Kirsten Noll Interview
Mack Garrison interviews Kirsten Knoll, an executive producer at Scholar, who shares her journey from a young artist to a successful producer in the motion design industry. Kirsten discusses her educational background, early career experiences, and the importance of community and mental health in the creative field. She offers valuable insights for aspiring creatives on breaking into the industry, the differences between freelancing and in-house production, and the key attributes of a successful producer. The conversation also touches on the challenges of burnout and the significance of setting boundaries in a demanding industry.
Takeaways
Kirsten Knoll is an executive producer at Scholar with a diverse background in animation and design.
She emphasizes the importance of community and support in the creative industry.
Kirsten's journey includes a transition from design to production, highlighting the need for adaptability.
Asking questions and seeking help is crucial for success in the early stages of a career.
Freelancing offers exposure to different styles and approaches, but in-house work provides structure.
The motion design industry has evolved significantly, with more voices and opportunities than ever before.
Networking and building relationships are essential for breaking into the industry.
Successful producers must possess strong communication skills and the ability to navigate difficult conversations.
Setting boundaries and managing stress are vital for preventing burnout in the creative field.
Kirsten plans to discuss mental health and community support at the Dash Bash.
Chapters
00:00Introduction to Kirsten Knoll and Her Journey
03:10Early Experiences and Education in Animation
05:55Transitioning from Design to Production
09:04Navigating Early Career Challenges
11:53Freelancing vs. In-House Production
14:56Reflections on a Decade in the Industry
16:54The Evolution of Motion Design
21:03Breaking into the Industry
26:01Key Attributes of a Producer
30:58Navigating Burnout and Setting Boundaries
35:54Community and Authenticity in the Industry
38:03New Chapter
Transcript:
Mack Garrison (00:00)
Hey, what's up y'all? Mack Garrison here with Dash Studio and we've got another round of speaker interviews for the Dash Bash and I'm joined by Kirsten Knoll. Kirsten is a Los Angeles based managing executive producer, heading up the award winning creative production studio Scholar with extensive experience working with top tier industry defining brands. She's passionate about design driven, excuse me, design driven and multidisciplinary narratives. Her diverse portfolio has brought her around the world from Eastern Europe to Central America.
with production expertise in the full gamut of pipelines, including live action, design, animation, and VFX. What does Kirsten not do? Welcome to the show, Kirsten. So glad to have you here. Of course, I don't even know if this is a podcast, it's a vidcast. Some people were listening, some people were watching, but yeah, super pumped to have you here. The amazing work that you all do at Scholar. We're so pumped to have you at the Bash to jump into this.
Kirsten (00:39)
Thank you for having me back!
Thank you, thank you. I will keep this here and say I'm not cool, so I don't know what to call it either. And that's my initial plug for why you should come and see me is I'm super not
Mack Garrison (00:57)
Hahaha
Kirsten (01:02)
saying, hi. So I'm not cool, I'm not hip, I know this about myself. No, I have no idea what to call it. I feel like someone will.
Mack Garrison (01:02)
Come see me talk, I'm not very cool.
Well, I love it. mean,
honestly, we're all kind of a little unhip and kind of nerdy to be in the creative and motion design animation space anyway. You need to be a little quirky. So I think honestly, it's apropos and fitting for us. yeah, maybe we can just jump in it right off the bat. I'd love for you to give a little bit of background on kind of how you got into this space. I'm always curious what are some of folks earliest animation memories, production memories and kind of how you got into this space.
Kirsten (01:18)
true.
It's true.
So that's a great, great question to kick it in with. So let's see, I am an artist by trade. I've always been into art ever since I was little. I feel like I did all the things to be fair, music, dance, drawing, all of it, my poor mother running me everywhere.
Mack Garrison (01:54)
running you everywhere, always going to the store buying different things
Kirsten (01:57)
Exactly,
Mack Garrison (01:57)
basically.
Kirsten (01:57)
just she's like, please, please stop. Not really. She's like very, both my parents, very encouraging of the arts. My sister is also an artist, a producer as well. So I feel like that's the constant question too, is like, how did we end up with two producers? No one else in our family has taken a creative path. Like it's like, have like, know, attorneys and that type of thing. So think that we're all just like, we took a hard left.
Mack Garrison (02:10)
Hahaha
that's so funny. Does the family
at least understand what producing is at this point? Like, have you had enough Thanksgivings that they get it? Okay, that's great.
Kirsten (02:23)
Yes. Yes, they
do for the most part. My mom's pretty good, especially my mom about, you no, this is actually what she did. And this is what she made very, very proud to always texting me, did you make this one? And I'm like, yeah, mom, I did, I did. Or no, no, we didn't. And then she's like, well.
Mack Garrison (02:38)
You're like, we actually lost that bed,
Mom. Thank you.
Kirsten (02:39)
And she's like,
well, it was done well. And I'm like, yeah, OK, cool, rub it in. But no, so I went to art school. I went to SCAD in Savannah, Georgia. And I loved it. When I first started up at SCAD, I wasn't sure what I was going to major in. I was really into graphic design. And I've always loved animation. So I ended up, think it's like by your end of your first year, you have to pick your major. And so I ended up doing animation. Traditional 2D cell animation was what I decided I wanted to do with my life.
