But no, so I went to art school. I went to SCAD in Savannah, Georgia. And I loved it. When I first started up at SCAD, I wasn't sure what I was going to major in. I was really into graphic design. And I've always loved animation. So I ended up, think it's like by your end of your first year, you have to pick your major. And so I ended up doing animation. Traditional 2D cell animation was what I decided I wanted to do with my life.
And then as I was there, I think I at one point added on the graphic design minor. And then at some point along the way, they created a new major, which has changed names twice now. So I'm gonna use the old, old one, which I think is like very long. was like motion media design, some extremely long, so many characters. Really, really flowed. Yeah, really flowed.
Mack Garrison (03:29)
really setting y'all up for success when folks could name the major.
Kirsten (03:35)
But I remember talking to some folks and they were like, you know, it's like graphic design, but it moves, which also is like, yes, but no. This is early days, pioneer days of what we do now. But I took a few classes and I was like, oh, I like this. So that's kind of when I tapped into the motion design side of things. So I ended up double majoring. I spent five years there, which, you I loved every moment of it. I really did. You know, I'm still so close. I still get to work with so many people that I graduated with, that I was in class with, that
Mack Garrison (03:42)
Sure, right.
Nice.
Kirsten (04:05)
you know, friends of friends, so it's like, I love that part of it too, just seeing us all out there doing it, you know, just like succeeding. Good job all of us, high five. We're art kids that got jobs.
Mack Garrison (04:11)
Yeah.
Yeah, honestly, you're way better. My graduating class, I don't know if
half of them are even in my field, to be honest with you. So you're already off to a great start having peers that are still in here.
Kirsten (04:24)
See,
totally right. I know we're crushing it gang. We're crushing it. I will not say what year I graduated because I'm not trying to date myself but I know I already did it.
Mack Garrison (04:32)
Just by the fact that you're describing when motion graphics came out, know that you're
my age at least because I feel like I was a founding member of whatever they were calling motion graphics.
Kirsten (04:41)
Totally, whatever it was. I said
I'm not cool and I said I started at the beginning. Yes. I know I'm doing a really good job.
Mack Garrison (04:45)
Yeah, sell it really hard here, Kirsten.
Kirsten (04:52)
But no, so I was at SCAD and I did that, I graduated and I got an internship out in L.A. I knew that, so I grew up in South Jersey, I had interned in New York at Nicktoons, which was so freaking fun. Had a great time there. I feel like that's still like childhood dream check. I also did an internship with a small animation festival at the time called, was that even, my goodness, I'm gonna blank on the name. I'm blanking on it entirely.
Mack Garrison (05:04)
Have
Sure, yeah.
That's all right. Was it like it was
Kirsten (05:22)
Yeah,
Mack Garrison (05:22)
pre like F5 or something like that?
Kirsten (05:24)
it was like so yeah super super super tiny I want to say like Bill Plimpton was one of like the founding members of it like yeah, so But that was animation show the animation show they did a couple years So I entered with those guys super cool so many amazing Mike judge was one of the founders of it, too
Mack Garrison (05:30)
wow, nice.
nice, okay.
Fine, I love that.
Kirsten (05:43)
So great stuff there. So I'm like, you know what? I grew up Northeast. I've been in Savannah. I want to go out to California. I need to get to warmer weather. That was my goal the whole time. Just keep going south. And again, bang that hard right. We're not being a lawyer. We're going to be an artist. We're going to go to LA. So I go out there for my internship and I'm at Digital Kitchen, which at the time is, know, DK. They are making Emmy award winning show series titles. You know, we're talking six feet under.
Mack Garrison (05:52)
Nice.
Right.
Yeah.
Kirsten (06:11)
Was it true blood, like all that stuff. So LA office, I start working as an intern there as a designer. And I'm like, man, I hate this so much. Not DK, but designing. You know, because you're in school and you're creating and that's like, it's so cool. You know, you're doing these peer reviews and they're just like, no, like make what you're feeling. And then that's not the real world.
Mack Garrison (06:12)
Yeah.
Mmm. Sure, of course, but just like the grind. Yeah. Yeah.
no, there is production
timeline stuff has to get done, you know, and you're kind of in the real world of deadlines.
Kirsten (06:39)
There's brand colors,
there's typesetting, you know, it's like there's things that you just have to follow the rules. You can't be like, sorry AT &T, I actually don't like blue, so I'm just gonna not do that. You know, it's like...
Mack Garrison (06:49)
Yeah, right. actually don't want to work on this project. This one doesn't
sound that fun. It's like, okay.
Kirsten (06:54)
So yeah, just I you know, but I was at this amazing creative studio, you know at the time they had four different offices Chicago was the hub I was in LA they had Seattle they had New York They were doing so much cool stuff and they were doing new things and I was in a you know a working studio I feel like that's like the hardest step out of college, right? It's like getting your foot in that door to really see how this stuff is happening and so
I let that internship end. I think I did a good job. I did end, I got hired, not as a designer. I got a job.
Mack Garrison (07:25)
You got the job, which honestly coming out of school,
that's really what you're going for at the time.
Kirsten (07:29)
Yeah,
I was their studio manager for a few months before I went into production with them So that's when I actually started production was as a coordinator at digital kitchen and it was a combination of Right place right time there was a need they were starting to get into way more live-action interstitial work for AT &T at the time
you know, this really cool branded content. They would go out and do all these crazy things like with hosts and we'd be going to Sundance or they'd be going to the Bahamas to swim with sharks and do this behind the scenes there, like just wild stuff. And I was just like, how is this someone's job? Like what? Like what? But I also didn't know anything about production when I was at SCAD. just, you know, when I thought of producing, I thought of...
Mack Garrison (08:04)
You're like, did I win the lottery? This is the coolest gig ever. Yeah.
Kirsten (08:15)
Okay, you have to be making a film or TV series and you have to have money to do that, right? It's like you're bankrolling this, which isn't even, I think, still technically fully the case. You know, I didn't know that you produced commercials. I didn't know that you could do this other thing. So my eyes were really open to this whole other world inside of, you know, motion design, really animation effects.
And I was lucky because I had some really awesome folks there that needed the help. I'm very, very proactive human, still am, still try to be, but was asking questions. And I would do my studio manager stuff, but then I would say, hey, how can I help you? This is cool. How do I learn about this? How do I do this? And then I was doing it well. So they were giving me more of that. And then ultimately, one of my coworkers at the time made a kind of a...
Mack Garrison (08:42)
Mm.
Kirsten (09:04)
I guess on a plea, she spoke to the studio ahead of the time, the MD, and was like, hey, we kind of need this person. We're doing all this work. There's a ton flowing in. It's too much for me. She's, yeah, it went back for me. Exactly. It's like she's already doing it. We like her. Like, what do you say? So I kind of got to slide in and just get into production.
Mack Garrison (09:12)
Yeah, once a bat for you basically.
How fun, do you remember those early days? feel like, you know, talking about scat or going down to Ringling or some of these other schools, you talk to these students and there's always a sense I feel like of a worry of like imposter syndrome, like, gosh, I don't know what I'm doing. Like, am I going to mess up? You know, you're in this kind of new role. You didn't really have that much production experience, any production experience prior from that. How did that, how did that?
that kind of go in the early days? Did you lean on asking the folks around you a lot of questions? Were they more accepting? Like, look, we know you don't know what you're doing, but you're a good person, so we're gonna help teach you. How did that kind of initial interaction go?
