Julie Craft

In this engaging conversation, Julie Craft, a talented animator and motion design generalist, shares her journey from a high school nerd to a successful freelancer and founder of Boxfort. She discusses the evolution of motion design, the impact of technology like Rive on animation, and her experiences working with major brands in the automotive industry. Julie also highlights the importance of community in the creative field, shares insights on freelancing, and expresses her love for music production, showcasing her multifaceted talents.

Takeaways

• Julie started her journey in motion design before it was a defined career path.

• Her high school experience in media helped her find a sense of community.

• The evolution of technology has significantly impacted the motion design industry.

• Rive has opened new opportunities for animators to create and collaborate directly with developers.

• Working with major brands has taught her valuable lessons about UX and design.

• Julie emphasizes the importance of a supportive and collaborative creative community.

• Red flags in freelancing include over-communication and lack of team cohesion.

• Green flags include concise communication and a visible sense of team spirit.

• She finds inspiration in both established and emerging artists in the motion design field.

• Julie's passion for music has led her to explore electronic music production and live performances.
  

Chapters

00:00 Introduction to Julie Kraft and Her Journey

02:51 The Evolution of Motion Design and Technology

05:58 Navigating Change in the Motion Design Industry

08:55 Exploring Rive and Its Impact on Animation

11:59 Working with High-Profile Brands and Projects

15:08 Lessons Learned from the Automotive Industry

17:58 Passion and Frustrations in the Industry

22:26 Red Flags in Job Postings and Client Interactions

24:16 Identifying Green Flags in Collaborations

27:18 Inspiration from Peers and Influences

31:31 The Journey into Music and Performance

35:24 New Chapter

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Transcript:

Mack Garrison (00:00)

Hey, what's up y'all? Mack Garrison here with Dash Studio and we got another good one for you. Another series in the speaker series. We got the talented Julie Craft hanging out with me today. And if you don't know Julie Craft, you should, because Julie is a technical minded animator and broadly skilled 2D and 3D motion generalist. From the day she first opened After Effects in 2001 until now, she has had her hands in almost every possible aspect of our industry. Julie is a highly successful freelancer and has become a trusted creative.

for countless studios and clients throughout her career. She has self-taught and began growing her skills before motion design was even defined as a career path, which is relatable to all of us. As a leader and founder of Boxfort, a thriving creative collective and co-working space in Detroit, she has been instrumental in fostering creative collaboration and community growth. And we love that. Welcome to the show, Julie. So glad to have you here.

Julie Craft (00:51)

I'm happy to be here very much.

Mack Garrison (00:53)

Julie, I'm just gonna be your hype person because I feel like reading your list of accolades, I mean, you've done everything, you've worked with everyone, you're so immensely talented. Maybe you could start the conversation off with a little bit of your journey. How did you find yourself into this world of freelance motion design? Where did that really begin for you?

Julie Craft (00:55)

Go for it.

Yeah. So like, you know, as you sort of mentioned in my bio, I grew up or I started doing motion graphics before it was defined, you know, sort of, what is it? like a aspect of the industry. Yeah. It was a field. Yeah. Yeah. Right. so it was like always, you know, video editor, whatever. So, the first time I even did anything with video, luckily my high school had a TV and radio station in the high school.

Mack Garrison (01:28)

field or anything. What the hell is this thing?

Julie Craft (01:43)

So there was actually after school radio shows, I had my own radio show, a Christian punk and ska music radio show. So that's something. I branched it into a little bit of electronic music at the time too. But yeah, it was like, but it was all like Christian music, you know, cause I grew up Christian, whatever. Another story for another time. Yeah, but that's why I started working with media. And then like on the, on the video side, they had a TV station. do like,

Mack Garrison (01:50)

Sick. Nice. Excellent.

Sure, sure.

Julie Craft (02:10)

video announcements throughout the school. Every classroom had a TV in it. So we kind of do like a broadcast style setup. And they had like an, I don't know if you know, like an Amiga video toaster. It's like an older dedicated hardware computer that could do a bit of 3D and mainly had this like sheep dropping transition thing, whatever. But that was my first intro to any sort of like nonlinear editing and stuff. And then the actual switcher thing that like did the newscasts, you could do lower thirds.

Mack Garrison (02:26)

cool.

Julie Craft (02:38)

And I was able to animate the lower third. So really the first motion graphics I did was an animated title slate underneath like people for the school announcements. Yeah.

Mack Garrison (02:48)

that's funny. When you were like

making it where people were like, this is so rad. What is this?

Julie Craft (02:51)

Yeah, yeah,

I mean, they didn't even, I mean, who knows if they even notice, like, just like still no one notices what we do now. But yeah, like, no, but like I excelled in the class and I loved it and I, you know, and it was also special to me because I mean, I was totally like, I know I'm like super cool now, everybody loves me, I guess, but I wasn't like that. No, in high school, like I was totally a nerd, you know, stuffed in the locker kind of whatever kind of person.

Mack Garrison (03:12)

So cool.

no.

Julie Craft (03:19)

No, I just, I like, had some close friends, but you know, when it came to the broader, like high school social structure, I, I did not have a place. I didn't understand it. didn't know who I was, where I was, whatever. And the TV and radio group, it was cool. Cause also, kids came from the other two schools in the school district. So it was like different people from different schools. We all came together and it was very much like my first, like taste of a community of, and it was kind of like.

You know, the movie, the breakfast club or freaks and geeks. was just like a whole mismatch of different, you know, some of it, some of the people were like football players, popular. some were totally like, you know, the misfits or the whatever the punk kids. Yeah. All that stuff. Yeah. You know, and it didn't matter. Like, like, all that status was like a race there in that little micro community. then, and honestly, like that's the vibe I bring like nowadays, like what I try to do with box for is that same vibe. It's just like.

Mack Garrison (03:51)

yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Molly Ringwalls or whatever.

Julie Craft (04:18)

place where like, you know, all the freaks go and we all have fun and there's no, you know, pretentiousness. So that was a whole lot.

Mack Garrison (04:24)

I love that you said you're like,

I'm cool now, but we're still queen of the nerds, right? We're all still nerding out here in this like weird area.

Julie Craft (04:33)

Yeah, I mean, I'm like cool within a very small community, which is our whole animation community. No one else knows me outside of that. I'm not on like the Forbes, you know, 30 or what? I'm way over 30 now, so I don't know. I'm not, you know, I'm not known like anywhere. Sure. Maybe, maybe. I don't know. don't know. Yeah, so that all started in high school and then...

Mack Garrison (04:48)

If there was a Forbes for the animation industry, you might make it. You might get on there, right? Yeah. I love that.

Julie Craft (04:57)

Like after high school, I went to this school called specs Howard, which is like a broadcast school. It's just like a one year program. Did more like newsy stuff, did a little avid, a lot of nonlinear editing, you know, but we still had some real to real like, you know, analog editing, all that stuff. So I did a bunch of stuff with tapes, beta cam SP, all that stuff. so yeah, the really old school stuff. And that was all like just kind of starting to switch over to digital. So yeah, I went there and then my first job was like at this.

Mack Garrison (05:17)

How?

Julie Craft (05:27)

local cable station, doing like commercials. Actually, I started as like a production coordinator, just assigning work. And then like, like one day a freelance, here's, here's where my motion graphic like, career really started is in 2001, like I said, when I opened up After Effects. So a freelancer came in, to our, you know, studio, a freelance editor and he made like lightning, you know, use the AE lightning effect. And I was like hooked.

Mack Garrison (05:32)

cool. Yeah, yeah.

Julie Craft (05:53)

And it wasn't just the lightning, was also like the compositing he did to like make light go on like a person's face and stuff. And from there is when I was really hurt. So that's when I started learning After Effects. Like a year or two later, they moved me into a graphics position, you know? And I absolutely grew up with Video Copilot, Grayscale Gorilla. I learned like everything from them. And then, yeah, just sort of like watch the industry grow. And now it's a real thing.

Mack Garrison (05:57)

sure.

Mm-hmm. yeah.

Also wild. mean, like I remember those days when you had like Adobe on a disc, right? Like it wasn't, you weren't subscribing to it like we are now, you know, and just seeing that evolution, I think from really the hardware days of it to like how easy it is to get into and adopt now. mean, there's a lot of perspective that comes with that. I think, do you have any takes on just the change that's currently happening in our space? And the reason I asked this is because, you know, you've seen so much change in your lifetime.

Julie Craft (06:23)

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Mack Garrison (06:49)

from when you started to what we're doing now. I think there's a lot of uncertainty and even discomfort that comes with change. I don't know, what's your take on this industry and how it's been evolving and how it's continuing to evolve?

Julie Craft (07:04)

Yeah, so this is definitely like in my talk, I'm going to dive right into that. Like all the topics that we usually dance around, I'm going to jump right in. You know, the whole specialist versus generalists. I have a lot of answers, you whether or not you agree with me or whatever. I have some answers though. So like I uniquely have become a very flexible generalist person in my career. I mean, in life also, you know, been thrown some curve balls in life and in career.

and so like, don't know, like I'm not really, I don't fear as much, know, like when VR came on the scene and 360 video and everyone thought this is the new thing, you know, none of it became the thing, you know, throughout all of it, there's been like a need for custom content creation and we're still doing that. And yeah, AI can like take all the stuff we've made already and make stuff like it, but it can't make anything new. It can't, it doesn't have intuitive leaps.

You know, the AI we know is Gen AI. It's not AGI, you know, which is general intelligence. So it's not, you know, it's not Skynet. It's not whatever. It's not the AI we see in movies at all. So it's like, it's just like a filter and you know, maybe I'll explain some of that in my talk a little bit if anyone cares. No, no, no, there's tons of secrets. I'm not giving away. Don't worry. But yeah, it'd be a fun time.

Mack Garrison (08:13)

Right. Right.