And then as I was there, I think I at one point added on the graphic design minor. And then at some point along the way, they created a new major, which has changed names twice now. So I'm gonna use the old, old one, which I think is like very long. was like motion media design, some extremely long, so many characters. Really, really flowed. Yeah, really flowed.
Mack Garrison (03:29)
really setting y'all up for success when folks could name the major.
Kirsten (03:35)
But I remember talking to some folks and they were like, you know, it's like graphic design, but it moves, which also is like, yes, but no. This is early days, pioneer days of what we do now. But I took a few classes and I was like, oh, I like this. So that's kind of when I tapped into the motion design side of things. So I ended up double majoring. I spent five years there, which, you I loved every moment of it. I really did. You know, I'm still so close. I still get to work with so many people that I graduated with, that I was in class with, that
Mack Garrison (03:42)
Sure, right.
Nice.
Kirsten (04:05)
you know, friends of friends, so it's like, I love that part of it too, just seeing us all out there doing it, you know, just like succeeding. Good job all of us, high five. We're art kids that got jobs.
Mack Garrison (04:11)
Yeah.
Yeah, honestly, you're way better. My graduating class, I don't know if
half of them are even in my field, to be honest with you. So you're already off to a great start having peers that are still in here.
Kirsten (04:24)
See,
totally right. I know we're crushing it gang. We're crushing it. I will not say what year I graduated because I'm not trying to date myself but I know I already did it.
Mack Garrison (04:32)
Just by the fact that you're describing when motion graphics came out, know that you're
my age at least because I feel like I was a founding member of whatever they were calling motion graphics.
Kirsten (04:41)
Totally, whatever it was. I said
I'm not cool and I said I started at the beginning. Yes. I know I'm doing a really good job.
Mack Garrison (04:45)
Yeah, sell it really hard here, Kirsten.
Kirsten (04:52)
But no, so I was at SCAD and I did that, I graduated and I got an internship out in L.A. I knew that, so I grew up in South Jersey, I had interned in New York at Nicktoons, which was so freaking fun. Had a great time there. I feel like that's still like childhood dream check. I also did an internship with a small animation festival at the time called, was that even, my goodness, I'm gonna blank on the name. I'm blanking on it entirely.
Mack Garrison (05:04)
Have
Sure, yeah.
That's all right. Was it like it was
Kirsten (05:22)
Yeah,
Mack Garrison (05:22)
pre like F5 or something like that?
Kirsten (05:24)
it was like so yeah super super super tiny I want to say like Bill Plimpton was one of like the founding members of it like yeah, so But that was animation show the animation show they did a couple years So I entered with those guys super cool so many amazing Mike judge was one of the founders of it, too
Mack Garrison (05:30)
wow, nice.
nice, okay.
Fine, I love that.
Kirsten (05:43)
So great stuff there. So I'm like, you know what? I grew up Northeast. I've been in Savannah. I want to go out to California. I need to get to warmer weather. That was my goal the whole time. Just keep going south. And again, bang that hard right. We're not being a lawyer. We're going to be an artist. We're going to go to LA. So I go out there for my internship and I'm at Digital Kitchen, which at the time is, know, DK. They are making Emmy award winning show series titles. You know, we're talking six feet under.
Mack Garrison (05:52)
Nice.
Right.
Yeah.
Kirsten (06:11)
Was it true blood, like all that stuff. So LA office, I start working as an intern there as a designer. And I'm like, man, I hate this so much. Not DK, but designing. You know, because you're in school and you're creating and that's like, it's so cool. You know, you're doing these peer reviews and they're just like, no, like make what you're feeling. And then that's not the real world.
Mack Garrison (06:12)
Yeah.
Mmm. Sure, of course, but just like the grind. Yeah. Yeah.
no, there is production
timeline stuff has to get done, you know, and you're kind of in the real world of deadlines.
Kirsten (06:39)
There's brand colors,
there's typesetting, you know, it's like there's things that you just have to follow the rules. You can't be like, sorry AT &T, I actually don't like blue, so I'm just gonna not do that. You know, it's like...
Mack Garrison (06:49)
Yeah, right. actually don't want to work on this project. This one doesn't
sound that fun. It's like, okay.
Kirsten (06:54)
So yeah, just I you know, but I was at this amazing creative studio, you know at the time they had four different offices Chicago was the hub I was in LA they had Seattle they had New York They were doing so much cool stuff and they were doing new things and I was in a you know a working studio I feel like that's like the hardest step out of college, right? It's like getting your foot in that door to really see how this stuff is happening and so
I let that internship end. I think I did a good job. I did end, I got hired, not as a designer. I got a job.
Mack Garrison (07:25)
You got the job, which honestly coming out of school,
that's really what you're going for at the time.