Kirsten (09:58)
You know, I think it was a combination. It's so funny because I feel like the folks that I know who are producers, right, who have found this path, and they have all different backgrounds. You know, it's like no one's, I think no one's really been like, oh, I'm to go to school to do this one thing. But I think we all have similar traits in our lives and our personalities. So, you know, it's like I've always been very detail oriented. I've always, you know, taken for me to even just go grocery shopping. It's like a very thorough
Mack Garrison (10:14)
Right.
Kirsten (10:28)
note list of things. It's like, yes.
Mack Garrison (10:29)
There's a list. Are you the type of person that will arrange a list based on the aisles too to make
sure? Of course. Of course.
Kirsten (10:34)
It's categorized. Yes, absolutely.
100%. I got to have a strong flow through that store. You know, I got to get in, get out. I got to prioritize my time to get through and hit my deadline to get to my next store or to get home so my baby can nap at this point. yeah, so like, I feel like we all have these similar traits, right? So I did ask a ton of questions though, if I didn't know how to do something, because there aren't like payroll, booking talent, like things like this. It's just like, I could really mess something up and it's not.
Mack Garrison (10:40)
That's right.
Right.
yeah.
Kirsten (11:04)
worth it for me, you I don't think for anyone to try to solve that on your own. I think there are things for sure. It's like I could look up X or Y. I could look at an old call sheet and say this is how they do this. Look at an old pre-pro book and say, okay great, this is how they organize it. I'm gonna follow this because they have a system in place where, maybe this could be a better system at some point.
Mack Garrison (11:11)
Mm.
Sure.
Right.
Kirsten (11:27)
But
there's things that you can do by just paying attention and looking at those examples ahead. And then, yeah, asking the questions. Because ultimately, if I do it right the first time, it's easier for everyone. exactly. Yeah, because you don't.
Mack Garrison (11:38)
Right, you're saying of a plan of action to continue to follow and you're not having to self doubt yourself then in that instance. So it sounds like basically the word of wisdom
for anyone getting into a new gig, even if it feels like you're a little uncertain, just ask questions. And if you're in a good place, those folks should be supportive around you.
Kirsten (11:53)
Absolutely. It's, you know, it's, it's helping everyone, to teach you how to do it, how to do it correctly. And I say correctly, you know, loosely because everywhere is going to do a different too. So it's like, you know, the way that I learned to, cause also the thing with digital kitchen and that type of production was I was actually going from animation design and all that into live action production, something I had never done. never took a film class at SCAD. I had never been on a set. I don't think like that was my first like, wow. Okay. We are doing this for.
Mack Garrison (12:12)
yeah.
Kirsten (12:23)
or a commercial on TV. So there was a lot of learning. Eventually learned how to bid in that world too and how those rates and crew needs are different, even still, non-union, union, DGA, like the whole gamut. But yeah, so think just the questions, they're so important and we all ask.
Mack Garrison (12:25)
Let's try it.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
So it sounds like when you
were a DK, you had this really great support, know, folks who want to see you succeed, folks who were championing you, and that's gotta give you the confidence to feel like you know what you're doing. So you get in full time with them, it sounds like, right, someone goes to bat for you. What was the, was it a next step that led you over to Scholar? You know, how'd you end up over with them?
Kirsten (12:54)
Mm-hmm.
So I ended up being at DK for about a year and a half, you know, and I was coordinating that whole time. I think it was just a combination of seeing what else was out there. You know, just they, the company while I was there also had shifts. You know, that's a very normal thing. I know it can be scary coming out of school maybe and seeing, you know, you get into a studio, a large, small, an agency, brand, any of it, but there are a bunch of protocols and it's very natural for places to expand, to contract, to, you know, people to move
Mack Garrison (13:29)
Mm-hmm.
Kirsten (13:31)
on people to do that. some of that was starting to shift. They were downsizing a little bit. I had been there a beat. I liked what I was doing but wanted to also see what else was out there. So I did eventually end up kind of going freelance for a beat.
Mack Garrison (13:42)
Sure.
Nice.
Kirsten (13:47)
And I will say I prefer staff. have mad profs to the serial permalancers out there. I just, again, it's a production thing. think I love the structure of knowing my day so much. I just do better in it. And that also took me a minute to figure out. I'm glad I freelanced.
Mack Garrison (13:51)
Hahaha
Sure.
Yeah.
And was that, do think that's the big difference
just for folks who maybe are even considering moving freelance? What do you think was the big difference between a freelance producer versus in-house producer?
Kirsten (14:15)
I mean, I think you get to choose a lot more of what you are working on. It's like if you're on a staff.
You know, for many reasons. One, we know your skill set, right? To your point, our job, you my job is to find those opportunities for not just my creatives, but for the producers too. If someone has a really strong background and effects, but they've never done anything with live action and they really want to learn that, you know, I want to try to find a job that combines that so they can learn that and they can grow, you know, and they can ultimately become a better producer because they know more.
Mack Garrison (14:26)
Sure.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Love that.
Kirsten (14:50)
So yeah, I know, think it's just, it is important to offer that up. And I got totally lost in what we've been talking about there. But...
Mack Garrison (14:57)
it's fine. Well, I just sent you on a tangent because I was curious, know, because they're talking
about producers in-house versus freelance. And so, and so we were talking about, know, you were freelancing a bit, but ultimately it was like you liked being grounded in-house. You just, that was your preference. You recognize right away that you liked that structure. So it sounded like you moved on from being a freelance producer and one was looking specifically to get in-house.
Kirsten (15:03)
Yes.
Correct, yes, and I'm sorry I lost my own sauce there. But no, think yes, it's...
Mack Garrison (15:23)
Now I love this the sauce is an interesting thing look my job I'm gonna send you off
in orbit and then we'll just bring you back around for the goodies of course
Kirsten (15:29)
Thank you. Thank you. Reel me back in.
But yeah, I think it's that compo. It's being able to pick, you know, having a little bit more choice in what you're, again, depends on the studio, but ultimately, ideally having a bit more choice in what you're working on. And I think it's also just the community aspect of being a part of a studio. You know, it's like I've been a scholar for, I think, coming up on my 10th year and, that's to no fault. That's, how insane is that? 10 years? That's wild. Wild! But you know, it's like, that's for a reason. You know, it's like you
Mack Garrison (15:50)
That's amazing. Congratulations. That's no short feat, you know? That's wild.
Kirsten (15:59)
don't
you see people move around and it's all different things. It's growth, it's you know maybe just not a fit for how you are and operate culturally a bunch of stuff. New opportunities in general like to do something that you never thought you'd be able to do but see I think it's that combination there of the structure, the community, and then also just being able to kind of forge a bit more into your growth and where you want to go.
Mack Garrison (16:21)
I love
that and honestly, it's a good segue into a question I had for you. mean, so clearly with this background of freelance, in-house, and just the time and space that you've been in the industry, you know, and you've just seen a lot of change. There's been a lot of change in our industry, even in the short period of time. I'm curious, you know, as you look back kind of over this decade of experience or so, you know, what are you looking forward to? You know, what gets you excited about the future?
that we have for our industry and maybe where some points of concern that you have.
Kirsten (16:54)
That is such a good question. So Max sent me some questions ahead of time because he's a good person. It wasn't just like, surprise, here's questions. And I was like dang, this is going to be a tricky one. And here we are out the gate early on getting into it. is a really great question. you're right. I will say I do feel like.
