Kirsten Noll Interview
Mack Garrison interviews Kirsten Knoll, an executive producer at Scholar, who shares her journey from a young artist to a successful producer in the motion design industry. Kirsten discusses her educational background, early career experiences, and the importance of community and mental health in the creative field. She offers valuable insights for aspiring creatives on breaking into the industry, the differences between freelancing and in-house production, and the key attributes of a successful producer. The conversation also touches on the challenges of burnout and the significance of setting boundaries in a demanding industry.
Takeaways
Kirsten Knoll is an executive producer at Scholar with a diverse background in animation and design.
She emphasizes the importance of community and support in the creative industry.
Kirsten's journey includes a transition from design to production, highlighting the need for adaptability.
Asking questions and seeking help is crucial for success in the early stages of a career.
Freelancing offers exposure to different styles and approaches, but in-house work provides structure.
The motion design industry has evolved significantly, with more voices and opportunities than ever before.
Networking and building relationships are essential for breaking into the industry.
Successful producers must possess strong communication skills and the ability to navigate difficult conversations.
Setting boundaries and managing stress are vital for preventing burnout in the creative field.
Kirsten plans to discuss mental health and community support at the Dash Bash.
Chapters
00:00Introduction to Kirsten Knoll and Her Journey
03:10Early Experiences and Education in Animation
05:55Transitioning from Design to Production
09:04Navigating Early Career Challenges
11:53Freelancing vs. In-House Production
14:56Reflections on a Decade in the Industry
16:54The Evolution of Motion Design
21:03Breaking into the Industry
26:01Key Attributes of a Producer
30:58Navigating Burnout and Setting Boundaries
35:54Community and Authenticity in the Industry
38:03New Chapter
Transcript:
Mack Garrison (00:00)
Hey, what's up y'all? Mack Garrison here with Dash Studio and we've got another round of speaker interviews for the Dash Bash and I'm joined by Kirsten Knoll. Kirsten is a Los Angeles based managing executive producer, heading up the award winning creative production studio Scholar with extensive experience working with top tier industry defining brands. She's passionate about design driven, excuse me, design driven and multidisciplinary narratives. Her diverse portfolio has brought her around the world from Eastern Europe to Central America.
with production expertise in the full gamut of pipelines, including live action, design, animation, and VFX. What does Kirsten not do? Welcome to the show, Kirsten. So glad to have you here. Of course, I don't even know if this is a podcast, it's a vidcast. Some people were listening, some people were watching, but yeah, super pumped to have you here. The amazing work that you all do at Scholar. We're so pumped to have you at the Bash to jump into this.
Kirsten (00:39)
Thank you for having me back!
Thank you, thank you. I will keep this here and say I'm not cool, so I don't know what to call it either. And that's my initial plug for why you should come and see me is I'm super not
Mack Garrison (00:57)
Hahaha
Kirsten (01:02)
saying, hi. So I'm not cool, I'm not hip, I know this about myself. No, I have no idea what to call it. I feel like someone will.
Mack Garrison (01:02)
Come see me talk, I'm not very cool.
Well, I love it. mean,
honestly, we're all kind of a little unhip and kind of nerdy to be in the creative and motion design animation space anyway. You need to be a little quirky. So I think honestly, it's apropos and fitting for us. yeah, maybe we can just jump in it right off the bat. I'd love for you to give a little bit of background on kind of how you got into this space. I'm always curious what are some of folks earliest animation memories, production memories and kind of how you got into this space.
Kirsten (01:18)
true.
It's true.
So that's a great, great question to kick it in with. So let's see, I am an artist by trade. I've always been into art ever since I was little. I feel like I did all the things to be fair, music, dance, drawing, all of it, my poor mother running me everywhere.
Mack Garrison (01:54)
running you everywhere, always going to the store buying different things
Kirsten (01:57)
Exactly,
Mack Garrison (01:57)
basically.
Kirsten (01:57)
just she's like, please, please stop. Not really. She's like very, both my parents, very encouraging of the arts. My sister is also an artist, a producer as well. So I feel like that's the constant question too, is like, how did we end up with two producers? No one else in our family has taken a creative path. Like it's like, have like, know, attorneys and that type of thing. So think that we're all just like, we took a hard left.
Mack Garrison (02:10)
Hahaha
that's so funny. Does the family
at least understand what producing is at this point? Like, have you had enough Thanksgivings that they get it? Okay, that's great.
Kirsten (02:23)
Yes. Yes, they
do for the most part. My mom's pretty good, especially my mom about, you no, this is actually what she did. And this is what she made very, very proud to always texting me, did you make this one? And I'm like, yeah, mom, I did, I did. Or no, no, we didn't. And then she's like, well.
Mack Garrison (02:38)
You're like, we actually lost that bed,
Mom. Thank you.
Kirsten (02:39)
And she's like,
well, it was done well. And I'm like, yeah, OK, cool, rub it in. But no, so I went to art school. I went to SCAD in Savannah, Georgia. And I loved it. When I first started up at SCAD, I wasn't sure what I was going to major in. I was really into graphic design. And I've always loved animation. So I ended up, think it's like by your end of your first year, you have to pick your major. And so I ended up doing animation. Traditional 2D cell animation was what I decided I wanted to do with my life.
And then as I was there, I think I at one point added on the graphic design minor. And then at some point along the way, they created a new major, which has changed names twice now. So I'm gonna use the old, old one, which I think is like very long. was like motion media design, some extremely long, so many characters. Really, really flowed. Yeah, really flowed.
Mack Garrison (03:29)
really setting y'all up for success when folks could name the major.
Kirsten (03:35)
But I remember talking to some folks and they were like, you know, it's like graphic design, but it moves, which also is like, yes, but no. This is early days, pioneer days of what we do now. But I took a few classes and I was like, oh, I like this. So that's kind of when I tapped into the motion design side of things. So I ended up double majoring. I spent five years there, which, you I loved every moment of it. I really did. You know, I'm still so close. I still get to work with so many people that I graduated with, that I was in class with, that
Mack Garrison (03:42)
Sure, right.
Nice.
Kirsten (04:05)
you know, friends of friends, so it's like, I love that part of it too, just seeing us all out there doing it, you know, just like succeeding. Good job all of us, high five. We're art kids that got jobs.
Mack Garrison (04:11)
Yeah.
Yeah, honestly, you're way better. My graduating class, I don't know if
half of them are even in my field, to be honest with you. So you're already off to a great start having peers that are still in here.
Kirsten (04:24)
See,
totally right. I know we're crushing it gang. We're crushing it. I will not say what year I graduated because I'm not trying to date myself but I know I already did it.
Mack Garrison (04:32)
Just by the fact that you're describing when motion graphics came out, know that you're
my age at least because I feel like I was a founding member of whatever they were calling motion graphics.
Kirsten (04:41)
Totally, whatever it was. I said
I'm not cool and I said I started at the beginning. Yes. I know I'm doing a really good job.
Mack Garrison (04:45)
Yeah, sell it really hard here, Kirsten.
Kirsten (04:52)
But no, so I was at SCAD and I did that, I graduated and I got an internship out in L.A. I knew that, so I grew up in South Jersey, I had interned in New York at Nicktoons, which was so freaking fun. Had a great time there. I feel like that's still like childhood dream check. I also did an internship with a small animation festival at the time called, was that even, my goodness, I'm gonna blank on the name. I'm blanking on it entirely.
Mack Garrison (05:04)
Have
Sure, yeah.
That's all right. Was it like it was
Kirsten (05:22)
Yeah,
Mack Garrison (05:22)
pre like F5 or something like that?
Kirsten (05:24)
it was like so yeah super super super tiny I want to say like Bill Plimpton was one of like the founding members of it like yeah, so But that was animation show the animation show they did a couple years So I entered with those guys super cool so many amazing Mike judge was one of the founders of it, too
Mack Garrison (05:30)
wow, nice.
nice, okay.
Fine, I love that.
Kirsten (05:43)
So great stuff there. So I'm like, you know what? I grew up Northeast. I've been in Savannah. I want to go out to California. I need to get to warmer weather. That was my goal the whole time. Just keep going south. And again, bang that hard right. We're not being a lawyer. We're going to be an artist. We're going to go to LA. So I go out there for my internship and I'm at Digital Kitchen, which at the time is, know, DK. They are making Emmy award winning show series titles. You know, we're talking six feet under.
Mack Garrison (05:52)
Nice.
Right.
Yeah.
Kirsten (06:11)
Was it true blood, like all that stuff. So LA office, I start working as an intern there as a designer. And I'm like, man, I hate this so much. Not DK, but designing. You know, because you're in school and you're creating and that's like, it's so cool. You know, you're doing these peer reviews and they're just like, no, like make what you're feeling. And then that's not the real world.
Mack Garrison (06:12)
Yeah.
Mmm. Sure, of course, but just like the grind. Yeah. Yeah.
no, there is production
timeline stuff has to get done, you know, and you're kind of in the real world of deadlines.
Kirsten (06:39)
There's brand colors,
there's typesetting, you know, it's like there's things that you just have to follow the rules. You can't be like, sorry AT &T, I actually don't like blue, so I'm just gonna not do that. You know, it's like...
Mack Garrison (06:49)
Yeah, right. actually don't want to work on this project. This one doesn't
sound that fun. It's like, okay.
Kirsten (06:54)
So yeah, just I you know, but I was at this amazing creative studio, you know at the time they had four different offices Chicago was the hub I was in LA they had Seattle they had New York They were doing so much cool stuff and they were doing new things and I was in a you know a working studio I feel like that's like the hardest step out of college, right? It's like getting your foot in that door to really see how this stuff is happening and so
I let that internship end. I think I did a good job. I did end, I got hired, not as a designer. I got a job.
Mack Garrison (07:25)
You got the job, which honestly coming out of school,
that's really what you're going for at the time.
Kirsten (07:29)
Yeah,
I was their studio manager for a few months before I went into production with them So that's when I actually started production was as a coordinator at digital kitchen and it was a combination of Right place right time there was a need they were starting to get into way more live-action interstitial work for AT &T at the time
you know, this really cool branded content. They would go out and do all these crazy things like with hosts and we'd be going to Sundance or they'd be going to the Bahamas to swim with sharks and do this behind the scenes there, like just wild stuff. And I was just like, how is this someone's job? Like what? Like what? But I also didn't know anything about production when I was at SCAD. just, you know, when I thought of producing, I thought of...
Mack Garrison (08:04)
You're like, did I win the lottery? This is the coolest gig ever. Yeah.
Kirsten (08:15)
Okay, you have to be making a film or TV series and you have to have money to do that, right? It's like you're bankrolling this, which isn't even, I think, still technically fully the case. You know, I didn't know that you produced commercials. I didn't know that you could do this other thing. So my eyes were really open to this whole other world inside of, you know, motion design, really animation effects.
And I was lucky because I had some really awesome folks there that needed the help. I'm very, very proactive human, still am, still try to be, but was asking questions. And I would do my studio manager stuff, but then I would say, hey, how can I help you? This is cool. How do I learn about this? How do I do this? And then I was doing it well. So they were giving me more of that. And then ultimately, one of my coworkers at the time made a kind of a...
Mack Garrison (08:42)
Mm.
Kirsten (09:04)
I guess on a plea, she spoke to the studio ahead of the time, the MD, and was like, hey, we kind of need this person. We're doing all this work. There's a ton flowing in. It's too much for me. She's, yeah, it went back for me. Exactly. It's like she's already doing it. We like her. Like, what do you say? So I kind of got to slide in and just get into production.
Mack Garrison (09:12)
Yeah, once a bat for you basically.