Kirsten (07:29)
Yeah,
I was their studio manager for a few months before I went into production with them So that's when I actually started production was as a coordinator at digital kitchen and it was a combination of Right place right time there was a need they were starting to get into way more live-action interstitial work for AT &T at the time
you know, this really cool branded content. They would go out and do all these crazy things like with hosts and we'd be going to Sundance or they'd be going to the Bahamas to swim with sharks and do this behind the scenes there, like just wild stuff. And I was just like, how is this someone's job? Like what? Like what? But I also didn't know anything about production when I was at SCAD. just, you know, when I thought of producing, I thought of...
Mack Garrison (08:04)
You're like, did I win the lottery? This is the coolest gig ever. Yeah.
Kirsten (08:15)
Okay, you have to be making a film or TV series and you have to have money to do that, right? It's like you're bankrolling this, which isn't even, I think, still technically fully the case. You know, I didn't know that you produced commercials. I didn't know that you could do this other thing. So my eyes were really open to this whole other world inside of, you know, motion design, really animation effects.
And I was lucky because I had some really awesome folks there that needed the help. I'm very, very proactive human, still am, still try to be, but was asking questions. And I would do my studio manager stuff, but then I would say, hey, how can I help you? This is cool. How do I learn about this? How do I do this? And then I was doing it well. So they were giving me more of that. And then ultimately, one of my coworkers at the time made a kind of a...
Mack Garrison (08:42)
Mm.
Kirsten (09:04)
I guess on a plea, she spoke to the studio ahead of the time, the MD, and was like, hey, we kind of need this person. We're doing all this work. There's a ton flowing in. It's too much for me. She's, yeah, it went back for me. Exactly. It's like she's already doing it. We like her. Like, what do you say? So I kind of got to slide in and just get into production.
Mack Garrison (09:12)
Yeah, once a bat for you basically.
How fun, do you remember those early days? feel like, you know, talking about scat or going down to Ringling or some of these other schools, you talk to these students and there's always a sense I feel like of a worry of like imposter syndrome, like, gosh, I don't know what I'm doing. Like, am I going to mess up? You know, you're in this kind of new role. You didn't really have that much production experience, any production experience prior from that. How did that, how did that?
that kind of go in the early days? Did you lean on asking the folks around you a lot of questions? Were they more accepting? Like, look, we know you don't know what you're doing, but you're a good person, so we're gonna help teach you. How did that kind of initial interaction go?
Kirsten (09:58)
You know, I think it was a combination. It's so funny because I feel like the folks that I know who are producers, right, who have found this path, and they have all different backgrounds. You know, it's like no one's, I think no one's really been like, oh, I'm to go to school to do this one thing. But I think we all have similar traits in our lives and our personalities. So, you know, it's like I've always been very detail oriented. I've always, you know, taken for me to even just go grocery shopping. It's like a very thorough
Mack Garrison (10:14)
Right.
Kirsten (10:28)
note list of things. It's like, yes.
Mack Garrison (10:29)
There's a list. Are you the type of person that will arrange a list based on the aisles too to make
sure? Of course. Of course.
Kirsten (10:34)
It's categorized. Yes, absolutely.
100%. I got to have a strong flow through that store. You know, I got to get in, get out. I got to prioritize my time to get through and hit my deadline to get to my next store or to get home so my baby can nap at this point. yeah, so like, I feel like we all have these similar traits, right? So I did ask a ton of questions though, if I didn't know how to do something, because there aren't like payroll, booking talent, like things like this. It's just like, I could really mess something up and it's not.
Mack Garrison (10:40)
That's right.
Right.
yeah.
Kirsten (11:04)
worth it for me, you I don't think for anyone to try to solve that on your own. I think there are things for sure. It's like I could look up X or Y. I could look at an old call sheet and say this is how they do this. Look at an old pre-pro book and say, okay great, this is how they organize it. I'm gonna follow this because they have a system in place where, maybe this could be a better system at some point.
Mack Garrison (11:11)
Mm.
Sure.
Right.
Kirsten (11:27)
But
there's things that you can do by just paying attention and looking at those examples ahead. And then, yeah, asking the questions. Because ultimately, if I do it right the first time, it's easier for everyone. exactly. Yeah, because you don't.
Mack Garrison (11:38)
Right, you're saying of a plan of action to continue to follow and you're not having to self doubt yourself then in that instance. So it sounds like basically the word of wisdom
for anyone getting into a new gig, even if it feels like you're a little uncertain, just ask questions. And if you're in a good place, those folks should be supportive around you.
Kirsten (11:53)
Absolutely. It's, you know, it's, it's helping everyone, to teach you how to do it, how to do it correctly. And I say correctly, you know, loosely because everywhere is going to do a different too. So it's like, you know, the way that I learned to, cause also the thing with digital kitchen and that type of production was I was actually going from animation design and all that into live action production, something I had never done. never took a film class at SCAD. I had never been on a set. I don't think like that was my first like, wow. Okay. We are doing this for.
Mack Garrison (12:12)
yeah.
Kirsten (12:23)
or a commercial on TV. So there was a lot of learning. Eventually learned how to bid in that world too and how those rates and crew needs are different, even still, non-union, union, DGA, like the whole gamut. But yeah, so think just the questions, they're so important and we all ask.