Mack Garrison (16:59)
I did. Gotta get those good answers, you know?
That's right, warmed you up here for the first 10 minutes or so.
Kirsten (17:17)
maybe not the ground ground level of motion design of this industry of this community, but pretty early days into it. It was only just recently made a major when I was getting ready to graduate. Sure, there were studios out there for me to go to that were starting to implement these skills, but it wasn't what you're seeing now and what's out there in terms of our massive community and all these amazing studios across the world that are just specifically doing straight motion graphics versus mixed media design animation, all that stuff, matching it all together.
Mack Garrison (17:42)
Mm-hmm.
Kirsten (17:47)
You
know, I think what's exciting is all of those new voices. And I think especially too on the scholar side, it's funny, I was just talking to Krista who's so amazing, who's just my guiding light in marketing for all of us. We don't deserve her. But it's, we were just talking, I was like, I have 10 years as a scholar. It's like even at one studio, right? Like seeing.
Mack Garrison (18:02)
haha
Right.
Kirsten (18:09)
our voice change from fledgling, you know, they had been around right before I started, we're gonna be 15 this year, so, you know, which is also holy cow. But seeing how we then, you know, talk about ourselves shift so much in 10 years, right? So I think it is seeing all those new voices out there that are strong, amazing, powerful voices. I think it's seeing that community expand and support each other. You know, it is something where
Mack Garrison (18:16)
Wow, amazing.
Kirsten (18:38)
it there's all these niches right you can find your person it doesn't matter if you're introverted extroverted if you're into this one thing or all of these things it's like I feel like within this community you can find your counterparts and we are this band of misfits you know like we really are
Mack Garrison (18:41)
Yeah.
Yeah. a hundred percent. mean, I feel like motion design in and of
itself is kind of an amalgamation of so many different backgrounds. You know, there was this guy, I I was in school and his, I think his name was Edward Tufte. He was this graphic designer. He organized data sets basically. But one thing he mentioned that I really liked was this idea of a capital T theory. You like start in one place and then get to a point and there's a branch off, right? So maybe it's like, I love graphic design. interesting. Here's motion design.
Kirsten (19:02)
Bye!
Mack Garrison (19:20)
I love motion design. you know what? Maybe I'm a better producer. Let me produce or let me actually become a creative director. And so you start to connect all these teas into your point of just being a collection of misfits and all these different backgrounds. It's problem solvers, it's creatives in our industry is so very that you're right. You can always find another counterpart who's similar to you just because we are so diverse and have so many different backgrounds.
Kirsten (19:41)
100 % and I think even the diversity side of it, it's like, know, me starting out, like I don't think I knew, I knew of like two female creative directors who are still out there crushing it, you know, like, but it's like even that writer, it just, you know, in general, just like the folks that are kind of stepping up and have been, they, you know, they might've started out as designers, but now they've been doing this for 10, 15 years. They are the creative directors, you know, and it's like.
while there might not have been that same availability of mentorship, and that is a huge responsibility, right? It is to kind of guide and help and be there for that next generation of folks coming up. There's more of that now across the board. And not just with women either, just everything. And that is so amazing to see just such a blended community too. I don't know that you see that everywhere.
Mack Garrison (20:31)
Yes.
No, I
totally agree. I think it's, there's so many, to your point, we just have so many more people in this space than we ever had before, which is amazing, right? Cause now you've got all these different voices, all these different perspectives, which we desperately needed for a while because that variety is ultimately what makes the variety work so great. I bet there's a handful of people that are listening to this though, and they're saying like, yeah, that is all great, but it also means it's more of a crowded space than ever before. How the heck do I get into this? I'm curious from your perspective.
Kirsten (20:36)
So that's amazing.
Mack Garrison (21:03)
know, students are always asking, you know, how do I get on a studio's radar or how can I break into the industry? Thinking back to some of those early days when you first got in or even folks reaching out to you today as an EP, you know, what are some things that have stuck out or any advice you could give to someone who maybe wants to break into this space? Like what are some things that they could try or you're like, you know what, I think this is successful if you gave this a go.
Kirsten (21:30)
You know, well, I guess there's a couple of things, right? First and foremost, it's something like going to the Bash, right? Like that is a great way to connect with your, but for real though, it's like you want to, you want to meet up with working industry professionals across the board, right? Like we're all coming from different backgrounds. are staffers, we are freelancers, we are owning studios, we are ad studios, we are leadership, we are ground level. So it's, it's such a mix. So talk to people in real life.
Mack Garrison (21:36)
Hey, there we go. Good plug. Good plug.
Kirsten (21:57)
Ask them, meet them, make a connection, follow up on that connection. know, it's like having that FaceTime is so important. And I feel like, you know, those are the people even now that I still connect with more is like, I've had that one off about, this ramen spot in Austin's amazing, know, like random things. But I'm like, yes, Austin ramen. You know what I mean? It's like this weird, you know what I mean?
Mack Garrison (22:18)
Sure.
That's great. Austin Rommel, you're my go-to now for all illustration projects,
right?
Kirsten (22:25)
But it's
true, like you kind of, just, humanizes it so quickly. And I think that that is something that we just have to remember. It's, know, we're all seeking that no matter where we are at that level of connection. So the Bash is a great way. You know, if there's studios that you love, I mean, when I was first getting into it, again, I tried the internship thing, it worked out. think interning right when you're graduating can be a great gateway because then you are open, right? and internships are not a guarantee that you're going to get hired somewhere. You know, they are for both the intern to figure out.
do I like doing this? Do I like this studio? Does it make sense for me and who I am? And then for the studio to also think of those same things, you know, when it's not always going to be a match and that's totally fine, you know, it's part of it, you know.
But I think finding that internship opportunity out the gate, out of graduating or getting ready to graduate so that you kind of can get that foot in the door. I sent a bunch of cold, you know, even when I was in between stuff, like cold emails. I'm not a cold caller, but you know, it's like, and they weren't just like the same blanket template, you know, where you could tell the name. It's like, take a minute to like think about what you want to do because. Yeah.
Mack Garrison (23:18)
cold emails. Nice.
yeah, and we're all human. Like everyone loves like a pat on the back.
Like, I really love this piece of the project or I love what you did here. You know, I, yeah.
Kirsten (23:36)
clear and it's
It means you know who you're talking to, too. It's not just blanket like, hi, I have done this and I would like to do this. It's like, you're not a robot. So I think it seems like, no one's going to answer. I will say I do really try to answer when people email me. I will take time when I can to talk to people who are getting ready to graduate, have graduated. I would like to say I'm a pretty approachable person. I remember what it's like to not get a response and just like, it's something really hard.
Mack Garrison (24:05)
Sure. Yeah, it's
awful. It's like, look, I'm a human on the other end of this, right?
Kirsten (24:09)
Yeah,
and it's like, I can't answer every email ever, right? But it's like, I do try when I see that, when I can see that on the other side that they've tried. And a big thing too is like, know who you're reaching out to. If you are applying to a job, right? And it says send to jobs at whatever with this subject, follow the directions.
Mack Garrison (24:29)
sure, right, just the simple things.
Kirsten (24:30)
Just follow, don't
email everyone. Don't email PR jobs, the seven EP, just email jobs and put the subject in and put it, cause it's like, that is the first and spell the person's name right. Like I get a lot of Christians out there. Well.
Mack Garrison (24:35)
Ha ha.
yeah, look as, I bet as a Mack I get Mack, I get Mark, I've seen it all.