How fun, do you remember those early days? feel like, you know, talking about scat or going down to Ringling or some of these other schools, you talk to these students and there's always a sense I feel like of a worry of like imposter syndrome, like, gosh, I don't know what I'm doing. Like, am I going to mess up? You know, you're in this kind of new role. You didn't really have that much production experience, any production experience prior from that. How did that, how did that?
that kind of go in the early days? Did you lean on asking the folks around you a lot of questions? Were they more accepting? Like, look, we know you don't know what you're doing, but you're a good person, so we're gonna help teach you. How did that kind of initial interaction go?
Kirsten (09:58)
You know, I think it was a combination. It's so funny because I feel like the folks that I know who are producers, right, who have found this path, and they have all different backgrounds. You know, it's like no one's, I think no one's really been like, oh, I'm to go to school to do this one thing. But I think we all have similar traits in our lives and our personalities. So, you know, it's like I've always been very detail oriented. I've always, you know, taken for me to even just go grocery shopping. It's like a very thorough
Mack Garrison (10:14)
Right.
Kirsten (10:28)
note list of things. It's like, yes.
Mack Garrison (10:29)
There's a list. Are you the type of person that will arrange a list based on the aisles too to make
sure? Of course. Of course.
Kirsten (10:34)
It's categorized. Yes, absolutely.
100%. I got to have a strong flow through that store. You know, I got to get in, get out. I got to prioritize my time to get through and hit my deadline to get to my next store or to get home so my baby can nap at this point. yeah, so like, I feel like we all have these similar traits, right? So I did ask a ton of questions though, if I didn't know how to do something, because there aren't like payroll, booking talent, like things like this. It's just like, I could really mess something up and it's not.
Mack Garrison (10:40)
That's right.
Right.
yeah.
Kirsten (11:04)
worth it for me, you I don't think for anyone to try to solve that on your own. I think there are things for sure. It's like I could look up X or Y. I could look at an old call sheet and say this is how they do this. Look at an old pre-pro book and say, okay great, this is how they organize it. I'm gonna follow this because they have a system in place where, maybe this could be a better system at some point.
Mack Garrison (11:11)
Mm.
Sure.
Right.
Kirsten (11:27)
But
there's things that you can do by just paying attention and looking at those examples ahead. And then, yeah, asking the questions. Because ultimately, if I do it right the first time, it's easier for everyone. exactly. Yeah, because you don't.
Mack Garrison (11:38)
Right, you're saying of a plan of action to continue to follow and you're not having to self doubt yourself then in that instance. So it sounds like basically the word of wisdom
for anyone getting into a new gig, even if it feels like you're a little uncertain, just ask questions. And if you're in a good place, those folks should be supportive around you.
Kirsten (11:53)
Absolutely. It's, you know, it's, it's helping everyone, to teach you how to do it, how to do it correctly. And I say correctly, you know, loosely because everywhere is going to do a different too. So it's like, you know, the way that I learned to, cause also the thing with digital kitchen and that type of production was I was actually going from animation design and all that into live action production, something I had never done. never took a film class at SCAD. I had never been on a set. I don't think like that was my first like, wow. Okay. We are doing this for.
Mack Garrison (12:12)
yeah.
Kirsten (12:23)
or a commercial on TV. So there was a lot of learning. Eventually learned how to bid in that world too and how those rates and crew needs are different, even still, non-union, union, DGA, like the whole gamut. But yeah, so think just the questions, they're so important and we all ask.
Mack Garrison (12:25)
Let's try it.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
So it sounds like when you
were a DK, you had this really great support, know, folks who want to see you succeed, folks who were championing you, and that's gotta give you the confidence to feel like you know what you're doing. So you get in full time with them, it sounds like, right, someone goes to bat for you. What was the, was it a next step that led you over to Scholar? You know, how'd you end up over with them?
Kirsten (12:54)
Mm-hmm.
So I ended up being at DK for about a year and a half, you know, and I was coordinating that whole time. I think it was just a combination of seeing what else was out there. You know, just they, the company while I was there also had shifts. You know, that's a very normal thing. I know it can be scary coming out of school maybe and seeing, you know, you get into a studio, a large, small, an agency, brand, any of it, but there are a bunch of protocols and it's very natural for places to expand, to contract, to, you know, people to move
Mack Garrison (13:29)
Mm-hmm.
Kirsten (13:31)
on people to do that. some of that was starting to shift. They were downsizing a little bit. I had been there a beat. I liked what I was doing but wanted to also see what else was out there. So I did eventually end up kind of going freelance for a beat.
Mack Garrison (13:42)
Sure.
Nice.
Kirsten (13:47)
And I will say I prefer staff. have mad profs to the serial permalancers out there. I just, again, it's a production thing. think I love the structure of knowing my day so much. I just do better in it. And that also took me a minute to figure out. I'm glad I freelanced.
Mack Garrison (13:51)
Hahaha
Sure.
Yeah.
And was that, do think that's the big difference
just for folks who maybe are even considering moving freelance? What do you think was the big difference between a freelance producer versus in-house producer?
Kirsten (14:15)
I mean, I think you get to choose a lot more of what you are working on. It's like if you're on a staff.
You know, for many reasons. One, we know your skill set, right? To your point, our job, you my job is to find those opportunities for not just my creatives, but for the producers too. If someone has a really strong background and effects, but they've never done anything with live action and they really want to learn that, you know, I want to try to find a job that combines that so they can learn that and they can grow, you know, and they can ultimately become a better producer because they know more.
Mack Garrison (14:26)
Sure.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Love that.
Kirsten (14:50)
So yeah, I know, think it's just, it is important to offer that up. And I got totally lost in what we've been talking about there. But...
Mack Garrison (14:57)
it's fine. Well, I just sent you on a tangent because I was curious, know, because they're talking
about producers in-house versus freelance. And so, and so we were talking about, know, you were freelancing a bit, but ultimately it was like you liked being grounded in-house. You just, that was your preference. You recognize right away that you liked that structure. So it sounded like you moved on from being a freelance producer and one was looking specifically to get in-house.
Kirsten (15:03)
Yes.
Correct, yes, and I'm sorry I lost my own sauce there. But no, think yes, it's...
Mack Garrison (15:23)
Now I love this the sauce is an interesting thing look my job I'm gonna send you off
in orbit and then we'll just bring you back around for the goodies of course
Kirsten (15:29)
Thank you. Thank you. Reel me back in.
But yeah, I think it's that compo. It's being able to pick, you know, having a little bit more choice in what you're, again, depends on the studio, but ultimately, ideally having a bit more choice in what you're working on. And I think it's also just the community aspect of being a part of a studio. You know, it's like I've been a scholar for, I think, coming up on my 10th year and, that's to no fault. That's, how insane is that? 10 years? That's wild. Wild! But you know, it's like, that's for a reason. You know, it's like you
Mack Garrison (15:50)
That's amazing. Congratulations. That's no short feat, you know? That's wild.
Kirsten (15:59)
don't
you see people move around and it's all different things. It's growth, it's you know maybe just not a fit for how you are and operate culturally a bunch of stuff. New opportunities in general like to do something that you never thought you'd be able to do but see I think it's that combination there of the structure, the community, and then also just being able to kind of forge a bit more into your growth and where you want to go.
Mack Garrison (16:21)
I love
that and honestly, it's a good segue into a question I had for you. mean, so clearly with this background of freelance, in-house, and just the time and space that you've been in the industry, you know, and you've just seen a lot of change. There's been a lot of change in our industry, even in the short period of time. I'm curious, you know, as you look back kind of over this decade of experience or so, you know, what are you looking forward to? You know, what gets you excited about the future?
that we have for our industry and maybe where some points of concern that you have.
Kirsten (16:54)
That is such a good question. So Max sent me some questions ahead of time because he's a good person. It wasn't just like, surprise, here's questions. And I was like dang, this is going to be a tricky one. And here we are out the gate early on getting into it. is a really great question. you're right. I will say I do feel like.
Mack Garrison (16:59)
I did. Gotta get those good answers, you know?
That's right, warmed you up here for the first 10 minutes or so.
Kirsten (17:17)
maybe not the ground ground level of motion design of this industry of this community, but pretty early days into it. It was only just recently made a major when I was getting ready to graduate. Sure, there were studios out there for me to go to that were starting to implement these skills, but it wasn't what you're seeing now and what's out there in terms of our massive community and all these amazing studios across the world that are just specifically doing straight motion graphics versus mixed media design animation, all that stuff, matching it all together.
Mack Garrison (17:42)
Mm-hmm.
Kirsten (17:47)
You
know, I think what's exciting is all of those new voices. And I think especially too on the scholar side, it's funny, I was just talking to Krista who's so amazing, who's just my guiding light in marketing for all of us. We don't deserve her. But it's, we were just talking, I was like, I have 10 years as a scholar. It's like even at one studio, right? Like seeing.
Mack Garrison (18:02)
haha
Right.
Kirsten (18:09)
our voice change from fledgling, you know, they had been around right before I started, we're gonna be 15 this year, so, you know, which is also holy cow. But seeing how we then, you know, talk about ourselves shift so much in 10 years, right? So I think it is seeing all those new voices out there that are strong, amazing, powerful voices. I think it's seeing that community expand and support each other. You know, it is something where
Mack Garrison (18:16)
Wow, amazing.
Kirsten (18:38)
it there's all these niches right you can find your person it doesn't matter if you're introverted extroverted if you're into this one thing or all of these things it's like I feel like within this community you can find your counterparts and we are this band of misfits you know like we really are
Mack Garrison (18:41)
Yeah.
Yeah. a hundred percent. mean, I feel like motion design in and of
itself is kind of an amalgamation of so many different backgrounds. You know, there was this guy, I I was in school and his, I think his name was Edward Tufte. He was this graphic designer. He organized data sets basically. But one thing he mentioned that I really liked was this idea of a capital T theory. You like start in one place and then get to a point and there's a branch off, right? So maybe it's like, I love graphic design. interesting. Here's motion design.
Kirsten (19:02)
Bye!
Mack Garrison (19:20)
I love motion design. you know what? Maybe I'm a better producer. Let me produce or let me actually become a creative director. And so you start to connect all these teas into your point of just being a collection of misfits and all these different backgrounds. It's problem solvers, it's creatives in our industry is so very that you're right. You can always find another counterpart who's similar to you just because we are so diverse and have so many different backgrounds.
Kirsten (19:41)
100 % and I think even the diversity side of it, it's like, know, me starting out, like I don't think I knew, I knew of like two female creative directors who are still out there crushing it, you know, like, but it's like even that writer, it just, you know, in general, just like the folks that are kind of stepping up and have been, they, you know, they might've started out as designers, but now they've been doing this for 10, 15 years. They are the creative directors, you know, and it's like.
while there might not have been that same availability of mentorship, and that is a huge responsibility, right? It is to kind of guide and help and be there for that next generation of folks coming up. There's more of that now across the board. And not just with women either, just everything. And that is so amazing to see just such a blended community too. I don't know that you see that everywhere.
Mack Garrison (20:31)
Yes.
No, I
totally agree. I think it's, there's so many, to your point, we just have so many more people in this space than we ever had before, which is amazing, right? Cause now you've got all these different voices, all these different perspectives, which we desperately needed for a while because that variety is ultimately what makes the variety work so great. I bet there's a handful of people that are listening to this though, and they're saying like, yeah, that is all great, but it also means it's more of a crowded space than ever before. How the heck do I get into this? I'm curious from your perspective.
Kirsten (20:36)
So that's amazing.
Mack Garrison (21:03)
know, students are always asking, you know, how do I get on a studio's radar or how can I break into the industry? Thinking back to some of those early days when you first got in or even folks reaching out to you today as an EP, you know, what are some things that have stuck out or any advice you could give to someone who maybe wants to break into this space? Like what are some things that they could try or you're like, you know what, I think this is successful if you gave this a go.