Mack Garrison (12:25)
Let's try it.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
So it sounds like when you
were a DK, you had this really great support, know, folks who want to see you succeed, folks who were championing you, and that's gotta give you the confidence to feel like you know what you're doing. So you get in full time with them, it sounds like, right, someone goes to bat for you. What was the, was it a next step that led you over to Scholar? You know, how'd you end up over with them?
Kirsten (12:54)
Mm-hmm.
So I ended up being at DK for about a year and a half, you know, and I was coordinating that whole time. I think it was just a combination of seeing what else was out there. You know, just they, the company while I was there also had shifts. You know, that's a very normal thing. I know it can be scary coming out of school maybe and seeing, you know, you get into a studio, a large, small, an agency, brand, any of it, but there are a bunch of protocols and it's very natural for places to expand, to contract, to, you know, people to move
Mack Garrison (13:29)
Mm-hmm.
Kirsten (13:31)
on people to do that. some of that was starting to shift. They were downsizing a little bit. I had been there a beat. I liked what I was doing but wanted to also see what else was out there. So I did eventually end up kind of going freelance for a beat.
Mack Garrison (13:42)
Sure.
Nice.
Kirsten (13:47)
And I will say I prefer staff. have mad profs to the serial permalancers out there. I just, again, it's a production thing. think I love the structure of knowing my day so much. I just do better in it. And that also took me a minute to figure out. I'm glad I freelanced.
Mack Garrison (13:51)
Hahaha
Sure.
Yeah.
And was that, do think that's the big difference
just for folks who maybe are even considering moving freelance? What do you think was the big difference between a freelance producer versus in-house producer?
Kirsten (14:15)
I mean, I think you get to choose a lot more of what you are working on. It's like if you're on a staff.
You know, for many reasons. One, we know your skill set, right? To your point, our job, you my job is to find those opportunities for not just my creatives, but for the producers too. If someone has a really strong background and effects, but they've never done anything with live action and they really want to learn that, you know, I want to try to find a job that combines that so they can learn that and they can grow, you know, and they can ultimately become a better producer because they know more.
Mack Garrison (14:26)
Sure.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Love that.
Kirsten (14:50)
So yeah, I know, think it's just, it is important to offer that up. And I got totally lost in what we've been talking about there. But...
Mack Garrison (14:57)
it's fine. Well, I just sent you on a tangent because I was curious, know, because they're talking
about producers in-house versus freelance. And so, and so we were talking about, know, you were freelancing a bit, but ultimately it was like you liked being grounded in-house. You just, that was your preference. You recognize right away that you liked that structure. So it sounded like you moved on from being a freelance producer and one was looking specifically to get in-house.
Kirsten (15:03)
Yes.
Correct, yes, and I'm sorry I lost my own sauce there. But no, think yes, it's...
Mack Garrison (15:23)
Now I love this the sauce is an interesting thing look my job I'm gonna send you off
in orbit and then we'll just bring you back around for the goodies of course
Kirsten (15:29)
Thank you. Thank you. Reel me back in.
But yeah, I think it's that compo. It's being able to pick, you know, having a little bit more choice in what you're, again, depends on the studio, but ultimately, ideally having a bit more choice in what you're working on. And I think it's also just the community aspect of being a part of a studio. You know, it's like I've been a scholar for, I think, coming up on my 10th year and, that's to no fault. That's, how insane is that? 10 years? That's wild. Wild! But you know, it's like, that's for a reason. You know, it's like you
Mack Garrison (15:50)
That's amazing. Congratulations. That's no short feat, you know? That's wild.
Kirsten (15:59)
don't
you see people move around and it's all different things. It's growth, it's you know maybe just not a fit for how you are and operate culturally a bunch of stuff. New opportunities in general like to do something that you never thought you'd be able to do but see I think it's that combination there of the structure, the community, and then also just being able to kind of forge a bit more into your growth and where you want to go.
Mack Garrison (16:21)
I love
that and honestly, it's a good segue into a question I had for you. mean, so clearly with this background of freelance, in-house, and just the time and space that you've been in the industry, you know, and you've just seen a lot of change. There's been a lot of change in our industry, even in the short period of time. I'm curious, you know, as you look back kind of over this decade of experience or so, you know, what are you looking forward to? You know, what gets you excited about the future?
that we have for our industry and maybe where some points of concern that you have.
Kirsten (16:54)
That is such a good question. So Max sent me some questions ahead of time because he's a good person. It wasn't just like, surprise, here's questions. And I was like dang, this is going to be a tricky one. And here we are out the gate early on getting into it. is a really great question. you're right. I will say I do feel like.
Mack Garrison (16:59)
I did. Gotta get those good answers, you know?
That's right, warmed you up here for the first 10 minutes or so.
Kirsten (17:17)
maybe not the ground ground level of motion design of this industry of this community, but pretty early days into it. It was only just recently made a major when I was getting ready to graduate. Sure, there were studios out there for me to go to that were starting to implement these skills, but it wasn't what you're seeing now and what's out there in terms of our massive community and all these amazing studios across the world that are just specifically doing straight motion graphics versus mixed media design animation, all that stuff, matching it all together.