Yeah, I don't want you to give away too much, but I love that you're going to come with like some. Yeah, that's good. Well, it is interesting because it's like it has opened

the door to like, you know, I think I was talking to Michelle Higa Fox with Buck on another one of our interviews and just talking about getting into technology and new tech that's coming out. so with everything scary that comes down the line, there's also opportunity and cool areas to play. And one of those I know that you've been playing around a lot in is Rive.

Julie Craft (08:34)

Hmm?

Mack Garrison (08:48)

Maybe you can speak a little bit to some of your work you've been doing in Rive and what's kind of brought you into that space.

Julie Craft (08:49)

Yeah.

Yeah, so for me, weirdly, like, the abilities of software have usually drive my creativity. Like when I started learning After Effects or when I started learning Cinema 4D, I was like, oh, you can do this thing. That gives me ideas. You know, I came from like the opposite of a traditional art background. I was like, you know, video editor first, like computer stuff first, kind of, and then got into art stuff. besides that trade school I went to, you know, I'm self-taught. So everything designed kind of came later for me.

So for me, it's like when I get a new tool, I feel like it really inspires me. And with Rive, so leading up to like the recent years, and I used to do stuff with like automotive work, a lot of app UI work and everything. And all of that was like, you know, basically doing mockups and After Effects and like exporting it for developers and then learning how to like say, hey, like this is how it should look, here's a video. But then I would have to say like,

Mack Garrison (09:38)

yeah.

Julie Craft (09:55)

This should animate in like however many milliseconds. I could have to like document stuff for developers and they would do their best. You I mean, they're amazing. They can make systems and awesome things, but they often can't get the visuals quite, you know, right there. Like the nuance is not there. Right. So what's awesome with Rive it's like direct, you know, you, you build a Rive file, you build a system, you build the software and you, you give it to engineering.

Mack Garrison (09:57)

Mmm.

Right.

Julie Craft (10:21)

But you, give engineering all the inputs and everything. It's like they, they make it work, but like everything that moves you've created it. It's like, it's awesome. And that might seem like, Oh, well I'm, I'm an animator. I don't want to deal with the, you know, you know, that like side of it or whatever, but you know, you can go as deep into the programming side of it as you want or not. Like, cause you, you know, basically with Rive you can animate just like you do in After Effects. It's actually, would say it's more limited than After Effects, but has an awesome like puppeting tool or whatever.

Mack Garrison (10:47)

Sure. Sure.

Julie Craft (10:51)

bones and stuff. So yeah, you can totally animate and it's what you see is what you get. And you can get into the state machine and really pretty simply, you can start to make some basic interactions. And so it just opened my mind up. Like, like it's so much nicer to have direct control and, and the output. So that's what I love. Hmm.

Mack Garrison (11:07)

yeah. Well, it just feels like it's opening a new vertical for a lot of people that

haven't been able to operate in, right? There's the friction of, don't really know code. How do I get into it? Or how do I even work with someone who is using code on the backend, which I find really fascinating. Is there any project either personal or client related, if you're able to talk about it, that comes to mind where you've used Rive that you've just been especially proud of?

Julie Craft (11:21)

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

I mean, all the Duolingo stuff, like I got to, you know, animate the perfect streak fireball. So yeah, it's something that people see. Some of that was like already kind of roughed in and after effects. And then I like read it a lot in, in Rive and then like refined it. You know, there's a lot of people touching it, but I definitely got to have a big part of it. And that was cool. Cause it's like, I don't know, like

Mack Garrison (11:38)

yeah, yeah, that's right, I remember seeing that.

Julie Craft (11:59)

I knew that what I was exporting was gonna be in the app. I'm like, oh yeah, this isn't gonna change. mean, know, if creatives changed it, but they didn't really. So it was awesome to like know that like, even though, okay, I'm putting this in, it's not gonna be in the app for like months, six months, a year later, I don't know. But knowing that like, oh, what I made is actually going in there directly. That's awesome. So yeah, it's so fun.

Mack Garrison (12:17)

Yeah, and just the visibility of it. Cause a lot of times

there's various projects that you work on that, you know, either don't see the light of day or it's internal and things like that. It's nice to have a very public facing piece to be like, Oh look, ma, I made that. This is what I do for a living.

Julie Craft (12:24)

Yep.

Yeah.

And I have very few of like, I feel like I've, I've been kind of in the background for a long time. Like I, you know, I haven't worked on spider verse or whatever. don't have any, like really, really big high profile things. Like I haven't really worked on any movie titles or whatever. I would hint, hint, but, um, it just, yeah, whatever. But I mean, it just hasn't happened and that's okay. And like, I had an idea for where I wanted my career to go.

Mack Garrison (12:38)

Mmm.

Yeah, that's right. anyone's listening, cough, cough.

Julie Craft (12:57)

when I was younger, I'm like, I'm gonna take over the world with 3D animation. And yeah, I've done some awesome 3D stuff, but like I said, I'm loving doing Rive, which is all 2D, and I'm faking a lot of 3D with shapes and stuff. But yeah, it's awesome.

Mack Garrison (13:09)

Well, it's really interesting to me, because I feel

like, you know, listening to a little bit of your background and how you came up through the motion space, it was really a hardware kind of start that moved into more of the software thing. And then you're really seeing all this transition. It just feels like you're really comfortable with tech. And I know you would describe yourself as a technical animator. I think about some of the programs you use from like Rai, Figma, know, Lottie, After Effects, Cinema 4D.

Do you still have kind of like a home that you feel most comfortable in? Like, is there always a starting point before you bridge into these other elements?

Julie Craft (13:43)

Yeah, I mean, After Effects is like, just like another hand. Yeah. I mean, I just, know it so well. There's always weird shortcuts and stuff. do nudging key frames that yeah, I just know it, you know? And yeah, it's still Cinema 4D. I want to try out Blender, but you know, I know Cinema quite well. So yeah, but I feel mostly comfortable in After Effects and you know, it's a bloated, like it's got some issues, you know, you have to install a million scripts to get what you want, but it does, you know, what we need and what I want, what I need. So.

Mack Garrison (13:46)

Bren butter. Sure.

Sure.

Julie Craft (14:13)

Um, that's why it's nice about Rive, like how Rive is very similar to After Effects in a lot of ways.

Mack Garrison (14:13)

While love, yeah.

Well, I was gonna ask like, you for some folks who might be listening to this, I think there's certain apprehension and trying something new. It's like, oh, I could do this, but I could get it done in After Effects. It could look okay, you know? So I'll just start there. How do you convince people to move past that? Try something new, get comfortable in the uncomfortable.

Julie Craft (14:24)

Yeah.

Yeah.

well, it can be refreshing. Like when I opened up Rive the first time I'm like, this is snappy. This is opening right up. I can open it in browser and in on desktop. can have two Rives like one on, you know, one monitor one on the other, and you can go onto the Rive community and open up anyone's Rive file and be like, how'd do this? Open it up in the browser. Look at it. Like that's how they did it. And then build it yourself. It's like, it's right there. It's so wonderful. You know, it's.

You can't open up two after-effects files or you can only report, know what I mean? But it's it's amazing to just have that. Cause like that helped me so many times just learn like, wow. That's how they did that. And then just one to one. Yeah. It just really. Yeah.

Mack Garrison (15:10)

Yeah

It's this whole like open source mentality a little bit almost right? It's like you can always have access to how

stuff's doing and the community gets better with every new creation that people are doing. that's super rad. I love that.

Julie Craft (15:26)

Totally. Yeah, that.

then there's another one, Womp3D, which is like a browser based 3D program. And I recommend that to anyone who wants to get into 3D, who's like never touched it. It's super not intimidating. So I think, yeah, it's like the chance of like, yeah, you think it's daunting, but you might actually have some surprise of like how refreshing it can be and kind of take you back to that, you know, Zen mind, beginner's mind. Like the whole beginner's mindset is super refreshing.

Like if you've been doing something one way for a long time and you just can't break through or you can't think of any new ideas, it can really change your perspective.

Mack Garrison (16:04)

that's super cool.

Well, I know you mentioned earlier that like you hadn't had a chance to work on like a feature film or things that Duolingo was really cool because it was a very visible piece, but you have worked with some dope brands like I think Ford, Toyota, Lexus. I mean, you're in Detroit Rock City, so you're doing all sorts of car stuff. How's it been working with like electric vehicle companies like those?

Julie Craft (16:14)

Sure. Yeah.

you know, well, haven't really worked with automotive in a bit now, but I did a lot, did do a lot and starting with like the auto show stuff and everything, lots of big screen, display stuff. yeah, it was interesting. So, know, just like with a big ad agency or something, they know it's a slow process. Feedback can come way later than it should and so forth. So the opposite of a nimble environment, right?

Mack Garrison (16:28)

sure, okay.

Sure.

Julie Craft (16:51)

so there's that there's responding to that and, also like checking your ego and be like, okay, you know, the feedback is coming from people that are far removed. So, you know, can't take anything personally, but so there was, you know, that it was, it's been a good lesson in that, working on actual in vehicle stuff was fun because like, that was the first time I really got to do like UI work. And it felt like with electric vehicles and stuff, they're trying to align new stuff. And it felt like designing kind of like spaceship user interface, you know?

Mack Garrison (17:01)

Right.

Yeah, I bet, that's fun.

Julie Craft (17:20)

Yeah. So that was fun. And like a ton of stuff like was made by me and others that was totally not used, you know, like tons and tons of different directions and everything, way too much, way too much work that wasn't used, but you know, it was a nice exercise and the muscle of like learning like, okay, well, this has to work with people barely paying attention to it because can't be distracting. And so that can like, I had a few years of like really being immersed in that. And that really gave me a good understanding of UX.

from a human interaction perspective. And I kind of take that with me everywhere now with Duolingo and app work and whatever. So yeah, it's cool.