Kirsten (24:50)
And I know
I work with a Mack who I love who's an MAC, I'm a Collie, and I was typing, you were responding to say, hey, thanks, excited to chat. And I had the MAC and I was like, no Kirsten, wrong Mack, get that K in there. But it's true. It's like I get a lot of Kristens, I'll be honest. I don't respond to the emails that say, Kristen, because that's not my name. So was like, know, wrong direction.
Mack Garrison (24:54)
yeah.
Gotta get it.
Oh, a hundred percent, a hundred percent. I'm the same way. It's like, especially if it's, if it's,
know, especially on the new business stuff, I'll get people reaching out all the time, trying to sell me something, which I get, and I try to give everyone, uh, you know, the time of day, but it's like, if it looks, if it looks like it's just templatized, you just copy and paste it. You don't have the ability to spell my name right, or you're totally off in the market on what I even do. You know, it goes back to key takeaway, I think for anyone listening is authenticity. Just be genuine on however you're doing it and meeting in person still matters, especially
Kirsten (25:33)
Yep, exactly.
Mack Garrison (25:36)
in this digital world where I think we're all saturate with digital content, that in-person meeting is so important. know, one question I had for you, just as we were talking, I was thinking about this, is, you know, so interesting with a producer role. I remember I was a creative and I was an animator and I felt like I was pretty good. And then very quickly as I started to kind of grow, I was like, you know, there are better people at this than me.
And that's kind of when I think I started to consider taking on more of a producer and then eventually an EP role. Cause I was like, well, I'm good with clients. I'm good at managing time and getting stuff done. I'm curious from your perspective, who's now been producing for a while, you know, what are some of the key attributes attributes that make up a good producer or someone who's listening is trying to aspire to be an executive producer. What advice would you give them?
Kirsten (26:23)
So, I mean, that's a great one too. I would say, you know, the details, listening, communication, like the biggest part of my job is communicating, right? Being able to clearly communicate, being able to break down hard conversations.
having hard conversations too, especially EP role. It's like we get feedback sometimes or something might be going off the rails and being able to talk to your team and also talk to that client in a way that makes everyone still feel confident in what they're doing without completely ruining the mood to help pivot that shift is so, so important. Strong communication, just showing up and caring.
I'm sure we've all been there. You're on like a daily or a call and someone's just, you know, we all have bad days, right? It's like, you don't know what's going on in someone's life. You have no idea. It could just be whatever, but you know, just showing up and caring and wanting to be there goes so far and can really help shift the whole mood of that team for the day too. You know, just.
Mack Garrison (27:26)
because it is balance
because you're trying to navigate client relationships and creatives. So you're kind this middle ground. It's like, look, I got to protect our creative team, but I also got to get what we need to get done for the client and kind of being able to massage both those directions where appropriate is important.
Kirsten (27:40)
Yeah, no, a thousand percent. it's, think being able to read, you know, a really good producer, I think, and NEP at a production too, can read and adjust how they interact with someone, right? So it's like, depending on which of my creative directors I'm talking to, you know, I might have a different tone or approach or, you
just how I come to them with something because I know that's how they do better with receiving information. I know that they need to talk it out versus like, you know, okay, let's just get into this. Same with clients too. It's like, you know, I tend to be a very, very emotive email or I love an exclamation mark, a smile. Sometimes I'm like, here's the...
Mack Garrison (28:15)
Exclamation mark
period exclamation mark period right you got to the balance in there
Kirsten (28:19)
I'm like, let's pull it back. We've got
like four smile faces in here. Let's just like tone it down. But there's some people I talk to where it's like, that's just not how they want to talk. And so, you know, I, I mirror that, you know, I try to make myself as approachable to them in their process. And I think to your point of being genuine and authentic with that, I'm not muting down who I am, but I'm also allowing them the space to show them that I can meet them there. And I'm not going to necessarily like make them uncomfortable either with how, you know, being like, if they don't want that energy.
Mack Garrison (28:34)
Mm.
No, a hundred percent.
Kirsten (28:49)
I'm gonna stop.
Mack Garrison (28:50)
feel like it's one of those things that, and we were talking a little bit about this, think right before we started recording that, you know, the best practice for becoming a good producer is just to continually put yourself in those situations where you have to navigate it. There isn't always a go-to solution. And sometimes you have to improvise and come up with something and set a standard yourself because you're not sure the answer. And that's okay. I think all about producing the people who really know what they're doing air quotes is
just because they've been in the space for a long time and they've had those different experiences. So it's a mixture of kind of reaching out and talking to other folks, being comfortable, having uncomfortable conversations. How do you practice that? It's probably just going through it, all the different scenarios and just trying to get, like you mentioned earlier, internships or get in early at a place to kind of learn from the people around you.
Kirsten (29:36)
Yeah, I know. mean, that's the best way to do it is just get that actual experience. And I will say, too, it's like I'm a little...
As I'm like, I love staff. The one benefit back to freelance is like, pop it around to a few places. You can see how a bunch of places do it. You can see maybe I'm better in a boutique setting versus a larger setting. Maybe I actually want to go into feature animation and don't want to do commercials at all. But I will say it's like that is the benefit of freelancing is a bit more of that. Seeing a wider net of styles and approaches.
Yeah, I mean with producing, it's like there's no secret handbook. There's no, you know, it's like, there's days where, mean, there probably every day, honestly, I call, it's myself managing EP and I've got a senior producer and another EP that I work with who I just like, I adore. They are the best. could not exist without them.
Mack Garrison (30:14)
Right.
You gotta have those charrettes,
be able to talk it out and work through it. Like how would you handle this, you know?
Kirsten (30:28)
yeah, my peeps, are just
like, but the number of days that I will come to them as they're managing AP and say, hey, I made this real and I feel like it's super wrong. What am I doing? And they're like, did you think about this? Like, that's how it should be. You know, it's like I am I have expertises, but I'm trusting my team around me to and also, you know, rely on what they're great at or what they might be seeing that I'm not thinking about. So I think, you know, it doesn't mean just, you know, closer to the top that I don't
have people. I go to those around me still.
Mack Garrison (31:00)
Oh yeah. 100
% having that little community around you, having some core people. Honestly, even my wife, Molly, I talk to her all the time about things. She's not even in my industry, you know, but it's always just good to get opinions on various things. think something that our industry, you know, just thinking about opinions and making decisions, it's, it can be a stressful place. I mean, it is a stressful industry. Stuff needs to be turned around really quick. There's last minute asks, there's tight deadlines and big pressures and big deliverables.
And so something that I've seen creep up more and more often is burnout. I think everyone in the creative space, whether you're a student or have been in this industry for 10 plus years has navigated burnout at some point in their life. I'm curious from your perspective, as that's creeped up in your life, how do you navigate that? Any tricks that you have found when you feel like, I'm feeling a bit burned out.
Kirsten (31:36)
Mm.
I mean, you know, I think you totally, it exists everywhere, every industry, I think too. You know, the big one and where I notice it, boundaries, you know, I feel like that's the thing that has become more of something that we all talk about, is like boundaries and setting them.
But yeah, you this is a job. You have a life outside of this, right? So it's twofold. You know, I work at an amazing studio with amazing people, but I also need to make space. And for me to do my job well, I need to have that clear head space. So if I don't, I can feel myself maybe getting shorter, maybe not thinking things through, maybe making rash decisions. so stepping away for a minute, you know, taking a mental health day where I just read a book, trying to get outside and go
Mack Garrison (32:29)
Mmm.