Kirsten (21:30)
You know, well, I guess there's a couple of things, right? First and foremost, it's something like going to the Bash, right? Like that is a great way to connect with your, but for real though, it's like you want to, you want to meet up with working industry professionals across the board, right? Like we're all coming from different backgrounds. are staffers, we are freelancers, we are owning studios, we are ad studios, we are leadership, we are ground level. So it's, it's such a mix. So talk to people in real life.
Mack Garrison (21:36)
Hey, there we go. Good plug. Good plug.
Kirsten (21:57)
Ask them, meet them, make a connection, follow up on that connection. know, it's like having that FaceTime is so important. And I feel like, you know, those are the people even now that I still connect with more is like, I've had that one off about, this ramen spot in Austin's amazing, know, like random things. But I'm like, yes, Austin ramen. You know what I mean? It's like this weird, you know what I mean?
Mack Garrison (22:18)
Sure.
That's great. Austin Rommel, you're my go-to now for all illustration projects,
right?
Kirsten (22:25)
But it's
true, like you kind of, just, humanizes it so quickly. And I think that that is something that we just have to remember. It's, know, we're all seeking that no matter where we are at that level of connection. So the Bash is a great way. You know, if there's studios that you love, I mean, when I was first getting into it, again, I tried the internship thing, it worked out. think interning right when you're graduating can be a great gateway because then you are open, right? and internships are not a guarantee that you're going to get hired somewhere. You know, they are for both the intern to figure out.
do I like doing this? Do I like this studio? Does it make sense for me and who I am? And then for the studio to also think of those same things, you know, when it's not always going to be a match and that's totally fine, you know, it's part of it, you know.
But I think finding that internship opportunity out the gate, out of graduating or getting ready to graduate so that you kind of can get that foot in the door. I sent a bunch of cold, you know, even when I was in between stuff, like cold emails. I'm not a cold caller, but you know, it's like, and they weren't just like the same blanket template, you know, where you could tell the name. It's like, take a minute to like think about what you want to do because. Yeah.
Mack Garrison (23:18)
cold emails. Nice.
yeah, and we're all human. Like everyone loves like a pat on the back.
Like, I really love this piece of the project or I love what you did here. You know, I, yeah.
Kirsten (23:36)
clear and it's
It means you know who you're talking to, too. It's not just blanket like, hi, I have done this and I would like to do this. It's like, you're not a robot. So I think it seems like, no one's going to answer. I will say I do really try to answer when people email me. I will take time when I can to talk to people who are getting ready to graduate, have graduated. I would like to say I'm a pretty approachable person. I remember what it's like to not get a response and just like, it's something really hard.
Mack Garrison (24:05)
Sure. Yeah, it's
awful. It's like, look, I'm a human on the other end of this, right?
Kirsten (24:09)
Yeah,
and it's like, I can't answer every email ever, right? But it's like, I do try when I see that, when I can see that on the other side that they've tried. And a big thing too is like, know who you're reaching out to. If you are applying to a job, right? And it says send to jobs at whatever with this subject, follow the directions.
Mack Garrison (24:29)
sure, right, just the simple things.
Kirsten (24:30)
Just follow, don't
email everyone. Don't email PR jobs, the seven EP, just email jobs and put the subject in and put it, cause it's like, that is the first and spell the person's name right. Like I get a lot of Christians out there. Well.
Mack Garrison (24:35)
Ha ha.
yeah, look as, I bet as a Mack I get Mack, I get Mark, I've seen it all.
Kirsten (24:50)
And I know
I work with a Mack who I love who's an MAC, I'm a Collie, and I was typing, you were responding to say, hey, thanks, excited to chat. And I had the MAC and I was like, no Kirsten, wrong Mack, get that K in there. But it's true. It's like I get a lot of Kristens, I'll be honest. I don't respond to the emails that say, Kristen, because that's not my name. So was like, know, wrong direction.
Mack Garrison (24:54)
yeah.
Gotta get it.
Oh, a hundred percent, a hundred percent. I'm the same way. It's like, especially if it's, if it's,
know, especially on the new business stuff, I'll get people reaching out all the time, trying to sell me something, which I get, and I try to give everyone, uh, you know, the time of day, but it's like, if it looks, if it looks like it's just templatized, you just copy and paste it. You don't have the ability to spell my name right, or you're totally off in the market on what I even do. You know, it goes back to key takeaway, I think for anyone listening is authenticity. Just be genuine on however you're doing it and meeting in person still matters, especially
Kirsten (25:33)
Yep, exactly.
Mack Garrison (25:36)
in this digital world where I think we're all saturate with digital content, that in-person meeting is so important. know, one question I had for you, just as we were talking, I was thinking about this, is, you know, so interesting with a producer role. I remember I was a creative and I was an animator and I felt like I was pretty good. And then very quickly as I started to kind of grow, I was like, you know, there are better people at this than me.
And that's kind of when I think I started to consider taking on more of a producer and then eventually an EP role. Cause I was like, well, I'm good with clients. I'm good at managing time and getting stuff done. I'm curious from your perspective, who's now been producing for a while, you know, what are some of the key attributes attributes that make up a good producer or someone who's listening is trying to aspire to be an executive producer. What advice would you give them?
Kirsten (26:23)
So, I mean, that's a great one too. I would say, you know, the details, listening, communication, like the biggest part of my job is communicating, right? Being able to clearly communicate, being able to break down hard conversations.
having hard conversations too, especially EP role. It's like we get feedback sometimes or something might be going off the rails and being able to talk to your team and also talk to that client in a way that makes everyone still feel confident in what they're doing without completely ruining the mood to help pivot that shift is so, so important. Strong communication, just showing up and caring.
I'm sure we've all been there. You're on like a daily or a call and someone's just, you know, we all have bad days, right? It's like, you don't know what's going on in someone's life. You have no idea. It could just be whatever, but you know, just showing up and caring and wanting to be there goes so far and can really help shift the whole mood of that team for the day too. You know, just.
Mack Garrison (27:26)
because it is balance
because you're trying to navigate client relationships and creatives. So you're kind this middle ground. It's like, look, I got to protect our creative team, but I also got to get what we need to get done for the client and kind of being able to massage both those directions where appropriate is important.
Kirsten (27:40)
Yeah, no, a thousand percent. it's, think being able to read, you know, a really good producer, I think, and NEP at a production too, can read and adjust how they interact with someone, right? So it's like, depending on which of my creative directors I'm talking to, you know, I might have a different tone or approach or, you
just how I come to them with something because I know that's how they do better with receiving information. I know that they need to talk it out versus like, you know, okay, let's just get into this. Same with clients too. It's like, you know, I tend to be a very, very emotive email or I love an exclamation mark, a smile. Sometimes I'm like, here's the...
Mack Garrison (28:15)
Exclamation mark
period exclamation mark period right you got to the balance in there
Kirsten (28:19)
I'm like, let's pull it back. We've got
like four smile faces in here. Let's just like tone it down. But there's some people I talk to where it's like, that's just not how they want to talk. And so, you know, I, I mirror that, you know, I try to make myself as approachable to them in their process. And I think to your point of being genuine and authentic with that, I'm not muting down who I am, but I'm also allowing them the space to show them that I can meet them there. And I'm not going to necessarily like make them uncomfortable either with how, you know, being like, if they don't want that energy.
Mack Garrison (28:34)
Mm.
No, a hundred percent.
Kirsten (28:49)
I'm gonna stop.
Mack Garrison (28:50)
feel like it's one of those things that, and we were talking a little bit about this, think right before we started recording that, you know, the best practice for becoming a good producer is just to continually put yourself in those situations where you have to navigate it. There isn't always a go-to solution. And sometimes you have to improvise and come up with something and set a standard yourself because you're not sure the answer. And that's okay. I think all about producing the people who really know what they're doing air quotes is
just because they've been in the space for a long time and they've had those different experiences. So it's a mixture of kind of reaching out and talking to other folks, being comfortable, having uncomfortable conversations. How do you practice that? It's probably just going through it, all the different scenarios and just trying to get, like you mentioned earlier, internships or get in early at a place to kind of learn from the people around you.
Kirsten (29:36)
Yeah, I know. mean, that's the best way to do it is just get that actual experience. And I will say, too, it's like I'm a little...
As I'm like, I love staff. The one benefit back to freelance is like, pop it around to a few places. You can see how a bunch of places do it. You can see maybe I'm better in a boutique setting versus a larger setting. Maybe I actually want to go into feature animation and don't want to do commercials at all. But I will say it's like that is the benefit of freelancing is a bit more of that. Seeing a wider net of styles and approaches.
Yeah, I mean with producing, it's like there's no secret handbook. There's no, you know, it's like, there's days where, mean, there probably every day, honestly, I call, it's myself managing EP and I've got a senior producer and another EP that I work with who I just like, I adore. They are the best. could not exist without them.
Mack Garrison (30:14)
Right.
You gotta have those charrettes,
be able to talk it out and work through it. Like how would you handle this, you know?
Kirsten (30:28)
yeah, my peeps, are just
like, but the number of days that I will come to them as they're managing AP and say, hey, I made this real and I feel like it's super wrong. What am I doing? And they're like, did you think about this? Like, that's how it should be. You know, it's like I am I have expertises, but I'm trusting my team around me to and also, you know, rely on what they're great at or what they might be seeing that I'm not thinking about. So I think, you know, it doesn't mean just, you know, closer to the top that I don't
have people. I go to those around me still.
Mack Garrison (31:00)
Oh yeah. 100
% having that little community around you, having some core people. Honestly, even my wife, Molly, I talk to her all the time about things. She's not even in my industry, you know, but it's always just good to get opinions on various things. think something that our industry, you know, just thinking about opinions and making decisions, it's, it can be a stressful place. I mean, it is a stressful industry. Stuff needs to be turned around really quick. There's last minute asks, there's tight deadlines and big pressures and big deliverables.
And so something that I've seen creep up more and more often is burnout. I think everyone in the creative space, whether you're a student or have been in this industry for 10 plus years has navigated burnout at some point in their life. I'm curious from your perspective, as that's creeped up in your life, how do you navigate that? Any tricks that you have found when you feel like, I'm feeling a bit burned out.
Kirsten (31:36)
Mm.
I mean, you know, I think you totally, it exists everywhere, every industry, I think too. You know, the big one and where I notice it, boundaries, you know, I feel like that's the thing that has become more of something that we all talk about, is like boundaries and setting them.
But yeah, you this is a job. You have a life outside of this, right? So it's twofold. You know, I work at an amazing studio with amazing people, but I also need to make space. And for me to do my job well, I need to have that clear head space. So if I don't, I can feel myself maybe getting shorter, maybe not thinking things through, maybe making rash decisions. so stepping away for a minute, you know, taking a mental health day where I just read a book, trying to get outside and go
Mack Garrison (32:29)
Mmm.
Kirsten (32:40)
on a walk, having to find working hours, not saying that you email me after 6.30 and I'm going to kick you to the curb. But it's like really trying to uphold that and also trying to.
Mack Garrison (32:47)
Right
Kirsten (32:52)
to look out at that for other people too. So it's like a bad habit I was getting into, right? It's like, I would be like, okay, I'm trying to be on Slack from nine to six, right? And then I would, as I've reevaluated my boundaries with a new baby, cause that's a whole other fun journey. I had boundaries, I was doing really great. And then, know, Daisy came into the scene and was like, yo, what's up mom? I'm a toddler, my rules. And I was like, cool, cool, cool. I got this. But I'm currently actually trying to re-figure
Mack Garrison (33:01)
Sure.
then Daisy came in and it was like, yeah, that was it. That's right.