Mack Garrison (17:58)

That's really cool.

You know, so interesting. think for anyone that's been in the space for a while or like we have, know, you've kind of seen it all. You know, I've done plenty of projects that never saw the light of day. They just got crushed, right? Or you get the last minute stakeholder weighing in on feedback and killing a project. I'm curious from your perspective, since you've seen so much, is there something in particular about our industry that you still just absolutely love? You're just like, this is like, I get up and I'm excited to do XYZ or I love these things.

Julie Craft (18:11)

Mm-hmm.

Mack Garrison (18:28)

And then conversely, I wanna know like what's the thorn in your side? What's like the one thing in our industry you're like, I'm so tired of X.

Julie Craft (18:36)

Yeah, you bet. Oh man, there's so many annoying things. So I love talking about annoyance. I'm going to, I'm going to complain about so much stuff on stage. I tell you it's going to be fun. So what do I love? mean, what I love is just like, there's very little ego, you know, like most people I work with, whatever, absolutely already considered friends or would consider friends. You know, there's a lot of people that I work with that don't live locally. And if they did, I'm sure we'd hang out a lot. It just, I don't know. It's just very refreshing.

You know, I feel comfortable, you know, yeah, it's like very little intimidation factor, right? so that's awesome. And, like, yeah, I love that, you know, at dash bash, like a lot of your intros you've done, like you're always like, Hey, make sure you talk to the talk to people here. Like people that inspire you talk to them. Like we, like we, all of us who are on stage or whatever, you know, have any sort of platform. We all want to hear from students, from new people, like we, it's the perspectives like that newer people have is very refreshing to us.

Mack Garrison (19:10)

Love that.

Julie Craft (19:34)

It's not just what we can teach you. what we can learn. So, you know, we might be busy. We don't mean to offend anyone by not responding, whatever, but you know, so yeah, the approachable necessary one is just so awesome. So refreshing. It's still a thing that everyone who's in a different industry is like, my gosh. Like, you know, in the insurance business, people aren't like that or a dentist in dentistry school or whatever, you know, it's, it's just, yeah. Right. Yeah. So it's just, it's magic. It's as, as, as intense as like.

Mack Garrison (19:55)

Yeah, Dennis aren't connecting with Dennis all the time, know, sharing tea stories.

Julie Craft (20:03)

the political climate and everything going on is like, we have our bubble. We have our kind of safe place where a lot of us can connect. So that is just so refreshing and I don't think that'll ever change. Festivus. my gosh. All right. I'll well, you know, okay. So the other day I saw like a job posting for like a producer or something, you know, whatever, and producers, which absolutely make our lives wonderful.

Mack Garrison (20:13)

I love that. Now I need the festivus,

Mm, sure.

Julie Craft (20:30)

but it was like something like, you know, we need this, this, and this. it was like, you know, working knowledge of C4D preferred. I'm like, C4D for a producer. I'm like, what are you talking about? Like, no, like, I don't know. Job postings have been off the rails for a long time. It's always like, yeah, we need, we need a, you know, rock star who lives in breeze, who loves branding, who loves working. my dog's barking. Great. Yeah. Cause I got excited.

Mack Garrison (20:37)

For a producer, yeah.

Superstar

Yeah, he got excited

too. Yeah, it's like unbelievable job post. Someone who knows all this stuff, you know, but like has 10 years of experience, but they need to be a junior role or whatever it is.

Julie Craft (20:57)

Yeah, there my dogs are like, my gosh, don't even tell me. Yeah, like, you know, we come. Yeah. Yeah. Like, yeah, yeah.

Yeah. Our studio is nimble and like, you know, we do things a little different here. And yeah, yeah, yeah. You love to, you know, just work all day, you know, I'm like, my gosh, I'm so over that stuff. It's like, I can smell like, you know, a spin or BS a mile away. And I'm like, okay, just be honest. Like, yes, be like, okay, to do this job, you do need a working knowledge of this software.

Mack Garrison (21:18)

I was sure.

Julie Craft (21:25)

You need experience in this. You need like, you know, one year or you need five years or this role of senior you need like 10 plus years. Like, yes, be honest about that stuff. But like the other stuff, you know, you're asking for something that doesn't exist, you know, like there isn't a person that was just the perfect rock star that's going to be able to do all that stuff and isn't going to have like really deep needs of like direction and guidance and or even like, you know, like the benefits they need or time off they need like like we're

flesh bags of meat. you you just, just think about like, I know it's like, it's like, if you're doing a job post for a person, like you gotta think realistically about it you gotta like start with some respect for that person. You know, it's like the environment right now, Linked In we're like kind of AI will filter resumes and stuff. It's like really crazy. within our industry, which is still pretty small and stuff, I think we can be a little more thoughtful with our job postings, a little more intentional for sure.

Mack Garrison (21:58)

Butts in seats, right?

Julie Craft (22:26)

So yeah, that's what I

Mack Garrison (22:26)

I love that. And I think, you know,

that's a good red flag is if the job description is a litany of all these different facets of multiple roles, that's a red flag for that position. How about from a freelance standpoint, what are some other red flags you look for if a client reaches out? What's something that gives you an indication that this might not be the right project or fit?

Julie Craft (22:48)

Yeah. Well, if someone emails me and then very quickly texts me or calls me, like if they contact me on multiple, platforms and it's been like not even 24 hours since I responded, it's like, no, this, don't like this, like this. And I've like, I've had very few, like bad things, like really nasty moments, you know, with, with people working with them, but there's been a couple like, you know, industry people I've had to like,

Mack Garrison (23:04)

No go. Too much.

Julie Craft (23:17)

you know, break up with quote unquote. cause I'm like, no, it's just you, this person adds stress to the project. And I mean, I'm fortunate that I have enough work that I can like, be like, no, I don't need to work with that person anymore. so I'm not going to, and some of those studios, some of those people, like most of those are, you know, aren't really functioning. You know, those, those studios aren't around or, or yeah, I've had that where like, so there's that. And then there's also like, there's teams I've worked with where I'm like, this, they're not gelling or they're like openly fighting on Slack, you know, like

Mack Garrison (23:45)

Mmm... Yeah.

Julie Craft (23:47)

Few things are like, can sense that this isn't right. know? Yeah. And I'm like, and often like, you know, I remember one time there was that and I'm like, I don't know what is going on with this studio. And then I got like a, you know, a thing in the mail saying they went bankrupt, you know, about billing and stuff. Fortunately I already had made my money, but I was like, okay, well that makes sense to me. Yeah. That team. Yeah. That team was not gelling and they were like, totally not in tune. Like very bad at communicating with me. Like, I don't know what was going on. So.

Mack Garrison (23:50)

some internal turmoil, right?

That's wild. You're like, okay. I saw how that happened.

Well,

that's really good point though too, is like you gotta kind of understand how you as an individual likes to work and seek out people that like to work in that regard. Cause you're right, there's many solutions to a problem. Some people like to work a certain way and others don't, but if you're not gelling or there's friction points on how you like to work together, that's problematic. So yeah, that's definitely a red flag. How about on the opposite side, not to be negative, we can be positive here. We're green flags. Where are some things you're looking for where like, these are good indications that this partnership is gonna go well.

Julie Craft (24:17)

Yeah.

Hmm?

Yeah.

so often the less a person says, so if someone contacts me and they're like saying, God, we've got all these ideas. We've got this whole thing, like this big project, whatever, whatever. Sometimes I'm just like, I don't think this is project that's going to happen. They don't know it, but it's not happening. I can like sense it. And then it's almost where it's like, they have to convince me it's like a real thing. I'm like, nah. Yeah. So when it's just like, Hey, we've got this, this is the booking, you know,

Mack Garrison (25:09)

Like this is really happening, I promise.

Julie Craft (25:15)

Um, you know, want a little bit of information about what it's going to be, but it's like a couple of sentences like, these dates, you know, what's your rate, you know, what are you available? You know, if I, it's just like a little bit of information where I know that like, okay, they don't have time to like say a whole bunch to me, they're probably talking to a lot of people. Like I like that. I'm like, okay, this is the thing that's really happening. Like this is serious. So I can kind of sense what's serious and what's not. And.

That also means that like, they're probably not going to ask like more of me than they should, you know, they're not going to ask for, yeah. Yeah. So there's that, there's, you know, just like not over-communicating, but communicating enough, you know, giving me time to do my stuff. And then also, yeah, a visible coherence to the team where I'm like, they're having fun. you know, they're, you know, they're a cohesive unit. I've definitely worked recently with some teams.

Mack Garrison (25:44)

they're just gonna be happy to get something done that looks good. Right.

Julie Craft (26:07)

Well, I worked with hook for awhile. worked with Shopify for a bit and I'm like, Oh, these teams are like, Jelan. Like I could tell that they were like having a good time, you know, not just goof around, but you have a good time. having same with Duolingo. I've been like, okay, these teams are, they're Jelan. good. They're doing good. You know, and it's yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Totally. And they're not being like unrealistically positive or like, I don't know. They're, they're not like drinking the Kool-Aid in a way that you wouldn't like.

Mack Garrison (26:22)

Culture makes a difference. You wanna feel like you're a part of a support network, not that it's a bunch of different silos trying to work together, 100%.

Julie Craft (26:36)

You know, it's just like they're being realistic. They're like, I tried to do this. didn't work. And this workflow sucks. Or this thing about our company, like we need to change it. Cause I'm like, I had to do way too much last week and whatever. I'm like, that's why I want like, yeah, honesty. Like we're real people. Let's do it. Yeah.

Mack Garrison (26:51)

I love that. It's

just being authentic on everything. Be authentic on your job post. Be authentic on how you're working with people. Support one another. mean, it's like, it's not a novelty here. I mean, it's just like fundamentals of being a good human, right? Which our industry has done a good job of for a while. And I think that's one of the things that I do really like about it. I'm always inspired by folks. In fact, you mentioned Hook. I actually caught up with him the other day because I thought their work looked really good. I'd never met him before. So I reached out and just wanted to make the connection.