Mack Garrison (17:42)
Mm-hmm.
Kirsten (17:47)
You
know, I think what's exciting is all of those new voices. And I think especially too on the scholar side, it's funny, I was just talking to Krista who's so amazing, who's just my guiding light in marketing for all of us. We don't deserve her. But it's, we were just talking, I was like, I have 10 years as a scholar. It's like even at one studio, right? Like seeing.
Mack Garrison (18:02)
haha
Right.
Kirsten (18:09)
our voice change from fledgling, you know, they had been around right before I started, we're gonna be 15 this year, so, you know, which is also holy cow. But seeing how we then, you know, talk about ourselves shift so much in 10 years, right? So I think it is seeing all those new voices out there that are strong, amazing, powerful voices. I think it's seeing that community expand and support each other. You know, it is something where
Mack Garrison (18:16)
Wow, amazing.
Kirsten (18:38)
it there's all these niches right you can find your person it doesn't matter if you're introverted extroverted if you're into this one thing or all of these things it's like I feel like within this community you can find your counterparts and we are this band of misfits you know like we really are
Mack Garrison (18:41)
Yeah.
Yeah. a hundred percent. mean, I feel like motion design in and of
itself is kind of an amalgamation of so many different backgrounds. You know, there was this guy, I I was in school and his, I think his name was Edward Tufte. He was this graphic designer. He organized data sets basically. But one thing he mentioned that I really liked was this idea of a capital T theory. You like start in one place and then get to a point and there's a branch off, right? So maybe it's like, I love graphic design. interesting. Here's motion design.
Kirsten (19:02)
Bye!
Mack Garrison (19:20)
I love motion design. you know what? Maybe I'm a better producer. Let me produce or let me actually become a creative director. And so you start to connect all these teas into your point of just being a collection of misfits and all these different backgrounds. It's problem solvers, it's creatives in our industry is so very that you're right. You can always find another counterpart who's similar to you just because we are so diverse and have so many different backgrounds.
Kirsten (19:41)
100 % and I think even the diversity side of it, it's like, know, me starting out, like I don't think I knew, I knew of like two female creative directors who are still out there crushing it, you know, like, but it's like even that writer, it just, you know, in general, just like the folks that are kind of stepping up and have been, they, you know, they might've started out as designers, but now they've been doing this for 10, 15 years. They are the creative directors, you know, and it's like.
while there might not have been that same availability of mentorship, and that is a huge responsibility, right? It is to kind of guide and help and be there for that next generation of folks coming up. There's more of that now across the board. And not just with women either, just everything. And that is so amazing to see just such a blended community too. I don't know that you see that everywhere.
Mack Garrison (20:31)
Yes.
No, I
totally agree. I think it's, there's so many, to your point, we just have so many more people in this space than we ever had before, which is amazing, right? Cause now you've got all these different voices, all these different perspectives, which we desperately needed for a while because that variety is ultimately what makes the variety work so great. I bet there's a handful of people that are listening to this though, and they're saying like, yeah, that is all great, but it also means it's more of a crowded space than ever before. How the heck do I get into this? I'm curious from your perspective.
Kirsten (20:36)
So that's amazing.
Mack Garrison (21:03)
know, students are always asking, you know, how do I get on a studio's radar or how can I break into the industry? Thinking back to some of those early days when you first got in or even folks reaching out to you today as an EP, you know, what are some things that have stuck out or any advice you could give to someone who maybe wants to break into this space? Like what are some things that they could try or you're like, you know what, I think this is successful if you gave this a go.
Kirsten (21:30)
You know, well, I guess there's a couple of things, right? First and foremost, it's something like going to the Bash, right? Like that is a great way to connect with your, but for real though, it's like you want to, you want to meet up with working industry professionals across the board, right? Like we're all coming from different backgrounds. are staffers, we are freelancers, we are owning studios, we are ad studios, we are leadership, we are ground level. So it's, it's such a mix. So talk to people in real life.
Mack Garrison (21:36)
Hey, there we go. Good plug. Good plug.
Kirsten (21:57)
Ask them, meet them, make a connection, follow up on that connection. know, it's like having that FaceTime is so important. And I feel like, you know, those are the people even now that I still connect with more is like, I've had that one off about, this ramen spot in Austin's amazing, know, like random things. But I'm like, yes, Austin ramen. You know what I mean? It's like this weird, you know what I mean?
Mack Garrison (22:18)
Sure.
That's great. Austin Rommel, you're my go-to now for all illustration projects,
right?
Kirsten (22:25)
But it's
true, like you kind of, just, humanizes it so quickly. And I think that that is something that we just have to remember. It's, know, we're all seeking that no matter where we are at that level of connection. So the Bash is a great way. You know, if there's studios that you love, I mean, when I was first getting into it, again, I tried the internship thing, it worked out. think interning right when you're graduating can be a great gateway because then you are open, right? and internships are not a guarantee that you're going to get hired somewhere. You know, they are for both the intern to figure out.
do I like doing this? Do I like this studio? Does it make sense for me and who I am? And then for the studio to also think of those same things, you know, when it's not always going to be a match and that's totally fine, you know, it's part of it, you know.