Kirsten (33:22)
what are the boundaries that I need to show up for her but also to show up for my studio and for my people. know, something I found myself getting into the habit of because I was kind of shifting.
how I was working just to do, know, it's like, I joke, she's like my elder baby. She goes to bed at like 630. I'm just like, what is your wife? Like you're not even getting blue plate special. But you know, it's like, we're working at that time. So I have to step away to do, you know, I do step away to do dinner and bath time and get her ready for bed. And I come back and I was finding myself sending these like slacks like later. And I'd be like, Kirsten, you're breaking the rule that you set for yourself. Like, why are you slacking people at 9 p.m.? That is just straight rude. So I've been trying to really remind myself so I can like get it out to schedule my slacks.
Mack Garrison (33:39)
my gosh, I love that.
Yeah.
Kirsten (34:04)
which is such like a simple silly thing to say out loud, But, or schedule my emails. But I'm really trying, yeah.
Mack Garrison (34:04)
Mmm.
But it helps everybody, not only is it helping you
temper expectations of what should be done in a day, but you're also alleviating your team members. Because as their manager or boss, if they're getting a ping from you, I'm sure you're like, they could be in the middle of dinner, they see a ping come through, do I need to go respond that? So that planning is helping them as well.
Kirsten (34:19)
Absolutely.
Yeah, it's exactly. I remember what that's like, too, being like, I probably should respond to this email. And I think that's the other thing, too, is like, I say it a lot to, I feel like, way too many people. deadlines are important, right? It's like, there are times when we are delivering a job. And it needs to go out that day, because that's the day we've all chosen. there are media buys, and there are things like that, right? If we've promised we're going to post, we need to do that. We need to follow through. I'm not saying you should just disregard all that, but.
Mack Garrison (34:46)
Alright.
Kirsten (34:55)
what we are doing, you know, I'm not out here saving lives. So if, if, know, that slack can get answered the next day, it's probably nothing that pressing. If it really was, I would call you, would text you, you know? So I think it is giving a little bit of, of grace to yourself. That's another thing I'm really working on right now is giving myself grace. I feel like I try to give grace to others and I'm trying to give myself a bit more grace this year.
Mack Garrison (35:08)
Ha ha ha.
Mm-mm.
I love that.
reminds me of yeah, it reminds me of like some, Brene Brown quote, right? Where it's like, I think it was daring to lead. Maybe she speaks about how, look, you're in the arena, you're doing best. You're showing up. You know, we are, we are our own best critic. Or sometimes we lean into what the critics are saying. When at the end of the day, it's like, look, you can only do so much. You're doing the best you can with the information you have and you're moving things forward. You know, perfection, hippest progress. I'm doing my best and we got to give each of ourselves a little bit more grace accordingly. So I think that's really well said.
Kirsten (35:24)
and not be as hard on myself.
Mm-hmm.
Thank
Mack Garrison (35:54)
Well, let's see, we're coming up here on time. Maybe we can leave it here on this last question, just thinking about, you know, for those that maybe haven't been familiar with you or scholars work until this conversation and thinking about the Bash coming up, what could they expect from your talk at the Bash? What do you, you have any early inklings of what you might be hitting on?
Kirsten (36:14)
I know that's another I'm like, I have a lot of ideas that I need to Condense into an idea. But no, I mean I want to talk about I Do want to talk about the importance of our community and the voices in our community, you know I do want to talk about things like mental health and boundaries and How you can't be successful unless you are helping yourself first You know, I want to talk about just that larger connection as a whole
Mack Garrison (36:20)
haha
Kirsten (36:43)
across what we all do and how inviting all that in, inviting all these different people and just makes us better. know, it's like we've been talking about the this being a more crowded space right now, right? And it's like, it's interesting to see these studios that do amazing work, even like kind of like reinventing how they do it, you know, like Tendril and Builders Club and Future Deluxe creating this like merge thing. Hit this or like, you know, buck with giant ant or residency. It's like, you know, I think that
Mack Garrison (37:00)
Mmm.
Yeah.
Kirsten (37:12)
even though we compete, I think it's like helping others. And in terms of what you're gonna get, I think this is a pretty good example. I am a human to default. feel like I'm hopefully slightly fun, but also like, I don't know, what I just saw energy. mean, Mack could see me talk once before and I just, I...
I don't know, this is just who I am. I'm trying to be, I just try to be a genuine, authentic human. I'm a little bit out there in a fun way, I hope. And, you know, I hope you guys
Mack Garrison (37:42)
All right. I think that about does it here with Kirsten. So glad that we got to talk today. We got to chalk it up and talk today. This has been so fun. So pumped to have you at the Dash Bash this summer. And if you haven't gotten a ticket yet,
What are you waiting for? Now's the time. You know how great Scholar is. You know how great Kirsten is. You know how great the Dash Bash is. Let's do it. Let's get hanging out.
Kirsten (38:01)
Thanks, Mack. I'm super excited. I can't wait to see you guys in June!
Ringling College of Art & Design Demo Duel Interview
In this conversation, Mack Garrison discusses the Dash Bash Demo Duel: a unique competition designed to showcase the talents of motion design students from Ringling College of Art and Design that will now be used at the Bash to highlight the best in the industry to crown a single champion! Guests Ed Cheetham and Dante Rinaldi share insights into the evolution of motion design education, the structure and excitement of the Demo Duel, and the importance of presenting work in a supportive environment. They emphasize the value of teaching in enhancing creative skills and the positive impact of community support in the motion design industry.
Takeaways
The Demo Duel is a competitive platform for showcasing student work.
Motion design education has evolved significantly over the years.
Teaching enhances both the educator's and students' creative processes.
The Demo Duel aims to reduce the intimidation of presenting work.
Community support is crucial in the motion design industry.
The competition format is designed to be engaging and fun.
Students are encouraged to prepare their Demo reels for industry recruiters.
Memorable moments from past competitions highlight the excitement and camaraderie.
The Demo Duel is expanding beyond the college to larger events.
Participation in the Demo Duel boosts confidence and industry readiness.
Chapters
00:00 Introduction to the Demo Duel
03:49 The Evolution of Motion Design Education
07:47 Understanding the Demo Duel
10:42 The Competition Structure
15:21 Engaging the Audience
18:11 Memorable Moments from the Demo Duel
19:47 The Future of the Demo Duel
24:11 A New Chapter
Transcript:
Mack Garrison (00:00)
Hey, what's up everyone? Mack Garrison here, co-founder and director of Content of Dash, and we're back with another Dash Bash speaker series. And I'm so excited to be talking today about the founders, essentially, of what we're going to be launching at the Dash Bash this year, which is the Demo Duel I've got with me two guests who are fantastic, got all the deets for you on what the Demo Duel is. We have Ed Cheetham. He's the chair, Department of Motion Design at Ringling College of Art and Design.
Ed Cheetham (00:00)
Hey, what's up everyone? Mack Garrison here, co-founder and director of Content of Dash. And we're back with another Dash Dash speaker series. And I'm so excited to be talking today about the founders, essentially...
We have Ed Cheetham from the chair, Department of Motion Design, and...
Mack Garrison (00:26)
And then I've also got Dante Rinaldi who is the owner of Inferno VFX and so glad to have y'all hanging with me today.
Dante J Rinaldi (00:33)
Thanks,
Max. Great to be here.
Ed Cheetham (00:34)
Thank you Mack, it's great to talk to you again
Mack Garrison (00:36)
Absolutely.
Now I know both of you, we've been chatting a lot over the past year and excited to bring what has been y'all's baby of this Demo Duel to life at the Dash Bash. But before we get into that and before we get into the Demo Duel, maybe we can take it back a little ways. And Ed, I'll start with you. How did you get involved with Ringling College of Art and Design and really this motion design industry?
Ed Cheetham (00:58)
Well, it's really interesting because when I started teaching, I found out that there was a position open that Ringling was starting a computer animation department. And so I was actually at Century 3 at Universal Studios in Orlando and a friend of mine said, you should go and apply, that you'd be great at it. And so I went and I interviewed and I was actually the first faculty hired for the computer animation department. And that was in 91.
And so we started computer animation and what we were doing was more motion design because Toy Story hadn't been even out yet. So feature length film animation wasn't an option. So we were doing animated typography and title sequences and infographics. And then when Toy Story came out, we realized that in order to get our students to that level of character animation, we had to focus only on character.
Mack Garrison (01:35)
Right.
Ed Cheetham (01:51)
So we pushed aside all the stop motion and all the typography and all the experimentation and solely focused on narrative character. And so, you know, I stayed with that department and, you know, some of my students worked on the first Toy Story. yeah, yeah, it's true. And so, you know, it grew and it grew and, you it was actually called Computer Graphics initially and then.
Mack Garrison (02:06)
Wow, is that right? That's crazy.
Ed Cheetham (02:15)
You know, we realized we had to focus it and we changed the name to Computer Animation. And so I left in 98 and went back into the industry and, you know, I hired the current department head, Jim McCamble. So he owes me one and I guess I owe him one because what he did was when Ringling wanted to expand the offerings, he said, you need to bring Ed back and we need to have
Dante J Rinaldi (02:29)
I'm sure.
Ed Cheetham (02:38)
at that time what was called a broadcast design department. And so we had a lot of meetings and it was like, we can't call it broadcast design. That's way too focused. It's more motion design. And at some point they let us have our way. And in some small little way, I'd love to know that the department was kind of involved in the definition of this industry. Because we were calling that back in 2005.
Mack Garrison (03:01)
Mmm.
Ed Cheetham (03:05)
And so, you know, little by little what happened was that we defined what a motion design curriculum should be. And unlike, let's say, other schools that maybe have started with fine art and they're doing a little bit of animation, or if it's a, you know, a graphic design department that's doing a little bit of movement, we started this department solely focused on getting students into a motion design studio. So I remember saying,
Mack Garrison (03:13)
Mm.
Mm, I love that so much.
Ed Cheetham (03:34)
Yeah, I remember saying to myself, if I could get some graduates at Imaginary Forces, I did my job. And so now we have tons of students that have worked with Imaginary Forces. And it's just so impressive to see where they've gone and the kind of effect they've had in the industry already.
Mack Garrison (03:39)
That's great. That's a good place to start.
Well, we've had full-time staff from Ringling. We've had interns from Ringling, y'all, produce some amazingly talented students. And I think what's really cool, Ed is just how much the college has evolved over the years as motion design has evolved. know, it's, in my opinion, one of the fastest changing industries. It's an industry of change. We're constantly adapting new technologies, new forefronts of creative and what we're trying to push. And so I love that even as you considered what the name
the the name should be as you're moving through it kind of followed the industry, which is really great. Well, let me turn it over to you, Dante. I'd love to know a little bit about your background, know, owner of Inferno VFX, maybe tell us a little bit about that and ultimately how you got connected with Ed.
Dante J Rinaldi (04:24)
Sure.
then kind of like a journeyman, I kind of went to different industries. I was in the video game, AAA video game industry for a while, doing first person shooters on consoles, stuff like that. That was a lot of fun. And then transitioned into visual effects with companies like Digital Domain, and that was actually down in Florida. And as you know, visual effects is pretty nomadic. You you're kind of all over the world. And when the studio was closing up, we were getting ready to say, okay, going to California, going to...
Canada, wherever, Nepal, who knows where the jobs are, they send you. And Ed called me up and he's like, hey, have you ever considered teaching? And I thought, this is kind of cool. I could maybe do this for a semester or a year. And I was there for 10 years, because it's just such an experience. mean, working with Ed by itself is incredible. Working at Ringling, just incredible. The students are incredible. And I found that.
Mack Garrison (05:01)
Sure.
Ed Cheetham (05:12)
Maybe.
Mack Garrison (05:13)
Wow.