Julie Craft (26:54)

Yeah.

Mm-hmm. All right.

Mostly, yeah.

Mack Garrison (27:18)

From your perspective, I'm so curious. There's so many people who are coming to the bash that look up to you, the work that you do. Who's Julie Craft look up to? Who are some artists out there that you're like, I just love their work?

Julie Craft (27:27)

Who do I look up to? Yeah.

So like I said, I grew up, you know, with the golden age of MoGraph. So, you know, I started really getting into things when MK12 did those Stranger Than Fiction, you know, graphics. Awesome. That movie Oblivion that G-Monk did design stuff for, you know, and then there was like the Ash Thorpe, like FITC Tokyo graphic thing.

Mack Garrison (27:41)

yeah.

yeah, G-Monk, phenomenal.

yeah.

Julie Craft (27:55)

And these are all like things that are more on the like graphic design-y side rather than the illustrative style side. Yep. Yeah. Yeah. So that stuff, you know, some of goes in there, but, you know, can't deny a good work. Not, not just by, yeah, by a lot of people. And then there's a couple of that you probably don't know about. There's a studio called Zeitgeist. Um, they always did a lot of very interesting, um, like experimental 3d work. Um, also the studio one size and another lens.

Mack Garrison (28:00)

I was even gonna say experimental and technical side too as well, you know.

Mmm.

Ooh.

I'm familiar with one size. Yeah, yeah. I haven't heard of Zeitgeist though. That's based in Germany.

Julie Craft (28:25)

Yeah, yeah, you one size. Okay. So yeah, yeah, there's a ton of stuff that was no. Yeah. Zyka is yeah.

think so. Yeah. So those were, those are some of that, like throughout the years I paid attention to you. more recently though, now I would say like, like who I'm really inspired by Joyce Ho. I think spoke at the dash before. Yeah. She, she is, you know, very interesting. She's done some cool e-sports work recently, but, she does some good like experimental film and everything that I admire. And I'm like, yeah, I love that.

Mack Garrison (28:44)

Yes.

Julie Craft (28:54)

She like has this unique voice and she does these films that are more like not necessarily character driven, like more like design driven or experimental driven, which I love that stuff. But by far like so that's lot of my inspiration right now. But honestly, what I'm most inspired right now is Marvel Rivals, the game. Yeah, I'm playing it on I'm on PS5 and play on PC, whatever. But like the design in that game is phenomenal. It's like like there's so many

Mack Garrison (29:13)

yeah, nice.

Julie Craft (29:24)

motion moments. just like a feast for the eyes and ears. It's like as soon as you open the game, like the opening cinematic and it's all like kind of illustration that's flat, but then you know, combined with a little bit of 3D, but it all has like an illustrated look. yeah, I would even if you don't play games, I would try to like watch a highlight reel from it or at least like open up the game and just scroll through it. It's free. Wait, it's free to play so you can install it.

Mack Garrison (29:28)

I love that.

Julie Craft (29:49)

And can go through it. Even like you go to the hero section, you go through all the character portraits and like you go to a portrait and there's like a little motion, you know, like a little thing. And it's just like really well done. And yeah, games have done that for years. You know, I just play Overwatch and now kind of Rivals has overtaken Overwatch. And there's been a lot, you know, they did a lot of good work, but they kind of lost the drop the ball. And now Rivals is just like so crisp, so good. I don't know. It just like chef's kiss. It's like everything I want. Yeah. So it's

Mack Garrison (29:57)

fine.

I love it. I'm not even the

biggest gamer and I want to get in to see this game just based on the aesthetics and the eye candy you're describing.

Julie Craft (30:20)

Yeah, it's so

inspiring. can't, and like every state, you know, it's a team shooter. So you get into a stage and then whatever map you're on, you know, there's just a little intro for the map. They have like some story, but like, who cares about story? It just looks cool. Right. But yeah, there's a little intro and it's like, my God. It's amazing. Seamless combination of 2d illustration with parallaxing, a little bit of puppeting and 3d. I'm like, this is just so good. And somehow it loads instantly. It's just like the best like combination of like

current like technical advances in like game systems, being able to load all this stuff quick and just like, you know, short, short form content. It's like short form content at its best, like the way we, the way we want it to be. So there's tons of little quick digestible moments. You even move between buttons on the UI and like I put my headphones on the other day because I was talking with people playing as a team and I heard sound design that I didn't hear on the speakers before. was like, Whoa, those, clicks on the little buttons. I'm like, those are really

Mack Garrison (31:02)

I love that.

Julie Craft (31:20)

Good. my God. So I'm just like, this is so deeply, it's a company called net ease games. I've never heard of. So I, got to look into the team on it, but it's yeah. Marvel rivals is my, is everything now right now to me. So good. Yeah.

Mack Garrison (31:21)

I love that.

I love it. Even talking about the little elements of sound design, I'm sitting here looking

behind you. You've got a bass behind you. You've got keyboards over your left shoulder. I know before we start hopping on this call, we were talking a little bit about DJing. Speak a little bit to me towards your love of music. Has it kind of just become this side hobby and passion of yours?

Julie Craft (31:47)

Yeah.

Yeah, so I've been probably dabbling in like the synthesizer electronic music realm for like seven-ish years, I think. would say before that when I was younger, I took some piano lessons, played around with the Chinese violin, the Erhu. It's like a two-stringed violin. A little bit music stuff, but yeah, I've been dabbling in like musical hardware for a bit here. And I would say just the past couple of years, it really has come together into like a real thing.

Mack Garrison (32:18)

Nice.

Julie Craft (32:18)

Like

where I'm like, I feel like I've got like a sound I like, and I'm just enjoying making music. And then I just did Jamuary, which is like Inktober for music. I did 31, 31 days. I've yeah, I've got like a YouTube playlist and you'll see it on my Instagram reels, but yeah, I, I did, I recorded posted, you know, video, me making music every day for 31 days. So it's the most content I've ever created. I hate content creation. It's, you know, it's

Mack Garrison (32:27)

cool, that's right. January. my God, I love that. That's great.

You're becoming an influencer.

Julie Craft (32:48)

Yeah, I'll never do this again. was like both wonderful and extremely hard, extremely. Some days I was like, Oh, I do not want to do this, but it got me through like there's friction when it comes to making music with hardware, especially because like, Oh, I got to turn it on. Like, Oh, is it all connected? Right? You know, whatever. But this got me through this experiment, this short-term sprint of content creation, which, know, I definitely recommend short-term like, okay, I can handle this period of time of working really hard. Right. But there's an end in sight.

Mack Garrison (33:16)

Yeah.

Julie Craft (33:17)

This short term got me through a ton of friction of like making sure my setup was dialed in, make sure I could turn on, turn on the cameras, camera like right there, like just all ready to go, turn on record and like, you know, concept to completion, like one to two hours max. It got me through a ton. So now like, I think I've, I've been able to get through like the electronic music, like production hurdles that were kind of blocking me from creativity. And now I feel like I can jump in and make stuff. And yeah, now I'm feeling good all about like.

Mack Garrison (33:34)

Wow.

Julie Craft (33:46)

I performed a couple of times past few years. getting close to having an album ready and I'm feeling like, like, yeah, I like this and performing like in public in front of people, you know, literally like going and like playing like nine, 10 PM at night. Like, you know, I'm too old for this stuff and I'm just getting started. I didn't think this would be such a thing, but I love it. And it's such a like amazing creative flush and just like, wow, people are there physically like feet away from me enjoying what I'm creating.

Like, yeah, it's hard, it's difficult, but my gosh, it's so rewarding. More rewarding than anything, anything posting online or whatever. So yeah, that's where I'm at. Yeah.

Mack Garrison (34:19)

Ugh, I love that.

Well, and also the accountability to do that every

day, you know, it probably reduced, it took friction initially, but then it probably got to a point where you were more comfortable in just creating and just naturally getting into that flow state a little bit faster. Cause I know that's always hard with personal projects of any creative minded project is just getting into it, right? Cause there's the little friction points of it. Very cool, very cool.

Julie Craft (34:32)

Yeah.

Super hard.

Outtake.

Mack Garrison (34:46)

Well, we've been chatting here with Julie Craft, who's a technical minded animator, broadly skilled 2D and 3D motion generalist, and Julie is speaking at the Dash Bash this summer. So if you don't have your ticket, what are you doing? Grab a ticket. We have an optional third day of workshops on June 11th, and then a speaker series on the 12th and 13th. It's gonna be tons of opportunity for hangouts. You get to meet Julie, you get to hang out with all the other speakers and the fantastic industry that we call motion design.

Cannot wait to see you all there. Julie, thanks for hanging with us today. It was a good little tease. Excited to get to more of the nitty gritty stuff in your presentation, but really enjoyed talking today. Yeah, thanks everyone. Have a good

Julie Craft (35:22)

You bet, thanks.

Kirsten Noll Interview

Mack Garrison interviews Kirsten Noll, the managing executive producer at Scholar, who shares her journey from a young artist to a successful producer in the motion design industry. Kirsten discusses her educational background, early career experiences, and the importance of community and mental health in the creative field. She offers valuable insights for aspiring creatives on breaking into the industry, the differences between freelancing and in-house production, and the key attributes of a successful producer. The conversation also touches on the challenges of burnout and the significance of setting boundaries in a demanding industry.

Takeaways

• Kirsten Noll is the managing executive producer at Scholar with a diverse background in animation and design.

• She emphasizes the importance of community and support in the creative industry.

• Kirsten's journey includes a transition from design to production, highlighting the need for adaptability.

• Asking questions and seeking help is crucial for success in the early stages of a career.

• Freelancing offers exposure to different styles and approaches, but in-house work provides structure.