But I think finding that internship opportunity out the gate, out of graduating or getting ready to graduate so that you kind of can get that foot in the door. I sent a bunch of cold, you know, even when I was in between stuff, like cold emails. I'm not a cold caller, but you know, it's like, and they weren't just like the same blanket template, you know, where you could tell the name. It's like, take a minute to like think about what you want to do because. Yeah.
Mack Garrison (23:18)
cold emails. Nice.
yeah, and we're all human. Like everyone loves like a pat on the back.
Like, I really love this piece of the project or I love what you did here. You know, I, yeah.
Kirsten (23:36)
clear and it's
It means you know who you're talking to, too. It's not just blanket like, hi, I have done this and I would like to do this. It's like, you're not a robot. So I think it seems like, no one's going to answer. I will say I do really try to answer when people email me. I will take time when I can to talk to people who are getting ready to graduate, have graduated. I would like to say I'm a pretty approachable person. I remember what it's like to not get a response and just like, it's something really hard.
Mack Garrison (24:05)
Sure. Yeah, it's
awful. It's like, look, I'm a human on the other end of this, right?
Kirsten (24:09)
Yeah,
and it's like, I can't answer every email ever, right? But it's like, I do try when I see that, when I can see that on the other side that they've tried. And a big thing too is like, know who you're reaching out to. If you are applying to a job, right? And it says send to jobs at whatever with this subject, follow the directions.
Mack Garrison (24:29)
sure, right, just the simple things.
Kirsten (24:30)
Just follow, don't
email everyone. Don't email PR jobs, the seven EP, just email jobs and put the subject in and put it, cause it's like, that is the first and spell the person's name right. Like I get a lot of Christians out there. Well.
Mack Garrison (24:35)
Ha ha.
yeah, look as, I bet as a Mack I get Mack, I get Mark, I've seen it all.
Kirsten (24:50)
And I know
I work with a Mack who I love who's an MAC, I'm a Collie, and I was typing, you were responding to say, hey, thanks, excited to chat. And I had the MAC and I was like, no Kirsten, wrong Mack, get that K in there. But it's true. It's like I get a lot of Kristens, I'll be honest. I don't respond to the emails that say, Kristen, because that's not my name. So was like, know, wrong direction.
Mack Garrison (24:54)
yeah.
Gotta get it.
Oh, a hundred percent, a hundred percent. I'm the same way. It's like, especially if it's, if it's,
know, especially on the new business stuff, I'll get people reaching out all the time, trying to sell me something, which I get, and I try to give everyone, uh, you know, the time of day, but it's like, if it looks, if it looks like it's just templatized, you just copy and paste it. You don't have the ability to spell my name right, or you're totally off in the market on what I even do. You know, it goes back to key takeaway, I think for anyone listening is authenticity. Just be genuine on however you're doing it and meeting in person still matters, especially
Kirsten (25:33)
Yep, exactly.
Mack Garrison (25:36)
in this digital world where I think we're all saturate with digital content, that in-person meeting is so important. know, one question I had for you, just as we were talking, I was thinking about this, is, you know, so interesting with a producer role. I remember I was a creative and I was an animator and I felt like I was pretty good. And then very quickly as I started to kind of grow, I was like, you know, there are better people at this than me.
And that's kind of when I think I started to consider taking on more of a producer and then eventually an EP role. Cause I was like, well, I'm good with clients. I'm good at managing time and getting stuff done. I'm curious from your perspective, who's now been producing for a while, you know, what are some of the key attributes attributes that make up a good producer or someone who's listening is trying to aspire to be an executive producer. What advice would you give them?
Kirsten (26:23)
So, I mean, that's a great one too. I would say, you know, the details, listening, communication, like the biggest part of my job is communicating, right? Being able to clearly communicate, being able to break down hard conversations.
having hard conversations too, especially EP role. It's like we get feedback sometimes or something might be going off the rails and being able to talk to your team and also talk to that client in a way that makes everyone still feel confident in what they're doing without completely ruining the mood to help pivot that shift is so, so important. Strong communication, just showing up and caring.
I'm sure we've all been there. You're on like a daily or a call and someone's just, you know, we all have bad days, right? It's like, you don't know what's going on in someone's life. You have no idea. It could just be whatever, but you know, just showing up and caring and wanting to be there goes so far and can really help shift the whole mood of that team for the day too. You know, just.
Mack Garrison (27:26)
because it is balance
because you're trying to navigate client relationships and creatives. So you're kind this middle ground. It's like, look, I got to protect our creative team, but I also got to get what we need to get done for the client and kind of being able to massage both those directions where appropriate is important.
Kirsten (27:40)
Yeah, no, a thousand percent. it's, think being able to read, you know, a really good producer, I think, and NEP at a production too, can read and adjust how they interact with someone, right? So it's like, depending on which of my creative directors I'm talking to, you know, I might have a different tone or approach or, you
just how I come to them with something because I know that's how they do better with receiving information. I know that they need to talk it out versus like, you know, okay, let's just get into this. Same with clients too. It's like, you know, I tend to be a very, very emotive email or I love an exclamation mark, a smile. Sometimes I'm like, here's the...