Dante J Rinaldi (05:25)
the education, you because I never taught before, teaching enhances your work and then your work enhances your teaching. So it just kept, you you kept leveling up, you know, and like, you know, staying ahead of the emerging tech and say, what's going on out there? What can we do to bring this in and help the next generation of students progress and be competitive and all that? Just an incredible experience. So.
We're still, we worked real close with that and wringling and just love the experience and now we're all together here.
Ed Cheetham (05:49)
close with that and wringling and just love the experience and now we're all together.
Mack Garrison (05:54)
I love that so much and I
love what you said Dante about how when you get into teaching it makes you a better creative I can relate to that so much because it really forces you to focus on what you're doing and why Right so many times we take for granted how much what I've just done it this way and then you start to really think like okay Why am I doing this way? How did I break it down to get to this point to think through doing that and so when you can get better about describing that
Dante J Rinaldi (06:08)
Yeah. Yeah.
Ed Cheetham (06:09)
Exactly.
Dante J Rinaldi (06:18)
Yeah. Yeah.
Mack Garrison (06:22)
Not only does it make you a better creator, it makes you better for clients because you can explain the relationship. All that stuff is fantastic.
Dante J Rinaldi (06:27)
yeah, to
know something you have to explain it and if you can't explain it you really don't know it. And your students are going to be like, hey, where am I? How did this happen? You got to know a lot. So it's great and it's a challenge and it's just a ton of fun.
Ed Cheetham (06:41)
the things that is really important that Dante's bringing up is that, like, one of the misconceptions that people have is like, go into teaching and I'm stepping out of the industry. And that is completely wrong. You're actually stepping right in the middle of the industry because, one, you do have to keep up on everything. And so now you're responsible to...
make sure all your students know as much as they possibly can so it's your job to go out into the industry learn more make more connections get better at what you do and then once again teach so you know it I find it interesting it's like oh yeah I'll retire it's like no no we don't want people who are retiring here we want people that want to do more in the industry so you know
Dante J Rinaldi (07:19)
No, it's the opposite.
Mack Garrison (07:21)
Hahaha
Dante J Rinaldi (07:23)
if i had known it was that
much work, i probably would've ch- no, i'm kidding, but...
Ed Cheetham (07:29)
It's different skill set though.
Dante J Rinaldi (07:30)
It is,
it is.
Mack Garrison (07:31)
No, I love it so much. That's fantastic. Well, let's let's pivot a little bit and let's get into what this podcast is about today, which is the Demo Duel and what the heck is it? So maybe at a high level, I get one of you at or Dante just to run us through what is the Demo.
Dante J Rinaldi (07:47)
Well, it's Ed's baby, why don't you do it,
Ed Cheetham (07:49)
Well, the way it started here is that we wanted to make sure that the students, when they left, were fully prepared to enter into the industry. That's why we do everything. That's why we have the courses that we have. That's why we have the experiences that we have. That's why we have the faculty that have the experience that can prepare these students. gosh, I don't know, is it 2000?
2008 maybe? No, no, no. We started in 2009. So 2011, 12. What we wanted to do was to make sure that the students had their work presentable for their interviews and all the recruiters that were coming to Ringling because we have amazing career services and they have recruiters coming to the campus all the time. And I found that there were a number of students that didn't have their Demo reels ready.
Mack Garrison (08:40)
You're like, what are you doing? Come on, let's get it. They're all coming here. What are you doing?
Ed Cheetham (08:40)
And in fact, they were a little... Exactly.
But they were shy and they think, I can't do it. I can't do it. And so in the senior year, we have a class called Production Studio in which we really give the students the experience of what it looks like and what it's like working in a production studio. So they have like five projects that they have to complete in 15 weeks. So that's three weeks of project. They get to choose from like 50 different briefs and...
You know, we've tried to prepare them so they're ready when they go out into the industry. And so we made this as part of our requirements, is that you have to have a Demo reel ready. So when the recruiters come, you're prepared. And so it's scary. It's really intimidating showing your work in front of people. It's not an easy situation to...
to kind of reveal your work and have people look at it. Exactly. And so I will say this department is very supportive and the students really do look out for each other and support each other and encourage each other. And so I felt it was safe enough to create this kind of competition where everybody has to have a Demo reel by a certain time. And so that's part of future proof.
Mack Garrison (09:33)
course especially to the people that are the ones that are gonna be hiring you the people that you've looked up to for all this time
Ed Cheetham (09:59)
was that we had to have our Demo reels done before that because we're having recruiters here. And so, we thought, well, how can we make it fun? And that's part of our goal is because take away the scariness, make it fun. And so we kind of put this framework in and it was like, how do we show all the reels together and kind of celebrate everybody's successes? Because I'll tell you, even,
Even the ones that get voted out in the first round, they're very impressive. They're really good. And so it's great for the students to show their work and you have all the audience clapping and cheering them on.
Mack Garrison (10:36)
I love that
you mentioned the rounds maybe explain so you know there's rounds there's competitions what's it kind of look like?
Ed Cheetham (10:42)
Yeah, it's kind of like a bracketed competition. tennis competitions where they have multiple brackets. So the first round is head-to-head competition of two students. And so we have about 30 students or 32 students. So there's 16 initial competitions. So we have one against two. We play number one, then we play number two, and then we give the audience like 20 seconds to vote online on their phone, whether they want
that whether they think number one or number two should go on. It's all happening live. And so they have their phone and they choose which one and then we show the results and that winner moves to the next round. So we see all the Demo reels in the first round. And then we, the next round instead of 16 competition, now there are eight. So we go through those eight again and then it's four and then we go through those four then it's two. Then we go through those two.
Mack Garrison (11:12)
So it's all happening live, right? People are watching this, okay.
Mmm.
Ed Cheetham (11:37)
And then we start to narrow down to those last two, and those last two define the winner and the runner-up for the Demo Duel.
Mack Garrison (11:44)
my
gosh, it's so exciting. And I will say I have been to a future proof. have seen this live and it is amazing competition. The cheering that goes on is unmatched. It's really cool. Let's see Dante. Maybe, maybe you can pull up a little visual and kind of walk us through some of the bracket and what some of the technical stuff starts to look like.
Dante J Rinaldi (12:00)
Absolutely.
All right. So yeah, so the big thing is, how do you, when we first did this game, it's like, how do you actually vote? Do you raise hands? That could be chaos and anarchy. So we got together and we said, well, maybe we could try and figure out how to do this online. So I went ahead and this was a great opportunity to kind of learn some coding and some scripting and some back end stuff.
So I'm just gonna sign in to the Demo Duel. Now we call it Demo Duel for this one, but we call the product, the overall product video Duel with online voting. And we could make this available later on. But let me just jump in and just to give you an indication of what we're looking at. So if I sign in, it's gonna say, oh, here we go. Here is one of our brackets. Now this is a work in progress, so the screens are final.
Ed Cheetham (12:47)
Oh, here we go. Here is one of our brackets. Now this is a work in progress. So the screens are final.
Dante J Rinaldi (12:53)
But this talks about DemoDuel 2024. This is kind of like what we were playing last year. 30 players and you could do anything you want to. And if we launch it, you're going to see a bunch of pirates and people are like, what the heck's with the pirates? This is an important note that Ed failed to mention. He dresses in full costume for every one of these
Mack Garrison (12:53)
Sure.
Ed Cheetham (12:53)
It talks about Demo Duel 2024. This is kind of like what we were playing last year. 30 players and you can do anything you want to. And if we launch it, you're to see a bunch of pirates. are like, what the heck's with the pirates? This is an important note that Ed failed to mention. It says in full costume for everyone in
Mack Garrison (13:05)
haha
Dante J Rinaldi (13:10)
events. you know, last year he was a pirate and the theme was pirates and people had to come as pirates and really enjoy it and have a lot of fun doing that. And I think he lost his voice with all the R's that he was yelling out.
Mack Garrison (13:11)
There we go.
Dante J Rinaldi (13:22)
you know and throwing candy so that was just uh... but on the point yeah kind of fun
Ed Cheetham (13:24)
Come on Dante!
Mack Garrison (13:26)
There we go, Ed, now we're talking.
I love that people are just as excited for the Demo Duel as we are for Ed's costume change and wardrobe change.
Dante J Rinaldi (13:31)
Yes, it's one of the highlights
Ed Cheetham (13:32)
Well,
Dante J Rinaldi (13:33)
of future proofed. Absolutely.
Ed Cheetham (13:35)
it's got to be funny though. It's got to be fun because it's so intimidating having your work being evaluated. So if we make it a party kind of environment, everyone kind of assumes that this is going to be fun and happy and joyful. And that's why there's candy being thrown. There's clapping and make it fun. And I think the students really appreciate that.
Dante J Rinaldi (13:52)
Yeah, absolutely.
Mack Garrison (13:54)
I love it.
Dante J Rinaldi (13:56)
So this is what they see when they walk in, whether the theme is pirates or musketeers, and we've done a bunch of things. They see this on the big humongous screen. I know, Mack, you're gonna have a huge screen when this is happening. Yes! Love it! Yes! So I mean, just seeing your work on a wall like that is just worth the price of admission. Just be like, my God, it was so big and so loud. So that automatically makes things a lot of fun.
Mack Garrison (14:07)
yeah, the Dash Bash is going to have a nice big 30 foot screen, highest resolution possible, great premium audio is going to be amazing.
Ed Cheetham (14:10)
Woo!
Mack Garrison (14:21)
Ha ha ha!
Ed Cheetham (14:22)
Hahaha
Dante J Rinaldi (14:26)
So when people walk in, they see the splash screen here and they get the QR code. Because the biggest thing about this game isn't that you just sit there and raise hands or applaud. You get to vote in real time on your phone and we count the votes. That's, think, one of the biggest parts of this is that it's accurate to the audience or whoever around the world is voting. And then the audience gets to actively participate in the game instead of just watching someone's game. So they...
go to the QR code, which basically gives them on their phone a ballot. And they can choose the ballots when it comes up A, B, C, whatever, just A and B really, as they go through. So once we jump in, we get to begin the Duel. And it can go through a little animation. Last year we did a little animation where it populated all the names in, randomly, and people were getting excited, I'm matching up with that person or that person.
Ed Cheetham (14:59)
And they can choose the ballads when it comes up A, B, C, whatever that is. Just A, B really. As they go through it. So once we jump in, we get to begin the duet. And it can go through a little animation. Last year we did a little animation where it populated all the names in randomly and people were getting excited, oh I'm matching up with that person or that person.
Dante J Rinaldi (15:21)
And then we kind of glitched the whole thing out like the whole thing broke, which freaked everybody out. And then it came in nice and loud. Boom,
Ed Cheetham (15:22)
And then we kind of glitched the whole thing out like the whole thing broke. Which freaked everybody out. And then it came in nice and loud.
Dante J Rinaldi (15:29)
boom, boom, boom, boom. Just kind of playing with people's emotions because we're kind of evil. We're evil like that. that all. Yeah, it switches up. Boom, right? So this is kind of like halfway through the Duel itself. And this was a Duel of 30 students and 32.
Mack Garrison (15:32)
I love it. I love it. It's great. Just people just as soon as people think they know who they're competing against it switches up on them.
Dante J Rinaldi (15:51)
So some people got free passes, but basically what the gist is is in every round You see who's there and you can click on you know the battle itself Which brings up the two people they get avatars they get to import their names their videos all that kind of stuff We play the videos which I'll just click real quick and hit escape
So that was super impressive. Everybody's like, yeah, that's amazing. We play video B over here.
Ed Cheetham (16:15)
Yeah, that's amazing. We played video B over here.
Dante J Rinaldi (16:22)
That was very nice. And now people have to vote and then they get a timer. you know, screens are a little temp right now, the fonts are different. But then we put on the music that's like, you know, the Jeopardy music and people are really getting tense and nervous, whatever the case may be. Because, you know, it's nerve wracking. Absolutely.