• The motion design industry has evolved significantly, with more voices and opportunities than ever before.

• Networking and building relationships are essential for breaking into the industry.

• Successful producers must possess strong communication skills and the ability to navigate difficult conversations.

• Setting boundaries and managing stress are vital for preventing burnout in the creative field.

• Kirsten plans to discuss mental health and community support at the Dash Bash.
  

Chapters

00:00Introduction to Kirsten Noll and Her Journey

03:10Early Experiences and Education in Animation

05:55Transitioning from Design to Production

09:04Navigating Early Career Challenges

11:53Freelancing vs. In-House Production

14:56Reflections on a Decade in the Industry

16:54The Evolution of Motion Design

21:03Breaking into the Industry

26:01Key Attributes of a Producer

30:58Navigating Burnout and Setting Boundaries

35:54Community and Authenticity in the Industry

38:03New Chapter

---

Transcript:

Mack Garrison (00:00)

Hey, what's up y'all? Mack Garrison here with Dash Studio and we've got another round of speaker interviews for the Dash Bash and I'm joined by Kirsten Noll. Kirsten is a Los Angeles based managing executive producer, heading up the award winning creative production studio Scholar with extensive experience working with top tier industry defining brands. She's passionate about design driven, excuse me, design driven and multidisciplinary narratives. Her diverse portfolio has brought her around the world from Eastern Europe to Central America.

with production expertise in the full gamut of pipelines, including live action, design, animation, and VFX. What does Kirsten not do? Welcome to the show, Kirsten. So glad to have you here. Of course, I don't even know if this is a podcast, it's a vidcast. Some people were listening, some people were watching, but yeah, super pumped to have you here. The amazing work that you all do at Scholar. We're so pumped to have you at the Bash to jump into this.

Kirsten (00:39)

Thank you for having me back!

Thank you, thank you. I will keep this here and say I'm not cool, so I don't know what to call it either. And that's my initial plug for why you should come and see me is I'm super not

Mack Garrison (00:57)

Hahaha

Kirsten (01:02)

saying, hi. So I'm not cool, I'm not hip, I know this about myself. No, I have no idea what to call it. I feel like someone will.

Mack Garrison (01:02)

Come see me talk, I'm not very cool.

Well, I love it. mean,

honestly, we're all kind of a little unhip and kind of nerdy to be in the creative and motion design animation space anyway. You need to be a little quirky. So I think honestly, it's apropos and fitting for us. yeah, maybe we can just jump in it right off the bat. I'd love for you to give a little bit of background on kind of how you got into this space. I'm always curious what are some of folks earliest animation memories, production memories and kind of how you got into this space.

Kirsten (01:18)

true.

It's true.

So that's a great, great question to kick it in with. So let's see, I am an artist by trade. I've always been into art ever since I was little. I feel like I did all the things to be fair, music, dance, drawing, all of it, my poor mother running me everywhere.

Mack Garrison (01:54)

running you everywhere, always going to the store buying different things

Kirsten (01:57)

Exactly,

Mack Garrison (01:57)

basically.

Kirsten (01:57)

just she's like, please, please stop. Not really. She's like very, both my parents, very encouraging of the arts. My sister is also an artist, a producer as well. So I feel like that's the constant question too, is like, how did we end up with two producers? No one else in our family has taken a creative path. Like it's like, have like, know, attorneys and that type of thing. So think that we're all just like, we took a hard left.

Mack Garrison (02:10)

Hahaha

that's so funny. Does the family

at least understand what producing is at this point? Like, have you had enough Thanksgivings that they get it? Okay, that's great.

Kirsten (02:23)

Yes. Yes, they

do for the most part. My mom's pretty good, especially my mom about, you no, this is actually what she did. And this is what she made very, very proud to always texting me, did you make this one? And I'm like, yeah, mom, I did, I did. Or no, no, we didn't. And then she's like, well.

Mack Garrison (02:38)

You're like, we actually lost that bed,

Mom. Thank you.

Kirsten (02:39)

And she's like,

well, it was done well. And I'm like, yeah, OK, cool, rub it in. But no, so I went to art school. I went to SCAD in Savannah, Georgia. And I loved it. When I first started up at SCAD, I wasn't sure what I was going to major in. I was really into graphic design. And I've always loved animation. So I ended up, think it's like by your end of your first year, you have to pick your major. And so I ended up doing animation. Traditional 2D cell animation was what I decided I wanted to do with my life.

And then as I was there, I think I at one point added on the graphic design minor. And then at some point along the way, they created a new major, which has changed names twice now. So I'm gonna use the old, old one, which I think is like very long. was like motion media design, some extremely long, so many characters. Really, really flowed. Yeah, really flowed.

Mack Garrison (03:29)

really setting y'all up for success when folks could name the major.

Kirsten (03:35)

But I remember talking to some folks and they were like, you know, it's like graphic design, but it moves, which also is like, yes, but no. This is early days, pioneer days of what we do now. But I took a few classes and I was like, oh, I like this. So that's kind of when I tapped into the motion design side of things. So I ended up double majoring. I spent five years there, which, you I loved every moment of it. I really did. You know, I'm still so close. I still get to work with so many people that I graduated with, that I was in class with, that

Mack Garrison (03:42)

Sure, right.

Nice.

Kirsten (04:05)

you know, friends of friends, so it's like, I love that part of it too, just seeing us all out there doing it, you know, just like succeeding. Good job all of us, high five. We're art kids that got jobs.

Mack Garrison (04:11)

Yeah.

Yeah, honestly, you're way better. My graduating class, I don't know if

half of them are even in my field, to be honest with you. So you're already off to a great start having peers that are still in here.

Kirsten (04:24)

See,

totally right. I know we're crushing it gang. We're crushing it. I will not say what year I graduated because I'm not trying to date myself but I know I already did it.

Mack Garrison (04:32)

Just by the fact that you're describing when motion graphics came out, know that you're

my age at least because I feel like I was a founding member of whatever they were calling motion graphics.

Kirsten (04:41)

Totally, whatever it was. I said

I'm not cool and I said I started at the beginning. Yes. I know I'm doing a really good job.

Mack Garrison (04:45)

Yeah, sell it really hard here, Kirsten.

Kirsten (04:52)

But no, so I was at SCAD and I did that, I graduated and I got an internship out in L.A. I knew that, so I grew up in South Jersey, I had interned in New York at Nicktoons, which was so freaking fun. Had a great time there. I feel like that's still like childhood dream check. I also did an internship with a small animation festival at the time called, was that even, my goodness, I'm gonna blank on the name. I'm blanking on it entirely.

Mack Garrison (05:04)

Have

Sure, yeah.

That's all right. Was it like it was

Kirsten (05:22)

Yeah,

Mack Garrison (05:22)

pre like F5 or something like that?

Kirsten (05:24)

it was like so yeah super super super tiny I want to say like Bill Plimpton was one of like the founding members of it like yeah, so But that was animation show the animation show they did a couple years So I entered with those guys super cool so many amazing Mike judge was one of the founders of it, too

Mack Garrison (05:30)

wow, nice.

nice, okay.

Fine, I love that.

Kirsten (05:43)

So great stuff there. So I'm like, you know what? I grew up Northeast. I've been in Savannah. I want to go out to California. I need to get to warmer weather. That was my goal the whole time. Just keep going south. And again, bang that hard right. We're not being a lawyer. We're going to be an artist. We're going to go to LA. So I go out there for my internship and I'm at Digital Kitchen, which at the time is, know, DK. They are making Emmy award winning show series titles. You know, we're talking six feet under.

Mack Garrison (05:52)

Nice.

Right.

Yeah.

Kirsten (06:11)

Was it true blood, like all that stuff. So LA office, I start working as an intern there as a designer. And I'm like, man, I hate this so much. Not DK, but designing. You know, because you're in school and you're creating and that's like, it's so cool. You know, you're doing these peer reviews and they're just like, no, like make what you're feeling. And then that's not the real world.

Mack Garrison (06:12)

Yeah.

Mmm. Sure, of course, but just like the grind. Yeah. Yeah.

no, there is production

timeline stuff has to get done, you know, and you're kind of in the real world of deadlines.

Kirsten (06:39)

There's brand colors,

there's typesetting, you know, it's like there's things that you just have to follow the rules. You can't be like, sorry AT &T, I actually don't like blue, so I'm just gonna not do that. You know, it's like...

Mack Garrison (06:49)

Yeah, right. actually don't want to work on this project. This one doesn't

sound that fun. It's like, okay.

Kirsten (06:54)

So yeah, just I you know, but I was at this amazing creative studio, you know at the time they had four different offices Chicago was the hub I was in LA they had Seattle they had New York They were doing so much cool stuff and they were doing new things and I was in a you know a working studio I feel like that's like the hardest step out of college, right? It's like getting your foot in that door to really see how this stuff is happening and so

I let that internship end. I think I did a good job. I did end, I got hired, not as a designer. I got a job.

Mack Garrison (07:25)

You got the job, which honestly coming out of school,

that's really what you're going for at the time.

Kirsten (07:29)

Yeah,

I was their studio manager for a few months before I went into production with them So that's when I actually started production was as a coordinator at digital kitchen and it was a combination of Right place right time there was a need they were starting to get into way more live-action interstitial work for AT &T at the time

you know, this really cool branded content. They would go out and do all these crazy things like with hosts and we'd be going to Sundance or they'd be going to the Bahamas to swim with sharks and do this behind the scenes there, like just wild stuff. And I was just like, how is this someone's job? Like what? Like what? But I also didn't know anything about production when I was at SCAD. just, you know, when I thought of producing, I thought of...

Mack Garrison (08:04)

You're like, did I win the lottery? This is the coolest gig ever. Yeah.