Mack Garrison (28:15)
Exclamation mark
period exclamation mark period right you got to the balance in there
Kirsten (28:19)
I'm like, let's pull it back. We've got
like four smile faces in here. Let's just like tone it down. But there's some people I talk to where it's like, that's just not how they want to talk. And so, you know, I, I mirror that, you know, I try to make myself as approachable to them in their process. And I think to your point of being genuine and authentic with that, I'm not muting down who I am, but I'm also allowing them the space to show them that I can meet them there. And I'm not going to necessarily like make them uncomfortable either with how, you know, being like, if they don't want that energy.
Mack Garrison (28:34)
Mm.
No, a hundred percent.
Kirsten (28:49)
I'm gonna stop.
Mack Garrison (28:50)
feel like it's one of those things that, and we were talking a little bit about this, think right before we started recording that, you know, the best practice for becoming a good producer is just to continually put yourself in those situations where you have to navigate it. There isn't always a go-to solution. And sometimes you have to improvise and come up with something and set a standard yourself because you're not sure the answer. And that's okay. I think all about producing the people who really know what they're doing air quotes is
just because they've been in the space for a long time and they've had those different experiences. So it's a mixture of kind of reaching out and talking to other folks, being comfortable, having uncomfortable conversations. How do you practice that? It's probably just going through it, all the different scenarios and just trying to get, like you mentioned earlier, internships or get in early at a place to kind of learn from the people around you.
Kirsten (29:36)
Yeah, I know. mean, that's the best way to do it is just get that actual experience. And I will say, too, it's like I'm a little...
As I'm like, I love staff. The one benefit back to freelance is like, pop it around to a few places. You can see how a bunch of places do it. You can see maybe I'm better in a boutique setting versus a larger setting. Maybe I actually want to go into feature animation and don't want to do commercials at all. But I will say it's like that is the benefit of freelancing is a bit more of that. Seeing a wider net of styles and approaches.
Yeah, I mean with producing, it's like there's no secret handbook. There's no, you know, it's like, there's days where, mean, there probably every day, honestly, I call, it's myself managing EP and I've got a senior producer and another EP that I work with who I just like, I adore. They are the best. could not exist without them.
Mack Garrison (30:14)
Right.
You gotta have those charrettes,
be able to talk it out and work through it. Like how would you handle this, you know?
Kirsten (30:28)
yeah, my peeps, are just
like, but the number of days that I will come to them as they're managing AP and say, hey, I made this real and I feel like it's super wrong. What am I doing? And they're like, did you think about this? Like, that's how it should be. You know, it's like I am I have expertises, but I'm trusting my team around me to and also, you know, rely on what they're great at or what they might be seeing that I'm not thinking about. So I think, you know, it doesn't mean just, you know, closer to the top that I don't
have people. I go to those around me still.
Mack Garrison (31:00)
Oh yeah. 100
% having that little community around you, having some core people. Honestly, even my wife, Molly, I talk to her all the time about things. She's not even in my industry, you know, but it's always just good to get opinions on various things. think something that our industry, you know, just thinking about opinions and making decisions, it's, it can be a stressful place. I mean, it is a stressful industry. Stuff needs to be turned around really quick. There's last minute asks, there's tight deadlines and big pressures and big deliverables.
And so something that I've seen creep up more and more often is burnout. I think everyone in the creative space, whether you're a student or have been in this industry for 10 plus years has navigated burnout at some point in their life. I'm curious from your perspective, as that's creeped up in your life, how do you navigate that? Any tricks that you have found when you feel like, I'm feeling a bit burned out.
Kirsten (31:36)
Mm.
I mean, you know, I think you totally, it exists everywhere, every industry, I think too. You know, the big one and where I notice it, boundaries, you know, I feel like that's the thing that has become more of something that we all talk about, is like boundaries and setting them.
But yeah, you this is a job. You have a life outside of this, right? So it's twofold. You know, I work at an amazing studio with amazing people, but I also need to make space. And for me to do my job well, I need to have that clear head space. So if I don't, I can feel myself maybe getting shorter, maybe not thinking things through, maybe making rash decisions. so stepping away for a minute, you know, taking a mental health day where I just read a book, trying to get outside and go
Mack Garrison (32:29)
Mmm.
Kirsten (32:40)
on a walk, having to find working hours, not saying that you email me after 6.30 and I'm going to kick you to the curb. But it's like really trying to uphold that and also trying to.
Mack Garrison (32:47)
Right
Kirsten (32:52)
to look out at that for other people too. So it's like a bad habit I was getting into, right? It's like, I would be like, okay, I'm trying to be on Slack from nine to six, right? And then I would, as I've reevaluated my boundaries with a new baby, cause that's a whole other fun journey. I had boundaries, I was doing really great. And then, know, Daisy came into the scene and was like, yo, what's up mom? I'm a toddler, my rules. And I was like, cool, cool, cool. I got this. But I'm currently actually trying to re-figure
Mack Garrison (33:01)
Sure.
then Daisy came in and it was like, yeah, that was it. That's right.