Kirsten (32:40)
on a walk, having to find working hours, not saying that you email me after 6.30 and I'm going to kick you to the curb. But it's like really trying to uphold that and also trying to.
Mack Garrison (32:47)
Right
Kirsten (32:52)
to look out at that for other people too. So it's like a bad habit I was getting into, right? It's like, I would be like, okay, I'm trying to be on Slack from nine to six, right? And then I would, as I've reevaluated my boundaries with a new baby, cause that's a whole other fun journey. I had boundaries, I was doing really great. And then, know, Daisy came into the scene and was like, yo, what's up mom? I'm a toddler, my rules. And I was like, cool, cool, cool. I got this. But I'm currently actually trying to re-figure
Mack Garrison (33:01)
Sure.
then Daisy came in and it was like, yeah, that was it. That's right.
Kirsten (33:22)
what are the boundaries that I need to show up for her but also to show up for my studio and for my people. know, something I found myself getting into the habit of because I was kind of shifting.
how I was working just to do, know, it's like, I joke, she's like my elder baby. She goes to bed at like 630. I'm just like, what is your wife? Like you're not even getting blue plate special. But you know, it's like, we're working at that time. So I have to step away to do, you know, I do step away to do dinner and bath time and get her ready for bed. And I come back and I was finding myself sending these like slacks like later. And I'd be like, Kirsten, you're breaking the rule that you set for yourself. Like, why are you slacking people at 9 p.m.? That is just straight rude. So I've been trying to really remind myself so I can like get it out to schedule my slacks.
Mack Garrison (33:39)
my gosh, I love that.
Yeah.
Kirsten (34:04)
which is such like a simple silly thing to say out loud, But, or schedule my emails. But I'm really trying, yeah.
Mack Garrison (34:04)
Mmm.
But it helps everybody, not only is it helping you
temper expectations of what should be done in a day, but you're also alleviating your team members. Because as their manager or boss, if they're getting a ping from you, I'm sure you're like, they could be in the middle of dinner, they see a ping come through, do I need to go respond that? So that planning is helping them as well.
Kirsten (34:19)
Absolutely.
Yeah, it's exactly. I remember what that's like, too, being like, I probably should respond to this email. And I think that's the other thing, too, is like, I say it a lot to, I feel like, way too many people. deadlines are important, right? It's like, there are times when we are delivering a job. And it needs to go out that day, because that's the day we've all chosen. there are media buys, and there are things like that, right? If we've promised we're going to post, we need to do that. We need to follow through. I'm not saying you should just disregard all that, but.
Mack Garrison (34:46)
Alright.
Kirsten (34:55)
what we are doing, you know, I'm not out here saving lives. So if, if, know, that slack can get answered the next day, it's probably nothing that pressing. If it really was, I would call you, would text you, you know? So I think it is giving a little bit of, of grace to yourself. That's another thing I'm really working on right now is giving myself grace. I feel like I try to give grace to others and I'm trying to give myself a bit more grace this year.
Mack Garrison (35:08)
Ha ha ha.
Mm-mm.
I love that.
reminds me of yeah, it reminds me of like some, Brene Brown quote, right? Where it's like, I think it was daring to lead. Maybe she speaks about how, look, you're in the arena, you're doing best. You're showing up. You know, we are, we are our own best critic. Or sometimes we lean into what the critics are saying. When at the end of the day, it's like, look, you can only do so much. You're doing the best you can with the information you have and you're moving things forward. You know, perfection, hippest progress. I'm doing my best and we got to give each of ourselves a little bit more grace accordingly. So I think that's really well said.
Kirsten (35:24)
and not be as hard on myself.
Mm-hmm.
Thank
Mack Garrison (35:54)
Well, let's see, we're coming up here on time. Maybe we can leave it here on this last question, just thinking about, you know, for those that maybe haven't been familiar with you or scholars work until this conversation and thinking about the Bash coming up, what could they expect from your talk at the Bash? What do you, you have any early inklings of what you might be hitting on?
Kirsten (36:14)
I know that's another I'm like, I have a lot of ideas that I need to Condense into an idea. But no, I mean I want to talk about I Do want to talk about the importance of our community and the voices in our community, you know I do want to talk about things like mental health and boundaries and How you can't be successful unless you are helping yourself first You know, I want to talk about just that larger connection as a whole
Mack Garrison (36:20)
haha
Kirsten (36:43)
across what we all do and how inviting all that in, inviting all these different people and just makes us better. know, it's like we've been talking about the this being a more crowded space right now, right? And it's like, it's interesting to see these studios that do amazing work, even like kind of like reinventing how they do it, you know, like Tendril and Builders Club and Future Deluxe creating this like merge thing. Hit this or like, you know, buck with giant ant or residency. It's like, you know, I think that
Mack Garrison (37:00)
Mmm.
Yeah.
Kirsten (37:12)
even though we compete, I think it's like helping others. And in terms of what you're gonna get, I think this is a pretty good example. I am a human to default. feel like I'm hopefully slightly fun, but also like, I don't know, what I just saw energy. mean, Mack could see me talk once before and I just, I...
I don't know, this is just who I am. I'm trying to be, I just try to be a genuine, authentic human. I'm a little bit out there in a fun way, I hope. And, you know, I hope you guys
Mack Garrison (37:42)
All right. I think that about does it here with Kirsten. So glad that we got to talk today. We got to chalk it up and talk today. This has been so fun. So pumped to have you at the Dash Bash this summer. And if you haven't gotten a ticket yet,
What are you waiting for? Now's the time. You know how great Scholar is. You know how great Kirsten is. You know how great the Dash Bash is. Let's do it. Let's get hanging out.
Kirsten (38:01)
Thanks, Mack. I'm super excited. I can't wait to see you guys in June!
Michelle Higa Fox Interview
In this conversation, Mack Garrison interviews Michelle Higa-Fox, an Emmy award-winning artist and filmmaker, about her journey in the motion graphics and animation industry. They discuss the importance of community, early influences, navigating new technologies, innovative projects at BUCK, and the future of technology in creative spaces. Michelle shares insights on how to foster creativity and collaboration, the significance of learning through experimentation, and the skills that will remain relevant despite changing technologies.
Takeaways
Michelle Higa Fox is an Emmy award-winning artist and filmmaker.
Community plays a crucial role in the motion design space.
Early exposure to technology and creativity shaped Michelle's career.
Web design was a friendly entry point into the arts for Michelle.
Engaging with others accelerates the learning process.
Innovation thrives in collaborative environments.
Smaller experiments can lead to significant learning opportunities.
Character development is essential in storytelling across mediums.
Skills in user experience translate across different technologies.
Understanding one's learning style is key to personal growth.
Chapters
00:00Introduction to Michelle Higa-Fox
02:11The Importance of Community in Motion Design
05:17Early Influences and Family Background
07:08Navigating New Technologies and Learning
10:09Innovative Projects at Buck
15:34Creating Systems for Innovation
19:23The Future of Technology in Creative Spaces
Transcript:
Mack Garrison (00:00)
Hey, what's up y'all? Mack Garrison here, co-founder and director of content over at Dash Studio, and I am so excited to introduce y'all to Michelle Higa Fox, an Emmy award-winning artist and filmmaker who combines code-based visuals with handmade animation. With over 15 years of experience in motion graphics, animation, and experience design, her work has earned a Peabody Award, Art Directors Club Young Guns Award, and Best Music Video Award at South by Southwest. I'm impressed already, Michelle.