Ed Cheetham (16:24)
And now people say it has to vote and then they get a timer. know, screens are a little tense right now, the font are different. But then we put on the music that's like, you know, the Jeopardy music and people are really getting tense and nervous, whatever the case may be. You know, it's, it's, it's, it's more of a record. You know, I will,
Mack Garrison (16:36)
guys.
Of course.
Ed Cheetham (16:41)
I will say how important the audio is because we have our, our sound designer and audio engineer here, Kelly Warner, and he plays music while this is going on and doing the countdown.
Mack Garrison (16:44)
Mmm.
nice.
Dante J Rinaldi (16:53)
Yes,
yes, yeah.
Ed Cheetham (16:54)
and all the fun effects, which is really
fun. He really enhances the whole experience.
Dante J Rinaldi (16:59)
So once the timer is over and all that's customizable to your game, you want 20 seconds, you want five seconds, whatever the case may be, then the big thing is behind the scenes after everybody voted on their phone, on their ballot, and like for example, this is bracket 11, I'll go to bracket 11, and I like B, so I'll do that, there's B, it's success. You can't like spam the vote, it goes away. You can't, you can even.
Mack Garrison (17:16)
Cool.
Mmm, that's it.
One vote and it's done.
Dante J Rinaldi (17:23)
It's done. If I refresh my phone and be like, no, you already voted, know, that kind of a thing. Sorry. Already voted. So we try and keep the cheating to a minimum. So then when you view the results, it's in real time and it says, whoa, who won? Nicholas won. Hooray. And so it's it's absolutely accurate to that. You go back to the bracket, automatically adds Nicholas in there and the fight goes on and everyone goes back and turns. It is.
Ed Cheetham (17:32)
You
Mack Garrison (17:33)
haha
I love it. It's the March Madness style bracket for motion design.
It's so
Dante J Rinaldi (17:53)
It is,
Ed Cheetham (17:54)
That's it.
Mack Garrison (17:54)
great. I love it. What do you feel like has been your favorite moment from putting these on Ed and Dante? Like, is there something that resonates, like a particular competition or a win that sticks out? Is there something that you just really gravitate towards when you think about this?
Dante J Rinaldi (17:54)
yes.
Ed Cheetham (18:11)
I remember one. And it was a good thing that we had our guest judges because the last round, it was tied.
Dante J Rinaldi (18:19)
Remember this.
Mack Garrison (18:22)
my goodness.
Dante J Rinaldi (18:23)
There was
a lot of people voting. It wasn't like 10 people. Yeah. And it came up perfectly even and said, there's a tie. And the crowd went nuts.
Ed Cheetham (18:25)
Yeah, mean, there's at least 150 people voting and it was tied.
Mack Garrison (18:33)
Wow.
Ed Cheetham (18:35)
And so we had we have a lot of recruiters that like to come for that evening because they can see everybody's work all at once right and so we had We had the recruiters come in and we had to make them Choose and there were two people from the studio It was Hue and Cry and so we had two people from the studio and they both picked the each one and so we split the prize so
Mack Garrison (18:52)
Nice.
You split it the co
Dante J Rinaldi (18:58)
Yeah.
Mack Garrison (18:59)
champions was that
the first ever co-champion that y'all have had for the Demo Duel. my gosh, how fun
Ed Cheetham (19:01)
Good.
That was, yeah.
Dante J Rinaldi (19:06)
We have like a trophy. I don't know if the trophy's around, to keep inscribing the names in the years of who wins the Demo deal, because it's gotten really popular on campus. It's like, you know, all the future proof week, the convention week is exciting, but Ed's invention of this game is like the highlight and the kids just go nuts, you know.
Mack Garrison (19:25)
I love it. Well, let me ask you all this. So it clearly has been such a big thing for Ringling. It's grown. Everyone knows about it. Everyone gets excited about it. How does it feel to see this start to evolve? know, coming out now at the Bash, it's going to be happening this year here and hopefully in the future, maybe even more places. How do you all feel seeing it kind of evolve elsewhere?
Dante J Rinaldi (19:47)
man, this is just awesome. This is like you're raising your little kid and then they're going off to college and now everyone's gonna see how amazing you think your kid is and that kind of thing. And when you came to us and you were at, I think last year, and you're like, hey, this is fun, this is cool. Let's bring this to our thing. And we're like, absolutely. And to see this thing out into the wild, and I can't wait to see how the crowd likes it because there's just so many.
Mack Garrison (20:02)
This is fun, it's great stuff.
Dante J Rinaldi (20:13)
avenues to explore with this type of format. It doesn't have to be just student reels. Like for example, Mack what you're going to be doing with this is a variation and there's infinite variations that people can say, I like this one versus that one. So that's just so exciting to see.
Mack Garrison (20:29)
I love it And you know what's interesting to me, and this is gonna put the industry on blast a little bit, they better be prepared and be ready to submit some good reels because the students, as we now know, Ed is making them submit for the Demo Duel. You know, it's free to enter the Dash Bash Demo Duel. So I expect to see some good wrinkling reels in there. And I tell you, there's a lot of experience, a lot of practice working and cutting together a reel. And I know our industry sometimes...
Reels kind of become on the back burner when you're doing projects for clients and you got all this thing going on. like, I got to cut together something. So we could see a potential Ringling or other student champion who is focused on reels if the industry doesn't show up, which could be really, really exciting, you know, I'm calling them out, calling you out industry. So maybe Ed, you mentioned this earlier, but I'll toss it back to you. Why do you think someone should enter? Cause you're right. This,
Dante J Rinaldi (21:09)
Yeah, yeah, you're calling him out. You're calling him out.
Mack Garrison (21:22)
is gonna be put on blast, you are gonna be at the event in front of all your peers. What do you think's the biggest takeaway? Why do you think anyone watching this video should consider entering the Dash Bash Demo Duel?
Ed Cheetham (21:35)
Well, know, like I experienced with the students, I think we're our worst self-critics, right? We just don't think our work is good enough. But when you separate yourself from it and you put your work out there, you realize, I'm pretty damn good, right? And, you know, I think you see your work with fresh eyes and you appreciate your work. And I think that's really kind of nice when you're able to sit back and go,
Mack Garrison (21:51)
Hahaha.
Ed Cheetham (22:03)
You know, yeah, I know what all the problems are. I know what all the struggles were. But when you don't have that baggage and you just look at your work, you know, you realize, I did pretty good. I really like that. And you know, everybody's clapping. Everybody wants to cheer. Everybody wants to support. I mean, that's the thing about this motion design industry that just blows my mind, you know, is that everybody wants to help each other. They share information. They support one another. And so I think that you might think it's
it's kind of negative, you know, if you don't win. But you just think, you see the response and it's positive response and you you get your workout in front of so many people and you realize, yeah, I'm pretty good. And it's gonna spark interest in at least one person and you never know where that's gonna go, you know.
Mack Garrison (22:47)
100 % 100
it's well said. You know, I think there's a reminder for us all that we are like you mentioned our own self critics our own best self critic, right? We we we are critical. We want to put out the best of the best but I think something that's a good reminder for us all is that sometimes perfection inhibits progress. We got to keep things moving forward. Put yourself out there. Stop and pause and not what you didn't do but look at what you have done and look at the reel
Dante J Rinaldi (23:14)
Yeah.
Mack Garrison (23:16)
Super excited. Well, everyone, thanks so much for tuning in and listening today. I've been chatting with Ed Cheetham. He's the chair, Department of Motion Design, Ringling College of Art and Design. If you don't know Ringling, you need to know Ed and you need to know the work that their students are producing. We've also got Dante with us as well. He's the owner of Inferno VFX and they have put together an awesome platform for the Demo Duel, which is gonna be launching at the Dash Bash this summer. So on our website, we're gonna end up having the top 16 reels compete live at the Dash Bash this summer.
Dante J Rinaldi (23:17)
Okay.
Mack Garrison (23:45)
for your chance to be crowned the Dash Bash champion. This is open to students, it's open to professionals, you need to submit, not as a studio, this is on you. So this is all the individuals out there submitting and we cannot wait to see all these reels that are submitted. Ed, Dante, thanks so much for hanging with me today. Thank you so much for walking through the Demo Duel and we cannot see, cannot wait to see what it all looks like when it comes together this summer.
Dante J Rinaldi (23:48)
Woo!
Yes.
Ed Cheetham (24:04)
Thank you, Mack.
Dante J Rinaldi (24:07)
Awesome
awesome. Thanks buddy awesome being here
Ed Cheetham (24:08)
That's great. you.
Mack Garrison (24:10)
Yeah, thanks everyone.
Aradhana Bejarano Interview
In this conversation, Mack Garrison interviews Aradhana Baharano, co-founder of Little Labs, an animation studio based in California. They discuss Aradhana's journey into animation, her education at SCAD, the transition from a creative role to a business owner, and the challenges of starting a studio. Aradhana shares insights on networking, mentorship, and navigating client relationships, as well as her excitement for the upcoming Dash Bash conference where she will be speaking about her experiences and the rebellious spirit of artists.
Takeaways
Aradhana's early inspiration came from a book on animation she found in middle school.
Her education at SCAD exceeded her expectations and helped her grow as an artist.
Transitioning from a creative role to a business owner requires delegation and embracing new responsibilities.
Starting Little Labs was a leap of faith, but they managed to keep Disney as a client.
Networking and mentorship are crucial for success in the creative industry.
Contracts are essential to protect against misunderstandings with clients.
Approaching client relationships as collaborations can ease tensions and misunderstandings.
Aradhana finds inspiration in various artists and believes in the power of community.
The Dash Bash conference is an opportunity for networking and inspiration.
Aradhana's talk at the Dash Bash will focus on her journey and the rebellious nature of artists.
Chapters
00:00 Introduction to Aradhana Baharano and Little Labs
03:00 Early Inspirations and Journey into Animation
06:00 Education at SCAD and Its Impact
09:00 Transitioning from Creative to Business Owner
12:05 Starting Little Labs: The Leap of Faith
15:01 Networking and Finding Mentorship
18:02 Navigating Client Relationships and Challenges
20:59 Preparing for the Dash Bash Conference
Transcript:
Mack Garrison (00:00)
All right, what's up all you Dash Bashers? Thanks for tuning into another episode of our speaker series where we're getting to know the speakers that are coming to the Dash Bash. And I'm so excited to have one of those speakers with us today. Aradhana Bejarano with Little Labs, the amazing animation studio based out of California. They got over a decade of experience working on animated content and interactive experiences. She's collaborated with brands such as Disney, Netflix, Google, Snapchat.
Meta and Khan Academy for Kids. mean, these are all just amazing brands to work with. Aradhana thanks so much for hanging out with me and chatting with me today.
Aradhana Bejarano (00:34)
I'm excited to be here. Thanks for having me.
Mack Garrison (00:36)
You know, I
think one good place to start is always kind of at the beginning because it's fascinating to me how everyone kind of gets into motion design. It's such an amalgamation of different backgrounds and experiences. Maybe you take me back to some of those like early animation memories you had where you were like, this is interesting. Maybe, maybe this is a career I might want to pursue.
Aradhana Bejarano (00:53)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, so I grew up in India and...
my introduction to animation was sort of in middle school. I was very, I love cartoons, I love watching animated films, I was really a nerd and geek about it, but it was one day in my high school, my middle school, in the school library, I came across this book, animation book, and it was like the only animation book in the library, and it was like the one, it was just the one, yeah, it was just the one I stumbled on.
Mack Garrison (01:22)
It was just the one, you just read it over and over again.