Kirsten (08:15)

Okay, you have to be making a film or TV series and you have to have money to do that, right? It's like you're bankrolling this, which isn't even, I think, still technically fully the case. You know, I didn't know that you produced commercials. I didn't know that you could do this other thing. So my eyes were really open to this whole other world inside of, you know, motion design, really animation effects.

And I was lucky because I had some really awesome folks there that needed the help. I'm very, very proactive human, still am, still try to be, but was asking questions. And I would do my studio manager stuff, but then I would say, hey, how can I help you? This is cool. How do I learn about this? How do I do this? And then I was doing it well. So they were giving me more of that. And then ultimately, one of my coworkers at the time made a kind of a...

Mack Garrison (08:42)

Mm.

Kirsten (09:04)

I guess on a plea, she spoke to the studio ahead of the time, the MD, and was like, hey, we kind of need this person. We're doing all this work. There's a ton flowing in. It's too much for me. She's, yeah, it went back for me. Exactly. It's like she's already doing it. We like her. Like, what do you say? So I kind of got to slide in and just get into production.

Mack Garrison (09:12)

Yeah, once a bat for you basically.

How fun, do you remember those early days? feel like, you know, talking about scat or going down to Ringling or some of these other schools, you talk to these students and there's always a sense I feel like of a worry of like imposter syndrome, like, gosh, I don't know what I'm doing. Like, am I going to mess up? You know, you're in this kind of new role. You didn't really have that much production experience, any production experience prior from that. How did that, how did that?

that kind of go in the early days? Did you lean on asking the folks around you a lot of questions? Were they more accepting? Like, look, we know you don't know what you're doing, but you're a good person, so we're gonna help teach you. How did that kind of initial interaction go?

Kirsten (09:58)

You know, I think it was a combination. It's so funny because I feel like the folks that I know who are producers, right, who have found this path, and they have all different backgrounds. You know, it's like no one's, I think no one's really been like, oh, I'm to go to school to do this one thing. But I think we all have similar traits in our lives and our personalities. So, you know, it's like I've always been very detail oriented. I've always, you know, taken for me to even just go grocery shopping. It's like a very thorough

Mack Garrison (10:14)

Right.

Kirsten (10:28)

note list of things. It's like, yes.

Mack Garrison (10:29)

There's a list. Are you the type of person that will arrange a list based on the aisles too to make

sure? Of course. Of course.

Kirsten (10:34)

It's categorized. Yes, absolutely.

100%. I got to have a strong flow through that store. You know, I got to get in, get out. I got to prioritize my time to get through and hit my deadline to get to my next store or to get home so my baby can nap at this point. yeah, so like, I feel like we all have these similar traits, right? So I did ask a ton of questions though, if I didn't know how to do something, because there aren't like payroll, booking talent, like things like this. It's just like, I could really mess something up and it's not.

Mack Garrison (10:40)

That's right.

Right.

yeah.

Kirsten (11:04)

worth it for me, you I don't think for anyone to try to solve that on your own. I think there are things for sure. It's like I could look up X or Y. I could look at an old call sheet and say this is how they do this. Look at an old pre-pro book and say, okay great, this is how they organize it. I'm gonna follow this because they have a system in place where, maybe this could be a better system at some point.

Mack Garrison (11:11)

Mm.

Sure.

Right.

Kirsten (11:27)

But

there's things that you can do by just paying attention and looking at those examples ahead. And then, yeah, asking the questions. Because ultimately, if I do it right the first time, it's easier for everyone. exactly. Yeah, because you don't.

Mack Garrison (11:38)

Right, you're saying of a plan of action to continue to follow and you're not having to self doubt yourself then in that instance. So it sounds like basically the word of wisdom

for anyone getting into a new gig, even if it feels like you're a little uncertain, just ask questions. And if you're in a good place, those folks should be supportive around you.

Kirsten (11:53)

Absolutely. It's, you know, it's, it's helping everyone, to teach you how to do it, how to do it correctly. And I say correctly, you know, loosely because everywhere is going to do a different too. So it's like, you know, the way that I learned to, cause also the thing with digital kitchen and that type of production was I was actually going from animation design and all that into live action production, something I had never done. never took a film class at SCAD. I had never been on a set. I don't think like that was my first like, wow. Okay. We are doing this for.

Mack Garrison (12:12)

yeah.

Kirsten (12:23)

or a commercial on TV. So there was a lot of learning. Eventually learned how to bid in that world too and how those rates and crew needs are different, even still, non-union, union, DGA, like the whole gamut. But yeah, so think just the questions, they're so important and we all ask.

Mack Garrison (12:25)

Let's try it.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

So it sounds like when you

were a DK, you had this really great support, know, folks who want to see you succeed, folks who were championing you, and that's gotta give you the confidence to feel like you know what you're doing. So you get in full time with them, it sounds like, right, someone goes to bat for you. What was the, was it a next step that led you over to Scholar? You know, how'd you end up over with them?

Kirsten (12:54)

Mm-hmm.

So I ended up being at DK for about a year and a half, you know, and I was coordinating that whole time. I think it was just a combination of seeing what else was out there. You know, just they, the company while I was there also had shifts. You know, that's a very normal thing. I know it can be scary coming out of school maybe and seeing, you know, you get into a studio, a large, small, an agency, brand, any of it, but there are a bunch of protocols and it's very natural for places to expand, to contract, to, you know, people to move

Mack Garrison (13:29)

Mm-hmm.

Kirsten (13:31)

on people to do that. some of that was starting to shift. They were downsizing a little bit. I had been there a beat. I liked what I was doing but wanted to also see what else was out there. So I did eventually end up kind of going freelance for a beat.

Mack Garrison (13:42)

Sure.

Nice.

Kirsten (13:47)

And I will say I prefer staff. have mad profs to the serial permalancers out there. I just, again, it's a production thing. think I love the structure of knowing my day so much. I just do better in it. And that also took me a minute to figure out. I'm glad I freelanced.

Mack Garrison (13:51)

Hahaha

Sure.

Yeah.

And was that, do think that's the big difference

just for folks who maybe are even considering moving freelance? What do you think was the big difference between a freelance producer versus in-house producer?

Kirsten (14:15)

I mean, I think you get to choose a lot more of what you are working on. It's like if you're on a staff.

You know, for many reasons. One, we know your skill set, right? To your point, our job, you my job is to find those opportunities for not just my creatives, but for the producers too. If someone has a really strong background and effects, but they've never done anything with live action and they really want to learn that, you know, I want to try to find a job that combines that so they can learn that and they can grow, you know, and they can ultimately become a better producer because they know more.

Mack Garrison (14:26)

Sure.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Love that.

Kirsten (14:50)

So yeah, I know, think it's just, it is important to offer that up. And I got totally lost in what we've been talking about there. But...

Mack Garrison (14:57)

it's fine. Well, I just sent you on a tangent because I was curious, know, because they're talking

about producers in-house versus freelance. And so, and so we were talking about, know, you were freelancing a bit, but ultimately it was like you liked being grounded in-house. You just, that was your preference. You recognize right away that you liked that structure. So it sounded like you moved on from being a freelance producer and one was looking specifically to get in-house.

Kirsten (15:03)

Yes.

Correct, yes, and I'm sorry I lost my own sauce there. But no, think yes, it's...

Mack Garrison (15:23)

Now I love this the sauce is an interesting thing look my job I'm gonna send you off

in orbit and then we'll just bring you back around for the goodies of course

Kirsten (15:29)

Thank you. Thank you. Reel me back in.

But yeah, I think it's that compo. It's being able to pick, you know, having a little bit more choice in what you're, again, depends on the studio, but ultimately, ideally having a bit more choice in what you're working on. And I think it's also just the community aspect of being a part of a studio. You know, it's like I've been a scholar for, I think, coming up on my 10th year and, that's to no fault. That's, how insane is that? 10 years? That's wild. Wild! But you know, it's like, that's for a reason. You know, it's like you

Mack Garrison (15:50)

That's amazing. Congratulations. That's no short feat, you know? That's wild.

Kirsten (15:59)

don't

you see people move around and it's all different things. It's growth, it's you know maybe just not a fit for how you are and operate culturally a bunch of stuff. New opportunities in general like to do something that you never thought you'd be able to do but see I think it's that combination there of the structure, the community, and then also just being able to kind of forge a bit more into your growth and where you want to go.

Mack Garrison (16:21)

I love

that and honestly, it's a good segue into a question I had for you. mean, so clearly with this background of freelance, in-house, and just the time and space that you've been in the industry, you know, and you've just seen a lot of change. There's been a lot of change in our industry, even in the short period of time. I'm curious, you know, as you look back kind of over this decade of experience or so, you know, what are you looking forward to? You know, what gets you excited about the future?

that we have for our industry and maybe where some points of concern that you have.

Kirsten (16:54)

That is such a good question. So Max sent me some questions ahead of time because he's a good person. It wasn't just like, surprise, here's questions. And I was like dang, this is going to be a tricky one. And here we are out the gate early on getting into it. is a really great question. you're right. I will say I do feel like.

Mack Garrison (16:59)

I did. Gotta get those good answers, you know?

That's right, warmed you up here for the first 10 minutes or so.

Kirsten (17:17)

maybe not the ground ground level of motion design of this industry of this community, but pretty early days into it. It was only just recently made a major when I was getting ready to graduate. Sure, there were studios out there for me to go to that were starting to implement these skills, but it wasn't what you're seeing now and what's out there in terms of our massive community and all these amazing studios across the world that are just specifically doing straight motion graphics versus mixed media design animation, all that stuff, matching it all together.

Mack Garrison (17:42)

Mm-hmm.

Kirsten (17:47)

You

know, I think what's exciting is all of those new voices. And I think especially too on the scholar side, it's funny, I was just talking to Krista who's so amazing, who's just my guiding light in marketing for all of us. We don't deserve her. But it's, we were just talking, I was like, I have 10 years as a scholar. It's like even at one studio, right? Like seeing.