Michelle HIga Fox [BUCK] (00:28)
You
Mack Garrison (00:29)
In 2012, she founded Slanted Studios to develop commercial projects, music videos, and interactive art installations at the intersection of animation and emerging technology with clients including Netflix, Facebook, Twitter, Adult Swim, Coach, Nike, Samsung, Viacom, all the groups you want to work with and is now the current group creative director at BUCK. Michelle, thanks so much for hanging out with us and glad to introduce one of our Dash Bash speakers to our growing audience.
Michelle HIga Fox [BUCK] (00:45)
you
Thank you so much, Mack. It's a bit overwhelming to hear altogether. But I'm so excited to join y'all at Dash Bash. I can't tell you the number of people who have had the best time. I would say even a life-changing time, and that it really reminds them how going to Dash Bash captures a lot of the early feelings of motion graphics for all of us who were there in the late 90s, early 2000s. Great energy.
Mack Garrison (01:20)
Ugh, I'm gonna play that
on repeat. That's why I'm gonna fall asleep to it at night. Thank you so much. Yeah, I think, and I know you would agree just based on that comment, just the importance of getting together. The Motion Design Space is such an eclectic group of people with different backgrounds, different specialties who have found their way into this soup of an industry that's just got so much cool creative in it. And it's easy to forget, I think, sometimes with our day-to-day and client work.
Michelle HIga Fox [BUCK] (01:31)
Yes.
Mack Garrison (01:47)
just how great each of us are and sharing those stories and connecting. And so the bash was really born in a way to facilitate that. My business partner and I, we went to conferences over the years, always got so much out of it. And so it was a way for us to kind of bring it back to the community and also recognize that the industry has changed, that you don't necessarily have to be in one of these big markets, you can be in a smaller spot. So yeah, it's gonna be super fun and maybe a good place.
Michelle HIga Fox [BUCK] (02:05)
Hmm
Mack Garrison (02:11)
for us to start, Michelle, would just be talking a little bit about yourself. was on your website. I love this picture that you have up there. I think it's like you're described as your parents' living room with all the computers as a little kid. Could you describe that picture maybe to the audience and kind of what I'm seeing and why you chose, is that like a leading photo on your website?
Michelle HIga Fox [BUCK] (02:32)
absolutely. Hopefully it'll be inset in the video. Maybe we can refer to it. but, this is a kind of famous internal family photo. So, my family's Japanese Peruvian.
Mack Garrison (02:35)
Yeah, there we go. That's right.
Michelle HIga Fox [BUCK] (02:46)
And legendarily, the only photo for a long time that my father sent back to our family in Peru was this photo. Which was really more about the fact for anyone that hasn't seen the photo is that there are three large, very large floppy disk driven computers, two dot matrix printers. I think there's also an oscilloscope and then me as a little two year old in a bonnet in the foreground. Which I think conveyed.
Mack Garrison (02:53)
Nice.
Michelle HIga Fox [BUCK] (03:12)
how proud my family was of the life they were building in America. But yeah, I was only two years old, but my family was very, very into the entire computer industry as an early age. And I will also make a note in the background of the photo, there is a handmade macrame.
Mack Garrison (03:16)
I love it so much.
Michelle HIga Fox [BUCK] (03:32)
table hanging sort of object, which I believe my mom made by hand. So I think that's also a characteristic of the family.
Mack Garrison (03:33)
yes.
How cool.
I love that. And your
parents were both kind of engineer focused, right? Was it your mom was computer programmer and dad was a field engineer? that right?
Michelle HIga Fox [BUCK] (03:50)
Yes, so my mother...
learned computer programming in the 70s and Lima Parushi actually learned on punch cards, so by hand computer programming early days. And my father was in the early fiber optics days, so he was part of the cohort of engineers who first established all the fiber optic networks. But they were both incredibly creative. I mean, to do that type of problem solving, you also have to be creative, but they had a lot of craft outlets. So my father was also a carpenter. He always played
Mack Garrison (04:06)
Wow.
Michelle HIga Fox [BUCK] (04:23)
music, guitar, piano, and my mother. I have these memories of going with my mother to Michael's, the craft store. It's great, it's great. And she...
Mack Garrison (04:31)
Yeah, my god, I think I was literally just there last week. I still go to Michael's. It's great.
Michelle HIga Fox [BUCK] (04:37)
I feel like as a child she just went aisle by aisle and was like, I'm going to learn flower arranging. Now I'm going to learn cake decorating. And I have memories of like helping her cut out felt and puffy paint to make like the soccer banners for my brother's soccer team. So they were both pretty invested in those sort of things.
Mack Garrison (04:52)
How fun.
So I guess it was kind of a natural tendency for you growing up to kind of be around this engineer mind, this technical mind, but also it sounds like the arts were a really important part of the family as well. Was that kind of what started to push you and move you towards this kind of new technology creative space that you really operate in today?
Michelle HIga Fox [BUCK] (05:17)
I so. the web, email on the web came around mid 90s.
around the time I was in high school. So I remember as a hobby kind of teaching myself web design, but I had never thought I would go into the arts. So I think that's something that's lovely about motion graphics is it attracts people who are into mixed media. So there's a lot of different ways in, you get filmmakers, you get art illustrators who can draw, you get photographers. And so I...
I am still surprised and delighted that I get to touch animation every day because I actually didn't take any art classes in high school. didn't think... Yeah, all self-taught, but web design seemed like a friendly way in. But in retrospect, I look back and I remember there's another family legend.
Mack Garrison (06:00)
wow, kind of all self-taught a little bit.
Michelle HIga Fox [BUCK] (06:11)
where my parents wrote a program where if you type train into the keyboard, a little like ASCII text-based train would go across as a thing to delight me. And one day my mom came into the office and she found baby me on the chair just typing train over and over again, even though I didn't know how to read. I just knew the buttons to press to make the thing. So I think.
Mack Garrison (06:19)
that's fun.
That's amazing.
Michelle HIga Fox [BUCK] (06:38)
I think web design was a natural way in and also the start of really enjoying spaces that felt new. So while I know sometimes things that are new absolutely can feel intimidating, the flip side of that is that...
there is not necessarily a structured or right way to do it yet. So it actually invites experimentation and it evens, in my mind, it evens the playing field and it encourages play.
Mack Garrison (06:59)
Mm.
I love that. And I think, you know, it's interesting as someone who's always had a fascination with the intersection of technology and design. It really does feel like it's on the forefront of like what's next because to what you just said, there's not really that clear path. I think it also makes it intimidating to get into like, you know, anything, anything new, you don't know, you're never good at it right away. And as designers,
and creators, think we have a certain bit of perfectionism already. It's like, I know how to use this tool. I can make it look good here, but to try something else, it's just in a space I don't know. Do have any advice for folks listening who might be considering, like, I want to try something? Like, where do you begin?