Aradhana Bejarano (01:27)
the one I would read every day from that fourth on, it was perfectly placed for me. And I read it and I was like, like a light bulb went off in my head. was like, I can actually do this. I love drawing. And it was like the aha moment. And I wasn't necessarily surrounded by people who knew about this. And that book sort of sparked my imagination. And so then I started looking for more information and going to bookstores. And I found the Animation Survival Kit by Richard Williams.
Mack Garrison (01:52)
yeah, that's a classic.
got a copy in here with the office with me.
Aradhana Bejarano (01:53)
That's a classic idea. Yeah,
exactly. And it was overpriced in India, so I couldn't afford it at the time with my pocket money. And I didn't want to share it. I wasn't ready to share it with my family because they, again, so I would just visit the store every week and like read politely as much as I could without purchasing it. I own it now. I have a copy and everything. so that was just my earliest memory of like, this is something I can do.
Mack Garrison (02:00)
no.
Nice, nice.
Aradhana Bejarano (02:20)
It like, it's like almost perfectly like it was meant to happen. I had to stumble upon that book to like learn about it and like, yeah, and get into it.
Mack Garrison (02:25)
How fun.
Absolutely, serendipitous
that you found at the moment that you did. So it sounds like, know, there's not a, at least at the time, wasn't a ton of folks around you in your space and your network knew much about animation. So you're growing up, you're learning about this stuff. You have this passion for it. And I believe you went to SCAD, if I'm not mistaken, right? So was that a big reason that you were like, I need to go check out the US to kind of try to find a path into animation. That's what led you to SCAD?
Aradhana Bejarano (02:36)
Mm-hmm. Mm-mm.
No.
Yes, I might just get...
it
Exactly, yeah, there wasn't a ton of schools or colleges around me. There was sort of like media studies, but not really animation specifically. There was a lot of schools to teach you software. So I did all of that while I was in high school. I also learned Photoshop and all the tools, but not necessarily the foundation to anime. And then it sort of became my goal. I started looking at the US and other colleges just outside of India in general.
Mack Garrison (02:59)
Mmm.
Mmm.
Aradhana Bejarano (03:23)
and SCAD ended up being the one I was the most, like it felt like the right place for me and also needed to be able to afford it and they offered scholarships so yeah, yeah, yeah and they do. it's gorgeous, the campus is amazing, I love that.
Mack Garrison (03:31)
Sure. Hey, there you go. Good scholarship is also really helpful. I love scat. It's so pretty down there. mean, I've gone down a few times for commotion. I think they do a great event. Yeah. Have you have you been to Savannah
before before learning of scat? Did you have any idea about Savannah?
Aradhana Bejarano (03:47)
I've never been to the US before
I came here so yeah it was it was I was just all in mm-hmm yeah I just I remember I painted on my wall I'm gonna get scared that's how I told my parents like this is how I'm gonna get scared you know of course I mean it was it was hard like having your child move across like thousands of miles and they had never been to the US before and
Mack Garrison (03:51)
So you were all in, you were like, I'm going to school here, I'm immersing myself, amazing, amazing.
that's so fun.
Aradhana Bejarano (04:11)
all of that. It took a little bit of convincing, but they eventually agreed to me. And I got a scholarship as well, partial, not full, but that helped as well. yeah, just like, I'm going to do this. This is my dream. I'm going to work.
Mack Garrison (04:15)
I love it.
I love it. Do you feel like
did SCAD sort of live up to those expectations? did what you were expecting in school for animation, was that what you got? Did you get more than you expected? What was that college experience like, especially being sort of an international student coming to the US?
Aradhana Bejarano (04:34)
Mm-hmm.
For me, mean, anything was more than I expected, I mean, you know, it's almost, I mean, coming from a different country, like I didn't have those opportunities. So me coming in on my mindset was, this is amazing. I'm getting to learn what I need to learn. And I had the best experience there. really, it really did help me spread my wings and learn about myself as an artist, but also as a human being and being just such an international college. You know, you meet people from all over the world. It just, it just expands your horizons in all different ways.
Mack Garrison (04:46)
Hahaha.
Aradhana Bejarano (05:12)
So that was great and all the professors were like well most of them I wouldn't say all but like I think there were really amazing professors that helped guide me through the process and honestly college really is like what you make up in I feel like Everyone has the experience that they make of it and so it gave Scott really gave you the tools to explore and then you do what you do with that and Take it out in the world
Mack Garrison (05:13)
I love that.
I love that.
Aradhana Bejarano (05:38)
And so.
Mack Garrison (05:38)
You're a great case study for the university. They're gonna see this video and want a copy of it, because all these are amazing things. But you're right though, I think when you find good mentors that can help support you and guide you, I look back at my time at NC State University, and it sounds very similar to how you look back at SCAD. It's like you get out of it what you put in. So if there's any students listening to this interview we're talking about.
Aradhana Bejarano (05:42)
You
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Mack Garrison (06:02)
You know, it's lean in, talk to your professors, get to know them, ask people around you for that assistance and support because it seems like that sets you up on a great trajectory and of course, eventually in starting your own company with little labs.
Aradhana Bejarano (06:10)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, well, thank you. Yeah, and also, SCAD
so than a lot of the other colleges that I have noticed and interacting with other folks not having worked in the industry. Just like having those conversations like we do have like did have like classes where you're like working on your portfolio, working on your video, you have those conversations pretty early on. So you can you know you're learning all the foundations and basics. I did my undergrad not my post grad at SCAD and so a lot of it is just foundations but you know at some point teachers like and the professors do start talking to you but but how do
want to apply this in the professional world and those conversations really helped me figure out where I need to be. yeah. Yeah, no worry. Yeah, okay.
Mack Garrison (06:52)
I love it. That's fantastic. Well, I don't want to spoil too much from the actual presentation at the Dash Bash this summer. So I'm going to fast forward a little bit. Little Labs exists. You guys are crushing
it. You make some amazing work. In my opinion, it's some of the best that is out there in our space. What I'm really curious about is something that I've personally struggled with and I want to know if you've navigated that and it's being the business owner and less of the creative. How have you navigated this shift?
Aradhana Bejarano (07:06)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Mm.
Mack Garrison (07:18)
that I'm sure you're navigating from like the person who's making this stuff to doing this stuff to now being the entrepreneur. What's that been like?
Aradhana Bejarano (07:18)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
It's been a journey. think when we started off, was, you know, myself and my partner Camila who started the studio. We were doing everything. And it's been a journey like starting to delegate and hand off those things because those are not sustainable eventually. And I've sort of embraced this role of now my role at the studio is different. I'm the creative director and also the business owner. And I delegate everything else. So I am managing people a lot more than I used to. And actually now
embrace it and love it because that's my genius and that's where I'm at in my career at the moment and my my role is more to guide everybody and help them create the best work and so that's that's that's just what I've embraced and I feel like probably you have as well yeah yeah
Mack Garrison (08:11)
yeah, it's interesting because
like I think at a foundational level, once you are a designer and a creative, you were just naturally built around this idea of problem solving. And all you're doing when you're running a company is essentially trying to solve problems in creative ways. And so it's different problems, right? So you got these teams that need this information and you're trying to get them the right direction, say the right things to get them in the right place. Quick question for you with Camilo, your partner.
Aradhana Bejarano (08:20)
Mm-hmm.
Right, it's different problems. Yeah, right, yeah.
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Mack Garrison (08:37)
Have you all always
Aradhana Bejarano (08:37)
Mm-hmm.
Mack Garrison (08:37)
been collaborators? Have you always kind of worked together and this was a natural extension in starting the studio or how that all kind of come to fruition?
Aradhana Bejarano (08:42)
Yeah,
so it's kind of cliche like to meet your life partner at work in this industry because you work so much but that's how we actually met. We met at
Mack Garrison (08:48)
Yeah
Aradhana Bejarano (08:53)
Disney while I was working at Disney. And so we were always sort of working together in a sense. And then what sparked the little labs was you would start collaborating outside of work on things just, you we were having fun with because, you know, at work you do the work that you're told to do. And so you go home and explore. And so that just sparked like our collaboration efforts outside of the Disney work environment. And it just spin and grew into what the little labs is today.
Mack Garrison (09:08)
Sure, right, right.
How fun,
Aradhana Bejarano (09:21)
Yeah. Yeah.
Mack Garrison (09:21)
I love that. Well, it is, the natural progression, right? So you're working together all the time and it's like, well, we might as well just be partners then as well too. That's right. Yeah, exactly, exactly. Well, is with the labs part, what's interesting to me is like, you know, have your day-to-day job at Disney, you kind of have this labs piece where you all are collaborating on the side. Is their intentionality and calling little labs, I mean, is that an extension from that, you know?
Aradhana Bejarano (09:28)
Yeah, right? Yeah. And not with everybody. So yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
it is. Yeah. So the part little came from, know, we were working at large companies and corporations before and this was our space to be little and small.
and we love that, like that's us. And then the labs part was us experimenting outside of our day to day. And that just spin ball into the little labs in that we're, and it is in the sense of what we, who we are now as a team, as we've grown as well, we're always experimenting, always pushing our boundaries as a team and being playful. And that's where the roots of the name come in.
Mack Garrison (10:17)
Mmm.
Oh,
I love it. It's so fun. I'm always curious from folks who are, you know, creatives in house that then end up moving into starting their own agency or studio. Was there like a signature event or a project? I'm always curious. Like what, was it like, oh, this is maybe a little bit more than just a side project. Like maybe this is something we want to do full time.
Aradhana Bejarano (10:28)
Mm-hmm.
With us it was sort of like we took the leap honestly. We yeah, it was was sort of like we we just jumped off not knowing if we have a parachute or not and we're like I mean, yeah, we and we did you know thankful that we ended up having a parachute we were able to keep Disney as a client for us when we when we left the company But we honestly were just just ready to go on figure out our new path We it's sort of like I reached our goal
Mack Garrison (10:44)
Yeah, nice.
I love that analogy, that's great.
Aradhana Bejarano (11:09)
know, a dream, like we worked at Disney and it was like, what's next? What is the next challenge? And we were young enough, I guess, and naive enough to like take that, like, we can do it, yeah. That's right, yeah, exactly. Yeah.
Mack Garrison (11:18)
Yeah, we can do it, right? You know, not thinking about all the other pieces to it. That's so fun.
I feel like, you know, I would echo that same sentiment. You know, when we started Dash, we were both young and in our 20s and probably we're not thinking about all the other pieces that come with it. But let's say for someone who is, let's say there's a listener out there who has been working somewhere, they've been freelancing, and the idea of a studio or starting this collective sounds really, really good to them.
Aradhana Bejarano (11:34)
Right. Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Mack Garrison (11:46)
What's
a piece of advice that you might give them, either based on something you've learned now, you wish you could have done, or something you're really proud of? What would you share for someone thinking about starting their own shop?
Aradhana Bejarano (11:50)
Yeah.
I think making sure that you have the resources to delegate, I think that was like a biggest learning for us on our site that we started to burn out pretty quickly trying to tackle everything ourselves. So whether it's financial resources or just people you can lean into and ask questions, we didn't think that through when we started off. ended up, it was almost like we have a fire. We need to find somebody to talk to you about this. And so perhaps if you have like a network of people
Mack Garrison (12:21)
You
Aradhana Bejarano (12:25)
you can lean into to kind of help you troubleshoot, or whether it's consultants or things like that. And then of course like a client base, like knowing that you you have some sort of confidence in a client base, like you have maybe had conversations with before you jumped in, that could that could be helpful as well.
Mack Garrison (12:40)
Mm.
Yeah, I think you're
right. I mean, I look back and you know, there was definitely the jump in and commitment similar to you all and how we started, but we did have some work that we brought into it. Like we were kind of moonlighting on the side. We had something similar to like the little labs where we were doing some stuff from the work on the side. So it wasn't jumping into nothing. So I think that's important. You also hit on something else that I just, you know, profoundly believe in is mentorship. It's close friends in the space who have navigated it.