Kirsten (33:22)
what are the boundaries that I need to show up for her but also to show up for my studio and for my people. know, something I found myself getting into the habit of because I was kind of shifting.
how I was working just to do, know, it's like, I joke, she's like my elder baby. She goes to bed at like 630. I'm just like, what is your wife? Like you're not even getting blue plate special. But you know, it's like, we're working at that time. So I have to step away to do, you know, I do step away to do dinner and bath time and get her ready for bed. And I come back and I was finding myself sending these like slacks like later. And I'd be like, Kirsten, you're breaking the rule that you set for yourself. Like, why are you slacking people at 9 p.m.? That is just straight rude. So I've been trying to really remind myself so I can like get it out to schedule my slacks.
Mack Garrison (33:39)
my gosh, I love that.
Yeah.
Kirsten (34:04)
which is such like a simple silly thing to say out loud, But, or schedule my emails. But I'm really trying, yeah.
Mack Garrison (34:04)
Mmm.
But it helps everybody, not only is it helping you
temper expectations of what should be done in a day, but you're also alleviating your team members. Because as their manager or boss, if they're getting a ping from you, I'm sure you're like, they could be in the middle of dinner, they see a ping come through, do I need to go respond that? So that planning is helping them as well.
Kirsten (34:19)
Absolutely.
Yeah, it's exactly. I remember what that's like, too, being like, I probably should respond to this email. And I think that's the other thing, too, is like, I say it a lot to, I feel like, way too many people. deadlines are important, right? It's like, there are times when we are delivering a job. And it needs to go out that day, because that's the day we've all chosen. there are media buys, and there are things like that, right? If we've promised we're going to post, we need to do that. We need to follow through. I'm not saying you should just disregard all that, but.
Mack Garrison (34:46)
Alright.
Kirsten (34:55)
what we are doing, you know, I'm not out here saving lives. So if, if, know, that slack can get answered the next day, it's probably nothing that pressing. If it really was, I would call you, would text you, you know? So I think it is giving a little bit of, of grace to yourself. That's another thing I'm really working on right now is giving myself grace. I feel like I try to give grace to others and I'm trying to give myself a bit more grace this year.
Mack Garrison (35:08)
Ha ha ha.
Mm-mm.
I love that.
reminds me of yeah, it reminds me of like some, Brene Brown quote, right? Where it's like, I think it was daring to lead. Maybe she speaks about how, look, you're in the arena, you're doing best. You're showing up. You know, we are, we are our own best critic. Or sometimes we lean into what the critics are saying. When at the end of the day, it's like, look, you can only do so much. You're doing the best you can with the information you have and you're moving things forward. You know, perfection, hippest progress. I'm doing my best and we got to give each of ourselves a little bit more grace accordingly. So I think that's really well said.
Kirsten (35:24)
and not be as hard on myself.
Mm-hmm.
Thank
Mack Garrison (35:54)
Well, let's see, we're coming up here on time. Maybe we can leave it here on this last question, just thinking about, you know, for those that maybe haven't been familiar with you or scholars work until this conversation and thinking about the Bash coming up, what could they expect from your talk at the Bash? What do you, you have any early inklings of what you might be hitting on?
Kirsten (36:14)
I know that's another I'm like, I have a lot of ideas that I need to Condense into an idea. But no, I mean I want to talk about I Do want to talk about the importance of our community and the voices in our community, you know I do want to talk about things like mental health and boundaries and How you can't be successful unless you are helping yourself first You know, I want to talk about just that larger connection as a whole
Mack Garrison (36:20)
haha
Kirsten (36:43)
across what we all do and how inviting all that in, inviting all these different people and just makes us better. know, it's like we've been talking about the this being a more crowded space right now, right? And it's like, it's interesting to see these studios that do amazing work, even like kind of like reinventing how they do it, you know, like Tendril and Builders Club and Future Deluxe creating this like merge thing. Hit this or like, you know, buck with giant ant or residency. It's like, you know, I think that
Mack Garrison (37:00)
Mmm.
Yeah.
Kirsten (37:12)
even though we compete, I think it's like helping others. And in terms of what you're gonna get, I think this is a pretty good example. I am a human to default. feel like I'm hopefully slightly fun, but also like, I don't know, what I just saw energy. mean, Mack could see me talk once before and I just, I...
I don't know, this is just who I am. I'm trying to be, I just try to be a genuine, authentic human. I'm a little bit out there in a fun way, I hope. And, you know, I hope you guys
Mack Garrison (37:42)
All right. I think that about does it here with Kirsten. So glad that we got to talk today. We got to chalk it up and talk today. This has been so fun. So pumped to have you at the Dash Bash this summer. And if you haven't gotten a ticket yet,
What are you waiting for? Now's the time. You know how great Scholar is. You know how great Kirsten is. You know how great the Dash Bash is. Let's do it. Let's get hanging out.
Kirsten (38:01)
Thanks, Mack. I'm super excited. I can't wait to see you guys in June!