Michelle HIga Fox [BUCK] (07:49)
Mmm. Yes, especially in new areas. Where do you begin? I think whenever I'm thinking about almost even trying a new hobby
or a new medium or something, I actually usually start by trying to see if there's a community there. especially now how learning has changed so much in the last couple decades. Like, are there resources? Are there videos I can watch? But even more so, are there local meetup groups? Is there a discord or a slack? Because for me, when I'm thinking about a new technology or something I'm interested in, like I go where the people are because
I find I learn so much faster instead of trying to, because sometimes I don't even have the language for knowing what I want. so, yeah, so it's like, if I'm, you know, learning compositing, but I don't even have the language to describe like what it is about the lighting that doesn't look right. I can't look it up. But if I'm talking to another person,
Mack Garrison (08:38)
Right what you're referring to or what you're trying to achieve. It's like I want this thing, you know
Michelle HIga Fox [BUCK] (09:00)
It both makes it easier for me to use my own language in where I'm at and what I'm excited about, but then also whenever you're talking to another person, inevitably if they're passionate about it, then they're gonna tell you what they're excited about, which then excites you even more. So I just tend to go where the people are.
Mack Garrison (09:17)
Wow, I love that. Well, and it's
a good reminder that I think it's especially in this post-COVID world of being decentralized, working in different places, it's kind of easy to get caught up in your own little silo. You're doing the same thing day in and day out, and sure, you may be good at it, but it's a reminder like, dang, I should reconnect with other people because that's how we're learning from one another. And I imagine that's probably what's so exciting about working at a company like BUCK that is this, you know,
global powerhouse when it comes to creative and tech. With that job and all these people that you work around constantly, I'm curious, there's so many projects that I'm sure you've worked on that you're proud of. Is there one that maybe sticks out recently or rises above all the rest that was just like either particularly challenging or particularly rewarding that's just like, I loved how this turned out?
Michelle HIga Fox [BUCK] (10:09)
I so part of the reason I was so so so excited to come to BUCK was obviously the level of design and animation is very high and you're working with just
these artists with these amazing minds, they're creating visuals you couldn't have imagined. But I was really excited for some of these artists to get to work in a way they haven't before. So it's like, what happens if we take your art and all of a sudden it's interactive and you can talk to it or you can actually play with it and it pushes back? And so a lot of the juice for me at BUCK has been trying to create the safe space where people can see their work in a new way.
think some of the most satisfying work has been doing augmented reality work, virtual reality work, AI adjacent work.
but specifically with teams who have never gotten to do this before. And simultaneously, we've brought in a lot of amazing talent who is experienced first, but maybe they haven't gotten to work with illustrators or stop motion animators or sell artists before. So then they're actually getting to realize what they know in a different way that they haven't. And I think maybe a culmination of this was we...
have an Asian Pacific employee resource group at BUCK and I think one of the really
gratifying collaborations I've gotten to do is for the Lunar New Year a couple years ago, we did AR filters and it was all with artists who had never done an AR face filter before and it was a really great entry for them to try that out for the first time. And then that kind of morphed into a group art show that we curated and collaborated last year, which was really gratifying. Again, to have something in real life, everyone gets to have physical art hanging on the wall that just people
in Brooklyn get to see who might not know anything about BUCK, but then the art that was there was flown in from all over the world because there were LA artists, there were Sydney artists, everyone getting to contribute. And the mediums were also really far-ranging. So there was Needlepoint, there were digital painting posters, there were films, there was like resograph animation. And so just collaboration, I would say.
Mack Garrison (12:32)
cool.
Well, it's so interesting to me
about that and elementally I've experienced it on a smaller level where like in simplest form, you know, if you're an animator and you're designing something for animation, you're making it easier for yourself, right? You're like, I'm gonna design it this way because I wanna animate it this way. So that'll be easier. But if you're an illustrator designed for an animator, sometimes you might create something that's wild or intricate and the animator would be like, dang, I have no idea how I'm gonna animate this. And it challenges them, right? To figure it out.
Michelle HIga Fox [BUCK] (12:47)
Right.
Yeah.
Mack Garrison (13:01)
And I imagine the tech is the same way. Someone who's in the AR space, like, don't know what I'm supposed to do here. I like this, so let me try that out. It kind of pushes the tech maybe in a place that it hasn't typically gone. Would you say that's pretty accurate?
Michelle HIga Fox [BUCK] (13:14)
Yes, definitely. think that's one thing that I've learned over the years is the work always ends up being the best if instead of saying like, you can't do this, you can't do this, you can't do this. It's more focusing on opportunities like what can you do or relaying to the artist or the team member to be like, hey, you're here for a reason. I think that's another thing is when people are doing something new, a lot of times
they're like, why am I here? Or like, I'm kind of excited to be here, but I'm kind of scared this might be kicking in my imposter syndrome. And so I think what we try to do is make sure people understand, like, no, you're absolutely here for a reason, and it's actually super exciting that you're here. And like, this is what we want to bring to the table. Like, don't worry.
we're not going to let you walk out on a plank and not tell you. But then I think it's also creating an environment for collaboration then also. So it doesn't feel like things are getting known. It's more like they're always just getting steered towards a new thing that we probably wouldn't have made, anyone on the team would have made as an individual. We're creating something new that was only feasible because it was this team of people land.
Mack Garrison (14:10)
Sure.
Hmm.
Michelle HIga Fox [BUCK] (14:36)
in a certain spot. Yeah.
Mack Garrison (14:37)
It sounds like a conductor in a symphony, honestly. You know, as creative director or a director, it's like you have this focus of kind of generally where things need to be and what some core constraints are that are maybe inflexible. And as the, as the player, the musician and the creator, you're unsure of how to get there, but it's a conductor like, look, keep doing this, or I love what you're doing here. Let's, let's pair you up with these flutes or the brass or whatever it is. And you're kind of in concert together and
Michelle HIga Fox [BUCK] (15:02)
Yeah.
Mack Garrison (15:05)
I just love that. Maybe this is a good question that stems off of it. Let's say, you know, let's say it's a smaller studio like Dash or someone else similar. We're trying to create some sort of system around innovation. You we hear about all this change. We want to get into innovation. want to try something. Have you found that there's like a good place to start or even broader thinking that helps kind of create systems around things that are a bit abstract and unknown?
Michelle HIga Fox [BUCK] (15:34)
So I'm a big believer in sprints and making. I am a huge believer in actually taking something from concept through execution, through posting it on the internet. There are so many steps and parts of it that you don't realize that you learn actually by doing that are really important.
And so for me, I always like to identify a target like, hey, we've never done.
a postcard that we could send out that also has an augmented reality overlay. So we actually did this for the Adobe Max talk because Adobe now has a software package called Arrow that's part of the creative suite and they make it super easy to make a postcard that then you can like lift up and see a 3D model that you can actually like hold and twist. But that's a great example of something where you're like, I don't know how to make that. But you could probably, if you set aside
Mack Garrison (16:33)
Sure.
Michelle HIga Fox [BUCK] (16:37)
a week, I would say one to two weeks is a small studio because you're trying to balance this with work or if you're an individual maybe you devote a couple weekends but you identify something and you actually try it out. And kind of starting small I think part of it and this was something that was learned over time many many years I think when I was younger I always identified as my
innovation experiments, actually something that was like gigantic and it was only in retrospect that I realized I was like, I shouldn't have started with a 10 minute short film as my goal. I probably should have started with a 15 second looping gif as my goal. And so I think knowing that there's these smaller bite sized experiments to dip your toes in.
Mack Garrison (17:11)
yeah, right.