Aradhana Bejarano (12:54)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Mm. Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Mack Garrison (13:11)
think there's always a bit of a question mark on, you how do I find a mentor? How do I meet some of these other people? Did you go to a bunch of events? Like, how did you start to network and get to know folks who you had some of these tougher questions to ask?
Aradhana Bejarano (13:11)
Mm-hmm.
Right.
I wish I had a good answer. would have gone to that. I wish Dash Bash was there and I could have gone to that, right? Yeah, yeah. For us, it was slightly different because we were actually leaving a different industry and coming into motion design with this sort of like move. We were in the animation and interactive space. And so we really did just jump off the cliff hoping we'll land into a parachute. We were like sort of freelancing a little bit with studios in the LA area. So we had some of a network and that sort of
Mack Garrison (13:42)
Ha ha.
Cool, okay.
Aradhana Bejarano (13:50)
were able to build off of that but definitely I would recommend like networking and events and going to some of those either in your local community or area or conferences like Dash attending those.
Mack Garrison (14:02)
I think, you know, it's interesting
because I remember when I was getting out of school and I would imagine maybe, you you felt the same way. We were kind of intimidated. It's a big industry. Like, where do I even begin with this? And what I have learned in talking to folks like you and other creatives is just how welcoming everyone really is. And I think a lot of artists just don't recognize right away, just if you reach out, you know, there's a good chance that someone could respond to you.
Aradhana Bejarano (14:10)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Oh, 100%. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Mack Garrison (14:28)
So in that lens, know, I'm always curious just, you know, who are some of the various artists that inspire you? Who has inspired Little Labs over the years? Who are folks that you still are enamored by their work on day in, day out?
Aradhana Bejarano (14:36)
Mm-hmm.
Oh, such a hard question because I feel like, you know, we're all inspiring each other all the time. so there were definitely Ye House was a studio back, you know, I mean, Michigan. Yeah. And they were also husband and wife too. And so they always inspired us to take the leap. And we actually reached out to them and Camila was more connected to Michelle at the time as well. And we kind of were able to ask them questions and help out.
Mack Garrison (14:46)
Mm, sure.
yeah, up in Michigan, right? Yeah, yeah.
Aradhana Bejarano (15:11)
help us out and they were super inspiring to us over time. I mean, almost like everybody in the, even the work I see now, you know, inspires me a lot. On just an all time base, like any artist, like, you know, who's like following their path, being truthful to who they are always inspires me. looking back historically, like Frida Kahlo, Mary Blair, like those, those artists are always very empowering and inspiring for me. Yeah.
Mack Garrison (15:18)
yeah.
Mmm.
You know what's funny is I think
I actually reached out to Michelle at yet house at 1.2 I was randomly up in Romeo just which is a small town just north of Detroit and they're they're close by to it I forget the exact name of where they are, but they're up near there and I was like hey Michelle I'm in town I'd love to come see your studio and I don't know if they've ever had someone like properly come visit their studio So we tried to make it happen Didn't quite work out but they make some amazing work and enter just the nicest people in the world, too
Aradhana Bejarano (15:40)
Mm-hmm.
yeah.
Oh wow. They do. They are
so nice and we've just had a friendship. We've actually never met in person to this day and just we haven't had the opportunity. We either like missed each other or didn't couldn't couldn't make it work but one day. Yeah.
Mack Garrison (16:04)
really? that's so funny.
One day,
I know it's funny for anyone that's like not in our industry when they're like, oh, you're to go hang out with your internet friends. It's like, look, I promise they're really cool. I may not have met them in person, but they're the best. 100%, 100%. You know, I think one thing that you've definitely recognized probably is being a studio owner and I have as well is just our industry is kind of a wild uncertain place. You know, the longer you're in it, the more you can kind of see the volatile swings, the ups and downs.
Aradhana Bejarano (16:20)
They are, and they always are. I mean, it hasn't like disappointed me. So yeah,
Mack Garrison (16:41)
I would imagine that you've got some pretty good stories from over the years. I'm always curious on a good industry story, whether it was like a crazy project you finished, you didn't know you were gonna be able to get done or stuff that went totally off the rails. Do you have a good industry story you could share with folks today?
Aradhana Bejarano (16:45)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Yeah, plenty, but I'll stick to this one without naming names. We had this one client several years ago, right, when we were just starting out and they wanted like all this stuff from us. built, you know, they were launching this new brand. So we did a bunch of branding work, character work, even like toy design.
Mack Garrison (16:58)
Okay, six to one. Perfect, that sounds good.
Aradhana Bejarano (17:15)
We were just starting off as a studio and contracts were not, we weren't like masters of contracts, but because a colleague had recommended us, we sort of slipped on kind of getting the contracts really signed off because they were kind of skirting the issue. were like, oh, we'll get it done. they were like, know, business is always done with a handshake, you know, and which it is, but it was one of those moments which looking back, I'm like, why did we go through with this? But because they were highly recommended.
Mack Garrison (17:26)
Mmm.
boy.
Sure.
Aradhana Bejarano (17:45)
by a colleague we trusted we went ahead and did all this work delivered it and when it came time to payment they were like well you didn't really meet our expectations and and and all throughout we got all this good feedback thankfully we had all of the emails and things to kind of prove that there wasn't a miss because there wasn't really a miss or ever communicated to us that
Mack Garrison (17:54)
no.
Aradhana Bejarano (18:06)
that we had not met their expectations. It all ended up sorting out at the end, but it was a huge learning for us to make sure you have your contracts and stuff all in a row. So it was a little bit our fault, but also, you do kind of come into these situations sometimes where clients want to start a project without signing off a contract. And it's like, as a business owner, you have to make those decisions of how do you make that?
Mack Garrison (18:08)
Right, right.
gosh.
Ugh.
Oh, 100%. Like even as you're telling this story right now,
I'm sitting here thinking about one of our early missteps was the same deal. was like, didn't quite have everything outlined in the contract, had a client that really didn't want to pay us at the end. I think the way that we finally got paid, I'm not proud of this, but I basically called this person every day and was leaving messages that I'm going to call you every day until you pay this. And I think we negotiated.
Aradhana Bejarano (18:38)
you
Mm. Mm. Mm.
you
Mack Garrison (18:56)
a 70 % payment or something like that. I was like, look, if you pay 70%, I'll never call you or talk to you ever again. So, you just, yeah. And I think it's also a good reminder though too, is like even in the lens of the story, y'all were doing everything right. You were doing everything by the books for the most part. You glazed over this little piece and there was still kind of a little bit of a friction point. And I think that's a good reminder for creatives out there that if you're ever feeling like, golly, it's what did I do wrong? A lot of times you are doing it right. And sometimes this stuff just bubbles up, right?
Aradhana Bejarano (19:02)
Right, yeah, he's just chasing clients to make payments.
Mm.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm. Right.
100%. And a lot of times you're working with clients who are not maybe in the industry and know how things are done. And a lot of it becomes having the confidence to educate or like standing your ground on what are your boundaries and limitations.
Mack Garrison (19:40)
You know,
this opens the door to a good question, I think, is how do you and Camilo react or how do you handle a situation that maybe feels tense? Like if something comes up and the client's like, I don't know, maybe they're unhappy about something or something was miscommunicated, but you can tell there's those moments every now and then where it's like, ooh, this doesn't quite feel right. Do y'all have like a playbook or something that y'all do when those situations arrive? What's kind of like your go-to solve for kind of easing some of that burden?
Aradhana Bejarano (19:52)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Usually it's like taking a breath and just hopping on a call and just leaning things out, leaning into our producer as well and like helping them come in. So we're really coming in as a team to service the client at the end of the day and provide the best solution. So we always start with that and we lay out that, you know, we're here to do great work. We're here to navigate this together. And we always look at our clients as collaborators.
Mack Garrison (20:21)
Hmm.
Aradhana Bejarano (20:31)
So that's really the mindset we go into with every meeting and so as friction comes up or there's misunderstandings we we always approach the conversation with that mindset and So far clients are usually very receptive to that because you're wanting to work together Honestly, yeah
Mack Garrison (20:46)
Yeah, 100%. I love that so much. I mean, it really is.
There's kind of an age old stereotype, think, you know, in creative versus clients. But really, to your point, if you think about folks as collaborators, as partners, then when there is a misunderstanding, it just becomes easier to have those conversations. So yeah, I love that a lot. Go ahead. Yeah.
Aradhana Bejarano (20:53)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. And I will say one thing.
There might be a client that maybe is not responsive to that. And in that case, you do have to set your boundaries. And we're like, this is hard. But we honestly, 99.9 % of the times, we haven't had those kind of situations because we come with that mindset. Mm-hmm.
Mack Garrison (21:20)
Which is good. And I think like there's
also to the latter point you said is like, you you got to put your foot down every now and then it's, you know, you should feel confident in decisions you make. You know, I think we all are sometimes a little bit hard on ourselves, you know, wish we should have handled this differently or we could have, you know, in this instance of that particular example, we should have done the contract this way. You know, one of the nice things about making these mistakes that you and I have made is that we learn from them and you never do them again, right? You know, no one's perfect. You figure it out, you kind of move forward, which is good stuff.
Aradhana Bejarano (21:26)
Mm. Mm.
Right.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Right, yeah exactly.
Mack Garrison (21:48)
So let me ask you this, you're coming to Raleigh later this summer, what do you think are you most excited about for the conference? Is it getting up on stage? Is it meeting other people? I'm curious to know what gets you excited about the bash.
Aradhana Bejarano (21:59)
I'm just, you know, in the past years I've realized the benefits like of being at a networking event such as Dash and just the connections and relationships you make. So I'm really excited to meet people and hear the other speakers. Of course, I will be speaking as well, which I'm excited for. But more than anything, just every conference that I go to, I leave just feeling so inspired and empowered and looking forward to what I can learn from that experience.
Mack Garrison (22:05)
yeah.
Sure, sure.
I love that. And I echo that same sentiment.
know, I think conferences are one of the few opportunities where we mentioned earlier, we get together with all our internet friends to hang out and talk shop with people who know about it, which is really good. Well, let me let me do this. What do you think if you're giving a pitch to someone who has who is unfamiliar with little labs and you and your work, what would the pitch be on why they should come see you at the bash?
Aradhana Bejarano (22:27)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm that too, right? Yeah
Mm-hmm.
Sure, so my journey has been a lot about rebellion in one way or the other based on my cultural upbringing and coming to the United States and being where I'm at today. So part of my talk will be navigating that through my experience and I'm excited to share that. I think as artists, we're all sort of rebellious in one way or the other. And I talk a little bit about how I...
I transfer that into the work I do today. So I'm excited to share that and yeah.
Mack Garrison (23:17)
I love it. Love a good little rebellion in the art world. It's going to be great. We're super excited to have you. Just want to give a quick shout out and thank you to everyone who tuned in today. Aradhana Bejarano, thank you so much for the little labs and join us at the Dash Bash. If you haven't gotten a ticket yet, folks, and you're listening to this, what are you doing? Dash Bash is from June 11th through 13th, 2025. It's going to be right here in my hometown of Raleigh, North Carolina. It's big enough where there's always something to...
Aradhana Bejarano (23:20)
Yeah.
Mack Garrison (23:42)
and it's small enough where you run to folks around town and you'll definitely run into a lot of animators and motion designers here that weekend. So if you haven't got a ticket, grab it now. Thanks so much for joining us today, Aradhana, and so excited to have you here shortly with Little Labs. It's gonna be great.
Aradhana Bejarano (23:56)
Looking forward to it. Again, thank you for having me. Can't wait to see you and everybody else.
Mack Garrison (24:01)
Same, sounds good.
Thanks everyone.