Mack Garrison (18:02)

haha

Right.

Kirsten (18:09)

our voice change from fledgling, you know, they had been around right before I started, we're gonna be 15 this year, so, you know, which is also holy cow. But seeing how we then, you know, talk about ourselves shift so much in 10 years, right? So I think it is seeing all those new voices out there that are strong, amazing, powerful voices. I think it's seeing that community expand and support each other. You know, it is something where

Mack Garrison (18:16)

Wow, amazing.

Kirsten (18:38)

it there's all these niches right you can find your person it doesn't matter if you're introverted extroverted if you're into this one thing or all of these things it's like I feel like within this community you can find your counterparts and we are this band of misfits you know like we really are

Mack Garrison (18:41)

Yeah.

Yeah. a hundred percent. mean, I feel like motion design in and of

itself is kind of an amalgamation of so many different backgrounds. You know, there was this guy, I I was in school and his, I think his name was Edward Tufte. He was this graphic designer. He organized data sets basically. But one thing he mentioned that I really liked was this idea of a capital T theory. You like start in one place and then get to a point and there's a branch off, right? So maybe it's like, I love graphic design. interesting. Here's motion design.

Kirsten (19:02)

Bye!

Mack Garrison (19:20)

I love motion design. you know what? Maybe I'm a better producer. Let me produce or let me actually become a creative director. And so you start to connect all these teas into your point of just being a collection of misfits and all these different backgrounds. It's problem solvers, it's creatives in our industry is so very that you're right. You can always find another counterpart who's similar to you just because we are so diverse and have so many different backgrounds.

Kirsten (19:41)

100 % and I think even the diversity side of it, it's like, know, me starting out, like I don't think I knew, I knew of like two female creative directors who are still out there crushing it, you know, like, but it's like even that writer, it just, you know, in general, just like the folks that are kind of stepping up and have been, they, you know, they might've started out as designers, but now they've been doing this for 10, 15 years. They are the creative directors, you know, and it's like.

while there might not have been that same availability of mentorship, and that is a huge responsibility, right? It is to kind of guide and help and be there for that next generation of folks coming up. There's more of that now across the board. And not just with women either, just everything. And that is so amazing to see just such a blended community too. I don't know that you see that everywhere.

Mack Garrison (20:31)

Yes.

No, I

totally agree. I think it's, there's so many, to your point, we just have so many more people in this space than we ever had before, which is amazing, right? Cause now you've got all these different voices, all these different perspectives, which we desperately needed for a while because that variety is ultimately what makes the variety work so great. I bet there's a handful of people that are listening to this though, and they're saying like, yeah, that is all great, but it also means it's more of a crowded space than ever before. How the heck do I get into this? I'm curious from your perspective.

Kirsten (20:36)

So that's amazing.

Mack Garrison (21:03)

know, students are always asking, you know, how do I get on a studio's radar or how can I break into the industry? Thinking back to some of those early days when you first got in or even folks reaching out to you today as an EP, you know, what are some things that have stuck out or any advice you could give to someone who maybe wants to break into this space? Like what are some things that they could try or you're like, you know what, I think this is successful if you gave this a go.

Kirsten (21:30)

You know, well, I guess there's a couple of things, right? First and foremost, it's something like going to the Bash, right? Like that is a great way to connect with your, but for real though, it's like you want to, you want to meet up with working industry professionals across the board, right? Like we're all coming from different backgrounds. are staffers, we are freelancers, we are owning studios, we are ad studios, we are leadership, we are ground level. So it's, it's such a mix. So talk to people in real life.

Mack Garrison (21:36)

Hey, there we go. Good plug. Good plug.

Kirsten (21:57)

Ask them, meet them, make a connection, follow up on that connection. know, it's like having that FaceTime is so important. And I feel like, you know, those are the people even now that I still connect with more is like, I've had that one off about, this ramen spot in Austin's amazing, know, like random things. But I'm like, yes, Austin ramen. You know what I mean? It's like this weird, you know what I mean?

Mack Garrison (22:18)

Sure.

That's great. Austin Rommel, you're my go-to now for all illustration projects,

right?

Kirsten (22:25)

But it's

true, like you kind of, just, humanizes it so quickly. And I think that that is something that we just have to remember. It's, know, we're all seeking that no matter where we are at that level of connection. So the Bash is a great way. You know, if there's studios that you love, I mean, when I was first getting into it, again, I tried the internship thing, it worked out. think interning right when you're graduating can be a great gateway because then you are open, right? and internships are not a guarantee that you're going to get hired somewhere. You know, they are for both the intern to figure out.

do I like doing this? Do I like this studio? Does it make sense for me and who I am? And then for the studio to also think of those same things, you know, when it's not always going to be a match and that's totally fine, you know, it's part of it, you know.

But I think finding that internship opportunity out the gate, out of graduating or getting ready to graduate so that you kind of can get that foot in the door. I sent a bunch of cold, you know, even when I was in between stuff, like cold emails. I'm not a cold caller, but you know, it's like, and they weren't just like the same blanket template, you know, where you could tell the name. It's like, take a minute to like think about what you want to do because. Yeah.

Mack Garrison (23:18)

cold emails. Nice.

yeah, and we're all human. Like everyone loves like a pat on the back.

Like, I really love this piece of the project or I love what you did here. You know, I, yeah.

Kirsten (23:36)

clear and it's

It means you know who you're talking to, too. It's not just blanket like, hi, I have done this and I would like to do this. It's like, you're not a robot. So I think it seems like, no one's going to answer. I will say I do really try to answer when people email me. I will take time when I can to talk to people who are getting ready to graduate, have graduated. I would like to say I'm a pretty approachable person. I remember what it's like to not get a response and just like, it's something really hard.

Mack Garrison (24:05)

Sure. Yeah, it's

awful. It's like, look, I'm a human on the other end of this, right?

Kirsten (24:09)

Yeah,

and it's like, I can't answer every email ever, right? But it's like, I do try when I see that, when I can see that on the other side that they've tried. And a big thing too is like, know who you're reaching out to. If you are applying to a job, right? And it says send to jobs at whatever with this subject, follow the directions.

Mack Garrison (24:29)

sure, right, just the simple things.

Kirsten (24:30)

Just follow, don't

email everyone. Don't email PR jobs, the seven EP, just email jobs and put the subject in and put it, cause it's like, that is the first and spell the person's name right. Like I get a lot of Christians out there. Well.

Mack Garrison (24:35)

Ha ha.

yeah, look as, I bet as a Mack I get Mack, I get Mark, I've seen it all.

Kirsten (24:50)

And I know, I work with a Mack who I love who's an Mack, I'm a Collie, and I was typing, you were responding to say, hey, thanks, excited to chat. And I had the MAC and I was like, no Kirsten, wrong Mack, get that K in there. But it's true. It's like I get a lot of “Kristens”, I'll be honest. I don't respond to the emails that say, Kristen, because that's not my name. So was like, know, wrong direction.

Mack Garrison (24:54)

yeah.

Gotta get it.

Oh, a hundred percent, a hundred percent. I'm the same way. It's like, especially if it's, if it's,

know, especially on the new business stuff, I'll get people reaching out all the time, trying to sell me something, which I get, and I try to give everyone, uh, you know, the time of day, but it's like, if it looks, if it looks like it's just templatized, you just copy and paste it. You don't have the ability to spell my name right, or you're totally off in the market on what I even do. You know, it goes back to key takeaway, I think for anyone listening is authenticity. Just be genuine on however you're doing it and meeting in person still matters, especially

Kirsten (25:33)

Yep, exactly.

Mack Garrison (25:36)

in this digital world where I think we're all saturate with digital content, that in-person meeting is so important. know, one question I had for you, just as we were talking, I was thinking about this, is, you know, so interesting with a producer role. I remember I was a creative and I was an animator and I felt like I was pretty good. And then very quickly as I started to kind of grow, I was like, you know, there are better people at this than me.

And that's kind of when I think I started to consider taking on more of a producer and then eventually an EP role. Cause I was like, well, I'm good with clients. I'm good at managing time and getting stuff done. I'm curious from your perspective, who's now been producing for a while, you know, what are some of the key attributes attributes that make up a good producer or someone who's listening is trying to aspire to be an executive producer. What advice would you give them?

Kirsten (26:23)

So, I mean, that's a great one too. I would say, you know, the details, listening, communication, like the biggest part of my job is communicating, right? Being able to clearly communicate, being able to break down hard conversations.

having hard conversations too, especially EP role. It's like we get feedback sometimes or something might be going off the rails and being able to talk to your team and also talk to that client in a way that makes everyone still feel confident in what they're doing without completely ruining the mood to help pivot that shift is so, so important. Strong communication, just showing up and caring.

I'm sure we've all been there. You're on like a daily or a call and someone's just, you know, we all have bad days, right? It's like, you don't know what's going on in someone's life. You have no idea. It could just be whatever, but you know, just showing up and caring and wanting to be there goes so far and can really help shift the whole mood of that team for the day too. You know, just.

Mack Garrison (27:26)

because it is balance

because you're trying to navigate client relationships and creatives. So you're kind this middle ground. It's like, look, I got to protect our creative team, but I also got to get what we need to get done for the client and kind of being able to massage both those directions where appropriate is important.

Kirsten (27:40)

Yeah, no, a thousand percent. it's, think being able to read, you know, a really good producer, I think, and NEP at a production too, can read and adjust how they interact with someone, right? So it's like, depending on which of my creative directors I'm talking to, you know, I might have a different tone or approach or, you

just how I come to them with something because I know that's how they do better with receiving information. I know that they need to talk it out versus like, you know, okay, let's just get into this. Same with clients too. It's like, you know, I tend to be a very, very emotive email or I love an exclamation mark, a smile. Sometimes I'm like, here's the...