Michelle HIga Fox [BUCK] (17:23)
is really great. And sorry, I'm keeping going, but I think I first heard this on an old Grayscale Gorilla podcast, but he had mentioned this experiment where I think they divided a class in half and one half they asked them to make.
as many perfect pots as possible, like throw as many perfect clay pots as possible. And then the second one, they just asked them like throw as many as possible. It's just a volume game. And then after five hours, they went back and they found that the half of the class that had just been instructed to do as many as possible, even though there were more that were not quote unquote perfect.
they created more pots that were exactly like the model than the people who were instructed to do perfect, something perfect. So I resonate a lot with that story where you don't have to show everything you make publicly, but the most important thing is to learn to keep making and just keep making as a practice.
Mack Garrison (18:26)
I love that so much. It's
this idea of basically, know, perfection inhibits progress. Like you've got to just keep moving, keep kind of taking one step forward on it. I feel like I might've heard that study as well too, which is really interesting. Also shout out for anyone looking for TV, The Great Pottery Throwdown, if you like, The Great British Bake Off. I'm telling you, my wife and I have just been crushing that recently. It's the next one up from The Great British Bake Off, but it's really great. I love that.
Michelle HIga Fox [BUCK] (18:32)
Yeah.
Yeah
Mack Garrison (18:53)
You know, another question I think a lot of folks have is tech is just changing so quickly. So there's also this fear I think people have where you learn something new, you invest this time and energy into it only for it to move or transition or be somewhere else. And maybe it's not invoke like it used to be. Just from your perspective and the stuff that BUCK is focusing on, do you think there's a particular area or kind of new tech, VR, AR, some of this stuff in AI that feels like it might be
Michelle HIga Fox [BUCK] (18:59)
Mm-hmm.
Mack Garrison (19:23)
a bit long lasting. Like is there a focus y'all have or like yeah we think that this area is probably going to be something in the future based on data or information we've gotten as a bigger company.
Michelle HIga Fox [BUCK] (19:35)
Yeah, I think always the underlying things to focus on are the skills that translate no matter what. So good character development, understanding how to convey a character quickly. It doesn't necessarily matter if the text shifts, like that storytelling.
holds through no matter what. And it's interesting because BUCK did a lot. We were actually foundational partners with the Spark AR platform, which is like those Instagram face filters. When those first popped off, that was BUCK. And Spark actually was sun, as a platform, was sunsetted earlier this month. So it's wild to me that there is this entire platform.
Mack Garrison (20:05)
yeah, that's right.
Michelle HIga Fox [BUCK] (20:18)
where all these creators were making their living in entire freelance culture and now they're having to pivot. But what's interesting is it also provided a way that a lot more people could learn user experience and could learn the principles of augmented reality. And like, how do we put design elements overlaid with physical space? Like, what are the rules? What makes for a good experience? That still translates into VR. And we've seen, know, Helena Dong
as
an amazing example, she's a senior ADF buck right now. She started in Spark but then was helping direct VR experiences and larger AR experiences. So I think the skills can still translate and I would say I don't know if VR as we know it now, who knows if it will continue or AR as we know it now where you're always holding up a device, but I think if you look longer
10, 15 years in the future, some sort of persistent digital layer is probably gonna hold. But there's also a world where it's like the tech that's going to allow us to experience that doesn't exist yet. So it's you're almost concepting about, hey, what are the skills and world building and pipeline understanding we're gonna need actually for the thing after the thing after the thing we have now?
Mack Garrison (21:22)
Mm-hmm.
I love that. It's also, it's building problem solving skills, right? At a foundational level, it's yes, this tech might change or evolve, but if you're figuring out how to navigate something new, getting comfortable in what we talked about before we even hopped on the podcast, like the deep end of the pool where you can't quite stand, but you're kind of navigating comfortability there, then you're basically setting yourself up for success in the future, because you can evolve as the tech evolves.
Michelle HIga Fox [BUCK] (21:49)
Mm-hmm.
Totally. I actually think one thing about learning to...
learning new technology is you learn yourself. Like how do I learn best? Right? When we onboard new artists at BUCK, a lot of the onboarding decks have this one slide at the end, which is almost like, what's your learning style? Do you like one-on-ones? Do you like materials you download at your own time? Do you like lecture series? Do you like references? Because people learn in different ways. So by constantly learning, you get to learn how you like to learn. And that is probably the most
important skill.
Mack Garrison (22:47)
100%. You gotta know where you're gonna be able to succeed, right? You can't try to force something down that's not the right fit. I love that so much.
Michelle HIga Fox [BUCK] (22:49)
Yeah.
Yeah, and also like learning what helps you navigate uncertainty. I think that's something a lot of the artists in, we call it the experience group at BUCK, it's like our whole thing is like, Like uncertainty is table stakes here. And so we're just helping each other and helping our clients like understand how to navigate that uncertainty.
Mack Garrison (23:22)
I love it so much.
Michelle Higa Fox, she's the group creative director over a buck doing some really smart things and really creative stuff. If you want to come see Michelle and you want to come have a great experience at the Dash Bash, June 11th through 13th, 2025, we're hanging out in Raleigh, North Carolina this summer. Two days of great speaker series, of great hangouts to connect with some of the best in the industry. Hope you can make it. Hope you can join. If you haven't got your tickets, come grab them, come see Michelle and we can't wait to hang out with you. Thanks so much for the
Michelle HIga Fox [BUCK] (23:25)
Hahaha
Hey.
Mack Garrison (23:51)
brief and quick intro. feel like I could pull this out way more, Michelle, but we're just going to tease them. everyone's going to have to come. Everyone's got to come see you at the bash. We're going to hang. Thanks so
Michelle HIga Fox [BUCK] (23:56)
Okay, excited. We're gonna hang. Everybody come hang.
Community
Before dash, it was just Mack & Cory. Two animators trying to make some cool stuff in an industry built around speed and efficiency. Cory and I clicked immediately. He was a fantastic 3d animator with a warm personality. Self taught and organized, Cory was the ideal creative to receive a project file from. On the other side of that coin, was me - a 2d animator fresh out of design school, full of ideas and apparently way too many pre-comps in my Ae files. We were both empathetic creatives who stayed late, did a solid for a client, or got a project manager out of a bind. We cared. About the work and the people we worked with.
But, after five years of projects at an agency that was more concerned about how much we could create vs how much care we put in the creative, we were feeling burned out.
We needed a change. And the good news for us was that the industry needed a change too. Clients were becoming more accessible just like the applications we were using and the idea of starting a boutique studio didn’t feel as far-fetched once we saw the success of others.
So Cory and I decided to follow suit. No business background. No real training. Just two guys who thought things could be done a little differently. Two creatives who believed in a work-life balance. Who believed that when love and sweat are poured into a project, less clients yielded bigger results. Two creatives who knew those results came from working in teams, sharing ideas, and collaborating. That’s why two creatives quickly turned to four, then eight, and in a blink of an eye, it wasn’t even about numbers anymore, it was just about the people.
The motion design industry has been awkwardly finding its place over the years. Navigating from infancy, into its adolescence, and in my opinion, finally into who it’s supposed to become - the next leader in the creative space. The motion design industry is feeling confident and if anyone wants to hire and retain talent, you have to be a people first organization.
Each year dash has a word or phrase we try to build around, and for 2022 its “purpose and intention.” We’re not growing just to grow. It’s not about hitting a specific number. We want to make better work with great people. A late, great friend of ours once said that he loved dash because in his words “there is the day you’re born and the day you die, what happens in between is the dash.”
Before dash it was Mack and Cory, now it’s a team.
Mack Garrison
Director of Content