Mack Garrison (28:15)

Exclamation mark

period exclamation mark period right you got to the balance in there

Kirsten (28:19)

I'm like, let's pull it back. We've got

like four smile faces in here. Let's just like tone it down. But there's some people I talk to where it's like, that's just not how they want to talk. And so, you know, I, I mirror that, you know, I try to make myself as approachable to them in their process. And I think to your point of being genuine and authentic with that, I'm not muting down who I am, but I'm also allowing them the space to show them that I can meet them there. And I'm not going to necessarily like make them uncomfortable either with how, you know, being like, if they don't want that energy.

Mack Garrison (28:34)

Mm.

No, a hundred percent.

Kirsten (28:49)

I'm gonna stop.

Mack Garrison (28:50)

feel like it's one of those things that, and we were talking a little bit about this, think right before we started recording that, you know, the best practice for becoming a good producer is just to continually put yourself in those situations where you have to navigate it. There isn't always a go-to solution. And sometimes you have to improvise and come up with something and set a standard yourself because you're not sure the answer. And that's okay. I think all about producing the people who really know what they're doing air quotes is

just because they've been in the space for a long time and they've had those different experiences. So it's a mixture of kind of reaching out and talking to other folks, being comfortable, having uncomfortable conversations. How do you practice that? It's probably just going through it, all the different scenarios and just trying to get, like you mentioned earlier, internships or get in early at a place to kind of learn from the people around you.

Kirsten (29:36)

Yeah, I know. mean, that's the best way to do it is just get that actual experience. And I will say, too, it's like I'm a little...

As I'm like, I love staff. The one benefit back to freelance is like, pop it around to a few places. You can see how a bunch of places do it. You can see maybe I'm better in a boutique setting versus a larger setting. Maybe I actually want to go into feature animation and don't want to do commercials at all. But I will say it's like that is the benefit of freelancing is a bit more of that. Seeing a wider net of styles and approaches.

Yeah, I mean with producing, it's like there's no secret handbook. There's no, you know, it's like, there's days where, mean, there probably every day, honestly, I call, it's myself managing EP and I've got a senior producer and another EP that I work with who I just like, I adore. They are the best. could not exist without them.

Mack Garrison (30:14)

Right.

You gotta have those charrettes,

be able to talk it out and work through it. Like how would you handle this, you know?

Kirsten (30:28)

yeah, my peeps, are just

like, but the number of days that I will come to them as they're managing AP and say, hey, I made this real and I feel like it's super wrong. What am I doing? And they're like, did you think about this? Like, that's how it should be. You know, it's like I am I have expertises, but I'm trusting my team around me to and also, you know, rely on what they're great at or what they might be seeing that I'm not thinking about. So I think, you know, it doesn't mean just, you know, closer to the top that I don't

have people. I go to those around me still.

Mack Garrison (31:00)

Oh yeah. 100

% having that little community around you, having some core people. Honestly, even my wife, Molly, I talk to her all the time about things. She's not even in my industry, you know, but it's always just good to get opinions on various things. think something that our industry, you know, just thinking about opinions and making decisions, it's, it can be a stressful place. I mean, it is a stressful industry. Stuff needs to be turned around really quick. There's last minute asks, there's tight deadlines and big pressures and big deliverables.

And so something that I've seen creep up more and more often is burnout. I think everyone in the creative space, whether you're a student or have been in this industry for 10 plus years has navigated burnout at some point in their life. I'm curious from your perspective, as that's creeped up in your life, how do you navigate that? Any tricks that you have found when you feel like, I'm feeling a bit burned out.

Kirsten (31:36)

Mm.

I mean, you know, I think you totally, it exists everywhere, every industry, I think too. You know, the big one and where I notice it, boundaries, you know, I feel like that's the thing that has become more of something that we all talk about, is like boundaries and setting them.

But yeah, you this is a job. You have a life outside of this, right? So it's twofold. You know, I work at an amazing studio with amazing people, but I also need to make space. And for me to do my job well, I need to have that clear head space. So if I don't, I can feel myself maybe getting shorter, maybe not thinking things through, maybe making rash decisions. so stepping away for a minute, you know, taking a mental health day where I just read a book, trying to get outside and go

Mack Garrison (32:29)

Mmm.

Kirsten (32:40)

on a walk, having to find working hours, not saying that you email me after 6.30 and I'm going to kick you to the curb. But it's like really trying to uphold that and also trying to.

Mack Garrison (32:47)

Right

Kirsten (32:52)

to look out at that for other people too. So it's like a bad habit I was getting into, right? It's like, I would be like, okay, I'm trying to be on Slack from nine to six, right? And then I would, as I've reevaluated my boundaries with a new baby, cause that's a whole other fun journey. I had boundaries, I was doing really great. And then, know, Daisy came into the scene and was like, yo, what's up mom? I'm a toddler, my rules. And I was like, cool, cool, cool. I got this. But I'm currently actually trying to re-figure

Mack Garrison (33:01)

Sure.

then Daisy came in and it was like, yeah, that was it. That's right.

Kirsten (33:22)

what are the boundaries that I need to show up for her but also to show up for my studio and for my people. know, something I found myself getting into the habit of because I was kind of shifting.

how I was working just to do, know, it's like, I joke, she's like my elder baby. She goes to bed at like 630. I'm just like, what is your wife? Like you're not even getting blue plate special. But you know, it's like, we're working at that time. So I have to step away to do, you know, I do step away to do dinner and bath time and get her ready for bed. And I come back and I was finding myself sending these like slacks like later. And I'd be like, Kirsten, you're breaking the rule that you set for yourself. Like, why are you slacking people at 9 p.m.? That is just straight rude. So I've been trying to really remind myself so I can like get it out to schedule my slacks.

Mack Garrison (33:39)

my gosh, I love that.

Yeah.

Kirsten (34:04)

which is such like a simple silly thing to say out loud, But, or schedule my emails. But I'm really trying, yeah.

Mack Garrison (34:04)

Mmm.

But it helps everybody, not only is it helping you

temper expectations of what should be done in a day, but you're also alleviating your team members. Because as their manager or boss, if they're getting a ping from you, I'm sure you're like, they could be in the middle of dinner, they see a ping come through, do I need to go respond that? So that planning is helping them as well.

Kirsten (34:19)

Absolutely.

Yeah, it's exactly. I remember what that's like, too, being like, I probably should respond to this email. And I think that's the other thing, too, is like, I say it a lot to, I feel like, way too many people. deadlines are important, right? It's like, there are times when we are delivering a job. And it needs to go out that day, because that's the day we've all chosen. there are media buys, and there are things like that, right? If we've promised we're going to post, we need to do that. We need to follow through. I'm not saying you should just disregard all that, but.

Mack Garrison (34:46)

Alright.

Kirsten (34:55)

what we are doing, you know, I'm not out here saving lives. So if, if, know, that slack can get answered the next day, it's probably nothing that pressing. If it really was, I would call you, would text you, you know? So I think it is giving a little bit of, of grace to yourself. That's another thing I'm really working on right now is giving myself grace. I feel like I try to give grace to others and I'm trying to give myself a bit more grace this year.

Mack Garrison (35:08)

Ha ha ha.

Mm-mm.

I love that.

reminds me of yeah, it reminds me of like some, Brene Brown quote, right? Where it's like, I think it was daring to lead. Maybe she speaks about how, look, you're in the arena, you're doing best. You're showing up. You know, we are, we are our own best critic. Or sometimes we lean into what the critics are saying. When at the end of the day, it's like, look, you can only do so much. You're doing the best you can with the information you have and you're moving things forward. You know, perfection, hippest progress. I'm doing my best and we got to give each of ourselves a little bit more grace accordingly. So I think that's really well said.

Kirsten (35:24)

and not be as hard on myself.

Mm-hmm.

Thank

Mack Garrison (35:54)

Well, let's see, we're coming up here on time. Maybe we can leave it here on this last question, just thinking about, you know, for those that maybe haven't been familiar with you or scholars work until this conversation and thinking about the Bash coming up, what could they expect from your talk at the Bash? What do you, you have any early inklings of what you might be hitting on?

Kirsten (36:14)

I know that's another I'm like, I have a lot of ideas that I need to Condense into an idea. But no, I mean I want to talk about I Do want to talk about the importance of our community and the voices in our community, you know I do want to talk about things like mental health and boundaries and How you can't be successful unless you are helping yourself first You know, I want to talk about just that larger connection as a whole

Mack Garrison (36:20)

haha

Kirsten (36:43)

across what we all do and how inviting all that in, inviting all these different people and just makes us better. know, it's like we've been talking about the this being a more crowded space right now, right? And it's like, it's interesting to see these studios that do amazing work, even like kind of like reinventing how they do it, you know, like Tendril and Builders Club and Future Deluxe creating this like merge thing. Hit this or like, you know, buck with giant ant or residency. It's like, you know, I think that

Mack Garrison (37:00)

Mmm.

Yeah.

Kirsten (37:12)

even though we compete, I think it's like helping others. And in terms of what you're gonna get, I think this is a pretty good example. I am a human to default. feel like I'm hopefully slightly fun, but also like, I don't know, what I just saw energy. mean, Mack could see me talk once before and I just, I...

I don't know, this is just who I am. I'm trying to be, I just try to be a genuine, authentic human. I'm a little bit out there in a fun way, I hope. And, you know, I hope you guys

Mack Garrison (37:42)

All right. I think that about does it here with Kirsten. So glad that we got to talk today. We got to chalk it up and talk today. This has been so fun. So pumped to have you at the Dash Bash this summer. And if you haven't gotten a ticket yet,

What are you waiting for? Now's the time. You know how great Scholar is. You know how great Kirsten is. You know how great the Dash Bash is. Let's do it. Let's get hanging out.

Kirsten (38:01)

Thanks, Mack. I'm super excited. I can't wait to see you guys in June!